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coloktmGS
04-29-2010, 02:27 PM
Anyone seen this article from MCN? Is it going to actually happen, a death to the air cooled boxer?

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2010/April/apr2310-bmw-gears-up-for-liquid-cooled-gs/

Thoughts?

deilenberger
04-29-2010, 04:42 PM
"Insiders" - looks like a buncha'hooey to me. The article misses the fact that BMW gave up on air-cooled engines back in 1994 when the R1100 engine was first introduced as an OIL-cooled boxer engine.

Everything else (nothing really) in the article is factually correct (not.) :bolt

oldhway
04-29-2010, 05:16 PM
"Insiders" - looks like a buncha'hooey to me. The article misses the fact that BMW gave up on air-cooled engines back in 1994 when the R1100 engine was first introduced as an OIL-cooled boxer engine.

Everything else (nothing really) in the article is factually correct (not.) :bolt

Well, since we are talking semantics, the current boxer is Air and Oil cooled with air being the predominant cooling medium. Calling it Air Cooled is not incorrect. I would not be surprised if the article has some basis in reality.

88bmwjeff
04-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Well, since we are talking semantics, the current boxer is Air and Oil cooled with air being the predominant cooling medium. Calling it Air Cooled is not incorrect. I would not be surprised if the article has some basis in reality.

I remember reading a few years ago when the emission requirements for Europe first came out that the air/oil cooled boxer probably wouldn't meet the standards. I don't think BMW would kill the boxer engine all together, so a water cooled version may replace it. That being said, there are some purists who would balk at such a change. Just as the airhead purists rag on the oilhead, etc.

Just speculating here guys.

deilenberger
04-29-2010, 05:26 PM
Well, since we are talking semantics, the current boxer is Air and Oil cooled with air being the predominant cooling medium. Calling it Air Cooled is not incorrect. I would not be surprised if the article has some basis in reality.I actually don't agree. The vestigial fins on the cylinders are for show.. as are the fins on the valve covers. The only ones that might do some cooling are those on the head, and even they are minimalist compared to the airhead engines.

The fact that the authority bikes can, and do, idle for long periods of time without any tendency to overheat just by the addition of some cooling fans on the oil cooler pretty much proves this.. as does the addition on the R1200 engines of a secondary oil pump and oil circuit just for moving the oil through the oil cooler(s)..

Might there be some aircooling going on? Mebbe - but not much more then would be if the cooling medium was water.

deilenberger
04-29-2010, 05:28 PM
I remember reading a few years ago when the emission requirements for Europe first came out that the air/oil cooled boxer probably wouldn't meet the standards.
I remember that also - and it was also speculation and rumors. The fact that BMW introduced the R1200 engine AFTER these regulations took effect means that they DID manage to meet the standards without going to water cooling.

Same story, same rumors, new day. Same validity IMHO - none.

widebmw
04-29-2010, 05:31 PM
Well, since we are talking semantics, the current boxer is Air and Oil cooled with air being the predominant cooling medium. Calling it Air Cooled is not incorrect. I would not be surprised if the article has some basis in reality.

Then every engine is Air Cooled by fins, oil radiator, water radiator.

mika
04-29-2010, 05:33 PM
It does not surprise me.

I wonder if the other magazine in question is http://bmwmcmag.com/magazine/ who has just taken on Sandy?

Semantics aside the Cam Head attempts to address some of the efficient burning and other emissions issues. It may not be able to get BMW across the new testing hurdles in some markets such as the EU that are going to a test model that attempts to better reflect emissions in the real world than the current dyno testing does. Cool temp concerns would be a bigger issue in those tests that the revised head may not be able to deal with.

In the end ÔÇô
The world did not end when the oil head came into play replacing the pure airhead.
Rather a case of ÔÇô The King is dead long live the King ÔÇô I expect the same if this story is based in fact.

:lurk

oldhway
04-29-2010, 06:06 PM
I expect the next iteration will be some sort of liquid cooled cylinder head first.

When Suzuki introduced the 1985 GSXR750R it was the first modern engine to use Air/oil cooling. If you look at the design om both that and the oilhead boxers, You see large capacity oil coolers and additional oil passages through the engine to get oil to the hot spots (valve seats, back of piston crown, etc.) and maintain temps.

I am not disagreeing as to the effectiveness. I think it is a simple and fairly elegant design. But the water jackets around the cylinders and heads in a "liquid cooled engine" are a whole different beast and with the use of thermostats and electric cooling fans can maintain very precise engine temps.

Apples and oranges.

testinglogin
04-29-2010, 07:30 PM
They are still making Airhead parts and both of mine run just fine, so I'm not going to worry too much, either way. :D

The_Veg
05-02-2010, 08:22 PM
So-

If we assume for a moment that the liquid-cooled engine is eventually coming, does mean that it'll be...
































wait for it..............


















































The WetHead? :laugh

Bud
05-02-2010, 10:18 PM
That is so BAAAADDDD.

Sounds like fuzzy headed thinking to me!:laugh

jurgen
05-02-2010, 11:31 PM
"Insiders" - looks like a buncha'hooey to me. The article misses the fact that BMW gave up on air-cooled engines back in 1994 when the R1100 engine was first introduced as an OIL-cooled boxer engine.

Everything else (nothing really) in the article is factually correct (not.) :bolt

What about the R100RS Airheads? They had oil coolers too because the airhead design could no longer handle the increased power.

I think the culprit is the environment: The engines must run leaner and leaner (and should, anyway) so more of the cooling effect from the fuel goes away.
Also, the race to squeeze more and more horspower out of the same displacement to keep up with the Asian and south-of-the German border competition does not help either.

Water cooling is technologically easier than oil cooling, also, it saves horsepower to not have to pump heavy oil through the coolers and to places in the engine where it is not needed for lubrication at all. That's what oil should be used for, a lubricant rather than a coolant.

lkchris
05-02-2010, 11:37 PM
I think the culprit is the environment:

The "culprit" is noise regulations.

aaaaaa
05-03-2010, 12:07 AM
I remember reading a few years ago when the emission requirements for Europe first came out that the air/oil cooled boxer probably wouldn't meet the standards. I don't think BMW would kill the boxer engine all together, so a water cooled version may replace it. That being said, there are some purists who would balk at such a change. Just as the airhead purists rag on the oilhead, etc.

Just speculating here guys.


And not with some little justification I might add.
aaaaaa slash7

carockwell
05-03-2010, 06:24 AM
More than 35% of the cooling in your car engine comes from heat radiating from the engine compartment, separate from the cooling that comes from the radiator. Hanging the cylinders out in the open breeze probably bumps that up to at least 50% with no air cooling fins or oil radiator at all. The only disadvantage of using oil as a coolant is a lower heat transfer capacity compared to water. This means you have to pump the oil through the system faster than you would water. One significant issue with water vs oil cooling is that water's heat transfer ability is lowered when used with the ethylene glycol coolant. The difference between oil and water cooing is not that great. Boxer engines can probably survive into the future just fine the way they are today.

Motodan
05-03-2010, 10:38 AM
global heating, that couple of degree warmer global temp will melt every Air-head by 2022. We will be out of oil for oil cooling by 2047 and next is water, which should be gone by 2087.

HOWEVER, Anheuser-Busch InBev N.V. (AB InBev), is working with BMW to develop a beer based product that will cool both man and machine. Thank the barley gods for research.

jeff488
05-04-2010, 12:08 AM
I thought the "Wet Head" was dead.:rolleyes

(With lip service apologies to some hair spray company from the 70's).

cwilson
05-04-2010, 02:11 AM
You know that liquid cooled GS could be a prototype, the first K bike didn't show up overnight.

bikerfish1100
05-04-2010, 03:08 AM
global heating, that couple of degree warmer global temp will melt every Air-head by 2022. We will be out of oil for oil cooling by 2047 and next is water, which should be gone by 2087.

HOWEVER, Anheuser-Busch InBev N.V. (AB InBev), is working with BMW to develop a beer based product that will cool both man and machine. Thank the barley gods for research.

that rumor is totally false. i mean, c'mon. before AB can work on a beer-cooled machine with BMW, they would have to learn how to brew beer. Now, if you said they were working on a bovine urine based cooling system, that i could believe.

geisterfahrer
05-04-2010, 09:54 PM
that rumor is totally false. i mean, c'mon. before AB can work on a beer-cooled machine with BMW, they would have to learn how to brew beer. Now, if you said they were working on a bovine urine based cooling system, that i could believe.

I thought it was Clydesdale urine. Clydesdales with kidney infections. :hungover

bikerfish1100
05-05-2010, 03:27 AM
I thought it was Clydesdale urine. Clydesdales with kidney infections. :hungover

that would only be in their high-end "specialty" brews.

SandyC
05-06-2010, 01:59 AM
It does not surprise me.

I wonder if the other magazine in question is http://bmwmcmag.com/magazine/ who has just taken on Sandy?

Semantics aside the Cam Head attempts to address some of the efficient burning and other emissions issues. It may not be able to get BMW across the new testing hurdles in some markets such as the EU that are going to a test model that attempts to better reflect emissions in the real world than the current dyno testing does. Cool temp concerns would be a bigger issue in those tests that the revised head may not be able to deal with.

In the end ÔÇô
The world did not end when the oil head came into play replacing the pure airhead.
Rather a case of ÔÇô The King is dead long live the King ÔÇô I expect the same if this story is based in fact.

:lurk

Youre right it's BMW Motorcycle Magazine that MCN is referring to: "Insiders at the Munich development centre let slip to a specialist German BMW magazine that a top-secret project is underway..." The inside info about an upcoming water-cooled boxer is in the Spring issue of BMW Motorcycle Magazine, now available. We have both an article investigating it as well as an interview with Dr. Christian Landerl, Director of Development for BMW Motorcycles, discussing the water-cooled boxer engine specifically as the "Next Generation." Its great reading. Check out the table of contents of our Spring issue on our website.

Sandy
Editor, BMW Motorcycle Magazine
bmwmcmag.com

47512
05-06-2010, 02:00 AM
I think a beer thread would just as much fun, and make just about the same sense as another oil thread.

Ken G.

hexst
05-07-2010, 12:30 AM
It's spring time for the "BMW is giving up on the boxer engine thread".

dlowry
05-09-2010, 02:48 PM
When Suzuki introduced the 1985 GSXR750R it was the first modern engine to use Air/oil cooling. If you look at the design om both that and the oilhead boxers, You see large capacity oil coolers and additional oil passages through the engine to get oil to the hot spots (valve seats, back of piston crown, etc.) and maintain temps.


Hey Oldhway, the 1983 Suzuki XN85D Turbo was Air/Oil cooled. Yes, the GSXR was innovative with it's frame, but the engine and suspension technology came from other sources in the Suzuki line-up.


Personally, I'd welcome a "water" cooled version of the boxer. The engine would still have the ornamental fins on the cylinders that it has today, but in heavy traffic it would keep the engine temperature much cooler than it does today. I've had the oil temp nearly max out during a hot summer's day in traffic and pulled over to let it cool down for a while. Hmm, come to think of it, the Turbo has never gotten as hot as the RT has in traffic...

typ181r90
05-22-2010, 04:50 PM
Just got my issue of BMW Motorcycle Mag and it's true :-/

lkchris
05-23-2010, 09:20 PM
I've had the oil temp nearly max out during a hot summer's day in traffic and pulled over to let it cool down for a while.

Why not install the Police oil cooler fan?

rob nye
05-24-2010, 01:20 PM
I thought it was Clydesdale urine. Clydesdales with kidney infections. :hungover

As a fellow TDI owner did you know there is a urea tank in the new versions?

Q: What is urea injection?
A: In order to reduce nitrous oxides, the Volkswagen Touareg TDI uses a urea injection process in addition to particulate filters. Urea is a chemical compound that, when used in an exhaust system, creates ammonia and reduces NOx ÔÇô up to 95 percent when it comes to the Touareg TDI.

I understand that in order to get the car imported into the US VW set up the new TDI's with sensors that check the level in the tank. If the urea tank is empty a warning light comes on and you have a specific range before the car is electronically disabled. The urea tank is refilled at the scheduled oil change which is 10,000 miles.

osbornk
05-24-2010, 07:06 PM
BMW hasn 't made an air-cooled engine since 95. The oilhead/hexhead engines are air assisted cooling since much of the cooling is done by the oil.

widebmw
05-24-2010, 07:22 PM
BMW hasn 't made an air-cooled engine since 95. The oilhead/hexhead engines are air assisted cooling since much of the cooling is done by the oil.

The last airhead was made in December of 1996 is was a 1997 R80GS basic.
Most of the R80GS Basic's went to South Africa.

Visian
05-25-2010, 10:10 AM
Most of the R80GS Basic's went to South Africa.

despite my best effort... :bluduh

ian

ka5ysy
05-25-2010, 12:10 PM
As a fellow TDI owner did you know there is a urea tank in the new versions?

Q: What is urea injection?
A: In order to reduce nitrous oxides, the Volkswagen Touareg TDI uses a urea injection process in addition to particulate filters. Urea is a chemical compound that, when used in an exhaust system, creates ammonia and reduces NOx ÔÇô up to 95 percent when it comes to the Touareg TDI.

I understand that in order to get the car imported into the US VW set up the new TDI's with sensors that check the level in the tank. If the urea tank is empty a warning light comes on and you have a specific range before the car is electronically disabled. The urea tank is refilled at the scheduled oil change which is 10,000 miles.

Since this is a BMW board, I would like to say that BMW makes a nice diesel that uses the urea injection also. My X5-35d uses that system and gets 30mpg to boot ! And, it drives like a BMW :thumb

Is is OK to tow the R1200R behind the X5 sometime?:scratch

rob nye
05-25-2010, 12:33 PM
despite my best effort... :bluduh

ian

They would have been an instant classic if sold here.

I took a wonderful 50 mile ride on local roads on the PD yesterday. No maps, no gps just random turns for a nice evening ride.




Since this is a BMW board, I would like to say that BMW makes a nice diesel that uses the urea injection also. My X5-35d uses that system and gets 30mpg to boot ! And, it drives like a BMW :thumb

Is is OK to tow the R1200R behind the X5 sometime?:scratch

Perhaps if I'm really good when my third son graduates from college I'll get one of those X5's.

Right now it's a VW and I love it.

As to the towing the R no hassle from me, I'm looking for a good hitch for the TDI.

Best to have a trailer available to retrieve all those aircooled motorcycles BMW is going to kill or to take cruddy magazines to the recycling station. :whistle :laugh

Visian
05-25-2010, 12:37 PM
Since this is a BMW board, I would like to say that BMW makes a nice diesel that uses the urea injection also.

urea..... ewwwwwww.

how about you just pee into the fuel tank? :dunno

ANDYVH
05-25-2010, 02:00 PM
Pee in the tank,......no quite. Funny though. The urea used in modern diesels is a specific manufactured blend, not at all like cow pee or the Urea fertilizer (HIGHLY corrosive by the way) you can buy at farm/implement/grainery suppliers. Modern diesels like truck engines will run the urea at about a 20 to 1 ratio, 20 gallons deisel fuel to one ounce of Urea, which is presented into the exhaust stream and burned in the exhaust afterburner.

EMSimon
05-25-2010, 02:39 PM
... Modern diesels like truck engines will run the urea at about a 20 to 1 ratio, 20 gallons deisel fuel to one ounce of Urea, .

That would actually be a 2560:1 ratio, if I still understand basic math:scratch

The water (liquid) cooled boxer will be coming because there is no other way to address the problems with thermal balance considering the requirements for performance dictated by competitive marketing. As almost all of the heat dissipation takes place in the heads, liquid cooled heads will do.
The last classic vehicle air-cooled vehicle that had a huge following was the Porsche 911 with the flat six. It also changed to liquid cooled (heads) and - surprise, surprise - almost all the fans remained loyal.

lkchris
05-28-2010, 03:45 PM
That would actually be a 2560:1 ratio, if I still understand basic math:scratch

The water (liquid) cooled boxer will be coming because there is no other way to address the problems with thermal balance considering the requirements for performance dictated by competitive marketing. As almost all of the heat dissipation takes place in the heads, liquid cooled heads will do.
The last classic vehicle air-cooled vehicle that had a huge following was the Porsche 911 with the flat six. It also changed to liquid cooled (heads) and - surprise, surprise - almost all the fans remained loyal.

Again--it's noise regulations.

Water is a nice sound absorber.

Porsche made 1000hp aircooled racecar engines with no problems--you can look it up.

Visian
05-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Again--it's noise regulations.

Water is a nice sound absorber.

Porsche made 1000hp aircooled racecar engines with no problems--you can look it up.

... and they sounded *nasty as hell* :german

NavyCWO
05-28-2010, 04:17 PM
I have a 2006 VW TDI Jetta. I now get about 39mpg. Before the diesel formula was changed, I consistantly got 42 mpg. Still get reasonably good mileage....and I don't have to pee in a tank to get it!

The_Veg
05-29-2010, 02:53 PM
Why not install the Police oil cooler fan?

Anybody have a picture of one of these? I wonder if it'll fit in my GS. Living in the south, my engine gets pretty toasty too.

lkchris
05-29-2010, 03:08 PM
Anybody have a picture of one of these? I wonder if it'll fit in my GS. Living in the south, my engine gets pretty toasty too.

From ETK ...

lkchris
05-29-2010, 03:10 PM
I have a 2006 VW TDI Jetta. I now get about 39mpg. Before the diesel formula was changed, I consistantly got 42 mpg. Still get reasonably good mileage....and I don't have to pee in a tank to get it!

Ah, but like my New Beetle TDI, it's a gross (and I mean gross) polluter.

My GL320CDI with Diesel Particulate Filter (but pre-AdBlue) doesn't smell, doesn't smoke, and doesn't even dust up the chrome exhaust extensions.

The_Veg
05-29-2010, 03:10 PM
Thanks Kent.

mpmarty
05-31-2010, 11:53 PM
Thanks all the same Motorrad but I'll pass on water cooling my motorcycle. To me (IMHO) buying a water-cooled motorcycle is like marrying a girl with cancer.

ka5ysy
06-01-2010, 02:58 AM
Thanks all the same Motorrad but I'll pass on water cooling my motorcycle. To me (IMHO) buying a water-cooled motorcycle is like marrying a girl with cancer.

:confused: :scratch

bikerfish1100
06-01-2010, 03:29 AM
To me (IMHO) buying a water-cooled motorcycle is like marrying a girl with cancer.

care to explain your thinking on that one?

jforgo
06-01-2010, 04:41 AM
:confused: :scratch

ironic, eh?

tinytrains
06-01-2010, 04:41 AM
I have owned a K75 for 21 years. Total cooling system maintenance: 2 gallons of coolant and 1 radiator fan (the fan wears it's self out spinning in the wind). It is clean as a whistle inside, and stays cool as a cucumber in LA traffic.

I wish my R1200R had a fan on the oil cooler.

Scott

mpmarty
06-01-2010, 02:32 PM
care to explain your thinking on that one?

Dissimilar metals suspended in a conductive medium such as water is a very poor design. Electrolysis ya know.

bikerfish1100
06-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Dissimilar metals suspended in a conductive medium such as water is a very poor design. Electrolysis ya know.

gee, guess i better sell my VW TDI and buy me a 60's era Bug.
or not.

milo
06-01-2010, 03:44 PM
Dissimilar metals suspended in a conductive medium such as water is a very poor design. Electrolysis ya know.

Not water, coolant.

On a different note I found an article by Kevin Cameron, I believe a couple years ago, interesting. In it he pointed out how water cooling is actually lighter than air cooling. The weight of the coolant, hoses, and water pump is more than off-set by the thicker castings and fins needed for air cooling.

tinytrains
06-01-2010, 04:00 PM
Dissimilar metals suspended in a conductive medium such as water is a very poor design. Electrolysis ya know.

This is true of iron block engines. With the exception of the water pump impeller, the entire cooling system on a K bike is aluminum. Head, cylinders, and radiator.

As I said, my 21 year old system looks like new inside.

Rudyjo
06-01-2010, 08:51 PM
Thanks all the same Motorrad but I'll pass on water cooling my motorcycle. To me (IMHO) buying a water-cooled motorcycle is like marrying a girl with cancer.

MPMARTY; What kind of car do you drive?

Bigrider
06-02-2010, 01:20 AM
I tried water cooling my airhead, it just takes too long to dry off.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

bikerfish1100
06-02-2010, 02:07 AM
I tried water cooling my airhead, it just takes too long to dry off.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

you need to take it out and blow dry it after water-cooling initiatives.

ka5ysy
06-02-2010, 02:40 AM
I tried water cooling my airhead, it just takes too long to dry off.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

You are obviously not going fast enough to do the job properly :ha

jasontdi
06-02-2010, 03:26 AM
I have a 2006 VW TDI Jetta. I now get about 39mpg. Before the diesel formula was changed, I consistently got 42 mpg. Still get reasonably good mileage....and I don't have to pee in a tank to get it!(spelling correction)

You need a cam and lifter inspection. It's not the fuel.....trust me as a TDI Guru.

They are disintegrating at an alarming rate. Especially if you use the 5w30 Castrol garbage dealer oil.

Sorry for the side track...

RINTY
06-02-2010, 01:16 PM
It also changed to liquid cooled (heads)...ima4nr


Porsche made 1000 hp air cooled race car engines...lkchris

Porsche was forced to introduce liquid cooling in its M96/01 engines, as it found it could not adequately cool four valve cylinder heads with air/oil. Porsche needed the new heads to achieve higher specific power outputs, and meet current and future emission standards.

One of the other reasons was to reduce noise.


...water cooling is actually lighter than air cooling...ridewv

And the new (996) cars were about 50 kg lighter than their (993) predecessors.


Almost all the fans remained loyal...ima4nr

But the air cooled enthusiasts love to take shots at the water pumpers. Which is similar to one of the themes around here...:D


...lower heat capacity compared to water...careckwell

I've always understood that oil is an inferior fluid for transferring heat. I had a look at some heat transfer co-efficient tables for oil and water, and it's about 1 to 4. If I understand the tables correctly, oil also has less ability to hold heat.

But the resident physicists can correct me. :)

ragtoplvr
06-02-2010, 05:54 PM
It is true that equivalent volumes of oil does not carry as much heat as water. However, the system is the real figure of merit.

Oil can cool a head very well, it might will need a bit larger passages. Oil will not boil at any temperature you would want to operate at, water has been known to make stem pockets. There are also issues with water additives and corrosion. OIl will warm faster than water, and this is an advantage.

An oil cooling system can move as much heat as a water system, things need to be different sizes and pressures is all.

Rod

EMSimon
06-03-2010, 02:58 PM
I have the equivalent of a U.S. master's degree (a German Dipl.Ing earned at the TH Darmstadt) in mechanical engineering and majored in internal combustion engines (Verbrennungsmotoren). I work in the motor vehicle industry.
I'm always asking myself why companies pay money to employ engineers, if the only thing they would have to do is signing up on a handful of forums on the internet and they would get all the know-how and secrets they would need to design engines and vehicles.....:thumb

rickyd
06-03-2010, 05:12 PM
Don't know if BM will do it but I think it would make a lot of sense. The fuel mileage I get on my '06 RT is quite temperature sensitive, since the engine control unit calls for richer mixture in the cold. I average about 55 mpg above 60 degrees and nearly 10 mpg less when its cold. Better fuel mileage is a good thing, no?

lkchris
06-04-2010, 02:53 PM
I have the equivalent of a U.S. master's degree (a German Dipl.Ing earned at the TH Darmstadt) in mechanical engineering and majored in internal combustion engines (Verbrennungsmotoren). I work in the motor vehicle industry.
I'm always asking myself why companies pay money to employ engineers, if the only thing they would have to do is signing up on a handful of forums on the internet and they would get all the know-how and secrets they would need to design engines and vehicles.....:thumb

Hey, all you have to do is read a magazine article--or some advertising copy--and you're good to go.

Then, if you own a motorcyle, well ... .

RINTY
06-05-2010, 05:05 AM
...they would get all the know-how...ima4nr

But keeping in mind that it's non peer-reviewed opinion.:)

ragtoplvr
06-05-2010, 12:50 PM
To me, one of the nicer things about the boxer is the low heat that it sends to the rider in the summer. It seems to me that any watercooled bike I have ridden, the heat from the radiator is oppressive. When the fan kicks in, even worse.

Next are V twins, the back cylinder and pipe are not in a good place heat wise

Depending on how they position and duct the radiator, they can make hot weather even more miserable than it already is.

So I vote for continued air oil cooling

Rod

RINTY
06-05-2010, 03:16 PM
...depending on how they position and duct the radiator...ragtoplvr

For me, that would be the main concern, with a liquid cooled boxer.


The vestigial fins on the cylinders are for show...as are the fins on the valve covers...deilenberger

My understanding is that there is comparatively little heat generated in the "lower" parts of the cylinders. And the valve cover fins are a couple of millimetres deep, at best.


Yes, it's BMW Motorcycle Magazine that MCN is referring to...SandyC

Nice scoop, Sandy! Good luck with the new position. :thumb

The_Veg
06-05-2010, 04:02 PM
To me, one of the nicer things about the boxer is the low heat that it sends to the rider in the summer. It seems to me that any watercooled bike I have ridden, the heat from the radiator is oppressive. When the fan kicks in, even worse.

Yeah...I really did love my K100RT...except on summer days in TexSux...


Depending on how they position and duct the radiator, they can make hot weather even more miserable than it already is.

On the other hand, I was devising schemes for ducting the radiator-heat into my jacket for winter riding.

easy
06-06-2010, 02:08 PM
"Insiders at the Munich development centre let slip to a specialist German BMW magazine that a top-secret project is underway to replace the air-cooled engine that can trace its ancestry back to the first boxer BMW bikes nearly 90 years ago with a new liquid-cooled replacement."

Is it from insiders? Yes, but a slip? From an organization that is as tight lipped as BMW, can they let something like a "top secret" project slip, with the director of development giving an interview about it?

I understand the reason why BMW would be working on a water cooled boxer. Now days you either stay ahead of your opponent or get left behind. And I like the idea of BMW not being glued to yesterdayÔÇÖs technology at the expense of ride and performance.

But regardless of whether their sampling public opinion, or easing the shock they've at least got all of us talking which may be the real motivation.

And I'm glad Sandy got the scoop. You go girl............

Easy :german

RINTY
06-06-2010, 02:45 PM
...let slip...Easy

It's probably just artistic license. :)

fracture
06-07-2010, 11:46 AM
To me, one of the nicer things about the boxer is the low heat that it sends to the rider in the summer. It seems to me that any watercooled bike I have ridden, the heat from the radiator is oppressive. When the fan kicks in, even worse.

Next are V twins, the back cylinder and pipe are not in a good place heat wise

Depending on how they position and duct the radiator, they can make hot weather even more miserable than it already is.

So I vote for continued air oil cooling

Rod

Agree about the boxer engine. I feel some heat on my lower legs, but not enough to make summer riding miserable. This is one reason I keep an airhead. I have yet to ride any other bike in the summer and feel less engine heat than what I get from the boxer engine.

My K100 was a blast furnace in the summer. I could not wait to get off that thing. And as was stated, when that fan kicked in, I thought a blowtorch was under me.

With regard to engine heat reaching the rider, one of the best water cooled bikes I had was a Triumph Trophy 900. I felt little engine heat on a summer day. The fairing venting appeared to be pretty effective in dumping heat out and away from the rider.

macfly
06-09-2010, 02:58 AM
It just isn't what I desire. I am sure it will be better, faster, cleaner etc, etc, just as the Harley/Porsche w/c bike is 'better' than their air cooled ones. How well is it selling?

I am very excited about the lo-rider concept, and really hope we see something along those lines before they water cool the boxer.

If the do force water cooling on us I will simply buy another brand, like maybe the new Norton, when it comes time to add another bike to the stable.

darrylri
06-09-2010, 04:23 AM
I looked at the article again, and also the following interview with the chief of engine design. I didn't see anything anywhere in either of those articles that said that BMW was actually doing this. No quotes, no sources, not even a mention in a general way of where inside of BMW this was supposed to be coming from.

In fact, it looked to me like someone had time on their hands and decided to update the R1 photos, then wrote a story about it.

The chief of engine design specifically said that there is life left in the air/oil cooled boxer.

Speculation is always fun, but I wouldn't worry about not being able to get a "traditional" BMW boxer for a while yet.

ragtoplvr
06-09-2010, 01:31 PM
I wonder if it is possible to use a non-conventional radiator location, say mount it low or under the engine with fans and ducting so the hot air exits low on either side of the rear tire behind the pillion foot peg. And incorporate good rock protection for the radiator(s). Maybe small radiator in front of each cylinder to keep the heat where it currently is. There are lots of possible configurations that do not involve cooking the riders

Rod

henzilla
06-09-2010, 01:50 PM
If the do force water cooling on us I will simply buy another brand

and that's how some felt when they dared changed to oil cooling and their radiators:laugh:laugh:laugh

I wouldn't rule one out until I saw the production model...

They sure came a long way since the first K bikes came out as far as heat management and looks of the radiators on the current version, so maybe no worse than the Hex Roadsters radiator looks as far as where a radiator would sit.
And I got used to that one pretty quick as well.

mneblett
06-09-2010, 02:23 PM
They sure came a long way since the first K bikes came out as far as heat management and looks of the radiators on the current version ...
Amen to that! After roasting my chestnuts on a K75RT, I was a bit concerned about heat rejection when the K12LT came out -- it turned out to be a revelation: the air was so skillfully ducted away from the rider you rarely even knew there was a heat generator sitting under the tank. It will be vewy interesting to see what they can do with an RH2ORT. :thumb

lkchris
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM
To me, one of the nicer things about the boxer is the low heat that it sends to the rider in the summer.

With respect to the earlier boxers, i.e. the Airheads, there is a LARGE difference between the nikasil and the iron engines as to heat radiated to the rider. The nikasil engines approach "inferno."

ragtoplvr
06-09-2010, 09:33 PM
Now the name the new forum contest starts

RH2ORT

Before we even have the bike!

How about Waterhead:dance

Rod

mneblett
06-09-2010, 09:53 PM
How about Waterhead:dance

Rod
Bubblehead :D




(shamelessly borrowed from the SSN/SSBN drivers :thumb )

Visian
06-10-2010, 01:15 AM
wethead :ha