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Thread: At the light waiting and waiting and waiting and...

  1. #16
    otherwise
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    Someone mentioned the mast-mounted sensors
    are infrared optical. They should pick up the heat from the
    headlamp, I would think.
    mXa

  2. #17
    Douglas Williams
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercindy View Post
    But when it does happen I let it go through one complete cycle, then if it skips me a second time I'll just go when its clear.

    The law was recently changed in NC to address this problem. This is actually the legal way to clear an intersection when the vehicle can't trip the light. I have also started reporting nonresponsive signals to the appropriate agency. Some can be adjusted, some can't. A signal that doesn't respond to a motorcycle is legally defined as malfunctioning , but only for the affected motorcyclist.
    Sent from a Galaxy, far, far away

  3. #18
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 83014 View Post
    The law was recently changed in NC to address this problem. This is actually the legal way to clear an intersection when the vehicle can't trip the light. I have also started reporting nonresponsive signals to the appropriate agency. Some can be adjusted, some can't. A signal that doesn't respond to a motorcycle is legally defined as malfunctioning , but only for the affected motorcyclist.
    This truly amuses me. The law in virtually all states, for a very long time has permitted this under the general rule: if a signal malfunctions treat it like a 4-way stop. I learned that back in Driver's Ed and that was 1959.

    But since both the LEOs and the general public seem to have trouble understanding the general rule, legislatures have to spell it out in gory detail: if the signal doesn't detect a two wheeled self propelled vehicle, that condition is hereby defined to qualify as a malfunction; and the operator of the such vehicle is entitled to follow the general rule of treat it as a 4-way stop, except to further clarify they probably have to specify you are supposed to wait x number of cycles or until a full moon whichever comes first, and then must proceed only when the nearest vehicle is at least 1,322 feet distant, measured on the roadway centerline or its arc tangent if curved, or has red fenders. And then we wonder why we have to have so many laws.

    We have met the enemy, it is us!! For sure!
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  4. #19
    Registered User Chris_d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holly View Post
    My 250 Virago often didn't trigger the lights, so I treated them as 4-way stops after a reasonable wait time. OTOH, the bike didn't trigger the cameras which are used to bill you on the 407 which bypasses Toronto and is likely the most expensive toll road in the world. I'm going to miss that bike when the bills arrive this year!
    Holly, I'm sure the 407 entry and exit ramps have cameras that take a pic of your plate. Your lack of toll bills is due to:
    a) a damaged, missing or obscured rear plate
    b) you exit the ramp at warp speed and well over to the left or right of a lane

    Cheers, Chris

  5. #20
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    This truly amuses me. The law in virtually all states, for a very long time has permitted this under the general rule: if a signal malfunctions treat it like a 4-way stop. I learned that back in Driver's Ed and that was 1959.

    But since both the LEOs and the general public seem to have trouble understanding the general rule, legislatures have to spell it out in gory detail: if the signal doesn't detect a two wheeled self propelled vehicle, that condition is hereby defined to qualify as a malfunction; and the operator of the such vehicle is entitled to follow the general rule of treat it as a 4-way stop, except to further clarify they probably have to specify you are supposed to wait x number of cycles or until a full moon whichever comes first, and then must proceed only when the nearest vehicle is at least 1,322 feet distant, measured on the roadway centerline or its arc tangent if curved, or has red fenders. And then we wonder why we have to have so many laws.

    We have met the enemy, it is us!! For sure!
    Greetings, Paul. Not picking a fight here (great respect for your mechanical talent), but......

    Things have progressed (or regressed - point of view, I suppose) since your 1959 driver education.

    There is no 'general rule' that I am aware of, and the 'if it didn't detect me, I can treat it as a four-way stop' most certainly will get you busted in Wisconsin, and many other states.

    That 'logic' is a bit too convuluted - sort of like a 'jailhouse lawyer,' as we used to refer to prisoners who were sure they knew the law better than 'us LEO's.'

    I don't know every nook and crany of our legal system - no one does, but being ignored by the variable sensitivity of a signal loop is not carte blanche permission to 'jump' to a different, more convinient interpretation at an intersection.

    I urge you not to be that confident, should your bike not trip a sensor. When the Judge can't find this 'general rule,' your day could end badly.

    Afterall, if you're locked up, how will we get all that great advice on maintaining our Beemers?!
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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  6. #21
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


    Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

    I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...
    Steve Henson
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris_d View Post
    Holly, I'm sure the 407 entry and exit ramps have cameras that take a pic of your plate. Your lack of toll bills is due to:
    a) a damaged, missing or obscured rear plate
    b) you exit the ramp at warp speed and well over to the left or right of a lane

    Cheers, Chris
    Chris, if I can't get a clear shot at the cameras, without any cages going through at the same time, I do get a bill. They can see my plate, but the 250 alone doesn't trigger the cameras. Every other bike I've taken on the 407 does get billed.

    Warp speed just doesn't happen on a 250cc bike (130 kph is the best I have managed.) I tried that bit about going well over to the side once. Have you seen all the crap on the sides? Geez, it is an expensive toll road, but not nearly as expensive as new tires. Never tried that again.
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  8. #23
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwald View Post
    Greetings, Paul. Not picking a fight here (great respect for your mechanical talent), but......

    Things have progressed (or regressed - point of view, I suppose) since your 1959 driver education.

    There is no 'general rule' that I am aware of, and the 'if it didn't detect me, I can treat it as a four-way stop' most certainly will get you busted in Wisconsin, and many other states.

    That 'logic' is a bit too convuluted - sort of like a 'jailhouse lawyer,' as we used to refer to prisoners who were sure they knew the law better than 'us LEO's.'

    I don't know every nook and crany of our legal system - no one does, but being ignored by the variable sensitivity of a signal loop is not carte blanche permission to 'jump' to a different, more convinient interpretation at an intersection.

    I urge you not to be that confident, should your bike not trip a sensor. When the Judge can't find this 'general rule,' your day could end badly.

    Afterall, if you're locked up, how will we get all that great advice on maintaining our Beemers?!
    So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  9. #24
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Never mind. I found what Wisconsin law specifically says about this situation.

    "4. Notwithstanding subd. 1., a motorcycle, moped, motor
    bicycle, or bicycle facing a red signal at an intersection may, after
    stopping as required under subd. 1. for not less than 45 seconds,
    proceed cautiously through the intersection before the signal turns
    green if no other vehicles are present at the intersection to actuate
    the signal and the operator of the motorcycle, moped, motor
    bicycle, or bicycle reasonably believes the signal is vehicle actuated.
    The operator of a motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle
    proceeding through a red signal under this subdivision
    shall yield the right−of−way to any vehicular traffic, pedestrian,
    bicyclist, or rider of an electric personal assistive mobility device
    proceeding through a green signal at the intersection or lawfully
    within a crosswalk or using the intersection.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  10. #25
    MAYLETT
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    That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

    http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

    It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation.

  11. #26
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?
    Paul - glad to see you were able to access our statute about how a motorcyclist can 'option thru' a traffic control signal if his/her presence does not activate a loop sensor. I wish every state put this tool in our riding tool boxes.

    As for a response to your many scenarios quoted above, this is a case of apples and oranges.

    All of the 'malfunctions' you describe require innovative (and responsible) action on the part of a motorist, or the prompt response of a traffic officer to restore order.

    The loop sensor not detecting your motorcycle is not a malfunction, but rather a sensitivity issue, for which you can petition local government for resolution.

    Anyone self-declaring such an intersection as 'malfunctioning' could result in their day ending badly.

    Ride Safe.
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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  12. #27
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maylett View Post
    That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

    http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

    It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation.
    Please do so!

    If you wish, you may include my name as a contact for any legislator to discuss this issue with me.

    As a retired law enforcement professional and current MSF instructor, I would be glad to enlighten him/her as to the practicality and track record of this statute.
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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  13. #28
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


    Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

    I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...
    Please see my responses to Paul and Maylett.

    Petition your state legislature to pass a law similar to Wisconsin - your gripes are legit, and you deserve equal consideration for what you ride!
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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  14. #29
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Kevin, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

    I reluctantly agree with Kevin. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

    If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

    Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

    What a shame!

    Edit: I corrected Kevin's name. I previously said Ken. My bad.
    Last edited by PGlaves; 05-20-2010 at 06:52 PM.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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  15. #30
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Ken, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

    I reluctantly agree with Ken. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

    If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

    Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

    What a shame!

    Ultimately, each of us must decide how to handle this occasional annoyance. I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that. Hope the future holds better experiences.


    As for sitting there until you starve, I would hope that when an LEO does happen along, he shares some of his donuts with you out of compassion!
    Kevin Greenwald - Touring Tips Editor
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