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Osm3um
10-08-2009, 04:36 PM
I have ridden a number of bikes over the years and always had troubles remembering to cancel my turn signals.

I recently picked up an 1150rt and have found that the three button BMW signal systems is FABULOUS. I rarely forget to cancel my signals. Not sure why but I love it.

I find it interesting that I have read that a lot of people don't like it. Anyone else like the system better than the single button?

Bob

MAYLETT
10-08-2009, 04:55 PM
I wish that I felt the same way. I've been riding a BMW since last January, and I still fumble around with the turn signal buttons and the way they're designed and positioned. I'm not sure if it's just my brain refusing to break a 30-year-old habit or less-than-good ergonomics, but I'd prefer a single button. All things considered though, it's a minor issue.

darrylri
10-08-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm disappointed that BMW has given in to the press on this issue. People who own a bike get used to its quirks and "character", whereas the press guys get on a bike for 2 or 3 days and then move on.

The three button system has a huge advantage over the left/cancel/right switch on the Japanese bikes, and it's one I don't often see mentioned:

If the traffic in front of you suddenly stops, you can IMMEDIATELY get your flashers running by punching both buttons with your thumbs and holding them. You can do this without moving your hands or being unable to use the brake and clutch levers.

On the R1200s, BMW made this official, but it works on the 1100s and 1150s. If you have trouble finding the horn vs. the cancel button, how long does it take you to hit the 4-ways, if your bike even has them?

For riding in urban traffic and on the freeways, this is a wonderful, fraction of a second, life saving feature.

PGlaves
10-08-2009, 05:26 PM
I have had the BMW 3 button signals on most of my bikes since 1986 - yes - 23 years - starting with my first K75. It took a ride around the block to figure it out and I much prefer it over the Japanese style signals that appeared on my F650.

I do like the shape and placement of the 3 buttons on my R1150 better than the buttons on the earlier 3 button controls.

I suspect that BMW had other reasons than just the press idiots to change controls - maybe some new European Union standard, or something to do with Canbus, or maybe a new supplier emerged. In any case - in my book it is a step backwards.

BUBBAZANETTI
10-08-2009, 05:34 PM
miss them in the oilhead to airhead switch.

108625
10-08-2009, 06:02 PM
I'm disappointed that BMW has given in to the press on this issue. People who own a bike get used to its quirks and "character", whereas the press guys get on a bike for 2 or 3 days and then move on.

The three button system has a huge advantage over the left/cancel/right switch on the Japanese bikes, and it's one I don't often see mentioned:

If the traffic in front of you suddenly stops, you can IMMEDIATELY get your flashers running by punching both buttons with your thumbs and holding them. You can do this without moving your hands or being unable to use the brake and clutch levers.

On the R1200s, BMW made this official, but it works on the 1100s and 1150s. If you have trouble finding the horn vs. the cancel button, how long does it take you to hit the 4-ways, if your bike even has them?

For riding in urban traffic and on the freeways, this is a wonderful, fraction of a second, life saving feature.

Never liked them, and I owned the bike for a couple years.
The good old fashioned left thumb switch for turnsignals works great; and on my Honda, I have instant simultaneous access to both my horn (left thumb) and hazards (right thumb) when I need them.

cheesewhiz
10-08-2009, 06:11 PM
I love the three button set up on my RT.
I love the single button set up on my KLR.

The trick is being AWARE of ones controls :stick

:D

sugarhillctd
10-08-2009, 07:45 PM
Took me a few days to get used to my K1100RS turn signal switches. Now I would really miss it.

I'm with Paul- the new switchgear is a step backwards.

GSFORNOW
10-08-2009, 09:42 PM
I like HD turn signals the best of any I have tried. My '99 GS does not have self cancelling turn signals which I prefer. I have tried the newer BMWs with self cancelling signals and find the HD version to be more real world friendly. That said I installed the Kissan Signal Minder on my GS and that brings it closer in function to the HD. Close but not quite but OK all in all. I prefer the HD or modified BMW to the UJM signals by far. Don't like the horn button positioning on the BMW particularly.

Kirbster919
10-08-2009, 11:40 PM
I love the 3 button setup.

Regardless of type of switch, I think placement is equally important. I recently test road a Buell (1125?) and while I was surprised with how it performed, I would NEVER buy it because of the turn signal placement. Extremely awkward, making it nearly impossible to use quickly.

PAULBACH
10-09-2009, 12:10 AM
I suspect that BMW had other reasons than just the press idiots to change controls - maybe some new European Union standard, or something to do with Canbus, or maybe a new supplier emerged. In any case - in my book it is a step backwards.

:nod

R80RTJohnny
10-09-2009, 12:20 AM
The 3 button set up is great. I should remember not to listen to moto-journalists all that much. Well only when BMW's win their yearly awards for best in class awards.

I've found the use quite intuitive when needing to change lanes.

JAMESDUNN
10-09-2009, 12:32 AM
The three button setup is okay, and I am used to it, but I prefer the up/down signal switch on my '78.

Semper_Fi
10-09-2009, 12:35 AM
I had the three button system on my RT and it was great

I have the single button system on my GT and it is fine - quickly adapted.

The only thing I can say is better - and this pertains to me only - is that with the single button system I now longer give an angry left turn signal when I go for the horn.

:lurk

BUDDINGGEEZER
10-09-2009, 02:08 AM
I don't know what the big deal is about turn signals. I had a K100LT and it took me a day to get use to the turn signals. I did not even mind the horn button, but I did think it strange to raise my left thumb to honk it.

I now ride a Honda ST1100 and it took about a day to get used to the Honda turn signal.

Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It's not rocket science.

Ralph sims

CoffeeGuy
10-09-2009, 02:19 AM
Three Button- Thumbs up

One Button- Thumbs Down

I own a 99 R1100S with the proper three button arrangement, it's not my first bike (93 yamaha Seca II) but like Paul said, it took less than five minutes for me to get used to the BMW system.

Recently, I had the opportunity to test ride a 08' (or 09'?) K1300GT for seven days with the newer one button signal arrangement. Although I don't really see it as a deal breaker, the one button arrangement really just seems cheap feeling. I can't help but think that the change is cost related for BMW, meaning they're saving money by adopting the conventional arrangement. Less plastic, fewer parts. It's my opinion, of course.

The three button arrangement just seems more substantial to me. And I'd be more interested in looking for a 1200GT partly because of the signal switches and urine cup looking fluid reservoir.

...so I suppose the switches are a dealbreaker?

Maybe I've finally lost my mind?

mcmxcivrs
10-09-2009, 03:12 AM
Having had my R1100RS for many years. I've become very comfortable with the three button system. Its almost intuitive to use once you get accustomed to it; almost like the infamous "countersteering" - to turn right, you push right, to turn left, you push left.

I had my 03 F650GS for not quite two years, and just never got used to the single button. Switching from the RS to the GS was a guaranteed mess for the first several turns until I got my head straight on which switch gear I had at hand. Thus I can understand the confusion the media finds with the three button system given the common use of the single switch by so many brands and models. Though it was never something that was a deal breaker on a bike for me, having to replace the thumper with my new F800GS made me a bit more happy knowing it would have the more familiar (to me) three button system.

ragtoplvr
10-09-2009, 04:01 AM
I love the 3 button setup. Seems intuitive to me.

Now the horn button, for some reason, I just do not get.

There have been several occasions when I "left blinkered" someone in anger.

I try to practice when I can, I just do not think it is going to happen

Rod

dadayama
10-09-2009, 04:21 AM
This is my third bike... first BMW... I like the 3 button set up...
It is completely an extension of my body, don't even think about it... on...off...left..right...
Some one else posted about how easy it is to turn on the hazard flashers...
I agree 100%... the first time i did, on a rainy day coming upon a wreck in the road... it was natural and intuitive even though i had never done it... have use the feature several times...

Peter OKC,OK

rbertalotto
10-09-2009, 10:53 AM
If you add a KISAN Signal Minder to your BMW you will end up with a "Two Button" system. Push left button to start flash, push it again to cancel, same for the right.

Push and hold the button a 1/2 second longer and the left or right signal will flash very rapidly for lane change.

The Signal Minder has three quantity of "flash" before it cancels. I believe it is 8, 30 and 45 seconds.........but if you hook up an aux wire that comes with the kit to your brake light, the signal will flash continuously until the brake is released and then start its predetermined flash count.

You also get the advantage of "running lights" where the turn signals are always on at a settable dim mode. Makes you more conspicuous.


Retail Price: $109.95

SM-5 unit is designed as a plug-in replacement for most BMW "R" Bikes and some "K" series bikes with dual handlebar mounted turn signal switches. This unit has a matching 12-pin connector and replaces the original Delphi turn signal relay.

SM-5 operates all four turn signal lamps at reduced intensity to enhance your visibility in the traffic. This conversion is all done internally without any modifications to the wiring. This optional feature can be enabled or disabled on the fly.

SM-5 has soft touch configuration. Soft touch configuration allows the timeouts and running light options to be changed on the fly.

SM-5 has (3) selectable timouts: 8 seconds, 30 seconds, and 45 seconds.

NEW FEATURE (xx930BF2 code)

Built-in RUN-TURN-BRAKE functions
No need to buy other turn signal conversion product. You get all the features of RUN-TURN-BRAKE and automatic signal canelling!

If you hook-up the 12 volt supply from the brakes, to the signalMinder brake input:

BRAKE FLASH OPTION will flash the turn signal lamps every time you apply brakes. A short 2 second flash pattern begins with quick flashes then slows down to stay on solid.

BRAKE OVERRIDE OPTION suspends the time-out feature until the brakes are released. This allows continued flashing for those times when you are waiting at the signals to make a turn and do not want the time-out to cancel the flashing.

MORE FEATURES

FAST FLASH Lane Change
If you hold down the turn signal switch, turn signals will flash twice as fast for the first (4) times. This is an excellent feature to get immediate attention while changing lanes.

Same-Side-Cancel
Instead of using your right thumb in that awkward motion to push up the Cancel button, simply push the Same-side button to stop flashing.

4-Way Emergency Flash Push both right and left buttons simultaneously to begin 4-Way flash. To stop, use the right side Cancel button.

The last thing you need is to worry about canceling the turn signals! Use all of the built-in options of the signalMinder and enjoy the ride.

signalMinder has an add-on product known as vectraLIGHT. These LED arrays simply plug into the signalMinder and inherit all of it's features. They are designed to mount under the turn signal mirrors.

motorradmike
10-09-2009, 11:04 AM
I like the BMW 3 button arrangement. I do find the horn a bit difficult though.

You can cancel by pressing both buttons too. I built a fairly complicated cancelling unit that counts wheel revolutions, so it never times out at a light. It runs about 7 flashes on the highway.

wezul
10-09-2009, 11:55 AM
I have not played with the newer two button so I really cannot opine. The three button system took some time (like what, maybe an hour on road?) for me to get accustomed but now it's good. Like any other machine one needs time to get to know layout, functions, etc.
Is one better than other? Does it matter?

stkmkt1
10-09-2009, 12:36 PM
I love the three button setup on my GSA. When I ride my other bikes now, I fumble with the turn signals. The three button just seems natural to me. And I have only been riding the Beemer since May of this year.

12907
10-09-2009, 02:22 PM
I have no experience with the 3 button switch. That being said, I love the single switch on my '83 RS. Never cared for the Japanese style, not very ergonomic IMO. And as far as self canceling, I think it's over rated. Just pay attention and cancel your signals. Yep, I love the old style switches. Riding a BMW is a down right, up lefting experience.

RSPENNACHIO
10-09-2009, 02:35 PM
I like the three button system also. The Kisan product sounds good but I am pretty good at canceling after a turn or lane change.

On the other hand, I have on occasion used the horn when attempting to signal left :blush...

Peter_Krynicki
10-09-2009, 04:17 PM
IMO the three-button arrangement got a lot of bad press because of people who own more than one bike, and more than one brand. No-one else has a three-switch setup and it's not easy to remember which you have when you switch bikes. I still have a '99 R1100S and have to think twice about what I'm doing when riding it vs one of the Ducs.

JR
10-10-2009, 01:00 AM
I like the 3 button system. I have small hands and find that I can actuate them easily with a very small thumb movement compared to the single button type which I found awkward (like the horn button).

GlobalRider
10-10-2009, 12:11 PM
I find it interesting that I have read that a lot of people don't like it.

If it is due to some coordination problem, we can be thankful those people aren't airline pilots; at least we hope they're not.

I have motorcycles with both systems and don't have issues with either; but I prefer BMW's cancel button system.

GILLY
10-10-2009, 02:30 PM
I like HD turn signals the best of any I have tried.


My experience also. I owned an HD for a few months last year, and the signal switches really impressed me, very logical. Left/Right are like BMW, but you can cancel by just pressing the switch a second time, BUT the nice thing is they self-cancel based on a lean angle sensor, works excellent. SOMEtimes does not pick up on a lane change. They will time-out eventually as well if you do not notice they didn't self-cancel. Very well thought out. Hazard flasher, push both like BMW 3-button, then press either left or right to cancel hazard flasher.

Gilly

osbornk
10-10-2009, 02:43 PM
I have one button on my 86 R80RT and three buttons on my 03 R1200CLC. I don't even think of it as I switch from one to the other. I've had about a dozen bikes with one button and three with three buttons and after you've ridden for a while, whatever system you have is automatic. I have more trouble remembering that my car has a floor shift while my SUY and truck have column shifts. My arm grabs at empty air.

Ken

stevenmi
10-10-2009, 03:02 PM
I prefer the BMW 3-button set up. I recently bought an '01F650GS with left-side single-button signals and I do like it as much as my '85K100 or '96R11RS.

One thing I like about the 3-button system, is when distance touring, I can leave my left hand laying in my lap (relaxing) and signal right turns/cancels with my throttle hand, and left turns with a casual left-arm lift.

Ride fast, ride safe.

58058D
10-10-2009, 07:36 PM
I have to agree, had single before, got used to the three button in a day or so, now have the new K with the single and go back and forth to the KRS, no problem most of the time. Sort of like going from a three speed to a 4 or 5 speed. I have to say I really like the new high beam switch. At first I wondered about it, but now, it is so easy to flip to highs with nary a push of the finger and hitting the pass-flash is also really easy. Thumb still learning the exact location of the horn, but don't use it enough to get it ingrained yet....

shire2000
10-11-2009, 06:16 PM
I really prefer a single switch on my left for my turn signals, but have no problems riding a bike with the switch on the right or individual switches on either side, or what ever. No matter what bike I ride, if I have not ridden that bike in a while, I always check out everything before inserting key in the ignition. Once I am familiarized, I will start the bike and check ease of operation of everything, including adjusting mirrors etc.

I don't see the problem that others seem to have with the switch arrangment. I don't think that any of the possible arrangements is wrong. They are just different. As long as the arrangement works, the lights flash appropriately, then get over it and ride.

henzilla
10-11-2009, 07:32 PM
I have more trouble remembering that my car has a floor shift while my SUY and truck have column shifts. My arm grabs at empty air.
Ken


:laugh:laugh:laugh Been there...

dpmonk
10-12-2009, 03:42 AM
Easiest to operate turn signals were on my HD electraglides. Simple big button one on each side. Push to turn on. Push to cancel or wait until it self cancelled.

The next best were the ones on my LT and RT. but didn't care for the right thumb up cancel button.

Next is the switch on my 90/6. Pretty simple, up for right, down for left and middle for cancel.

Least favorite is the one on the honda. One switch on a very cluttered control that is almost impossible to operate without looking. God forbid my life ever was to depend on finding the horn.

rbertalotto
10-12-2009, 11:38 AM
BMW and turn signals........

So on the G650 X Challenge they decided to use a conventional "Honda" type turn signal switch. But they reversed the position with the horn switch. Having a number of other motorcycles with the switches in the conventional position, I always beep the horn on the "X" instead of activating the turn signals....:doh

mistercindy
10-13-2009, 12:46 PM
I spent 20 years using Honda's left thumb single button. Six years ago, when I got my first BMW, it took a little time to get used to the three button system, but its now second nature. Ultimately I don't care. The BMW's system is a neat quirk and part of the bike's personality, but if I were forced to choose I'd say that the Honda system makes more sense for several reasons:

Like a car, its all controlled with one left-handed switch. Can you imagine a car with a two or three switch turn signal system?
When you turn, regardless of direction, your thumb is already on the button to turn off the signal. For that reason, IMHO, its easier to remember to turn off the signal on the Honda than the BMW.
Cancelling the signal is the least intuitive part of the three switch system. It'd be better to get rid of the third button for cancelling the signal, and set it up so a second depression of the same switch turns it off. That way, you'd depress the left or right signal, turn left or right, and depress the same left or right signal again having never taking your thumb off of it. I have a friend whose Harley Deuce works that way. IMHO its more intuitive than having a third button for cancellation.
The Honda system never results in horn confusion. I'm embarrased to admit that, after six years and over 75,000 miles with BMW's three button system, I still occassionally screw that up in the heat of a "hornblowing moment."





If the traffic in front of you suddenly stops, you can IMMEDIATELY get your flashers running by punching both buttons with your thumbs and holding them. You can do this without moving your hands or being unable to use the brake and clutch levers.
I didn't know that! I need to check it out.

secondroy
10-14-2009, 02:35 PM
I don't care for them but it's not a deal killer. I have a Kawasaki too and it's so much easier to use the one button.

beemokat
10-15-2009, 02:06 PM
I have the 3 button on my '04, and a 3 position "cheese slicer"* on my '79. Neither of them present a problem, but I actually like the 3 button better.



*guitar guy slang for the for the selector switches on strats and teles ;)

ANDYVH
10-15-2009, 11:47 PM
Personally, I feel ONLY BMW and Harley had the turn signal controls thing figured out logically and as is best ergonomically for the hand and thumb to move. I have always appreciated the BWM system, and I feel every single cycle-media dweeb that complains about the "odd BMW turn signal control placement" is nothing but a whiner not worth listening to. Lemmings following the herd over the cliff.

Even the older BWMs which required a right thumb cancel action (like my 94 R11RS) make total sense to me. After you complete a turn, lets say in town with downshifts/upshifts, which hand is busiest? Your clutch hand! The hand that is busiest accurately moudlating the clutch for good shifting. The throttle hand really has to turn very little, maybe 1/5 turn (heh, heh, fiugure that out) for most riding, and your right thumb is always at the bottom of the grip anyway, right where the cancle switch is! Its natural and logical.

Yet, the cycle media dweebs seem to love the universal LH thumb, twisted up higher/nearly distorted, to operate a cancel switch in, or worse yet SIDEWAYS! Not natural at all. Especially when the system requires the switch to be moved back to cancel. For riders with small hands you have to move the thumb up, move the hand to the right, just when you should be concentrating on clutch action. But to them, this is proper and the BMW system is odd? Jeez, even the RH turn signal control on my 76 R100RS makes more sense. My RH thumb does it all, up for left, down for right, all right where my thumb always is.

I do demo rides for Nick's BMW, and everytime I get on the K1300GT versus the RT or GS, I HATE the new switch gear on the K1300GT, it sucks and feels unnatural. BMW may claim the redesign was done to reduce the size of the grip clusters on the handlebars, or to use the switch space on the RH cluster for other controls. But I only see it as cheaper to run wires to the LH grip versus both grips. Personally, I think the handlebar, switchgear and clusters on the K1300GT look cheap, unfinished and wimpy. But the bike is PHENOMINAL!

Jeffhorn
10-16-2009, 08:22 PM
Took me all of a day to get used to and appreciate the three control system but it's difficult to go to another bike!

72598
10-21-2009, 09:30 PM
I prefer the style developed by either Bates or Buco. (later copied by HD in the late 50s or early 60s) They had the left switch on left and right switch on right. Switches were spring loaded an worked as long as you pressed but stopped when you removed your thumb. (no need to turn off or hit a cancel switch)

When I started riding my PD I left the sigs on all the time because I was not used to turning them off on the HD. With my slash 6 I did not like the one switch set up (too much like a Limey bike but at least it was on the right instead of left like a Honda)

On my Gold Wing I like the self canceling aspect but to put the damn thing on the left bar is just a PITA(especially with gloves) same side as choke, dimmer, horn, flashers and stereo buttons, looks like a keyboard, and if you look really close there is a clutch lever too)

dwestly
10-21-2009, 11:02 PM
... and if you look really close there is a clutch lever too)

:clap

Seriously, another voter for the high beam/flash switch. Easy to get to and use. I switched from a GS to my 1300GT. I liked the separate switches as they ergonomically easier, but its nice not to be confused anymore when I swap from the Beemer to my Duc. (I confuse easily...maybe its old age...)

The_Veg
10-28-2009, 01:26 AM
I suspect that BMW had other reasons than just the press idiots to change controls - maybe some new European Union standard, or something to do with Canbus, or maybe a new supplier emerged. In any case - in my book it is a step backwards.

I suspect that one switch saved them a whopping 30 cents per bike, without which the Quandt family would go bankrupt because then the competition would have such a HUGE price advantage.

/sarcasm

The_Veg
10-28-2009, 01:50 AM
I have more trouble remembering that my car has a floor shift while my SUY and truck have column shifts. My arm grabs at empty air.

You think that's bad...in 1983 my mom traded in her manual-transmission VW Rabbit for a column-shift automatic K-Car...and had to sit on her left foot to keep from trying to work the nonexistent clutch!

ojhengen
11-02-2009, 06:30 PM
easiest to operate turn signals were on my hd electraglides. Simple big button one on each side. Push to turn on. Push to cancel or wait until it self cancelled.

The next best were the ones on my lt and rt. But didn't care for the right thumb up cancel button.

Next is the switch on my 90/6. Pretty simple, up for right, down for left and middle for cancel.

Least favorite is the one on the honda. One switch on a very cluttered control that is almost impossible to operate without looking. God forbid my life ever was to depend on finding the horn.

a big ditto. Why everyone doesn't use that solution is way beyond me. It is easy and foolproof. It is probably the thing i miss most when i get on my bmw, from riding my harley. If i were god, i'd make it the standard for all bikes.

Orv hengen

selyab
11-11-2009, 12:00 AM
The 3 switch is more intuitive to me. The questions I have are why did my '85 K100 have self cancelling turn signals and why my '82 Honda Sabre even had lean angle cancelling turn signals but 20 years later my '03 RT does not! And while I'm at it my K100 had a friction lock on the throttle that the '03 doesn't have. I am not sensing progress here.

MAYLETT
11-11-2009, 01:02 AM
I've been thinking about this. Despite an earlier post saying that I've never liked the three button setup, it's the third button ÔÇö the cancel button ÔÇö that I don't like.

Since signaling then canceling is part of single, coordinated, linear process it seems a bit nonintuitive to break the left-right paradigm halfway through the process by switching to a right hand-only cancellation using an entirely separate button that's shaped and pushed differently.

I agree with what others have said: it makes more sense to have two buttons. Click the right or left button to turn right or left, then click that same button again to cancel. Simple. It doesn't even require moving one's thumb from one switch to another.

PGlaves
11-11-2009, 01:08 AM
I've been thinking about this. Despite an earlier post saying that I've never liked the three button setup, it's the third button — the cancel button — that I don't like.

Since signaling then canceling is part of single, coordinated, linear process it seems a bit nonintuitive to break the left-right paradigm halfway through the process by switching to a right hand-only cancellation using an entirely separate button that's shaped and pushed differently.

I agree with what others have said: it makes more sense to have two buttons. Click the right or left button to turn right or left, then click that same button again to cancel. Simple. It doesn't even require moving one's thumb from one switch to another.

This is exactly what the Kissan Signal Minder causes to happen. And as a bonus the cancel button works too.

Now as a further aside and much to my amusement since I thought the new signals were a step backwards, BMW has launched a recall of an unspecified number of K1300 motorcycles because - yes, because - the new switchgear is acting wonky and killing the engines while they are otherwise attempting to haul you down the fast lane.

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40830

Progress isn't always is it.

cneiditz
11-15-2009, 03:44 AM
Coming off a Honda VFR and riding my (new to me ) 2004 K1200GT, I seem to have a problem canceling the right turn signal. I put the signal on, initiate the turn, and as I roll on the throttle out of the turn it is quite difficult to use my thumb and cancel the signal. Often, I reach over with my left hand to do it. Should I try to be respectful to the other vehicles, and cancel the signal as soon as possible, or should I just let it "time out" and forget about it all together?? What does everyone else do?

GILLY
11-15-2009, 09:51 AM
You can cancel just prior to making the turn if you feel safe doing that, or as soon as the turn is completed.
I used to do cycle license testing and the turn signal is used to signal intent, you don't NEED to signal all the way through the turn, as long as other drivers know you are turning. When testing I would allow up to 1/2 a block after the turn to get them shut off, although I would tell them, after the test, "get the signal shut off sooner after the turn". But if they shut it off just prior to starting the turn, that was OK too.

Gilly

fracture
11-15-2009, 12:23 PM
I have somewhat mixed feelings about this. I do not hate the three switch system but could live with it. The problem is the cancel feature. Right thumb cancels both left and right signal. Not intuitive, at least not for me. I am always wanting to use the horn to cancel the left signal.

I prefer one switch. Why are three switches necessary to do the job of one switch?

GlobalRider
11-15-2009, 12:38 PM
the turn signal is used to signal intent

Amazingly, few know that.

How many put their turn signals on and then let a slew of cars still pass them? Don't try that on the autobahn.

GlobalRider
11-15-2009, 12:41 PM
Why are three switches necessary to do the job of one switch?

I was wondering the same thing about horsepower. My 60HP R100 GS does everything my 85 HP R1150 GS Adventure does....or that the newer ones do.

rcryan
11-15-2009, 03:39 PM
I have a R12GSA and the K13GT. I have thousands of miles on both of these bikes.

Can I acclimate to one button - yes. Do I like one button #$#@! no.

The one button system is significantly less safe than three. Why?

The one button switch is less than 1 sq. cm in size. You need to position your thumb precisely in the right spot to operate the signals. Your hand must be very stable to actuate it correctly.

The three button system - each button being about 3 cm by 1 cm - provides a large forgiving landing pad for your thumb. No thinking. You just swipe your thumb across the switch. I can be on the gas - the brake - the clutch - hand position is not critical.

Maybe when someone sues BMW for downgrading the safety of their bike they'll wake up. I'm a BMW fan because I thought they made the safest bikes on the road. They took a step backwards with this change.

GlobalRider
11-15-2009, 04:07 PM
They took a step backwards with this (one button) change.

You have to remember, some people can't walk and chew gum at the same time. We can be thankful they're not airline pilots.

sugarhillctd
11-15-2009, 04:59 PM
... And while I'm at it my K100 had a friction lock on the throttle that the '03 doesn't have. I am not sensing progress here.

Turn signal switches are one thing- I have a strong suspicion that the friction lock went away due to other (product liability?) reasons.

Mudbug
11-16-2009, 04:30 PM
Old three button signal controls - :thumb
New Japanese style signal controls - :nono

SirRonny
11-17-2009, 11:27 AM
Coming from the Japanese and Harley world, with 35 such bikes in the mix, Harley has the right idea for turn signals. With one button on each side and you push the same button to cancel or let it self cancel, it makes it so easy and intuitive. The Japanese bikes I always had problems with on the one button they had, especially right after I got off one of the Harleys. I can live with the 3 button on the BMW, it is just going to take some getting used to. But I too think it would have been so easy to copy Harley's lead with the two buttons. But, that is just my opinion and you know what they say about those...

Ron

jstrube
11-18-2009, 04:30 AM
Hmmmmm, my second post & I hit this hot button topic! I'm brand new to the 3 button signals & so far, so good, I like them quite a bit, except, as many have said, canceling them. It is very easy to turn them on, but when I go to shut them off, I find myself looking for the button, or feeling around for it. I had the Japanese system down pat, this may take a few weeks... If I could just re-click a button to cancel, I'd be super happy with them!

John.

univibe88
11-22-2009, 02:01 AM
I have somewhat mixed feelings about this. I do not hate the three switch system but could live with it. The problem is the cancel feature. Right thumb cancels both left and right signal. Not intuitive, at least not for me. I am always wanting to use the horn to cancel the left signal.


I used to hit my horn a lot by accident. But I got used to it.

jstrube
11-23-2009, 03:31 AM
I used to hit my horn a lot by accident. But I got used to it.

Today, I rode my Yamaha & hit the horn instead of the left signal... It is below the turn signal... hahahaha!

SirRonny
11-23-2009, 03:37 AM
Same here, I was riding and honked a couple of corners, but I am becoming more aware of it. Everytime I honked my intentions to turn, I would make sure I waved at someone so it looked like I really meant to do it.:brow

E_Page
11-24-2009, 09:09 PM
I used to hit the horn almost as much as the cancel button when trying to turn off a signal. I mostly got over that after about a week. I say mostly because I did exactly that once last week, after more than 16 months of near daily riding on my RT, and not having done it in several months.

I rarely forget to turn off a signal, and forgetting to do so is not a function of button location for me. My previous bike ('82 Yamaha) had signals that self cancelled after a fairly short distance (about 0.1 mi, if I remember right). That was OK in most city driving, but cut out too soon for some highway and other country driving.

For me, it was just a matter of getting used to a different configuration.

Crow18
11-24-2009, 10:39 PM
Now that holiday traffic is starting to pick up (and dumb down), I'm starting to believe that the biggest flaw in my bikes' switchgear is the presence of the horn button on the left side.

I mean, it makes it impossible to use my horn, brakes, and middle finger at the same time. Whose idea was that?

BUDDINGGEEZER
11-24-2009, 10:58 PM
Now that holiday traffic is starting to pick up (and dumb down), I'm starting to believe that the biggest flaw in my bikes' switchgear is the presence of the horn button on the left side.

I mean, it makes it impossible to use my horn, brakes, and middle finger at the same time. Whose idea was that?

That's what a throttle lock is for. right hand bird.:D

Ralph Sims

ANDYVH
11-26-2009, 03:15 AM
Other than to reduce cost (one switch versus three switches), which I bet is the main reason BMW went to the latest switch setup (no honor saying "new") or to make the K13GT more "market compliant" (which has never been a BMW standard), I can see NO gain in the single button turn signal. In fact I just see it as a step backward and in result it actually "cheapens" the bike.

BMW and Harley are the only ones who ever had it right. Now we can say that only Harley has it right.

I don't like the look of the K13GT controls, or the handlebar for that matter. I feel it looks cheap and wimpy. When I demo ride the K13GT at the dealer I work for I have to think about the stupid turn signal control, and quite often my thumbs are swishing away at signal switches that are no longer there. Nope, don't like it at all. If BMW really wanted to make the system better, why not just have the two switch system like a Harley, where a second press of the same button cancels the signal?

Also, the current self cancelling system cancels too early in many cases! When I demo ride/lead a test rider, I often have to hit the turn signal switch at least twice to make sure it stays active up to the turn. Or, I have to wait to get too close to the turn to signal. Not too close for me, but too close for a following rider to catch that I have the turn signal on! I could forsee some rider leading a group ride on a BMW with new self cancelling signals that has a following rider hit him on RH turn because the signal went off, and the following rider went straight as the lead rider turns right.

marchyman
11-26-2009, 03:17 AM
Other than to reduce cost (one switch versus three switches), which I bet it the main reason BMW went to the latest switch setup (no honor saying "new") or to make the K13GT more "market compliant" (which has never been a BMW standard), I can see NO gain in the single button turn signal. In fact I just see it as a step backward and in result it actually "cheapens" the bike.

When I first heard of the change I assumed it was to make way for paddle shifter levers 2-4 years down the road. :dunno

58058D
11-26-2009, 03:28 AM
Hmmmmm....referring to Andy's post, the prior self cancel was not much longer if any. I always hit mine on my K12RS a couple times if I am leading someone. Sometimes it is not another rider but just lamebrains on the freeway, etc. The signal (new or old style) is long enough that the following rider, knowing the one ahead is leading him/her, should pickup that a change is coming. Then, more often than not, the turn signal is followed by a brake light. While I agree the new cancel seems a tad quick, I hope we are all paying enough attention on group rides that your scenario does not happen. Like Marchyman, I assume new things are coming along with the trend toward homologation to the 'world norm'.

SirRonny
11-26-2009, 10:56 AM
BMW and Harley are the only ones who ever had it right. Now we can say that only Harley has it right.



I am on the road and unfortunately it is not on my bike, so I can check this out, but there was something else I liked about my previous Harley's turn signals. That is if you held the button in, the signals would continue to flash until you let go of it and it self canceled or you pressed the button again to stop the flashing. Is the BMW the same way, not the press again to cancel, I know that isn't the case, but the holding it in to keep it flashing? I would think yes, but since I can't check it out, I was just curious.

Ron

GILLY
11-26-2009, 11:54 AM
Hmmmmm....referring to Andy's post, the prior self cancel was not much longer if any.

I agree, my 1200GT I feel also self-cancels a bit too soon. Not sure oabout city speeds (it does vary according to the bike speed i believe), but at highway speeds, it does cancel too soon. I have to be very aware if there is a vehicle behind me and be ready to push the turn button a second time. Mainly, because you don't want the following vehicle to believe you've changed your mind about turning. Once you START the turn it doesn't matter, that's why I like Harleys lean-angle system. Harleys system is really great, best thing they've designed since.......well OK it's the BEST thing they ever designed:nyah

Gilly

JAMESDUNN
11-26-2009, 12:32 PM
Same here, I was riding and honked a couple of corners, but I am becoming more aware of it. Everytime I honked my intentions to turn, I would make sure I waved at someone so it looked like I really meant to do it.:brow

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

glenfiddich
11-26-2009, 01:21 PM
I'm used to the 3-button system, but prefer the one button simply because with my relatively small hands I sometimes find it difficult to cancel while rolling on the throttle.

But since this, according to my wife, is the last bike I'm ever going to have, I've pretty much got over it.

Pete

ANDYVH
12-01-2009, 07:00 AM
One thing I have never liked about any of the non-BMW (HD exception) turn signal controls, is the way I have to rotate my thumb up, and move it right or left to operate the switch. Very unnatural, and to my engineer/ergonomic mindset, simply wrong. Sure, one switch to do the functions is great, but the hand/thumb motions to move the switch is not natural.

Now, on the K13GT, BMW has done it better than the others. But it is still not a natural placement of the left hand thumb to operate the switch while also operating the clutch, which you do after almost every turn.

Not only that, but the other switches on the left cluster have to take secondary precendence to the turn signal switch. On my 94 R11RS, I have always liked the large low/hi beam switch because it is so easy to use. I do a lot of night riding, and the lo/hi beam switch is very easy to use on my BMW compared to any other bike.

In my mind, ANY controls on a bike, that take much more than a natural thought or action to operate, are simply not right.

Jeffhorn
12-01-2009, 10:33 PM
It took just a few rides to get used to the BNW system and I love it. Riding other bikes makes me realize how good the three control sysyem is. Too bad other manufactures didn't go the BNW way instead of BMW going to the "dark side".+

marchyman
12-02-2009, 12:53 AM
One thing I have never liked about any of the non-BMW (HD exception) turn signal controls, is the way I have to rotate my thumb up, and move it right or left to operate the switch.

On which axis are you rotating your thumb? I lift my thumb, hitting the cancel with the side of my thumb. If you are twisting your thumb so the fleshy pad hits the cancel.... why? Or am I getting the wrong picture from the term "rotate".

DPRYAN
12-02-2009, 05:29 PM
It took just a few rides to get used to the BNW system and I love it. Riding other bikes makes me realize how good the three control sysyem is. Too bad other manufactures didn't go the BNW way instead of BMW going to the "dark side".+

I've found all these posts really interesting, even though I am clearly in the minority (that's OK, I can handle it :D ).

While I certainly "got used" to the 3 button system, I find it a little awkward and contrived compared to the simple, one-button system on my Connie. Maybe it's because my first 3 bikes were Japanese, but the "left to turn left, right to turn right, push to cancel" system always struck me as simple and intuitive. The button is right where my thumb can access it. Not to mention the contoured horn button right below it, also easy to get to in an emergency.

I've never had a problem when switching back and forth between bikes, but after riding both for a year and a half there's no question which one I prefer.

To each their own! :beer

ANDYVH
12-03-2009, 09:37 PM
On my bikes that have had the single switch on the left cluster, the switch is usually near the centerline of the bar end. So for smaller hands to operate it, I have to take my thumb from below the grip, rotate it up (or rotate my hand up) and then move my thumb sideways. Not natrual at all for me. Maybe your hands are bigger than mine.

pairowheels
12-06-2009, 01:50 AM
While it is unlikely that I will ever buy another Harley, I am willing to concede that HD has the best turn signal system in the industry. The 2 button system is intuitive: left button for left turn, right button for right turn. If you don't initiate a turn within a specified time, the signal will self-cancel. If you're stopped at a traffic light with a brake light activated, the timer will suspend until you release the brake. If you initiate a turn by throttle changes combined with a lean angle, the system senses that you are making a turn and will self-cancel by the time you complete the turn by returning the bike to vertical and increasing throttle. I find the BMW 3 button system stays on too long after I complete a turn. If I don't manually cancel, the signal continues flashing for a couple of hundred yards after the turn has been completed. Can't say I like the single button as well as the 3-button system, because the 3-button does have the same advantage that the Harley system has, i.e., if you need emergency signals the multi-button systems allow such activatin by pressing both left and right buttons simultaneously. Easy.