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Thread: Your speed in the twisties

  1. #91
    Registered User redclfco's Avatar
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    To he$l with the squirrels

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesdunn View Post
    I was a ski racer and it involves many of the same physics as motorcycle riding or racing. When I raced I raced, when I practiced I focused on skills. The practice made me a capable racer. Don't recall reading too many books ; I did have quite a lot of coaching and became a coach and teacher myself. The experience I had from practice was how I was able to "turn it on" when race day arrived.
    I got to thinking about Mr. Dunn's post in this thread, comparing skiing and riding a bike in the twisties being the same; comparing the two does bring out some specifics that once visualized, could assist someone learning to carve twisties on asphalt.

    Skiers, like bikers come in unlimited varieties, but when it comes to coming down a narrow trail, where big sweepers are not possible, two ways to do it;

    Very cautious, sliding the rear of the ski around each turn, allowing the inertia of the hill to slow you every turn. After each turn is executed, the ski tips end up sideways, and almost pointing uphill! This type of beginner sking is unstable, unpredictable due to the w-i-d-e turn causing an about face on each turn.

    The experienced skier will follow the proper, faster and infinitely more fun way to ski the twisties; keep the tips pointed down the slope, and tilt the edge of the ski horizontally into the hill on each turn, like your skis are a sharp knife, cutting your turn with the precision of a surgeon into the flesh. The faster and steeper the hill, the deeper you stick the blade in the snow, allowing you to control a series of small turns, which the inertia pushes you into each turn. Put aside the poles for a minute, because I don't know how they would factor into this comparison, and we all knows the importance of a pole plant. right?

    I followed a guy one time on what I assume was a new ride (er) and watched him turn away from the fall line of the road on each turn, continually set a line to turn (carve) abort, go straight increase speed by inertia, tap the brakes and find another line, again turning his whole body (and bike) sideways to the fall line; it was obvious he was struggling to keep this Harley looking Yamaha out of trouble at that speed, so I backed off to give him the ability to slow down, hope he did.

    Each turn he made was not looking into the fall, was not anticipating the next turn where he wanted to go, checking his heavy hand on the throttle with his brakes (danger here, man) and appeared to be looking away from the turn he was executing.

    He very well may have been watching the speed versus feeling the inertia+ speed, and instinctively knowing how much throttle produced a controllable fall (inertia).His bike spent more time sideways in the road versus pointing the nose like the ski tips) down the road where he wanted to go.

    The fun comes in finding the very limit of controllable speed, coming right up to that limit, then find ways to involve a third dimension/ the lean where the speed can be increased even further!

    That's what separates the men from the boys, IMHO, that is. And I announce here that there are many, many who have a better handle on this "Lean" dimension in carving up the twisties; I'm certainly not afraid of the twisties being born a raised in the foothills of Colorado, but I do know and respect my limits, and more importantly, the limit of the road...dirt, branches, squirrel guts, pot holes keep me from truly even approaching "the edge" of speed by increasing the lean past a certain point. I am not risking that edge as I once did many years ago. No speedo needed, just years of letting my brain go on auto pilot and make the decision before I enter each turn as to how much inertia I throttle up into each turn.

    I know many feel that to ride a fine engineered machine like a BMW and not seek that limit/that edge is sacrilegious to BMW, but to me? I've tumbled off my mount a time or two in my lifetime by pushig the limits, and on each turn, have made a choice to ride with the boys, with a degree of safety. I am one of the boys. Let the Men fly by; to hell with the squirrels!

  2. #92
    angysdad
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    I use my Canada/USA magical conversion kit!
    If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
    It seems to work for me.

  3. #93
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Really? And please check post #89

    Quote Originally Posted by angysdad View Post
    I use my Canada/USA magical conversion kit!
    If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
    It seems to work for me.
    You seem to have missed posts by myself and others. In many, maybe most, corners 50 mph (80 kmp) is indeed safe. BUT NOT ALL. There are bad curve signs where that speed will put you in the ditch if not off a cliff or else in the oncoming lane, if it is a right curve.

    I believe it is exactly this sort of response which moderators fear when considering setting up a new "riding safely" forum. I think it is exactly the sort of response I'm giving you that should allay their fears that mis-information will not go long unchallenged.

    Please do not take this as a personal attack. Come back to Canada on your bike and enjoy our great country. But realize that those suggested speeds in curves, as translated to safe bike speed, can vary on the same road.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  4. #94
    Registered User RINTY's Avatar
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    ...[ski racing] involves many of the same physics as motorcycling...jamesdunn
    +1.

    I think it's that "three dimensional" aspect, as Kbasa puts it.
    Rinty

    "When you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there."

  5. #95
    "Running Out The Clock" grafikfeat's Avatar
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    Ever see anyone texting while skiing?
    "Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting."

  6. #96
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel"


    The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.

  7. #97
    "Running Out The Clock" grafikfeat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel"
    Then there are times I turn around and ride elsewhere.

    Riding on the Moon.

    On the two wheeler anyway...
    "Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting."

  8. #98
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrafikFeat View Post
    Then there are times I turn around and ride elsewhere.

    Riding on the Moon.

    On the two wheeler anyway...
    No kidding

    One of the most imporaant lessons I learned ocean kayaking, I apply to all my activities, and tell my MSF students, is knowing when to "stay on the beach" .

    I have turned around, or stopped, many a time, both on and off road, due to conditions that I felt were beyond me at that moment.

  9. #99
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    Perhaps the most important lesson in all of this is that road signs aren't very reliable at telling you how to ride. If you want to survive the ride, you must maintain your awareness of what the road and other users are doing, and make appropriate adjustments.

    I'll have to dig out that photo of a curve sign, where the upper bolt on the sign either dropped off, or was "encouraged" to drop off, and the sign swiveled down so it is pointing in the opposite direction.

    pmdave

  10. #100
    "Running Out The Clock" grafikfeat's Avatar
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    Relying on anything other than yourself for safety is just plain silly.

    "Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting."

  11. #101
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel"


    The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.
    Well said! I used to ride quite a bit with a guy who was about equal to me on twisty roads. We always left several seconds between the bikes, took turns leading, and neither usually felt either pushed or held back.

    One day in Washington state (great day, great road) my friend was leading, riding below the speed limit and I wanted to GO. He slowed more and waved me past to have my fun. I pulled over where the road forked and 5 minutes later he showed up.

    "What happened?" "My mind was on other things and decided to pull over until I could get it back on riding." I thought that was one of the wisest things any rider has ever said to me.

    None of us are always "on our game." Since then I have occasionally pulled over but even more often slowed down until I could again focus on the task at hand.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  12. #102
    Registered User RINTY's Avatar
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    ...the road east of Cherryville...contains the curves, which are deceptively marked...BCKRIDER
    Yes, that is a challenging section.

    ...a deer darted out of the bushes...there...
    I had a near collision with one in the same area; it just jumped out of the bushes in front of me. I've been told that the area between Monashee Pass and Cherryville is full of deer.

    I really misjudged it...Bogthebasher
    I've blown a number of corners, on both highways, and I've been very lucky.
    Rinty

    "When you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there."

  13. #103
    angysdad
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    ref post 95-96

    Doug,

    I did not take your comments as any sort of attack.
    I should have elaborated. For ME, as a general mesure of the speed that I can handle in the curve, I found posted km/h=mph. This is just a rule of thumb and not any sort of universal truth. It has served me well through 31 active seasons of riding. I rarely base my speed (strait or curve) on the posted limit. I use any posted limit as a suggestion and ride in my comfort zone. I use my judgement , my realistic evaluation of my own skills as well as road conditions to adjust speed. I also don't get ovely hung-up on what the speedometer says.
    I appreciate your concerns for others safety.
    As for your invitation to'Come back to Canada on your bike and and enjoy our great country', I agree that Canada is a great country. There is no need to 'come back', since last time I checked, Qu?®bec was still part of Canada!!!
    speed safely
    Denis

  14. #104
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    There is no need to 'come back', since last time I checked, Qu?®bec was still part of Canada!!!
    speed safely
    Denis[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, Denis! Forgot to check where you are from, which is really pretty dumb since my bike also reads in miles per hour!
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  15. #105
    angysdad
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    My last two bikes came from the states, so are in mph. I run a K100 as well. Mines an '85 EML sidecar rig.
    Obey the laws of physics,
    Denis

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