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Thread: Crankshaft to timing cover seal '87 K100LT

  1. #1
    mrhoop01@webtv.net
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    Crankshaft to timing cover seal '87 K100LT

    I have an 87 K100LT,I'm having a problem with the installation of the timing chain cover to crankshaft seal behind the ignition rotor. part# 11-14-7654-530, I can't get it to stop leaking. The
    timing cover is still installed on the bike. I've gone through a couple of seals already. I can poke a small hole in the circmuferance of the seal, insert an o-ring remover tool and pry the seal out without damaging the cover or the crank journal. I understand the seal is teflon, so it goes on dry, does the outer surface where it mates to the timing cover also have to be dry? That's the way I've tried so far. I use a 2.00" OD piece of PVC pipe to drive the seal in, and I slip a section of a plastic bottle around the crank end to help guide and protect the seal inner surface. I drive the seal in until it's flush with the outer bore.The seal is installed with the numbers and arrow facing forward, the arrow in direction of rotation. The oil level is not overfilled. I've massaged the teflon area to help it stretch over the crankshaft. I've installed the seal on a hot and cold engine, I've let the seal set overnight, within 5-10 minutes of running, oil will seep from the crank lip area. Please Help!

  2. #2
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    Re: Crankshaft to timing cover seal

    Originally posted by sofakingsimple
    I have an 87 K100LT,I'm having a problem with the installation of the timing chain cover to crankshaft seal behind the ignition rotor. part# 11-14-7654-530, I can't get it to stop leaking. The
    timing cover is still installed on the bike. I've gone through a couple of seals already. I can poke a small hole in the circmuferance of the seal, insert an o-ring remover tool and pry the seal out without damaging the cover or the crank journal. I understand the seal is teflon, so it goes on dry, does the outer surface where it mates to the timing cover also have to be dry? That's the way I've tried so far. I use a 2.00" OD piece of PVC pipe to drive the seal in, and I slip a section of a plastic bottle around the crank end to help guide and protect the seal inner surface. I drive the seal in until it's flush with the outer bore.The seal is installed with the numbers and arrow facing forward, the arrow in direction of rotation. The oil level is not overfilled. I've massaged the teflon area to help it stretch over the crankshaft. I've installed the seal on a hot and cold engine, I've let the seal set overnight, within 5-10 minutes of running, oil will seep from the crank lip area. Please Help!
    Hmmm..

    I've never heard of this seal needing replacement. Unusual.

    It sounds like you're installing it correctly. I do wonder if it is really teflon (which isn't terribly resiliant) or a teflon impregnated rubber seal (like they use on the secondary output shaft).

    Given the number of seals you've put in - I'd be looking VERY closely at the part of the crank the seal rides on.. and perhaps not seat it quite as deep as the original one was - so it rides on a new section of the crank surface.

    Two tricks I've used - but you'll have to try them at your own risk:

    1. Feather the edge of the seal with 1200 paper.. sometimes seals have some mold-flash left from being manufacturered on the lip surface. The 1200 paper, used very gently, run around the inside of the seal lip maybe twice will eliminate the mold-flash. Obviously - don't over do it.

    2. Tightening the seal spring. On the back part of the seal (part facing into the engine) - there should be a spring that pulls the lip into contact with the crankshaft surface. It is sometimes possible to remove the spring and shorten it just a bit to increase the tension. Some of them use loops to join the ends, other ones just have one end of the spring screwed into the other end.

    In either case - YMMV and you really shouldn't have to do either. Doing them won't permanantly harm anything, but it might just waste a seal on you.

    Oh - one other thing I've heard of doing with some BMW seals - is to put them on the shaft the night before you're installing them into the recess in the engine.

    It's to give the seal lip time to adjust to the diameter of the shaft before you start the engine and expect it to seal..

    I'd also put a film of oil on the shaft before doing this, and before bedding the seal into the recess in the engine. A dry seal can be easily damaged - an oiled one less so. This is the case even with a Teflon type seal (which I think are actually teflon impregnated rubber). I can see no reason NOT to use a thin film of oil..

    Ah - another thought. Do you have the original seal you removed? If so - check the depth of the lip of the seal from the face of the seal. BMW has been known to change seal design more than one time - requiring the seal to be installed at a different depth than the original one was. The secondary shaft output seal is one that immediately comes to mind.

    If you don't have the original - look at how a failed seal sits on the end of the crankshaft - could it be the lip is falling on an un-machined section of the crank due to being different than the original one?

    HTH, sorry, no real "answer" but mebbe some things to think about and try.. Let us know how you make out.
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders New Sweden BMW Riders
    '07 R1200R (current ride) and some bimmers.. and a Porsche

  3. #3
    Focused kbasa's Avatar
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    That's why they call him "The Don".
    Dave Swider
    Marin County, CA

    Some bikes. Some with motors, some without.

  4. #4
    Blocking the slow lane
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    Actually, there has been some confusion on this seal in the past as I think there was a design change and there are a couple of different part numbers floating about. The reason it usually leaks is because the setting depth is not correct. I don't know if the ETK would specify that or not.
    Jon Diaz
    BMW K75/K12GT
    BMWMOA Ambassador

  5. #5
    mrhoop01@webtv.net
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    Crankshaft to timing cover seal

    Thanks to all for your advice.The reason for the seal replacement was I replaced the timing chain and tensioner, and since the covers were off I had them powdercoated. A bit of preventive maintenance at 112,000 miles.The original seal was part# 11-14-1-460-350,which was your standard rubber lip seal with the spring. The replacement is a new style with a Teflon inner lip with no spring, only an outer rubber lip to hold tension on the inner teflon seal surface. From the advice I've received from various service dept's they said the crank surface and the timing cover bore should be dry. The first one I put in I used oil on both surfaces. No luck. I've tried looking for an original style replacement but no good, I'll try some seal manf's next. I tried different depths. The crank has a beveled forward end to help the seal slip over. I won't give up, I have 3 more seals to get it right. Keep the ideas coming and I'll keep trying. Thanks, Bob

  6. #6
    bmwmick
    Guest

    Re: Crankshaft to timing cover seal

    Originally posted by sofakingsimple
    Thanks to all for your advice.The reason for the seal replacement was I replaced the timing chain and tensioner, and since the covers were off I had them powdercoated. A bit of preventive maintenance at 112,000 miles.The original seal was part# 11-14-1-460-350,which was your standard rubber lip seal with the spring. SNIP
    Bob,
    I have to ask this, you didn't get some powdercoating material in the seal recess area did you?
    The seal is a 36X52X7 seal and you should be able to source it somewhere other than BMW if you have to.
    I replaced my front seal years ago just because I was in there resealing the front cover. The 11-14-1-460-350 was changed 9/99 to 11-14-7-654-530 and has now been changed to 11-14-7-654-531 for some unknown reason. When I replaced mine (with the original style seal) I put a very thin coating of black silicone sealer around the outside of the seal and oiled the inner lip. Never had a problem. The silicone was probably a waste of time but it made seating the seal very easy. My seal was 'bottomed' in the cover and I have never seen any spec that says otherwise.
    Good luck.......

    Mick

  7. #7
    mrhoop01@webtv.net
    Guest
    Mick, Thanks for the reply. The surfaces were free of powder coating. You mentioned you replaced your seal with an original style, not the new teflon type, I probably wouldn't be having this trouble if I had an original style. I will try some silicone on the outer surface this time, but the crank surface will be dry. Here we go.
    Bob

  8. #8
    moondog
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    A thread over 3 years old still of use. Good thing. I removed the seal a while back, took pictures and computer crashed, lost all info, couldn't remember which way the new seal went back in , and here is the thread I needed . Thanks everyone. I hope they back up all these threads also!

  9. #9
    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    I received an email today from Svante Brand?®n, who had some comments on this thread (which is coming back from the dead thanks to Svante..):

    Very good info about the problem with the new seal, the seal lip has to be directed back-wards to what comes natural! Description at the end of first and beginning of second clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnNEs...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IgELtnml1k&NR=1

    You can get around the problem by putting the seal (without cover) in place over night, to predirect the seal lip correctly. And VERY carefully reinstall the cover with seal in place. I made it that way.

    The other method is to unbolt the end part of the crankshaft before installing cover with seal. When reinstalling the crank shaft end, the seal lip will ne bent correctly. But of course you have to check crank shaft angle is correct after this procedure.

    Hope you can add this info to the thread on the BMW MOA site

    http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2541

    Regards
    Svante Brand?®n, Stockholm, Sweden
    R75/5 '73
    K100RS Motorsport '87
    R80GS Kalahari '96
    R1200C Independent '02
    Z3 2.0L '01
    Thanks Svante! The information on the seal direction for the new seals is undoubtably going to be useful for someone..!
    Don Eilenberger http://www.eilenberger.net
    Spring Lk Heights NJ NJ Shore BMW Riders New Sweden BMW Riders
    '07 R1200R (current ride) and some bimmers.. and a Porsche

  10. #10
    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    I have never done this seal on a K75 but have on Oilheads. The problem is generally the same. The lips need to be curled inward but driving the seal into the case (case mounted) or installing the case (seal already installed) both cause the lips to curl outward.

    On an R1100 motor the OD of the shaft just matches the ID of an old fashioned black plastic Kodak 35mm film can. So improvising, I preformed the seal with the lips curled inward on the film can. With the film can slipped over the shaft I drove the seal, then carefully slid the film can forward off the shaft - leaving the seal lip against the shaft and curled inward, the right way.

    This is the principle that BMW uses with many of their "special tool" seal drivers. For example the rear main crank seal drivers where the OD of the driver where the seal is positioned is a hair bigger than the shaft. Then the sliding portion of the driver pushes the seal but the lips don't have much of a chance to curl backwards as they slide off the driver and onto the shaft.

    I was lucky I discovered the usefulness of the film canister because otherwise it would have been a big problem. With these feather-edged seals not only does the seal need to go in the right direction, the lip needs to be curled inward and often driving the seal will naturally cause the lip to curl the wrong way.

    I've personally seen folks suffer this very same mistake on Airhead crankshaft seals at least a half dozen times.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  11. #11
    Moondog
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    Paul saves the day again! Fixing a leaking crankshaft to timing chain cover seal and wondered how I was going to do this. The idea of the film cannister is brillant. I had worked a small funnel down to the same size but a friend visited and said lets see what the MOA site says. And here was this thread. Resurected again. I hope it works as well on a K1100RS engine. I'll find out tomorrow when said friend brings over film case. I don't have that tool in my tool box.

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