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Thread: Anybody home?

  1. #1
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Anybody home?

    I usually frequent the Airhead forum and it's helped greatly when I'm in a pinch, but now that my R90/6 and Aermacchi are long since built and finished, I'm going to be building an early R60 with R69s guts. This is going to be my first ground up "complete" build, and by that I mean I'm building the engine from a bare case, and everything else up from a bare frame. I'm pretty impressed with the BMW blue book as far as factory manuals go and mechanically I'm proficient enough that the concept of this build doesn't make me that uncomfortable, but I'm sure there'll be questions I have along the way. Does anybody still visit this part of the forum?
    // 1975 BMW R90/6 (cafe'd) // 1957 BMW R60 (in pieces) // 1967 Aermacchi/H-D Sprint 250 SS (custom special) // 1973 VW Type 181 Custom SOLD )

    http://symphonyofshrapnel.blogspot.com

  2. #2
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    We still hang out here, not as much activity as over here however:

    www.vintagebmw.org

    I have a 69S project ongoing ...seems I keep running out of project $$
    Steve Henson
    SABMWRA MOA Club#62's Flat Fixer/ current forum moderator
    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

  3. #3
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    We still hang out here, not as much activity as over here however:

    www.vintagebmw.org

    I have a 69S project ongoing ...seems I keep running out of project $$
    I know what you mean, that's why I don't want to spend any extra cash on another club membership!

    I have a frame and bare engine case, a transmission, bearing carriers, and other odds and ends. I've already decided on adapting a /6 final drive and swingarm and using /5 telescopic forks as I have those laying around the shop.

    As far as filling the empty engine case, I picked up a box of R69S parts at a swap meet for $50 which included a good cam, timing gears, a 2nd oversize piston, some miscellaneous parts, and a crankshaft that is yet to be determined whether or not it is good (have to take it to the machine shop for measurement and to press out the pins), as there is some slop in the connecting rods and one is snapped. I've already committed to replacing those with new, and assuming everything else measures into spec, it doesn't look like it'll be too expensive to build the bottom end just by perusing MaxBMW's pricing of all new bearings, shims, and the like.

    Once that's sorted out I'll have to start worrying about the really expensive stuff like cylinders and heads of which I've yet to find anything affordable or in good shape, but that's why I plan on really taking my time with this...
    // 1975 BMW R90/6 (cafe'd) // 1957 BMW R60 (in pieces) // 1967 Aermacchi/H-D Sprint 250 SS (custom special) // 1973 VW Type 181 Custom SOLD )

    http://symphonyofshrapnel.blogspot.com

  4. #4
    Administrator 20774's Avatar
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    Regarding the frame and engine...I'm assuming they're orphaned parts. Any chance they might match up with anything on the orphan list here:

    http://bmwvmca.org/joomla/

    Be sure and check that the timing gears are the right ones for the engine. There's a number stamped on the topside of the engine which is the center-to-center distance between the crank and cam when it left the factory. Over time, due to the explosions in each cylinder, the case distances tend to shrink vertically. It's easy to fit the gears when you have a pile to choose from...just keep trying them until you get good meshing. Not so easy when you only have one pair in your hands.
    Kurt -- Forum Administrator ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  5. #5
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20774 View Post
    Regarding the frame and engine...I'm assuming they're orphaned parts. Any chance they might match up with anything on the orphan list here:

    http://bmwvmca.org/joomla/

    Be sure and check that the timing gears are the right ones for the engine. There's a number stamped on the topside of the engine which is the center-to-center distance between the crank and cam when it left the factory. Over time, due to the explosions in each cylinder, the case distances tend to shrink vertically. It's easy to fit the gears when you have a pile to choose from...just keep trying them until you get good meshing. Not so easy when you only have one pair in your hands.
    Engine and frame are matching numbers for a 57 R60, not on the orphan list however.

    There's going to be a lot of playing around with building that engine as I'm finding I have to source a bit of NLA parts including the front bearing carrier (where the oil pump gears go) and the timing cover from ebay + I'll be working with R69S internals in an R60 case. The case I have is literally just that, doesn't even have the oil pan on it. I'm going to try my best to use what I have or source things cheaply, but I'm not ruling out purchasing a complete engine in the future and doing a re-build, instead of a total engine build. Just a matter of seeing how far I get under water.

    It's going to take a long time for this one, and I'm fine with that. Also not really a purist, and want a bike to be ridden instead of polished, so as far as stuff like tanks, fenders, rims, etc. go I'm open to non-BMW alternatives (I did a little welding and adapted a Benelli tank to my Aermacchi because I liked it better, things like that).
    // 1975 BMW R90/6 (cafe'd) // 1957 BMW R60 (in pieces) // 1967 Aermacchi/H-D Sprint 250 SS (custom special) // 1973 VW Type 181 Custom SOLD )

    http://symphonyofshrapnel.blogspot.com

  6. #6
    Registered User vechbmw's Avatar
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    Home in the shop almost 7 days a week anymore

    [QUOTE=typ181r90;928114]Engine and frame are matching numbers for a 57 R60, not on the orphan list however.

    There's going to be a lot of playing around with building that engine as I'm finding I have to source a bit of NLA parts including the front bearing carrier (where the oil pump gears go)

    You'll be surprised to know that there is very little No Longer Available parts for 1955 - 1969 BMW's.

    The LATE front bearing carrier is, in fact, available new. It is the only one that is. This is the part number: 11 11 0 002 034 - front bearing carrier R50-R69S. I have one in stock... You see, I'm in the parts business for pre 1970 BMW's. And I restore bikes and build motors for folks. (and gearboxes and final drives) Sadly, a part like this may cost more than a used lower end you might find at a swap meet. Best thing for you to do, is buy a complete engine at a swap meet, and rebuild it. You will also find there are a lot of variations and changes in parts through time. There are at least 5 different front bearing carriers. Different thickness beveled washers that go between the slinger and the front main bearing and rear main bearing, (all changed through the years) there are two different rear main bearing carriers also. And also different oil slingers... So, if you are not familiar with these engines, and unaware of all the various changes through time, I don't care if you do this slow, or fast, you are going to get in over your head, versus buying a complete engine, tearing it down, rebuilding it, and putting it back together.

    and the timing cover from ebay +

    Nice idea, but there are different front gear covers also. The seller may or may not know that there is any differences. You may or may not be aware of the differences. You see, an R69S has a 20 mm crank nose. Early R50 - R60 and R51/3 engines have a 17 mm crank nose. Can't use one of those early gear covers on an R69S crank. Won't fit. At a glance to the uninformed, they all look the same but they are not. And, the earlier R69 and R68 are different again. Both of those engines had a 3rd ball bearing in front of the cam gear. But the R69S did not. So, as I said, to build an engine out of random parts is not so easy if you don't know what your looking at.

    It is like the timed breather in front of the cam gear. Early ones had a single pressed in locating pin, and used a coil spring behind it. later ones had two pressed in pins. Later still, the last versions had two cast in feet, and used a big wave washer, instead of a coil spring. You can't fit a last version breather on a earlier one pin or two pin cam gear.

    And, did you know that there are two basic different types of timing gears? The angle of the gear teeth are different between to two types (along with the two types of oil pump gears with their corresponding teeth angles) and they are incompatible with each other. They won't fit or work with each other. And, did you notice the number stamped on the case, by the upper motor mount stud on the case? It can be marked -6 through 0 through +6. This denotes what size gear set was fitted.... Yea, that's right, 13 different size gear sets. And you can't mix those up either.

    And there is more, but this ought to give you a pretty good feel for what you advocate doing, building an engine from spare parts.

    Which is why I'm telling you to buy a complete engine and rebuild it, rather than attempt to buy a part here, and a part there.

    And if you think your going to get out cheap, well...........

    How did I learn all of this? From working on them for 40 years.

    Vech
    MOA Ambassador
    Bench Mark Works

  7. #7
    Superkraut typ181r90's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=vechbmw;928584]
    Quote Originally Posted by typ181r90 View Post
    Engine and frame are matching numbers for a 57 R60, not on the orphan list however.

    There's going to be a lot of playing around with building that engine as I'm finding I have to source a bit of NLA parts including the front bearing carrier (where the oil pump gears go)

    You'll be surprised to know that there is very little No Longer Available parts for 1955 - 1969 BMW's.

    The LATE front bearing carrier is, in fact, available new. It is the only one that is. This is the part number: 11 11 0 002 034 - front bearing carrier R50-R69S. I have one in stock... You see, I'm in the parts business for pre 1970 BMW's. And I restore bikes and build motors for folks. (and gearboxes and final drives) Sadly, a part like this may cost more than a used lower end you might find at a swap meet. Best thing for you to do, is buy a complete engine at a swap meet, and rebuild it. You will also find there are a lot of variations and changes in parts through time. There are at least 5 different front bearing carriers. Different thickness beveled washers that go between the slinger and the front main bearing and rear main bearing, (all changed through the years) there are two different rear main bearing carriers also. And also different oil slingers... So, if you are not familiar with these engines, and unaware of all the various changes through time, I don't care if you do this slow, or fast, you are going to get in over your head, versus buying a complete engine, tearing it down, rebuilding it, and putting it back together.

    and the timing cover from ebay +

    Nice idea, but there are different front gear covers also. The seller may or may not know that there is any differences. You may or may not be aware of the differences. You see, an R69S has a 20 mm crank nose. Early R50 - R60 and R51/3 engines have a 17 mm crank nose. Can't use one of those early gear covers on an R69S crank. Won't fit. At a glance to the uninformed, they all look the same but they are not. And, the earlier R69 and R68 are different again. Both of those engines had a 3rd ball bearing in front of the cam gear. But the R69S did not. So, as I said, to build an engine out of random parts is not so easy if you don't know what your looking at.

    It is like the timed breather in front of the cam gear. Early ones had a single pressed in locating pin, and used a coil spring behind it. later ones had two pressed in pins. Later still, the last versions had two cast in feet, and used a big wave washer, instead of a coil spring. You can't fit a last version breather on a earlier one pin or two pin cam gear.

    And, did you know that there are two basic different types of timing gears? The angle of the gear teeth are different between to two types (along with the two types of oil pump gears with their corresponding teeth angles) and they are incompatible with each other. They won't fit or work with each other. And, did you notice the number stamped on the case, by the upper motor mount stud on the case? It can be marked -6 through 0 through +6. This denotes what size gear set was fitted.... Yea, that's right, 13 different size gear sets. And you can't mix those up either.

    And there is more, but this ought to give you a pretty good feel for what you advocate doing, building an engine from spare parts.

    Which is why I'm telling you to buy a complete engine and rebuild it, rather than attempt to buy a part here, and a part there.

    And if you think your going to get out cheap, well...........

    How did I learn all of this? From working on them for 40 years.

    Vech
    MOA Ambassador
    Bench Mark Works

    Hey Vech,

    I am by no means advocating building an engine from spare parts or ruling out just buying a complete engine and rebuilding. It would be nice to keep everything matching numbers, but I also realize that that just may not be possible, but I do have some things on hand and I at least want to give it a shot before going crazy. I'm not deep into this at all (yet), for example, the early front bearing carrier only cost me $27 as opposed to the $700 BMW is looking for for the new style

    I have the BMW factory service manual and parts catalog, which have been my bedtime reading for a couple weeks now, so I did know about the timing cover/crank nose differences and the stamps on top of the case for the gears that both yourself and Kurt mentioned. Again, this isn't something that has to be done any time soon

    Good to know you're in the parts business. I haven't been to Mid-Ohio or the Barber swap meets and out in NJ old BMW pickings are extremely rare. I keep hearing it's worth the trip, but with a wife, kid, and another kid on the way sometimes it's hard to juggle the schedule.

    P.S. I saw some pics of your R12 and pre-war/war period bikes on the picture thread - beautiful work. An R12 is a dream bike of mine, but I think I'll have to win the lottery first.
    // 1975 BMW R90/6 (cafe'd) // 1957 BMW R60 (in pieces) // 1967 Aermacchi/H-D Sprint 250 SS (custom special) // 1973 VW Type 181 Custom SOLD )

    http://symphonyofshrapnel.blogspot.com

  8. #8
    Registered User vechbmw's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=typ181r90;928655]
    Quote Originally Posted by vechbmw View Post


    Hey Vech,
    I have the BMW factory service manual and parts catalog, which have been my bedtime reading for a couple weeks now, so I did know about the timing cover/crank nose differences and the stamps on top of the case for the gears that both yourself and Kurt mentioned. Again, this isn't something that has to be done any time soon


    Let me offer you a suggestion as to further reading which you will find it will be more than you ever wanted to know about /2 engines and bikes.
    I have this in stock also: The BMW /2 Motorcycle Restoration and Service Manual by Betjemann This book is well worth the money. I helped write parts of it, and proof read it before it was printed.


    P.S. I saw some pics of your R12 and pre-war/war period bikes on the picture thread - beautiful work. An R12 is a dream bike of mine, but I think I'll have to win the lottery first.
    When you get into prewar, your into a whole new ball game. They are not for the faint of heart, due to the lack of parts, and the usual abused terrible condition they are in, if and when you find one.
    And if you think post war bikes are expensive, you ain't seen nothing yet!

  9. #9
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    Hi Vech, thanks for the reality check. So I think I'll just pull out my bottle of Crown Royal now, and forget about older airheads.
    (My '65 R60 is running, so I'm pleased as punch!):

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