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LCBIKEMAN
10-01-2009, 03:04 AM
Anyone have experience with alternative fuels of any sort? I wonder about engine performance, engines altered to burn the fuels, etc. Wondered at anyone's experimentation or home-built? Has BMW tested a Hydrogen powered motorcycle engine?

lkchris
10-01-2009, 04:38 PM
The guvmint is currently making you use an alternate fuel, i.e. a 10% ethanol blend. Want more?

PlaneGeek
10-01-2009, 07:07 PM
The guvmint is currently making you use an alternate fuel, i.e. a 10% ethanol blend. Want more?

Frankly yes, I see KTM & Honda working with electric bikes in racing. I'd love to see our boys & girls do that. One of the biggest reasons why I'm on a bike is so that I reduce my 'addiction' to oil.

108625
10-01-2009, 07:31 PM
This month's issue of Motorcyclist was all about "green" bikes, from alternative fuels to fully electric.
Also of interest:
The US Marine Corps has been using diesel (or JP-8) powered Kawasaki KLR 650's for a couple years now.

astrin
10-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Be sure to read this nice article in Technology Review about the first non-emissions FIM-sponsored (read "electric") motorcycle race at the Isle of Man TT this year:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23172/

The winners were Team Agni, a couple of privateers from the UK and India. Their patented "pancake" motor will be available on (rather expensive) production bikes next year.

PlaneGeek
10-02-2009, 07:10 PM
This month's issue of Motorcyclist was all about "green" bikes, from alternative fuels to fully electric.
Also of interest:
The US Marine Corps has been using diesel (or JP-8) powered Kawasaki KLR 650's for a couple years now.

Now that would be fun! Of course one big advantage for them is to streamline their supply chain. A very good idea!

RTFlyer
10-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Electric motors=lotsa' torque!!!!:dance


...and check this out!

http://www.dieselmotorcycles.eu/dieselmotorcycle_info.htm

TomBarnhart
10-03-2009, 01:24 PM
DUH !!! Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or natural gas.

Batteries are made from a product mined in Canada using diesel fuel powered equipment, processed in the US (with electricity), shiped to China in a boat powered by diesel or crude oil, assembled in Japan using more electicity, then shipped back to the US--see ship power above, then distributed in a truck powered by diesel.

Get real folks....

The carbon footprint of a Prius is significantly higher than a Hummer, and a lot harder to recycle once it dies.

Guenther
10-04-2009, 04:18 AM
Tom,

that is my understanding as well. Fuel cells and hydrogen produced with renewable energy - maybe someday. But not for motorcycles. The end of fossile fuel could mean the end of riding a motorcycle. So, Y"ALL ENJOY IT NOW!

Occassionally I see Matt Parkhouse flizzing around in town on his electric powered BMW tricycle (as well as his electric powered VW Microbus). It can be done, but it would be tough to make it to a BMW rally...recharging every 30 miles.

Oh, and there is this guy from Wyoming who show up on rallies now-and-then on a diesel powered Enfield built in India. Goes 130 mpg, max 60 mph. The company in Indian stopped building the diesel version a couple of years ago.

A diesel powered GS from BMW? I think I would buy this in an iffy.

/Guenther

astrin
10-04-2009, 12:56 PM
DUH !!! Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or natural gas.

In a dying, fossil-fuel-driven society, yes. But not in the future. Part of the solution is to get our transportation infrastructure off of fossil fuels as WELL as our electricity generation. There are many parts of the solution, the problem is massive.

I personally believe that nuclear fusion is the only long-term solution to clean electricity production, combined with, of course, the electrified rail, personal transportation, home energy use, and other energy infrastructure changes that need to be made to get us off of fossil fuels. In the meantime, I'd sure like to see nuclear fission brought back -- modern fission plants are way safer and more well-made than the old designs we used to use. Europe has moved so far ahead in nuclear fission over the intervening years.

Electric motorcycles are a tiny, but highly visible, start. They can be a cute poster child for electric vehicles. They don't solve any significant problems. Those are much, much bigger problems, the largest humans have ever faced.

And regarding the environmental footprint of batteries - yes, a serious drawback, right now. But we're still very early in development. It's a huge mistake to evaluate the whole Big Project simply in terms of what's been achieved to date.

We have barely even begun.

TomBarnhart
10-04-2009, 02:19 PM
I love nukes, we have a nuke powered power plant in our backyard. The only drawback is the biased press and the vocal anti-nuke crowd. Anytime there is a problem, no matter how small, the local news morons go out and take pictures of the cooling towers and recite the Chicken Little anthem.

PlaneGeek
10-04-2009, 10:40 PM
DUH !!! Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or natural gas.

Not if you are smart enought to purchase wind only energy. :wave And solar is looking like a good addition to our house when I have to re-roof it in 5 years. BTW did I mention earlier that by going from my old 30+ mpg Honda Civic to my 50+ mpg R1200RT I burn over 900 gallons of fuel less a year? :nyah:bikes

GREGFUESS
10-04-2009, 10:58 PM
Electric motors=lotsa' torque!!!!:dance


...and check this out!

http://www.dieselmotorcycles.eu/dieselmotorcycle_info.htm

Looks like a rotary (read Wankel or Mazda RX-8 style) motor...

GREGFUESS
10-04-2009, 11:08 PM
DUH !!! Electricity is made from burning oil, coal or natural gas.

Batteries are made from a product mined in Canada using diesel fuel powered equipment, processed in the US (with electricity), shiped to China in a boat powered by diesel or crude oil, assembled in Japan using more electicity, then shipped back to the US--see ship power above, then distributed in a truck powered by diesel.

Get real folks....

The carbon footprint of a Prius is significantly higher than a Hummer, and a lot harder to recycle once it dies.

Hum, Tom I feel compelled to correct this often quoted and very incorrect statement regarding carbon footprints. The statement that is correctly quoted is that the Prius requires considerable energy to produce. The comparison is generally left to the uninformed to draw the incorrect comparison to other vehicles.

But if you feel compelled in your believe to misstate facts, please quote your sources.

My source for the statement that the Prius has the smallest carbon footprint of any passenger car is from http://missionzero.org/categories/1-Science-Technology/saved_entries/358-Top-10-Low-Carbon-Footprint-Cars-and-one-SUV-for-2009

Guenther
10-05-2009, 02:53 AM
gregfuess,

the website you mentioned talks about the carbon footprint of the vehicle in operation and not about the enviromental impact of building and "disposing" the vehicle. Given all the extra electronic stuff in a hybrid and the battery on top I think a Hummer - overall - could still be "greener".

TomBarnhart,

ah, and about that nuclear power plant. If you like it in your backyard you sure like to have the spent fuel rods sitting there as well to give you a bright shining face for hundreds of years to come.

Iceland - before it financially collapsed - had plans to be oil independent by 2023(?). The idea was to use their geothermal resources plus the abandons of water to produce electricity with steam driven turbines. Use the electricity to make hydrogen and use it in fuel cells to power electric cars. They had it all nicely laid out and calculated until the country financially imploded over a year ago.

A nice report on the discovery(?) channel showed that if we plaster 10% of Nevada with solar panels it would produce all the electricity we generate by fossil fuels in the US today. So theoretically that might be feasible. Only some "minor" (haha) issues like 24 our availability and transportation of the electrons need to be resolved.

Btw. I don't believe any car can be "green". Greener, yeah. Only a horse drawn buggy comes close to be really "green".

...my view on things.

/Guenther

mika
10-05-2009, 12:44 PM
Rumors have started surfacing that BMW will introduce a hybrid concept at the Milan show early next year. moto-station.com (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.moto-station.com/article6946.html&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=iso-8859-1) translated: BMW ÔÇô Soon a two wheel hybrid?

In the cage world they have begun to emphasize diesels more in the BMW line but have always ruled that out for bikes in the past. They have been working on hydrogen in the 7 series. The weight of the gas tanks always seemed to be a deterrent to a motorcycle application in my mind. MINI has been where BMW has pushed electric vehicles and has brought an e-MINI to the street. They could go either way with a bike concept but I would guess electric of some sort.

knary
10-05-2009, 01:11 PM
FWIW,
The charge that a Prius is more polluting than a traditional vehicle hinges largely on the amount of pollution produced in the manufacturing of the batteries - specifically the mining of the nickel used in the batteries. That amount of pollution isn't fixed and has, by most accounts, dropped dramatically in recent years.

But then amongst our two cars is a beater of a Honda Civic. Nearly 40 mpg, if I remember to keep the tires inflated. :D

GREGFUESS
10-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Not only is the focus on the nickel used in the battery, but the focus is from a consultants blog, supported by absolutely no data. The data on the carbon footprints for cars evaluated on an equal and stated basis is for the Prius, Insight, etc.

So who does the blogger with the big ideas and no data work for? Yup, API and GM.

mika
10-06-2009, 02:00 PM
Timely and hot off the press from BMW PressClub -

BMW Motorrad study for urban traffic. BMW C1-E: concept for a higher level of safety in the city.
• 06.10.2009
• Press Release
Munich. This is what a safe, environment-friendly and highly practical single track vehicle for city traffic could look like in the future. BMW Motorrad developed the C1-E study as a contribution to the European safety project eSUM. This study unit is based on the concept of the BMW C1. It is characterized by a very high level of active and passive safety and is driven by an electric motor.

The BMW C1-E provides exemplary protection for its rider. This is ensured by the safety cell with the conspicuous roll-over bar which dynamically spans the rider seat in combination with the energy-absorbing impact element at the nose end. A further special point is that the C1-E rider wears a seat-belt. In the study this safety feature is highlighted by red belts and belt buckles.

Visually the concept vehicle expresses brand typical sheer driving pleasure and clearly distinguishes itself from typical scooter looks. Its lines are dynamically stretched and flow horizontally with a low visual centre of gravity. The fairing with its windscreen, the luggage space behind the rider and the side stand for effortless parking ensure high suitability for everyday riding combined with a high degree of wind and weather protection.

The electric motor employed in the study has been designed for city use and is based on components by the company Vectrix. The motor obtains its power from a lithium-ion battery and thus possesses sufficient power for mastering most inner-city traffic riding with ease. Alternatively the vehicle could also be equipped with an efficient, low-emissions internal combustion engine.

The safety features of the C1-E have been taken from the former BMW C1 and further enhanced. BMW's avant-garde two-wheeler is regarded as a milestone in safety on two wheels. It is the only motorised single-track vehicle to be exempt from mandatory helmet wearing in almost all European countries.

This BMW Motorrad study is to remain the only model of its kind. Series production is currently not planned. Nevertheless, findings from the project will find their way into other future developments in the field of single-track vehicles.

eSUM stands for European Safer Urban Motorcycling. It is a cooperation project between major urban European motorcycling centres and motorcycle manufacturers. The cities currently involved in the project include Paris, Rome, Barcelona and London and the manufacturers are BMW and Piaggio.

The advantage of two-wheeled transportation is that it offers a great opportunity for improving the flow of traffic in urban locations. Moreover, it is environmentally friendly and lends itself to individualisation. However, the vast majority of accidents occur in urban traffic, in areas where 80 percent of the population live. The idea behind eSum is to look into ways of countering this trend. The joint goal is the identification, development, and practical demonstration of measures which are able to guarantee safe motorcycle and motor-scooter transport in the inner-city traffic of the future.

One of BMW Motorrad's major concerns over the last twenty years has been the improvement of motorcycle safety. This was amply demonstrated by the consistent strategy which has led to the Motorrad ABS and continued with its long-term ongoing development. Only a few weeks ago, on August 31, the 1,000,000th BMW motorcycle with Integral ABS, a BMW K 1300 R, left the production line in Berlin-Spandau.

Since 2005, a series of further active safety features have been developed to enhance the safety BMW motorcycles still further: RDC Tyre Pressure Control, ASC Anti-Slip Control, the new Race ABS and the DTC Traction Control incorporated in the new BMW S 1000 RR, not to mention the innovative range of BMW Motorrad rider equipment.

Over and above this, BMW Motorrad is also conducting research into forward-looking rider assistance systems designed to increased road safety, as part of the ConnectedRide project. Features being looked at include cross-traffic and traffic-light assistance as well as a warning system for impending poor weather, road obstacles, an approaching emergency vehicle, or sudden braking manoeuvres.

http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/672142947_qnVbj-S.jpg
Gallery (http://m1ka.smugmug.com/Other/C1e/9873253_o2Bx4/1/672143055_o5HBB)

hellforleathermagzine.com (http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/10/bmw-c1-e-enclosed-electricity.html) has an article on the BMW C1e

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/galleries/assets_c/2009/10/BMW_C1-E_1-thumb-415x286-6293.jpg

The C1e is currently powered by a motor/battery combination from Vectrix ( http://www.vectrix.com/). Vectrix produces electric scooters and was the first to come out with a viable electric superbike ( http://www.gizmag.com/vectrix-electric-superbike/8395/). Vectix also is a prime example of the real problem of going green with electric bikes or cars; the problem is not is the technology or production cycle green or not that will happen over time, the real problem is they are not gr$$n! Vectix is on the verge of bankruptcy.

GREGFUESS
10-07-2009, 02:37 AM
Not sure the innovative power plant really benefits from the extremely stylized look. Thought provoking look though somewhat similar to previous attempts by BMW.

Guenther
10-07-2009, 03:46 AM
Look at that beak...IT'S A "GS". :clap

/Guenther

mika
10-07-2009, 12:58 PM
Neiman Marcus ( http://www.neimanmarcus.com/store/catalog/templates/F0.jhtml?itemId=cat24140733&parentId=cat000672&masterId=cat000000&icid=home1_2_cb) has 10 Mission One ( http://ridemission.com/blog/2009/10/introducing-the-neiman-marcus-mission-one/) electric superbikes for sale in its Christmas catalogue.

http://photos.imageevent.com/motorbiker/newspics3/Neiman-Marcus-Mission-One.jpg

Polarbear
10-07-2009, 01:54 PM
We already worry about "brown outs" in our Summer months, with lack of electricty, as we turn our ACs down and cool our homes! Nuclear Energy is the ONLY form of juice we have knowledge of that can manage the output required for a USA on electric cars. Your panels and wind turbines are going to have to carpet half the planet to keep up! Do the math? AND, we've had the tech already for 30+ years to make a vehicle go 100mpg on gas or natural gas! There's NO winning this war with a EPA Gov't and politicians and green orgs all fighting in court rooms over how to solve this. Its never ending! France has one thing right in my recent memory and its their Nuke Power Plants, such an obviuos choice and they have us whooped in that area...Randy...PS; We're never likely to run out of natural resources, like oil as so many on the far left have suggested and Global Warming is a subject of the same minds.

mika
10-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Infrastructure is the issue for any of the systems for powering transportation. The concerns for additional demand on power systems are a legitimate one but only look at part of the issue. How and when electric cars/bikes are recharged is another part of the equation.

When: peak v off peak times.
If use and range of electrics can funnel the plug in charging time to off peak hours the additional demand would have little or no impact on a power systems current ability to deliver electricity to the grid. In fact off peak demand could add profit and or lower over all costs of a system by better utilizing currently unutilized capacity.

How electric vehicles are recharged
The standard way that comes to mind is plugging the thing in, but that is not the only way.
- KERS: kinetic energy recovery systems, I hate them in F1 cars, do provide a way of recharging batteries and storing power at other parts of the grid
- Solar: In the case of the BMW C1e the ÔÇÿroofÔÇÖ provides a place to put a solar panel. It would not totally recharge the bike but would be part of an integrated system of recharging.
- Wind at the vehicle level. Harnessing some of the air moving across the surface of a vehicle as it moves and using it to run a turbine that generates power to recharge the batteries or even take over running the motor in part.
- Charging Filling Stations: If battery packs for bikes and cars came in standardized forms then a battery stations could be set up where you would come in and exchange your drained battery pack for a freshly charged one.

Are we totally nuts? Yes, if we donÔÇÖt have intelligent thoughtful discussions of old and new technologies how to use them best as a society or how not to use them.

GREGFUESS
10-07-2009, 05:00 PM
We already worry about "brown outs" in our Summer months, with lack of electricty, as we turn our ACs down and cool our homes! Nuclear Energy is the ONLY form of juice we have knowledge of that can manage the output required for a USA on electric cars. Your panels and wind turbines are going to have to carpet half the planet to keep up! Do the math? AND, we've had the tech already for 30+ years to make a vehicle go 100mpg on gas or natural gas! There's NO winning this war with a EPA Gov't and politicians and green orgs all fighting in court rooms over how to solve this. Its never ending! France has one thing right in my recent memory and its their Nuke Power Plants, such an obviuos choice and they have us whooped in that area...Randy...PS; We're never likely to run out of natural resources, like oil as so many on the far left have suggested and Global Warming is a subject of the same minds.

Polar Bear, Please help me to understand your position with references to support the need for nuclear energy. From what I have read, the easiest source of energy the American public can access is increased efficiency. Various sources, including the Texas Observer has quoted experts indicating that if we increased energy efficiency by 10%, we would need no new plants in the next 10~15 years. When I recently needed a new AC (a necessity in Houston), the incremental cost of increasing efficency from a SEER 14 to SEER 18 was about 20% more money. The energy savings has been dramatic.

Nuclear, on the other had is not cheap, merely subsidized (which means, like the bank bailouts, we end up paying for it in the end, either through increased utility bills or nuclear waste in our backyard). And considering Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, etc and that every plant completed has cost more than 2x budgeted estimates, the fact that we have no permenanent storage or disposal plan for the radioactive waste, and therefore do not know that cost, either I am curious what the basis is for the proposition that this is a reasonable choice. Interesting topic, but I wonder if it is appropriate to the forum?

mika
10-08-2009, 12:45 AM
Not sure the innovative power plant really benefits from the extremely stylized look. Thought provoking look though somewhat similar to previous attempts by BMW.

It is an extension of their C1 production model. I am a daily commuter and frankly for 90+% of what I use my Roadster for the original C1 or this C1e could do it just as well or better.

Here are links to a series I posted back in 2006 about the C1

Part I (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14558&highlight=Morning+Reads%3A+December+2006) of my series on the BMW C1 began in the Morning Reads: 28 December 2006. Scroll down for the introduction. The following links should take you to the three part follow up covering the original C1.

BWM C1: Part II ( http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=172956&highlight=Jeremy+Clarkson#post172956)

BMW C1: Part III ( http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=173259&highlight=Jeremy+Clarkson#post173259)

BMW C1: Part IV ( http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=173508&highlight=Jeremy+Clarkson#post173508)

GDWBEEMER
10-08-2009, 04:06 PM
Not if you are smart enought to purchase wind only energy. :wave And solar is looking like a good addition to our house when I have to re-roof it in 5 years. BTW did I mention earlier that by going from my old 30+ mpg Honda Civic to my 50+ mpg R1200RT I burn over 900 gallons of fuel less a year? :nyah:bikes

900 gallons is a reasonable fuel savings, but not many of us drive the 67,500 miles per year necessary to do so.

535IS
10-08-2009, 05:49 PM
PS; We're never likely to run out of natural resources, like oil as so many on the far left have suggested

Only in the sense that "never" is after your lifetime. :banghead

But that's OK. We need the short-sighted like you so we can distinguish the visionaries ... :D

mika
10-09-2009, 04:59 PM
BMW TV put out this piece you might find interesting.

October 08, 2009
Simple is the acronym for ÔÇ£sustainable and innovative mobility product for low energy consumptionÔÇØ, a vehicle concept combining features and advantages of both motorcars and motorcycles. The concept owes its protective passenger compartment to motorcars whereas the streamline shape, the two occupants seated one behind the other and the uniquely driving experience are naturally owed to motorcycles. Whilst researching ideas for futuristic urban mobility combined with the prerequisite of reduced consumption (less than 2l /100 km eqals less than 120mpg) and emission values (50g CO2 /100 km), the BMW Group spawned this concept vehicle featuring the extremely low weight of 450 kg and aerodynamic drag properties (0,18 drag coefficient), which of course also fulfilled all the BMW Group premium brand demands: sheer driving pleasure, innovative vehicle configuration, technology integration and a sense of comfort and spaciousness.

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</object>

mika
10-14-2009, 07:18 PM
spiegel.de/international (http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,655107,00.html#ref=rss): The coming energy revolution

Guenther
10-15-2009, 02:44 AM
Yeah, and the only two wheeler you'll get is a stationary exercise bicycle with a dynamo to power your virtual reality system with option A) you riding an Electra Glide into the sunset of Monument Valley or, B) you riding on an ADV on the Alcan in deep mud chasing grizzlies.

/Guenther

mika
10-23-2009, 11:51 AM
green.autoblog.com ( http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/22/dell-prepares-for-plug-ins-with-solar-powered-parking-lot/): Dell prepares for plug-ins with solar powered parking lot

Guenther
10-24-2009, 02:32 AM
And where are the tents where the car owners can stay until their car's battery is charged?

I saw some figures it takes hours to charge an electric car battery after a 50 miles trip.

Let's take an electric car motor with 20 kW (~26 hp) for half an hour trip to the office that needs 10 kWh to charge the battery or, 1,250 Watts over 8 hours. Looking at some of the panels available today you would need a ~100 sqft panel to do that charging in 8 hours (at perfect sunlight).

Or roughly 6 panel insets shown on the Dell picture. So one of the large "roof" panels would charge 10 cars. As many as would fit under that "roof". All using a moderate size motor and perfect daylight.

Sounds technically feasible (if I haven't made one of these stupid calculation errors/assumptions). Might even work well where Dell's HQ is.

/Guenther

GSFORNOW
10-24-2009, 12:42 PM
Be sure to read this nice article in Technology Review about the first non-emissions FIM-sponsored (read "electric") motorcycle race at the Isle of Man TT this year:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23172/

The winners were Team Agni, a couple of privateers from the UK and India. Their patented "pancake" motor will be available on (rather expensive) production bikes next year.


Electric vehicles are "remote emission" vehicles not non emission. As pointed pointed out above the electicity to charge them comes from somewhere and then you have the whole battery production and disposal issue. Many do not seem to look at the entire picture. Another example would be the CFL lamps, they contain mercury and to make them acceptable to consumers the price had to come down so many of the cheaper models are built with tranformers that disrupt the power curve. If another lamp type is not developed or more efficient transformers are not used the power suppliers will be required to spend millions to correct the power quality issues. Guess who will pay for that.

dockeithdc
10-24-2009, 12:43 PM
In a recent Popular Mechanics article they stated that the automobile (motorcycle) consumption of petro fuel is about 1% when compared to other consumers. The highest levels of consumption are by electoplants and oil used in home heating/industry heating. Here in PA. we are sitting on huge supplies on natural gas that the powers to be are "paying" gas companies to "stop finding"!

At this point I'm not willing to fly in any plane that operates on anything other than aviation fuel and I will continue to heat my home with clean natural gas and ride my RT to and from the office.

It appears to me that often the most "green" are often the highest consumers!:stick