PDA

View Full Version : Roundel NOT a Propeller



lkchris
01-07-2010, 10:24 PM
Says so here:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/bmw-roundel-not-born-from-planes/

ALIENHITCHHIKER
01-07-2010, 11:38 PM
It's been well known for a number of years now that the roundel represents an oilhead transmission shaft as viewed from the end after it has been stripped of its splines.

I've heard some suggest that the blau und weiss color scheme were taken from the Bavarian flag, but as it turns out, the same colors appear on a high denomination deutchmark.

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

2bikemike
01-08-2010, 12:15 AM
And the debate rages on.:dunno

jeff488
01-08-2010, 12:40 AM
I was told the blue juxtaposed with the white represents the Yin and Yang of BMW ownership, in so far as it costs out the yinyang to own one.

Not my opinion, just adding to the sum of knowledge on the planet.
:hide

r11rs94
01-08-2010, 01:04 AM
Hopefully this explains it.. http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/roundel.htm

motorradmike
01-08-2010, 12:29 PM
The history of the roundel is clouded enough that one can choose an origin.

My favourite is this:
A BMW aircraft Engineer, disgruntled because he was tasked with the design of a motorcycle engine, marked it with a spinning propeller.
The roundel became too well known for upper management to change when they discovered the truth.

Great story. That's what I tell everybody!

Where did the "screamin' eagle" come from?

tommcgee
01-08-2010, 01:42 PM
Once you've seen that spinning propeller ad, it'll always be a spinning propeller, no matter what anybody sez. :D

BUBBAZANETTI
01-08-2010, 01:49 PM
oh, thanks heavens this has been sorted out.

darrylri
01-08-2010, 01:50 PM
BMW themselves have debunked the propeller theory. The first mention of the propeller is from a sales brochure in 1929. Just follow this link

http://www.bmw.com/generic/com_04/en/fascination/discover/history/mobiletradition/today/news/volume03/01/download/pdf/BMW_Mobile_Tradition_2005_01_E.pdf

to an article in the BMW Mobile Tradition magazine (Fact and Fiction, pages 38-41) that researches the history of the roundel. Basically, the roundel mimics the white/blue lozenge shapes of the Bavarian coat of arms.

roy
01-08-2010, 02:26 PM
Where did the "screamin' eagle" come from?

Probably "screaming" over the annoying noise.... Shut that Da***n thing off

xp8103
01-08-2010, 02:48 PM
BMW can "say" what it wants...... There's enough story on both sides of the argument. I'm with Tom, it's a propeller....:nyah

108625
01-08-2010, 03:29 PM
I was told the blue juxtaposed with the white represents the Yin and Yang of BMW ownership, in so far as it costs out the yinyang to own one.

Not my opinion, just adding to the sum of knowledge on the planet.
:hide

Best d@mn explanation I've heard yet:thumb

tommcgee
01-08-2010, 05:52 PM
There is an animated version of this that I saw about 20 years ago. Haven't been able to find it on the net though.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/4256554077_2464c904cc_o.jpg

OHScot
01-08-2010, 05:58 PM
I'm with Tom. Maybe not on the cars ( they would never fly) but on the bikes it is a propeller representation. Just like religon you have to believe what you want it to be. Oops try not to doghouse....

ALIENHITCHHIKER
01-08-2010, 10:41 PM
Where did the "screamin' eagle" come from?


I can't vouch 100% for the truth of this story, but I have it on good authority from a friend in the Milwaukee area that the origin of the mighty Screaming Eagle goes back to what occurred just seconds before this picture was shot.

barryg
01-09-2010, 12:12 AM
I allways thought it was an impeller. :brow

36654
01-09-2010, 12:35 AM
I allways thought it was an impeller. :brow

The pressure rise is too low..

36654
01-09-2010, 12:45 AM
Says so here:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/bmw-roundel-not-born-from-planes/


I wish someone would tell the poor ignorant sots at BMW Group;

http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_pro...home/home.html

darrylri
01-09-2010, 12:59 AM
I wish someone would tell the poor ignorant sots at BMW Group;

http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_pro...home/home.html

Your link doesn't work.

But probably you've found some place where the left hand hasn't yet heard from the right hand about how the logo was developed.

Instead, read the story at the link I gave above, which is an article that was published 5 years ago from the group archives. They really did look into the issue carefully.

36654
01-09-2010, 02:16 AM
Your link doesn't work.

But probably you've found some place where the left hand hasn't yet heard from the right hand about how the logo was developed.

Instead, read the story at the link I gave above, which is an article that was published 5 years ago from the group archives. They really did look into the issue carefully.

Darryl,

I will tell you that on 3 January 2010 there was a description in the history section of that website that credited the roundel design to the sun's reflection off of a propeller. I fear your analysis is correct, left vs right-hand. In any event, I have to wonder why the revision is so important at this time?

Jon

35634
01-09-2010, 04:42 AM
Back in the 20s BMW engineers couldn't afford crash test dummies so they pasted roundels to their heads and crashed their machines into walls. Wearing a roundel soon became a symbol of dominance, so revered that the designers started sticking the roundels willy-nilly all over the production models. And a tradition was born......:D

36654
01-09-2010, 01:10 PM
Back in the 20s BMW engineers couldn't afford crash test dummies so they pasted roundels to their heads and crashed their machines into walls. Wearing a roundel soon became a symbol of dominance, so revered that the designers started sticking the roundels willy-nilly all over the production models. And a tradition was born......:D

Do you have any pre-impact pics of this test? We could be wickedly creative with that.

Polarbear
01-09-2010, 02:17 PM
He flew with pre BMW Tech and wore the Roundell on his lapel! The 3 Winged wonder and its engine were our Genesis:). Poor Snoopy had to play fetch with this guy:). Randy

mXarad
01-09-2010, 11:54 PM
And what was the origin of the squaredel?

barryg
01-10-2010, 01:22 AM
Kinda reminds me of the Naturally Beemers of Ar. Logo.

35634
01-10-2010, 01:53 AM
And what was the origin of the squaredel?

It could be used to foil the copyright police :D

althotos
03-10-2010, 06:56 PM
Yes, the BMW roundel represents the colors of Bavaria, where the car is made, in Munich. However, BMW Motorrad, the bike division is in Berlin, far from Bavaria. How interesting is that?:confused::confused:

darrylri
03-10-2010, 09:42 PM
Yes, the BMW roundel represents the colors of Bavaria, where the car is made, in Munich. However, BMW Motorrad, the bike division is in Berlin, far from Bavaria. How interesting is that?:confused::confused:

Not so. Bavaria is not just where the cars are made, but where the company was founded, and where it has always been run. The cars were originally produced in Eisenach, a city in the state of Thuringia. Some motorcycles were produced there during WWII. So there's nothing particularly novel about them building products outside of Munich.

BMW moved motorcycle production to Spandau (suburb of Berlin on the NW side) in 1969, for two main reasons: they needed more room for car production in Munich, and the German government gave them big tax breaks to build products and employ people in West Berlin. Everything made there had to be transported out of East Germany, and everything that went into making things there had to be brought in. So it wasn't a cheap endeavor, but apparently the need to have real work in cut-off West Berlin caused the German government to make it worthwhile to BMW to do it.

robsryder
03-10-2010, 09:47 PM
So, the BMW roundel is representative of a spinning propeller in the colors of the Bavarian flag?

darrylri
03-10-2010, 09:48 PM
So, the BMW roundel is representative of a spinning propeller in the colors of the Bavarian flag?

Prefect. :thumb

greenwald
03-10-2010, 10:53 PM
Prefect. :thumb

+1 :thumb

althotos
03-11-2010, 08:57 PM
So, the BMW roundel is representative of a spinning propeller in the colors of the Bavarian flag?

And, because BMW was an airplane engine manufacturer before and during WWI it was how the "propeller" story was born. As a condition of the Treaty of Versailles they were banned from making aircraft engines. It wasn't until the mid-20s that they turned to motorcycle and auto manufacturing.

ojhengen
03-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Says so here:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/bmw-roundel-not-born-from-planes/

The official BMW booklet I received by mail after buying a new BMW 328 clearly states that the Roundel is a propeller against the blue Bavarian sky; dating from the days BMW built aircraft engines. Ergo, this question should be put to rest, once and for all.

Orv Hengen
2007 R1200RT - 41K and rising
2010 328 Coupe

20774
03-16-2010, 01:22 PM
The official BMW booklet I received by mail after buying a new BMW 328 clearly states that the Roundel is a propeller against the blue Bavarian sky

What do Bimmer makers know!! :stick

darrylri
03-16-2010, 01:54 PM
The official BMW booklet I received by mail after buying a new BMW 328 clearly states that the Roundel is a propeller against the blue Bavarian sky; dating from the days BMW built aircraft engines. Ergo, this question should be put to rest, once and for all.

Orv Hengen
2007 R1200RT - 41K and rising
2010 328 Coupe

Marketing claptrap, just as the origination of the propeller idea was. The BMW Group Archives says differently. Read the whole thread above, and then read this article from the Group Archives:

http://www.bmw.com/generic/com_04/en/fascination/discover/history/mobiletradition/today/news/volume03/01/download/pdf/BMW_Mobile_Tradition_2005_01_E.pdf

The first mention of the propeller is from a 1929 marketing brochure; the company, and the logo, were founded in 1918.

f14rio
03-16-2010, 05:51 PM
From BMW:
The BMW roundel, one of the worldÔÇÖs most recognized and revered commercial symbols, celebrates its 90th anniversary this month.
In July 1917 Franz Josef Popp registered the name Bayerische Motoren Werke, thus distancing the new company from the Rapp Motorenwerke. This was a necessary move if the new company was to find new clients and prosper. The name was registered but as yet there was no new logo...
It was on 5 October 1917 that the BMW trademark was registered with the Imperial Trade Mark Roll under No. 221388. It featured the circular design of the Rapp logo but with the letters BMW at the top of the outer ring. The inner featured quadrants in the Bavarian Free State colors of blue and white ÔÇô but in the opposed order ÔÇô as it was illegal to use national symbols in a commercial trademark.
The design was not in any way connected with aircraft engines or propellers. The idea that the blue and white had anything to do with spinning propellers comes from a 1929 advertisement, which featured aircraft with the image of the Roundel in the rotating propellers. This advertisement came at the beginning of the Great Depression, which coincided with BMW acquiring the license to build Pratt & Whitney radial aircraft engines. The advertising department used the roundel and BMW heritage in an attempt to increase sales of the new radial motors.
The idea of the spinning propellers was given greater credence in an article by Wilhelm Farrenkopf in a BMW journal of 1942. This also featured an image of an aircraft with a spinning roundel. These were powerful images and the legend of the spinning propeller was born.




The logo was registered on 5 October but it was in limited use prior to this date. On 1 October 1917 Franz Josef Popp was given a certificate confirming his appointment as General Manager and it was adorned with the now familiar BMW roundel.
The basic structure of the roundel has remained the same over 90 years but there have been subtle changes. In the original design the lettering and outline was in gold, but by the time the first BMW motorcycle ÔÇô the R 32 ÔÇô was released in 1923 it had changed slightly. The letters were still in gold but the font was bolder and letters closer together. This was the style that was submitted to the German Register of Trade Marks in 1933, and the international register of trademarks in 1934. This did not however stop various versions being used.
One of the early BMW advertisements using the logo was in 1918 with the ÔÇÿFalling RoundelsÔÇÖ, this was a positioning advertisement that was designed to establish the brand and give an indication to its current and future products.
Subsequent advertisements, posters and even cars and motorcycles also featured many styles of roundel. The proportions changed, the shade of blue used, and the lettering could be in gold, white or silver with serif or sans-serif fonts in different sizes. There appears to be no reason for this variance except for product designers and marketing and communication staff using personal choice depending on application.
Through the 1950s there was a more concerted effort to standardize the roundel. The use of white lettering was now standard and when used on cars and motorcycles it was silver. By the 1960s the serif font was replaced by sans-serif, and this was used on all motorcycles by 1966.
There was a subsequent change to a slightly bolder font and this has remained as the standard roundel. There was flirtation with a ÔÇÿMotorsport RoundelÔÇÖ in the early 1970s and ÔÇÿ80s which had the standard logo surrounded by the BMW Motorsport colors. In 1997 BMW moved to having the roundel depicted in 3-D when used in the printed form. This gives the Roundel a new bolder and dynamic look.
The BMW roundel is now ranked in the top ten of the worldÔÇÖs most recognized commercial logos and is an iconic symbol in its own right. The original design, in its simplicity and symbolism has stood the test of time.

greenwald
03-16-2010, 07:38 PM
The official BMW booklet I received by mail after buying a new BMW 328 clearly states that the Roundel is a propeller against the blue Bavarian sky; dating from the days BMW built aircraft engines. Ergo, this question should be put to rest, once and for all.

Orv Hengen
2007 R1200RT - 41K and rising
2010 328 Coupe

You (I, and about 20,000 others) wish.

Much like an oil thread, I'm afraid. And don't get that started now either! :D

widebmw
03-16-2010, 08:08 PM
I understand that is is not a propeller, but it could be a screw.:bolt

lkchris
06-07-2010, 08:22 PM
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znBnNJ1Fv08&feature=player_embedded

535IS
06-07-2010, 09:13 PM
He flew with pre BMW Tech and wore the Roundell on his lapel! The 3 Winged wonder and its engine were our Genesis:). Poor Snoopy had to play fetch with this guy:). Randy

I found the quote from which you came up with this hilarious conclusion:


During World War I, BMW aircraft engines founded a tradition of excellence and reliability. It was Baron von Richthofen, the "Red Baron", who praised the BMW engines that powered the legendary Fokker Triplane of 1917. (http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/vintage.htm)

Anyone who knows anything about "the legendary Fokker Triplane of 1917" knows that it was powered by an air-cooled Oberursel rotary, not a liquid-cooled BMW inline six. :nono

It's unlikely von Richthofen ever flew behind a BMW engine, since he flew various Albatros models and the Fokker DR-I, none of which had BMW engines. The only type he flew that was ever powered by a BMW engine was a Fokker D-VII, but that was a prototype powered by a Mercedes. He was killed before the D-VII with BMW power reached any combat units. Lending the thinnest shred of credibility to the above, ace Ernst Udet, who led Jasta 11 after von Richthofen's death did praise the BMW-powered D-VII ...

jfcaramagno
06-07-2010, 10:12 PM
I've heard some suggest that the blau und weiss color scheme were taken from the Bavarian flag,That's Blau mit Weiss. You're welcome. :p

wezul
06-07-2010, 10:19 PM
I love this club. It's like a BIG dysfunctional family.
We argue about everything! :ha :bolt

indycar
06-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Back in the days of 3.5 inch floppy disks, I had a driver interactive program/game from BMW I got through BMWCCA somehow. At any rate, in the intro, the program featured an airplane propeller spinning, eventually becoming the BMW Roundel on the title page.

Go Figure

35634
06-07-2010, 11:27 PM
Anyone who knows anything about "the legendary Fokker Triplane of 1917" knows that it was powered by [I]an air-cooled Oberursel rotary
I

Interestingly, the Oberusel was a copy of the French Le Rh??ne Rotary Engine, sometimes captured engines were used due to superior materials and the HP ratings of the German Oberusels tended to be somewhat fictional. BMW was later licensed by Pratt & Whitney to produce their radial engine, used in the JU-52 & other WW2 aircraft.

darrylri
06-08-2010, 04:55 AM
That's Blau mit Weiss. You're welcome. :p

Actually, the Bavarians always call it weiss mit blau or just weiss-blau. For whatever reason, the white always comes first. The colors and the lozenge flag are supposed to represent the fluffy white clouds in the blue Bavarian sky...


I love this club. It's like a BIG dysfunctional family.
We argue about everything! :ha :bolt

This is a discussion, not an argument. We got rid of the DGT and the Tavern so we wouldn't argue.

ka5ysy
06-08-2010, 01:03 PM
I love this club. It's like a BIG dysfunctional family.
We argue about everything! :ha :bolt



Speaking of oil.....



:hide

bobs98
06-08-2010, 02:22 PM
:fight
We argue about everything! :ha :bolt

No we don't!

henzilla
06-08-2010, 09:10 PM
A timely article on the subject from today... just got this from another discussionest :laugh watch the video clip

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1045927_video-history-of-the-bmw-logo

Motodan
06-14-2010, 10:33 AM
What it is is a white circle divided into quarters with every other section colored blue. Beyond that, it is whatever one wants it to be.

SteveAikens
06-14-2010, 11:33 AM
I love this club. It's like a BIG dysfunctional family.
We argue about everything! :ha :boltThis is not a club. It's an association.

RIDERR1150GSADV
06-15-2010, 11:17 PM
:fight

No we don't!

Yes we do...:fight :stick :whistle

The_Veg
06-15-2010, 11:34 PM
This is not a club. It's an association.

Explain please?

SteveAikens
06-15-2010, 11:40 PM
Explain please?You starting an arguement?

The_Veg
06-15-2010, 11:42 PM
You starting an arguement?

Not yet. :laugh

SteveAikens
06-16-2010, 01:21 AM
Ok. Let me know when you're ready.

ka5ysy
06-16-2010, 02:15 AM
Explain please?


Actually this is a support group for all us dysfunctional people with motorcycle addition. :thumb

SteveAikens
06-16-2010, 03:05 AM
That's REAL close. But let me make a minor correction.

Actually this is a support group for all us dysfunctional people with a motorcycle addition addiction.

:bikes

texanrt
06-16-2010, 12:06 PM
What were we talking about? :)


Oh, yeah. The roundel. I think people prefer the propeller legend so I don't think that story line is going anywhere. But it's great to know the history, nonetheless.

Bud
06-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Having read all of the posts in this thread, I still have a lingering question that seems unanswered.

Which oil should I use to lubricate the spinning propeller inside of the Roundel?

:dunno

SteveAikens
06-27-2010, 03:42 PM
Just swab your finger through some you find under a [name of US M/C manufacturer withheld] and dab it on the prop. Now THAT will add some class to your otherwise boring ride.......:brad

roughwaterjohn
07-14-2010, 12:19 AM
I can't believe how silly you all are.

The BMW logo was designed by Gunnar Beerinloven sometime around the early 1900's. The timeframe is a little fuzzy because so was Gunnar. The Roundel actually depicts the Bavarian Flag spinning around like a propeller. As he tells it, Gunnar was at his favorite Hofbrau for 2 weeks straight. He'd been trying to hit on a voluptuous barmaid for quite some time, (2 weeks in fact) but she failed to fall for his advances. The fact that he never left the floor under the table he had been drinking at may have something to do with it, for the lovely maiden spent very little of her time under it with him.

Gunnar finally staggered out of the Hofbrau after his unsuccessful two week love quest. As he stumbled out into the central Bavarian plaza on the way to his job as an advertising executive at the BMW plant, he fell against the towns one and only flag pole, falling to the ground at it's base. Waking up the next morning, he looked up to see the beautiful colors of the Bavarian flag spinning against the background of clouds like a propeller. Of course after two weeks of drinking it wasn't the only thing spinning, it was the only thing he fixated on though. He saw this for several hours in fact, every time he opened his eyes, which was infrequent due to the headaches light was giving his alcohol soaked brain.

When he got to work, his boss, who was quite angry with him for his two week absence, asked him what he had been doing for the last two weeks. Holding onto his desk with one hand to steady himself and covering his bloodshot eyes with his other, he said, with much pride I might add, "I've spent that time creating a logo that will last our company for years to come". He proceeded to draw quickly on a cocktail napkin, that for some obscure reason was tucked into the strap of his lederhosen, the image of the Bavarian flag spinning like a propeller. His boss, obviously overjoyed with his dedicated employee failed to wait for the explanation and sent it off post haste to the advertising department.

The rest, as they say..... is history.

35634
07-14-2010, 12:32 AM
Old BMW ad...I doubt BMW even know what the thing symbolizes.:heh

hlothery
07-14-2010, 02:33 PM
I can honestly say that I have never even contemplated the origins of the Roundel. :brow

scqtt
07-14-2010, 02:51 PM
Spend some time in Bravaria. The white and blue is everywhere.

The Weise & blau of Bavaria dates back to before 1250. Pretty sure that predates BMW.

I think the White is for Snow & Blue for Sky.

I could be wrong, the white might be for clouds, but I think it is for snow.