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Thread: K1100 Spline Lube Assistance

  1. #1
    Registered User tourunigo's Avatar
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    K1100 Spline Lube Assistance

    ... today I started the disassembly of parts, aligned appropriated supports, have correct Moly etc but have come to a standstill so advice needed. The FD is all clear to come out but a very large nut (outside) and Heg (inside) look like they hold things in place. Althought the nut is now off, the inside hex is larger than any I have. (what is size of nut and inside Hex?) I looks like these two (I believe them to not be connected as a single piece) items should come off in order to remove FD. Is this so? Also, the outside threaded part (which had the nut on it) seems to have a smaller hex spot inside. I really don't want to mess with it until I know exactly how to proceed. Any info that I am able to obtain seems to be focused on a K75. So, can someone guide me through these particular waters? Thanks. -Bob
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    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... today I started the disassembly of parts, aligned appropriated supports, have correct Moly etc but have come to a standstill so advice needed. The FD is all clear to come out but a very large nut (outside) and Heg (inside) look like they hold things in place. Althought the nut is now off, the inside hex is larger than any I have. (what is size of nut and inside Hex?) I looks like these two (I believe them to not be connected as a single piece) items should come off in order to remove FD. Is this so? Also, the outside threaded part (which had the nut on it) seems to have a smaller hex spot inside. I really don't want to mess with it until I know exactly how to proceed. Any info that I am able to obtain seems to be focused on a K75. So, can someone guide me through these particular waters? Thanks. -Bob
    12mm hex driver with a 1/2" drive to go on your breaker (bad term) bar.

    30mm socket for the nut.

    The stub axle on the right side and the movable pivot on the left side may be fastened with red (high strength) thread locker so heat may be needed. Slow and easy with a heat gun or very, very carefully with a torch.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
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    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... today I started the disassembly of parts, aligned appropriated supports, have correct Moly etc but have come to a standstill so advice needed. The FD is all clear to come out but a very large nut (outside) and Heg (inside) look like they hold things in place. Althought the nut is now off, the inside hex is larger than any I have. (what is size of nut and inside Hex?) I looks like these two (I believe them to not be connected as a single piece) items should come off in order to remove FD. Is this so? Also, the outside threaded part (which had the nut on it) seems to have a smaller hex spot inside. I really don't want to mess with it until I know exactly how to proceed. Any info that I am able to obtain seems to be focused on a K75. So, can someone guide me through these particular waters? Thanks. -Bob
    Those are the pivot pins holding the drive and the pivot bearings in place. The nut comes off and then the inside pin is a fine thread as is the pin on the other side. They are installed with locktite and the swingarm must be heated to abt 200 degrees F (decompose the locktite) to take them out. It is easy to damage the threads otherwise. Some just pull the trans-swingarm-bevel back as a unit to get to the transmission input splines.
    BMWMotorcycles, fun when they're running...
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    Jack Hawley MOA and RA #224, KE9UW ("Chuck")

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    Registered User tourunigo's Avatar
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    ... this is very helpful. Thanks to both of you. Further to this: the outside fine thread which has the nut moves freely. No lock-tight in sight. I do not have the correct hex size for the inner pivot yet but that tomorrow. Will heat accordingly if required (as per your cautions). The outside pivot is moveable but I notice that I can bottom it out. My question is: is there a standard back-off point for this whereby the nut locks things in place?

    Related question: I notice that when I turn the wheel disk forward and back there is a distance between full forward and full back. This movement likely has a spec and, if out, an adjustment. Would you know how to determine normal movement from excessive movement?

    Assistance very much appreciated. -Bob
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  5. #5
    Registered User tourunigo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjack View Post
    Some just pull the trans-swingarm-bevel back as a unit to get to the transmission input splines.
    Could you elaborate on this point a bit Jack? Thanks. -Bob
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    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... this is very helpful. Thanks to both of you. Further to this: the outside fine thread which has the nut moves freely. No lock-tight in sight. I do not have the correct hex size for the inner pivot yet but that tomorrow. Will heat accordingly if required (as per your cautions). The outside pivot is moveable but I notice that I can bottom it out. My question is: is there a standard back-off point for this whereby the nut locks things in place?

    Related question: I notice that when I turn the wheel disk forward and back there is a distance between full forward and full back. This movement likely has a spec and, if out, an adjustment. Would you know how to determine normal movement from excessive movement?

    Assistance very much appreciated. -Bob
    First - Reinstallation:

    Properly phase the universal joints when you engage the two parts of the driveshaft. See the forum thread "Balancing Universal Joints." The software won't let me post the picture a 2nd time even though I renamed it.

    Align the pivot pins/stub axles into the pivot bearings. Apply thread locker to the fixed pivot and tighten it to the specified torque - 77 ft.lb from memory but check the spec.

    Apply threadlocker and tighten the movable pivot till it just feels snug, back off, and then torque to the specified torque - 5 or 6 ft.lb. from memory but check the spec.

    Go have a cup of coffee, eat lunch, go for a walk, whatever for at least 1/2 hour. Then tighten the locknut to the specified torque - again 77 ft.lb. from memory but check the spec. The reason for the wait is so the threadlocker can harden. Then you can tighten the locknut without further tightening the movable pivot. I mark it with paint so I can tell for sure that it didn't tighten and over pre-load the bearings.

    Next - wheel rotation:

    When you move the disk or wheel in a forward rotation you are taking up play at several locations including the ring and pinion, driveshaft splines, gear lash internal to the transmission, splined shaft/gear connections inside the transmission, and the clutch hub splines. Eventually you will take up all the little bits of play in that direction as you bump up against engine rotation. Then when you turn it back the other way you reverse taking up all those individual little bits of play turning everything the opposite direction until you again bump up against turning the engine.

    I have never seen a spec for measurement at the tire or wheel or disk because such an aggregate spec won't tell a technician where a problem might be. In practice moving the tread of a tire 1-3/4 to 2 inches isn't unusual.
    Last edited by PGlaves; 01-19-2008 at 04:34 AM.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
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    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... this is very helpful. Thanks to both of you. Further to this: the outside fine thread which has the nut moves freely. No lock-tight in sight. I do not have the correct hex size for the inner pivot yet but that tomorrow. Will heat accordingly if required (as per your cautions). The outside pivot is moveable but I notice that I can bottom it out. My question is: is there a standard back-off point for this whereby the nut locks things in place?

    Related question: I notice that when I turn the wheel disk forward and back there is a distance between full forward and full back. This movement likely has a spec and, if out, an adjustment. Would you know how to determine normal movement from excessive movement?

    Assistance very much appreciated. -Bob
    The inside bearing pivot pin is fixed. That's the one on the wheel side. It must be reinstalled with locktite and torqued to 150 Nm. Be careful not to hang up on the inner race of the bearing and push it into the needle ends. The outside pin is the "loose bearing pin" and must be reinstalled with locktite and torqued to 7 Nm. Then the lock nut is installed on it and torqued to 105 Nm being careful not to move the pin. The 7 Nm sets a small preload on the bearings so that there is no side play in the bevel to swingarm pivoting.
    As to the wheel play, there usually seems to be more than you would expect. This is somewhat affected by careful shimming inside the bevel and should not require any attention unless the inside gear set is changed. It is also hard to determine the play unless you fix the input to the bevel since the driveshaft and transmission are moving too.
    I have heard/seen of folks not disassembling the bevel from the swingarm and even both from the transmission. They just pull the whole three parts still attached to each other to the rear and reach into the spline and grease it (sparingly so it doesn't spin out on the clutch disk). This is not a thorough cleaning and greasing and many don't approve of it. Also, unless you disassemble, you cannot access your drive shaft u joints and splines which are sometimes worn to the point of replacement of the driveshaft.
    Also, it is good for you to read some repair manuals such as Clymer and Haynes and as well the less detailed BMW repair for this job. Even if you don't follow their instructions to the letter (and they can even be erroneous), it is good to read (and ask as you are doing). There may also be some procedures on the IBMWR site for this.
    BMWMotorcycles, fun when they're running...
    My other bike is a BMW.
    Jack Hawley MOA and RA #224, KE9UW ("Chuck")

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    Registered User tourunigo's Avatar
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    ... just excellent! Thank you both for this articulate information. While I have been somewhat proficient with my old /5, the K has thrust me into a new arena and my confidence remains a tad shaky. However, Jack, one point which maybe you and Paul could comment on: Jack said "The outside pin is the "loose bearing pin" and must be reinstalled with locktite and torqued to 7 Nm. Then the lock nut is installed on it and torqued to 105 Nm being careful not to move the pin. The 7 Nm sets a small preload on the bearings so that there is no side play in the bevel to swingarm pivoting." Question: back off a 1/4 turn (for example) or pre-load at 7Nm and no back off? When I disassembled it was set at 1/4 turn off.

    Now I really owe both beer and Scotch! -Bob
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    K Bikes Complex by Choice cjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... just excellent! Thank you both for this articulate information. While I have been somewhat proficient with my old /5, the K has thrust me into a new arena and my confidence remains a tad shaky. However, Jack, one point which maybe you and Paul could comment on: Jack said "The outside pin is the "loose bearing pin" and must be reinstalled with locktite and torqued to 7 Nm. Then the lock nut is installed on it and torqued to 105 Nm being careful not to move the pin. The 7 Nm sets a small preload on the bearings so that there is no side play in the bevel to swingarm pivoting." Question: back off a 1/4 turn (for example) or pre-load at 7Nm and no back off? When I disassembled it was set at 1/4 turn off.

    Now I really owe both beer and Scotch! -Bob
    I have never heard of any back off on this pin. You don't want any play there. I do know what you are saying though where the pre-load takes up any play in the bearings and then backing off eases the pre-load some. However, I checked the BMW K1100 repair manual just to be sure and BMW doesn't specify any back off. 7 Nm on the pin and then the nut to 105Nm. Paul mentioned a good way to prevent the pin rotating by waiting for the locktite to set up. And mark it to check.
    BMWMotorcycles, fun when they're running...
    My other bike is a BMW.
    Jack Hawley MOA and RA #224, KE9UW ("Chuck")

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    Benchwrenching PGlaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    ... just excellent! Thank you both for this articulate information. While I have been somewhat proficient with my old /5, the K has thrust me into a new arena and my confidence remains a tad shaky. However, Jack, one point which maybe you and Paul could comment on: Jack said "The outside pin is the "loose bearing pin" and must be reinstalled with locktite and torqued to 7 Nm. Then the lock nut is installed on it and torqued to 105 Nm being careful not to move the pin. The 7 Nm sets a small preload on the bearings so that there is no side play in the bevel to swingarm pivoting." Question: back off a 1/4 turn (for example) or pre-load at 7Nm and no back off? When I disassembled it was set at 1/4 turn off.

    Now I really owe both beer and Scotch! -Bob
    You want to slightly overtorque - I say "snug" - then back off and retighten to the spec - 7 nm. This is common with bearings where you want to make sure you are really feeling the torque needed to preload and not some needed to make sure the bearing is fully seated, or resistance from a dirty thread. And as I mentioned earlier - let the threadlocker on the pivot sit for a while before you tighten the locknut so the pin doesn't turn in further and overtighten the bearing.
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://www.bigbend.net/users/glaves

  11. #11
    Registered User tourunigo's Avatar
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    Now I get a very clear picture and will finish job today or tomorrow. Given what you have stated it is interesting to note that when I took this apart the adjustable pin had no locktite and was a quarter turn away from snug to bearing. Two years ago I had some work done on clutch and transmission input shaft at a local 'dealer'. In this work they replaced bearings along the drive train as needed. It appears that this pin was not reset as you describe. Anyway, thanks again. -Bob
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  12. #12
    Dances With Sheep GREGFEELER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourunigo View Post
    Now I get a very clear picture and will finish job today or tomorrow. Given what you have stated it is interesting to note that when I took this apart the adjustable pin had no locktite and was a quarter turn away from snug to bearing. Two years ago I had some work done on clutch and transmission input shaft at a local 'dealer'. In this work they replaced bearings along the drive train as needed. It appears that this pin was not reset as you describe. Anyway, thanks again. -Bob
    Take a careful look at the rear drive pivot bearings. These wear out and many people replace them with bushings instead, like these:
    http://www.rubberchickenracinggarage.com/bushings.html
    Greg Feeler
    BMW MOA Director & Ambassador
    1972 R75/5, 1990 K75, 1990 K1, 1992 K75S, 2003 K1200RS

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