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Thread: For consideration by the board.

  1. #1
    Manfred
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    For consideration by the board.

    The rules of the forum prohibit the topics of:
    1. Religion and abortion
    2. Politics
    3. Handguns

    But nowhere are these defined. This leads to loose and inconsistent application of these prohibitions.

    ÔÇ£ReligionÔÇØ is such a broad term that, left as a stand-alone label, can reasonably be applied to many discussions. For many people, their motorcycle or brand or their brand related identity is religious. And religious topics have been allowed ÔÇô yoga for example ÔÇô and no foul was called until it was pointed out that yoga presents a danger to anyone who claims another religion, such as Christianity. For the Christian, itÔÇÖs not permissible to set our ÔÇ£religionÔÇØ on the side and be like the world in our discussions.

    ÔÇ£PoliticsÔÇØ is likewise a vague term. People start discussions about government programs ÔÇô how is that not political?

    I would encourage the board to re-think its current prohibitions. Instead of vague yet absolute prohibitions, a more reasonable approach ÔÇô that works in face-to-face discussions ÔÇô is to limit such discussion to issues and not make personal comments about posters or subjects in the thread. Why is it forbidden for me to mention, in a thread about the ON magazine, that I would rather give away Bibles than a motorcycle magazine, as was suggested I do with ON? ThatÔÇÖs not an attack on anyone. And anyone who is offended by such comments needs to grow some thicker skin. ItÔÇÖs OK to trash other brands ÔÇô as if the Harley Riders are any less religious about their brand than many BMW owners are.

    I, for one, will not and cannot abide by the rules as written. The forum owners have the right to make whatever rules they want. I am merely requesting yaÔÇÖll take another look at how you handle these hot topics. It ainÔÇÖt working too great as it is.

  2. #2
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that it needs fixing.

    No matter how they were defined, there would continue to be arguments over the meaning of the definition.

    You suggest that others get a thicker skin, yet you point out that somehow "yoga presents a danger to anyone who claims another religion, such as Christianity". Why, in this instance, should you not have a thicker skin about yoga?

    As a Christian I'm not in any danger from those who practice yoga or believe in yoga.

    The reason that the prohibitions exist it that experience has shown those topics can not be discussed in an acceptable manner on this and many other forums. BMW Sports Touring forum is an example where these topics are not allowed.

    Considering your statement "I, for one, will not and cannot abide by the rules as written.", I can only see two alternatives. 1. The policy is changed to what you think it should be, or, 2. You no longer choose to participate.

    Ride Well, Ride Often, Ride to

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  3. #3
    Cannonball Rider #52 darrylri's Avatar
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    <moderator>

    While discussing the rules here is not only acceptable, but encouraged, I want to emphasize that this thread could very easily go off the rails. All who choose to participate in this thread, please choose your words carefully. Thanks.

    </moderator>
    --Darryl Richman, forum liaison
    http://darryl.crafty-fox.com

  4. #4
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    I'm not sure that it needs fixing.

    No matter how they were defined, there would continue to be arguments over the meaning of the definition.

    You suggest that others get a thicker skin, yet you point out that somehow "yoga presents a danger to anyone who claims another religion, such as Christianity". Why, in this instance, should you not have a thicker skin about yoga?

    As a Christian I'm not in any danger from those who practice yoga or believe in yoga.

    The reason that the prohibitions exist it that experience has shown those topics can not be discussed in an acceptable manner on this and many other forums. BMW Sports Touring forum is an example where these topics are not allowed.

    Considering your statement "I, for one, will not and cannot abide by the rules as written.", I can only see two alternatives. 1. The policy is changed to what you think it should be, or, 2. You no longer choose to participate.

    Yoga is a subtle danger for westerners and the eastern gurus who teach it and live it laugh at Americans who think they can do the exercises and not subject themselves to the religion it is based on. A Christian would get involved with yoga as a result of careless neglect.

    My skin is not thin regarding yoga - I never claimed offense. I pointed out a concern and others took offense at that.

    Do what seems right to ya'll. I think it's cowardly to have these rules the way they are. BMW is not my religion so I can live without the BMWOA.

  5. #5
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrylRi View Post
    <moderator>

    While discussing the rules here is not only acceptable, but encouraged, I want to emphasize that this thread could very easily go off the rails. All who choose to participate in this thread, please choose your words carefully. Thanks.

    </moderator>
    Thanks, Darryl.

    Indeed, most threads can off the rails and people ought to choose their words carefully, so as to keep the focus on the issue and not the persons participating in the discussion.

  6. #6
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    I totally agree, religon, abortion, politics and handguns should be banned from discusion on this forum. There are plenty of other places on the web to find soap boxes for these sort of topics. IT IS A MOTORCYCLE FORUM!!!!!!!!
    Mo Shaffer
    Maggie valley NC,
    St. George, BM

  7. #7
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by moshaffer View Post
    I totally agree, religon, abortion, politics and handguns should be banned from discusion on this forum. There are plenty of other places on the web to find soap boxes for these sort of topics. IT IS A MOTORCYCLE FORUM!!!!!!!!
    But it's not restricted to motorcycle topics. If that's your rationale, then you should ask for all talk that is not about motorcycles to be banned. No comment in any thread should be about anything except motorcycles.

    And since this is the BMWOA forum, one should only be able to discuss, in glowing terms, BMW motorcycles. After all, IT IS THE BMW OWNER'S MOTORCYCLE FORUM!

    Sounds like a religion to me.

  8. #8
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    For those who have not read the POSTING GUIDELINES it would do well to do so.

    The rational for the current policy is clearly spelled out.
    Ride Well, Ride Often, Ride to

    Charter Member "High Town" crew.

  9. #9
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    For those who have not read the POSTING GUIDELINES it would do well to do so.

    The rational for the current policy is clearly spelled out.
    Certainly the rationale is there, but it lacks any definition of what is considered religious or political. This leads to much subjective enforcement of these "no tolerance" rules.

  10. #10
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    Certainly the rationale is there, but it lacks any definition of what is considered religious or political. This leads to much subjective enforcement of these "no tolerance" rules.
    And what are the rules you'd like to see us enforce? Care to outline them?

    The moderators are given the unenviable job of enforcing the rules as written. While we may suggest modifications of the rules in order to maintain a civil and respectful environment, expanding the rules vs a moderator using their judgment intepreting the existing rules is not a direction I think many people would want to see the forums move in. (Was that too twisted a sentence.. might have been..)

    If you object to the action a moderator may have taken on a posting - you can always contact the forum Liason Oldhway and object to him directly.

    BTW - it's the BMW-MOA, not BMW OA.. just wanted to clear that up..
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
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  11. #11
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred View Post
    Certainly the rationale is there, but it lacks any definition of what is considered religious or political. This leads to much subjective enforcement of these "no tolerance" rules.
    I agree that there is no definition.

    You asked to change the kind of topics that could be allowed to include those, that experience has shown, to be topics that do not do well in this forum. The rational as to why they are not allowed is clearly spelled out.
    Ride Well, Ride Often, Ride to

    Charter Member "High Town" crew.

  12. #12
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by deilenberger View Post
    And what are the rules you'd like to see us enforce? Care to outline them?

    The moderators are given the unenviable job of enforcing the rules as written. While we may suggest modifications of the rules in order to maintain a civil and respectful environment, expanding the rules vs a moderator using their judgment intepreting the existing rules is not a direction I think many people would want to see the forums move in. (Was that too twisted a sentence.. might have been..)

    If you object to the action a moderator may have taken on a posting - you can always contact the forum Liason Oldhway and object to him directly.

    BTW - it's the BMW-MOA, not BMW OA.. just wanted to clear that up..
    I outlined the rules of engagement that I recommend in my initial post - religious and political issues should be allowed but comments must be restricted to a discussion of issues, not attacks on people in the forum.

  13. #13
    Registered User widebmw's Avatar
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    If only there was a place, a round table or a bar or maybe a pub or

    There is ADVrider and a place in that called Jo Momma.

    That is why it is there and not here.

  14. #14
    Manfred
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIBUD View Post
    I agree that there is no definition.

    You asked to change the kind of topics that could be allowed to include those, that experience has shown, to be topics that do not do well in this forum. The rational as to why they are not allowed is clearly spelled out.
    One of my points is that without definitions, people cannot be expected to know ahead of time what will be considered verboten. One man's religion is another man's joke, etc. It's clear that some religious and political content is permitted - but it is unknown by what terms. Definitions of these terms would help clear up what the rationale is there for.

  15. #15
    Mountain King JAMESDUNN's Avatar
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    "Jo Mamma".

    Quote Originally Posted by widebmw View Post
    If only there was a place, a round table or a bar or maybe a pub or

    There is ADVrider and a place in that called Jo Momma.

    That is why it is there and not here.
    Manfred; "Jo Momma" at ADVrider is a type of "Tavern" and would be a good place for you to visit and perhaps post. I have and do. Personally, I don't want too much of any religion anywhere at any time on any venue, regardless of origin or type. To refer to motorcycles as a type of religion is a point I well understand, but consider a "stretch" and if a religion, is one on a smaller and different scale than the world religions such as Christianity.
    As to the rules? I am okay with them and understand the need and reasons for said rules about posting. I see no need to reconsider or alter the rules as stated.
    1994 R1100RSL, '78 R100RS

    "Ride hard or stay home."

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