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Thread: Your speed in the twisties

  1. #61
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    And, since someone asked about driving a Spyder (2F 1R trike) let's compare cornering on a Spyder to cornering on a bike.

    First, there is almost no risk of falling down, so even a timid old codger like me can be confident that there won't be a sudden crash precipitated by a diesel oil spill, or gravel on the pavement, or horse poop, or whatever. What that really means is that I can pretty much ignore the surface and concentrate on traffic and driving.

    I do hang off much more when driving a three wheeler through curves than when riding a bike. Hanging off helps reduce steering effort, and helps keep the inside wheel on the ground. That helps keep the stability computer from reducing power. Since the brakes help control roll, I may drag the brakes slightly in curves while sneaking on more throttle. Of course, this will drive a following biker to distraction, since the brake lights will be flashing on-off during the corner. But I also brake in corners when riding a two wheeler--whenever I don't like the "smell" of the situation. For instance, I've braked for quite a few trees in the ditch that looked like antlers.

    But, whatever the machine I'm driving/riding, I limit my speed to sight distance. If I can't make a full stop within my sight distance, I'm hanging it out too far. It's not that there are more hazards located in turns, but that they are often hidden from view by the shape of the rocks and greenery. So, the hazards may seem to "pop into view" when I'm rounding a corner, but of course they were there all along. It makes me very nervous to see riders zipping around blind turns at speeds that I know are about twice too fast for stopping.

    I'm not sure exactly how the Spyder ABS reacts with the Stability Control System and Steering System. But I have no fear of aggressive braking at any time. I believe the SCS gets wheel speed from the ABS pickups, but works in a different way. If the ABS determines a tire is losing traction, it releases brake pressure in pulses just like any ABS system. But if the SCS determines a wheel is getting light, it starts reducing engine power. The power steering system is a mystery. It's speed sensitive, but there is some other relationship to the SCS. Stability control is there to reduce the risks of a rollover, not to prevent rear wheel spin.

    Fortunately, at my age I don't feel the need for speed (as much), so I can just motor along enjoying the scenery while I gradually figure out how the machine performs and which body part is causing the pain today. If you come up on me on the road, feel free to pass.

    pmdave

    BTW, I can't imagine trying to manage a two wheeler with the Rotax 990 motor, let alone anything more powerful. If you're thinking about buying one of those new S1000RRs, I hope you realize what it means to have a 193 HP engine in a 450 lb. bike. Controlling that machine on twisty public roads is going to be a big challenge.

  2. #62
    Registered User dancogan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGlaves View Post
    Ya know, there are a handful of people I just don't argue with about Proficient Motorcycling or More Proficient Motorcycling and pmdave is one of them.
    +2

    There are 2 people wouldn't argue with, and both names are above.
    Dan

  3. #63
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    A New Forum?

    I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.

    OK, I think it raises questions of "what goes where" for the moderators considering the request, and it is probably not simple. YOUR approval of the idea in principle, I believe is the first step.

    If the idea is approved in principle, then I think the moderators could reach out to a couple dozen experienced posters for the appropriate, and inappropriate, topics and set the ground rules.

    My original thread here generated more thoughtful replies than I would have thought possible. I have a few more topics I would like to raise for discussion under this area, and I bet a NEW FORUM would have even more topics raised - with some really good ideas we would never have thought of on our own.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.
    Here, here!

    I think as our forum expands, it will more closely resemble advrider than we care to admit.

  5. #65
    Kbiker BCKRider's Avatar
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    Thank you!

    As one fairly new to the Forum, you can't imagine how gratifying it is to generate so many thoughtful replies to my OP in only a few days! I single out PGlaves and pmdave for special thanks, only because I've read their work in the ON and Dave's books have a special shelf in my bathroom for frequent review. (BTW, if you haven't met them, they are the greatest guys with tons of experience and seemingly no ego.) They would be the first to admit that they don't have the "last word" on cornering speed.

    When it comes to "slow corners," there are clearly others posting here, Lawrence Grodsky's book "Stayin' Safe, and others who have decidedly different ideas about corner lines, how to brake in curves, etc.

    I would like the discussion to go on. And in fact will add to it:

    You have to know the road before you can trust the "suggested speed signs," and I'm not talking about gravel or cow poop. Hwy 6 from Vernon, B.C. to Nakusp has a number of straight sections but also many curves with speed signs. In almost all of them a speed 50% higher works for me, a fairly conservative rider, and 100% over is no sweat for a good rider, providing the gravel is gone. PROBLEM: there are two badly marked corners (not the slowest suggested speed either) where much over the limit and you will be in the ditch! When the cops bemoaned the motorcycle accident rate on this road in the local paper, I wrote a "letter to the editor" which suggested that a couple "slow to" signs might need to be changed to save accidents and even lives. You guessed right. Nothing has been done.

    Again, thanks to all. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO THE PREVIOUS "NEW fORUM" POST.
    Doug
    1992 K100RS

  6. #66
    Registered User texanrt's Avatar
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    Safety, training & techniques

    Some months back we discussed opening a new forum for riding technique and safety issues -- maybe it's time to revisit that again. As the mods always say, if there's enough interest in a topic, they are open to adding a forum.

    Here's one of the threads I started back then to discuss road surface conditions that was inspired by some reading I was doing at the time.

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...ire+edge+traps


    Here's another thread we posted about starting a safety forum....

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...t=safety+forum

    Here's another thread we started about advanced riding -- how to benefit from track days...

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthre...ight=track+day

    I'm all for a safety, training, and techniques discussions.
    Texan RT | Houston | IBA
    BMW R1200RT | HD Road Glide

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCKRIDER View Post
    I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.
    Aye

  8. #68
    Focused kbasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT9766 View Post
    I support that proposal for a riding skills section of the forum.

    PT9766
    +1

    It fit the "want to learn to ride their bike better" which 85% of our survey respondents identified as one of the reasons they belong to the MOA.
    Dave Swider
    Marin County, CA

    Some bikes. Some with motors, some without.

  9. #69
    God? What god? roborider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmdave View Post
    Speed is an interesting discussion. But of course there's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than going fast around corners. There is an interesting report from Northen Ireland that includes the opinions of riders about training, experience, etc.. Here's a chart that depicts their opinion of "what is learned with experience"

    Note that "cornering" isn't high on the list.

    pmdave
    This is an excellent point. A "pilot" should never stop learning and be complacent. We were taught in "Cornerspeed" track class that we are pilots, in control, while "riders" are reacting to situations--strive to be a motorcycle Pilot. MSF is good to start. Police courses are good for safety. Reading books is excellent. And Track classes are INVALUABLE for fine tuning your riding at an advanced level. The advanced training pays off for the street. If you take "Cornerspeed" (or the ilk) and "Cornerspin" (or the ilk) and practice power sliding your rear tire and high side avoidance, and leaning into a corner enough to wear out a knee puck, your skills on the street increase concomitantly. No corner is too hot if you lean over enough to drag a peg. I'm not recommending this on the street, but I mean that I see guys drive off the road because they are scared to lean over all the way in an emergency. Better to low side (which you are unlikely to do) than to drive off the road into oncoming traffic.

    Never stop learning, never stop practicing.
    Rob C. , Raleigh, NC
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    Suzuki DR 350

  10. #70
    "Running Out The Clock" grafikfeat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redclfco View Post
    I don't consciously think about it at all; it all comes from a lifetime of experience in previous roads, my brain does the calculations on its own.
    Yup. + me too...

    As I ride the machine becomes part of me. Ya just know/feel it.

    If I had to sum it up: "Within my capabilities."
    "Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting."

  11. #71
    God? What god? roborider's Avatar
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    I have that on the street, the programmed brain, and it is a great feeling when you are there. My problem is on the track. I don't have that on the track. I am constantly going into corners and my brain is saying "too hot", yet, it's not enough. I can't get to that programmed track brain since it is such a big deal to get there. You can't just get up and go for an hour of practice any time you want. And, that sucks!
    Rob C. , Raleigh, NC
    '10 R12RT, R90/6
    2007 CBR600RR & 09 V-Star
    Suzuki DR 350

  12. #72
    I like TANG! bubbagazoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brase View Post
    Here's the simple yet definitive answer:

    The first number on the curve sign tells you what gear to be in. The bike should be "up on the cam," meaning 4500-5000 RPM.

    That works for most BMW transmission ratios but NOT the C model cruiser bikes. And you should check a little when you cross state lines because some road engineers see things a little differently.

    But, you are on your own out there and it is your responsibility to make sure you have good sight lines and the surface is nice.

    John
    First, living in Edmonton, I must ask -- what are these twisties you talk about? Maybe I don't go to the right places out of town but I have never encountered anything that could be considered twisties around here.

    When I have encountered twisties in my travels down to the US of A (surprisigly, Montana has lots), my rule of thumb is to ride OIO. I adjust my speed for what ever I feel comfortable with (sight lines, road conditions, load on the bike and speed advisory signage all play a part in this) and try to keep my RPMs around 3,000. That, on my CL, seems to be the sweet spot in terms of ideally controlable power. If I need more oomph, it's there and if I need to roll off, the bike responds quickly but not suddenly.

    Because I don't ride through twisties very often, I find myself extremely conscious of my technique and talk myself through each step of the process. Multiple left-right-left-right combinations result in a rather long monologue. It works for me.
    Robert
    2010 Suzuki GSX1250SEA
    ÔÇ£If you get in too far over your head, remember - full throttle and make it spectacular!ÔÇØ http://www.yearroundriders.com

  13. #73
    Bob
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbagazoo View Post
    (surprisigly, Montana has lots)
    One more reason we love it here!

  14. #74
    Just me rad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBasa View Post
    +1

    It fit the "want to learn to ride their bike better" which 85% of our survey respondents identified as one of the reasons they belong to the MOA.
    Well put. Great idea.

    BTW, Dave...... Scott hooked me up

  15. #75
    Ritalin Poster Boy rob nye's Avatar
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    I think a section on riding better would be a very good idea.

    One challenge is not everything is an absolute and it could be tough to moderate.

    IMO what works well on a /5 might not translate well to a S1000RR.

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