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View Full Version : Roundel Patches, jeesh



criminaldesign
01-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I was at Holt's yesterday shooting the breeze. Asked Marvin if they had any roundel patches. My Dad recently got ahold of a /6 and would be a nice addition to his other patches.

Lo and behold, Marvin said BMW doesn't issue patches or anything along those lines anymore. He's says if you do find one it's bootleg and dealership shirts with the roundel are straddling the line.

Made me think of Motorrad and the MOA logo issue. My gosh, ridiculous stuff if you ask me. Afraid a rider will use the patch not in agreement to the branding guidelines. I maybe behind the times here but patches and motorcycles go hand in hand and think a company would want them out there.

sit
01-22-2010, 04:26 PM
As I travel around, I try to stop in the local shops and pick up a hat with BMW and the shop name on it, well I tried. Could not really find any hats. Was told by several places that BMW would not allow them to put the shop name on the hat with the roundel. Shirts seem to be okay though. But I have notied most of the new shirts have BMW Motorcycles on the front with nothing else. The shop logo and name are always on the back.

Was also shown some very large carpet mats at one shop that were made to be put down inside the front doors to welcome folks. Before the shop opened, BMW did their walk through and were upset that people would be walking across the roundel. The shop was told they could not have the mats on display for the public to walk on. The mats were in the shop area for the techs to walk on. By the front door? Plan black mats.

lkchris
01-22-2010, 05:36 PM
My gosh, ridiculous stuff if you ask me.

Oh, not a bit.

If a company loses control of its logo, it loses control totally and completely and forever. You have to continually/constantly demonstrate you intend to protect your property.

If you had a design as old and revered and respected as BMW's, you'd be protective, too.

A lot of things in life wouldn't be so nice without copyright, trademark, etc., protection. Think music, art, literature, shop manuals, football/baseball stuff, on and on.

No one is "entitled" to another's property.

RTFlyer
01-22-2010, 05:41 PM
Oh, not a bit.

If a company loses control of its logo, it loses control totally and completely and forever. You have to continually/constantly demonstrate you intend to protect your property.

If you had a design as old and revered and respected as BMW's, you'd be protective, too.

A lot of things in life wouldn't be so nice without copyright, trademark, etc., protection. Think music, art, literature, shop manuals, football/baseball stuff, on and on.

No one is "entitled" to another's property.

I agree, but why wouldn't BMW themselves make (or license)a roundel patch and make it easily accessible to the marketplace??? It seems to me that most of the type of other businesses/organizations that you mention strive to create brand awareness and offer an incredible amount of merchandise with their logos. I'm certain I can get an Aerosmith TM t-shirt or even Boston Red Sox TM boxer shorts very easily if I chose. I'm certain that they both think that their brand is old and revered too. Why is it like pulling teeth to get decent BMW merchandise?

motorradmike
01-22-2010, 05:51 PM
Have to agree with lkchris this time.

I have a hat but it's from BMW Lifestyle which I believe is owned by them.

darrylri
01-22-2010, 05:51 PM
I agree, but why wouldn't BMW themselves make (or license)a roundel patch???

I'm guessing I can get a Ford, Benz, Volvo, or any other logo patch from that company (or licensee) who would be happy to put their brand out there.

Unfortunately, it seems like BMW has decided to go for exclusivity. Most of the roundels you do see, like on the BMW riding gear, are tiny. Same with the key fob they sent me when I bought a new bike a couple years ago. It's the opposite approach from what Harley has done, which is to license their logo to just about every possible thing from beer to Zippo lighters.

About 15 years ago I recall hearing a story from the owner of Cascade Motorcycles about the dealer meeting he had just been to. They brought out a model wearing a leather bomber jacket with a big roundel on the back. The dealers applauded. BMW then said that this was exactly what they were NOT going to make...

This is one reason why the club logo issue continues to burn. Clubs only get to use the roundel in their approved logo, nowhere else. A part of the deal is that clubs may only sell merchandise with their logo (and hence, the roundel) to their members. A lot of clubs, therefore, make a separate line of merchandise with just their "signet", the part of the logo that is their own design. I'm part of the Vintage BMW Motorcycle Owners, and we do this. But a big red V with an R32 doesn't really mean a lot to people who aren't already interesed in vintage Beemers.

womanridge
01-22-2010, 06:08 PM
Don't mean to hijack, but I stopped in at a BMW dealer in Baden, Austria this past spring. The nice man gave me this. Their web address is on the back as well.

21376

Bud
01-22-2010, 06:32 PM
Karen,

Was that a BMW motorcycle dealer or an automobile dealer?

criminaldesign
01-22-2010, 06:55 PM
I deal with this stuff being a graphic designer. Along with creating a brand/logo, you have to produce a manual on the proper usage of brand/logo. Like how the logo will be used in black and white, color, monochromatic... all the possible different outputs.

I understand a company not wanting to loose control of their property right and logo usage. ...but a patch and similar swag? You think the company would be all about the rider/driver creating awareness like RTFlyer mentioned. Not that BMW needs awareness though.

You can go into a Harely shop and have about a gazillion different patches and such to choose from and not just the standard Harley shield. There's a ton of people out there that doesn't even have a Harley but have a handful of swag.

It just comes across a bit pretentious. I don't know. I'm beating a dead horse here. I'm going to take a ride. Later, h

Clay
01-22-2010, 07:34 PM
I have (2) different key fobs from (2) different m/c dealers with the Rondel on one side and dealer's name on the other..so..what's the problem..?

tinytrains
01-22-2010, 08:25 PM
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but don't HD dealers have to pay a royalty on their shop shirts to HD?

I think HD makes more off of merchandise than bikes.

henzilla
01-22-2010, 09:28 PM
BMW AG would not be happy with this as well I imagine...reminded me of a large orange sticker commonly seen in truck windows...I pulled in behind him one day

As far as trademark usage...I cannot understand the freak out of a likeness as long as you were not trying to market anything different than the original...and were not selling hot dogs or deodorant called BMW with the logo in the name.
And Houston...they do have a huge manual given out at the MOA rally to clubs...400 pages and still muddy:banghead

anyways..the funny pic... good thing he is not BMW Carpentry...I blocked his plate # so he doesn't get sued due to me!

Na Cl K9
01-22-2010, 10:25 PM
Do you suppose this is why no one gets a BMW tattoo...

alanrd
01-23-2010, 12:13 AM
I created my own policy. I don't advertise anybody's stuff unless they are willing to pay me. Life is less complicated now.

tinytrains
01-23-2010, 04:03 AM
BMW AG would not be happy with this as well I imagine

The truck owner has no problem. Trademark protection normally does not apply to personal use. That is covered by the first amendment. You can make logos for yourself all day long. The minute you sell them, give them away, or use them in your business, the laws apply. Artists are usually exempt as long as the logo is incidental to the work, not the reason for the work. A calendar with BMWs is not a violation, selling a "BMW Calendar" requires permission.

We just went though all this recently in the model railroad industry.

The person who made and sold the decal is the one whom BMW would be interested talking too.

womanridge
01-23-2010, 05:09 AM
Karen,

Was that a BMW motorcycle dealer or an automobile dealer?

Both. Cars in one building, bikes in another, side by side. (hmmm, sounds like a song there somewhere).
I think the salesman got extra interrested when I talked to him about the 1,500 EU carbon fiber helmet in their BMW catalog.

ALIENHITCHHIKER
01-23-2010, 02:51 PM
Do you suppose this is why no one gets a BMW tattoo...

.

kbasa
01-23-2010, 03:41 PM
One of the problems with patches is that you can't easily make the current logo.

You'll note that the current roundel is curved and in images it always appears curved. The old style logo was flat, like the roundels on the tank of my R100, which was easy to render to stitching. The new one, with its shading (see Darryl's avatar for an example) is not easily rendered to stitching.

I think that's why we don't see patches.

I'll say this: when I was a kid, I backpacked a lot and had a ton of patches I'd earned for various treks. However, these days, I can't think of the last time I sewed a patch on anything. I've got an old Eclipse tank bag with an MOA patch I sewed on it. The patch is in tough shape from having me crouched over it all those miles, so I might be sewing a new patch on for the first time in about 15 years. :ha

darrylri
01-23-2010, 03:58 PM
I guess I should add that I couldn't really care less about patches, myself. I've got a drawer in my desk and all the pins, stickers and patches I get, I just toss them in there and forget about them.

But I know that a lot of people like them and want them, and I long ago learned that it seems very few people have their head screwed on the same way I do.

Dave, the roundel in the new logos is so small that the shading is irrelevant (it's just 18% of the height). A patch of any realistic size is just going to have a blob of black, white and blue.

r11rs94
01-24-2010, 07:37 PM
There was a guy in Sturgis that will make any patch you want. He is skirting copyright laws by making them to order and not having them pre-made. (also no two the same) This way they are not considered a product as such but are called "art" (Has Harley's lawyers going crazy, someone should do this with BMW patches too)

I'll purchase one..

72598
01-24-2010, 07:38 PM
There was a guy in Sturgis that will make any patch you want. He is skirting copyright laws by making them to order and not having them pre-made. (also no two the same) This way they are not considered a product as such but are called "art" (Has Harley's lawyers going crazy, someone should do this with BMW patches too)

You can also order patches from the oriental countries that do not recognize international copyright laws. (you can posses these but will get into trouble selling them, same copyright infringement as bootleg Cds or DVRs)

JM1200GT
01-24-2010, 10:24 PM
Interesting. I've gotten patches, T-shirts and hats at my local dealer. They're always in stock. :scratch

xp8103
02-03-2010, 09:11 PM
There was a guy in Sturgis that will make any patch you want. He is skirting copyright laws by making them to order and not having them pre-made. (also no two the same) This way they are not considered a product as such but are called "art" (Has Harley's lawyers going crazy, someone should do this with BMW patches too)

You can also order patches from the oriental countries that do not recognize international copyright laws. (you can posses these but will get into trouble selling them, same copyright infringement as bootleg Cds or DVRs)

This is true. A couple years ago I bought two watches off eBay from HK with the roundel in the face. they were $2.99 for both +$5.00 shipping (FROM HK!!) Still have one of them in the package. the other I wore, got it wet and thru it away...

JAMESDUNN
02-03-2010, 11:59 PM
I like the BMW roundel, but for the most part prefer it on my motorcycle. I have a couple of tee shirts with the roundel, but no caps. I don't like to walk around wearing a lot of company logo clothing. Regardless of brand. I like my motorcycling clothing to be logo free. Just not my thing.
JD

ALIENHITCHHIKER
02-07-2010, 04:01 AM
For the record:
The roundel tattoo is not me - I happened to run across it on the web.

I'm just thumbing my nose at Herr BMW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InsspuvAmBs

:german

criminaldesign
02-07-2010, 03:41 PM
I like the BMW roundel, but for the most part prefer it on my motorcycle. I have a couple of tee shirts with the roundel, but no caps. I don't like to walk around wearing a lot of company logo clothing. Regardless of brand. I like my motorcycling clothing to be logo free. Just not my thing.
JD

All my gear is 'blank' too. I've taken the seam ripper to alot of labels on clothing.

jforgo
02-07-2010, 07:51 PM
All my gear is 'blank' too. I've taken the seam ripper to alot of labels on clothing.

What, you don't like being a walking and riding billboard for some corporation?? How is anyone to know you wear the right stuff???

Trickster
02-07-2010, 07:56 PM
Suppose this is a copyright infringement?

http://mo-parts.de:nyah

"Only" 89 Euros for one....:sick

Rudyjo
02-07-2010, 07:59 PM
I created my own policy. I don't advertise anybody's stuff unless they are willing to pay me. Life is less complicated now.

I am the same way regarding the licence plate holders that come with a car
from a dealership. As long as the holder is on the car, I am giving them free
advertising. First thing I do when I get a car home from the dealer is take off
the holder.

Trickster
02-07-2010, 10:39 PM
I am the same way regarding the licence plate holders that come with a car
from a dealership. As long as the holder is on the car, I am giving them free
advertising. First thing I do when I get a car home from the dealer is take off
the holder.

I don't advertise for free either, think it spoils the look.
Learned the hard way about 30 years ago, bought a new car from a Ford
dealer, came time to pick it up...they riveted a metal dealer nameplate to the trunklid.:banghead
I came unglued, :fight said the deal was off, they apologized and replaced it
with another comparable car.

So now before pick up I ensure to tell salesman, no chit on my car/truck/bike period.:nono

Random
02-08-2010, 05:56 PM
I like patches. I have a BMW, VW and Triumph patch on a jean jacket along with BMWMOA and Sturgis rallys and patches from places I've been. I have an Art of the Motorcycle patch and a neat Mickey Mouse that looks like it was cut from a USA flag. I've also put a peace sign and a Nikon USA patch on it. If I ever find a Rolling Stones patch of the tongue I'm going to put it on there too. I think it's fun.

I got the BMW patch from Bob's BMW several many years ago.

72598
02-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Watching the History channel this weekend and saw a roundel, just the same as a BMW roundel. It was a Knights Templar symbol at Roslyn in Scotland dating from the 12th century. It was also used by Indians in NS as early as the 13th century. (Program was about Templars being in North America over a century before Columbus, Does this mean that the Templars rode BMWs??)

PowderkegPete
02-08-2010, 07:14 PM
A friend of mine just received a couple of BMW roundel patches he ordered off of eBay for $5.00 including postage. They are out there if you want them.

PowderkegPete

Bud
02-08-2010, 08:55 PM
I don't advertise for free either, think it spoils the look.
Learned the hard way about 30 years ago, bought a new car from a Ford
dealer, came time to pick it up...they riveted a metal dealer nameplate to the trunklid.:banghead
I came unglued, :fight said the deal was off, they apologized and replaced it
with another comparable car.

So now before pick up I ensure to tell salesman, no chit on my car/truck/bike period.:nono

So you take the Roundel off of your motorcycles?:D

After, they advertise for BMW.

MAYLETT
02-08-2010, 10:21 PM
Like criminaldesign, above, I make my a good part of my living from developing corporate branding campaigns. Branding is a huge issue for corporations — especially for companies like BMW, where brand personality is one of their most important assets. Losing control of their logo would amount to losing control over a tightly refined image that's easily worth tens of millions of dollars to them.

BMW's image is (accurately or not) one of exclusivity, quality and class, and BMW want to keep it that way while retaining the ability to fine tune and make strategic shifts to that image. Harley Davidson's brand, in contrast, is just as tightly targeted, but is aimed at fostering and maintaining their bad-boy credentials to a group of potential buyers who are attracted to a grittier, outlaw image — even though it's all affectation and complemented with manipulative, but highly lucrative, brand licensing agreements that BMW generally stays clear of.

BMW Motorrad might be a bit hypervigilant about the use of their logo and branding, but I see them erring on the side of caution. This is a bit ironic since I see so many deficiencies in other areas of BMW Motorrad marketing, like customer appreciation and loyalty, for example, but I digress.

When it comes right down to it, BMW has a very important stake in not seeing their brand diluted by having their trademark used in ways that run contrary to the brand image and personality that they've spent the better part of a century building and protecting.

Using the example in one of the posts above, letting dealers or licensees create bomber jackets with giant BMW logos on the back would most definitely run 180-degrees contrary to what maintaining their brand personality would dictate. For HD, these jackets would likely enhance their desirable bad-boy, biker gang overtones, but for BMW, it would be like dragging their exclusive brand through the muck of a dirty back alley.

Trickster
02-09-2010, 12:42 AM
So you take the Roundel off of your motorcycles?:D

After, they advertise for BMW.

Not the make I take off, just the dealers names, proud to display
the BMW roundel:thumb

Bud
02-09-2010, 05:03 AM
Not the make I take off, just the dealers names, proud to display
the BMW roundel:thumb

I know, just razzing ya! :wave

darrylri
02-09-2010, 02:32 PM
Using the example in one of the posts above, letting dealers or licensees create bomber jackets with giant BMW logos on the back would most definitely run 180-degrees contrary to what maintaining their brand personality would dictate. For HD, these jackets would likely enhance their desirable bad-boy, biker gang overtones, but for BMW, it would be like dragging their exclusive brand through the muck of a dirty back alley.

That was the point of my story, and I think, the point BMW NA was trying to get across to the dealers. However, I don't think it worked, because Paul, the dealer I was hearing this from, was as disappointed as it seemed that a lot of the other dealers were.

criminaldesign
02-09-2010, 05:40 PM
Now here's a patch I will put on my bibs. No craporation logo or mark.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qx73f8097FAZDcpePQvWoQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_QUlLxCsQNp0/S3Gdo8ICxVI/AAAAAAAABn0/cy2BvN7PX40/s800/patch.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/houstonmcintyre/BikeStuff?feat=embedwebsite">Bike Stuff</a></td></tr></table>

mistercindy
02-09-2010, 05:45 PM
I created my own policy. I don't advertise anybody's stuff unless they are willing to pay me. Life is less complicated now.
+1 :nod

I'm not much into the patch & pin scene. Every one that I own I've received because I paid to be in a club or enter a rally, etc... They're all in a shoebox in my closet. I never saw the sense in sticking needles in a jacket that you'd like to be as water resistant as possible.:dunno

Just my $0.02...

Trickster
02-10-2010, 01:38 AM
Using the example in one of the posts above, letting dealers or licensees create bomber jackets with giant BMW logos on the back would most definitely run 180-degrees contrary to what maintaining their brand personality would dictate. For HD, these jackets would likely enhance their desirable bad-boy, biker gang overtones, but for BMW, it would be like dragging their exclusive brand through the muck of a dirty back alley.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, BMW itself is altering its "brand personality", what with a variety of
bikes that range now from roadster to crotch rocket. The way I see it is, they
just want all the cake not a piece of it.:bow

What now appears to be happening, is a push for more mainstream products,
that I feel are "not" exclusive anymore, with faltering build quality and reliability.:cry

As far as HD enhancing their so called "desirable bad boy, biker gang overtones"
you need to look at their current demographics, which are far more likely to reveal
business men over 45 and women who like the "look".:brow

As a loyal BMW owner I don't appreciate slamming other manufactuers, to make
me feel better about my choice of ride, because I too have owned HD,Yamaha,
Suzuki, all very good rides in "their " own way.:nono

MAYLETT
02-10-2010, 02:00 AM
I disagree, BMW itself is altering its "brand personality", what with a variety of bikes that range now from roadster to crotch rocket.
Yes, they are strategically altering their brand's personality by addressing the changing demographic make-up of potential customers, but that's the point I was making. To do so effectively and make the shift in the direction they want it to head, they have to keep control of their brand.


As a loyal BMW owner I don't appreciate slamming other manufactuers, to make me feel better about my choice of ride, because I too have owned HD,Yamaha, Suzuki, all very good rides in "their " own way.:nono
I didn't notice anyone slamming brands in this thread; I know that I certainly didn't. I was simply talking about marketing strategies and how brand identity and personality are important factors in those strategies. Harley Davidson and BMW have nearly polar opposite brand images, and each occupies a lucrative and successful niche in the overall market. When it comes right down to it, HD has run one of the most brilliant marketing campaigns of the past 50 years by creating a brand personality that taps directly into the emotions and fantasies of a huge customer base.

r11rs94
02-10-2010, 02:49 AM
I took this picture at the RA rally in the UP. Now them are some patches...

greenwald
02-10-2010, 03:54 PM
Headed for the International Motorcycle Show next weekend in Chicago.

They have always had a 'patch & sticker vendor' there with some BMW patches and assorted items bearing the logo.

Perhaps this year, I'll buy out a healthy portion of his stock, so I'm set for years to come!! :whistle

47512
02-10-2010, 04:43 PM
I was a Porsche tech for 30 years before retiring. At one of the independent repair shops I worked at for many years had a sign on the front of the building that had the company name and identified as a service shop and a Porsche crest and had been on the building for at least 10 years, we had a good service business, sold alot of parts and acessories. One day two suits walked in, said they represented Porsche NA. that we had to remove the Porsche crest from our sign and had 30 days to comply or we would be sued. The sign could say we serviced Porsches but could not use the logo. We found out later that it was one of the local dealers complained, one that we bought $50 to $100k in OE parts from every year, needless to say that stoped. I do understand the protected use of their logos, but in this case I think it hurt more than it helped. The dealer that complained is no longer with us, the independant that I worked for is still doing just fine. I once told the GM of the dealership quit bitching about the independants and take care of your customers if you did we could not exsist.

Ken G.

TGHSMITH
02-10-2010, 05:25 PM
rule one in customer service;;; If you don't take care of your customers someone else will.. As for the patches, I've bought some off ebay over the years, foreign made, the store changes names everyother week or so, very good quality, fast service, no problems...

haughty
02-10-2010, 11:46 PM
hmm about the HD riders and the bad boy image because they wear the *colors* of HD branding..
If we cant get the BMW logos to do it, maybe we can fester the Vespa groups out there to wear their logos and watch the fights with the HD guys..

SOrta like watching Blazing saddles when they break through the studios near the end.....

and we would be... SIpping on coffee of course watching.......:bottle