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View Full Version : NEW: Final Drive Fluid level is 180ml.



MALLOY
05-31-2009, 01:10 PM
THIS JUST IN: 5/09: The new fluid level is 180 ml: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462586&page=10 based on a BMW notice # US 233428 24-01. It should be 180(new) http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466921&page=2&highlight=final+drive

This apparently applies to all the R1200GSes at least.:dunno

marchyman
05-31-2009, 07:03 PM
Old news. :deal

cjack broke the news here about three weeks ago: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=35751

Semper_Fi
05-31-2009, 07:24 PM
Thanks for posting the information anyway Malloy :thumb

Better to have it twice - than not at all!!

Polarbear
06-02-2009, 02:38 AM
Is it the same? I use 235cc and this is what it was and has been changed to, for my last few times. ML/CC? Randy BMW change it again? :usa

mneblett
06-02-2009, 03:01 AM
Is it the same? I use 235cc and this is what it was and has been changed to, for my last few times. ML/CC? Randy BMW change it again? :usaMilliliters = cubic centimeters, so 180 of either is the new spec.

Polarbear
06-03-2009, 12:00 AM
The folks at BMW seem to be all over the board with their recommendations! I know it was 235cc for some time and it was posted all over the web sites. I have 32000 now and with 235, its been perfectly happy. I'm going to ask more questions of my dealer, but to what end as it seems to change with the wind, from BMW. Randy:thumb

Polarbear
06-03-2009, 12:16 AM
Mine has the same bulletin on hand and agrees, the 180cc is the new, for reasons of too much oil, equals pressure build up and seal failures. I love trial and error, via owners. What ever happened to "engineering skills" to know this before hand. Mathematically speaking, this should have been a no brainer for the designers to have figured out, even before the bikes were built and sold. Best plans of mice and men, go unfiltered sometimes and we have to go the trial and error route, yes:). Randy:violin :thumb :scratch

Harrington
06-03-2009, 01:17 AM
I wouldn't fret too much. It gives BMW owners something to whine about. What would they do if they couldn't blame something on the factory?

H.Ellars
06-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Does this new 180ml fluid level pertain to all R1200 model years and models?

mosrrt
06-03-2009, 11:59 AM
So after the drive is drained and put back, can we fill thru the drain plug to a point where the new oil is at the botom of the drain plug?? :scratch
Mike

deilenberger
06-03-2009, 01:23 PM
Does this new 180ml fluid level pertain to all R1200 model years and models?Yes.

deilenberger
06-03-2009, 01:26 PM
So after the drive is drained and put back, can we fill thru the drain plug to a point where the new oil is at the botom of the drain plug?? :scratch
MikeNot really. The drain plug - assuming you're talking pre-2009 bikes where the plug is at 9PM roughly - will be in a different position depending on the bike in question. A GS will have the plug slightly different than an RT resulting in a different level, or not being able to get the 180ml in...

It's not a reliable measurement. It really isn't all that hard to remove the speed sensor to fill it as the instructions recommend, and that's what I'd recommend.

henzilla
06-03-2009, 02:22 PM
So after the drive is drained and put back, can we fill thru the drain plug to a point where the new oil is at the botom of the drain plug?? :scratch
Mike

As Don already mentioned, you cannot just fill to plug...I did a service on a R1200R and the 180 ml did not come out the drain when I had it open to vent. I bet it will on the GS and not hold the 180 without spilling some out.

leadfoot
06-04-2009, 12:31 PM
So all that said, if I had placed 230ml (syn) in the FD on my last service, should I just wait until the next service interval and comply, or change it now? My guess is that if it was that critical, we would be directed to change it immediately if it was more than 180ml in the FD.

greenwald
06-04-2009, 12:48 PM
Not really. The drain plug - assuming you're talking pre-2009 bikes where the plug is at 9PM roughly - will be in a different position depending on the bike in question. A GS will have the plug slightly different than an RT resulting in a different level, or not being able to get the 180ml in...

It's not a reliable measurement. It really isn't all that hard to remove the speed sensor to fill it as the instructions recommend, and that's what I'd recommend.

Just out of curiosity Don........where is the 'drain' on my '05 R1200RT?

I just had the 36,000 mi. service done, and per the most recent BMW bulletin, the FD was changed out to the recommended 180 ml, but I'm not sure where or how it was drained.

Thanks.

henzilla
06-04-2009, 01:01 PM
Just out of curiosity Don........where is the 'drain' on my '05 R1200RT?

I just had the 36,000 mi. service done, and per the most recent BMW bulletin, the FD was changed out to the recommended 180 ml, but I'm not sure where or how it was drained.

Thanks.

The drain is the plug at 9 O'clock, the FD is tilted at the pivot after unbolting the torque arm and drained thru that hole. Refill is done thru the speed sensor on the backside of FD. The new style has that plug at 6 O'clock now and you do not have to unbolt/pivot the FD

hlothery
06-04-2009, 01:01 PM
Just out of curiosity Don........where is the 'drain' on my '05 R1200RT?

I just had the 36,000 mi. service done, and per the most recent BMW bulletin, the FD was changed out to the recommended 180 ml, but I'm not sure where or how it was drained.

Thanks.

I believe on our models, they have to pull the FD assembly and tilt it down to drain.....there is no drain plug. They they fill it through the sensor hole. I had mine changed by the dealer and almost immediately, and for the first time ever, it began to seep around the seal on the drive side. Just had that replaced. I am still wondering if I needed to do that, if they just overfilled it, if the seepage would have stopped when it got down to 180ml, etc. Guess I'll never really know.

Semper_Fi
06-04-2009, 02:07 PM
I believe on our models, they have to pull the FD assembly and tilt it down to drain.....there is no drain plug. They they fill it through the sensor hole. I had mine changed by the dealer and almost immediately, and for the first time ever, it began to seep around the seal on the drive side. Just had that replaced. I am still wondering if I needed to do that, if they just overfilled it, if the seepage would have stopped when it got down to 180ml, etc. Guess I'll never really know.

Here is the drain and fill procedure done on my wife's 2005 R1200ST

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33229

Note - I just updated the procedure to call out to 180ml.

hlothery
06-04-2009, 03:15 PM
Here is the drain and fill procedure done on my wife's 2005 R1200ST

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33229

Note - I just updated the procedure to call out to 180ml.

Thanks. That almost looks simple enough for even me to do it. Is it really that easy? Are there pitfalls which may end up in disaster?

Semper_Fi
06-04-2009, 03:34 PM
The only thing that is sometimes an issue is the recoupling of the drive shaft to the rear drive.

It is an alignment issue - if you prealign it helps alot and pops in.

After a few times you get the feel of it.

The first time i did it it took a few trys and can now do it on the first try about 90% of the time.

Other than that take your time and it is straight forward. :thumb

Luis

The_Veg
06-04-2009, 05:31 PM
My easy method: with one hand, lift the drive until the shaft and pinion can make contact. With the other hand, ensure that they line up straight, then jiggle the brake disc back and forth to get the splines to pop in. Very simple end easy, takes seconds.

Semper_Fi
06-04-2009, 06:08 PM
My easy method: with one hand, lift the drive until the shaft and pinion can make contact. With the other hand, ensure that they line up straight, then jiggle the brake disc back and forth to get the splines to pop in. Very simple end easy, takes seconds.


That pretty much nails it - the only thing is, if you haven't done it is getting to know the alignment dance.

Nice description.

The only thing i would add is check your disc for any grease you may have left behind!

DAMHIK :laugh

marchyman
06-04-2009, 08:06 PM
where is the 'drain' on my '05 R1200RT?

It's that plug facing rear on final drive. The drive is disconnected from the paralever link and flopped down 90 degrees so the plug is at the bottom for draining.


18011

azgman
06-04-2009, 09:02 PM
I believe on our models, they have to pull the FD assembly and tilt it down to drain.....there is no drain plug. They they fill it through the sensor hole. I had mine changed by the dealer and almost immediately, and for the first time ever, it began to seep around the seal on the drive side. Just had that replaced. I am still wondering if I needed to do that, if they just overfilled it, if the seepage would have stopped when it got down to 180ml, etc. Guess I'll never really know.

Seeping is pretty common. You need to put some light grease around the o ring and be sure that the sensor is firmly and squarely back in it's hole, otherwise it will weep oil right onto the rear rotor, thus fouling the rear brake pads. DAHIK :(

henzilla
06-04-2009, 10:39 PM
Seeping is pretty common. You need to put some light grease around the o ring and be sure that the sensor is firmly and squarely back in it's hole, otherwise it will weep oil right onto the rear rotor, thus fouling the rear brake pads. DAHIK :(

Hugh's was seeping from the outer seal...

but you are correct on the o-ring on the speed sensor...make sure it goes back on the sensor or you WILL have a leak!

greenwald
06-05-2009, 01:06 PM
It's that plug facing rear on final drive. The drive is disconnected from the paralever link and flopped down 90 degrees so the plug is at the bottom for draining.


18011

THANKS!

Wallowa
06-05-2009, 07:54 PM
This was kicked around on the Adv Forum GSpot a lot....questions concerns the why go to 180 ml from the previous BMW DVD maintenance recommendation of refill to 220 ml [for my '07 GSA]....

Does anyone have factual information from BMW as to what exactly they trying to accomplish with this 40 ml or 18% less lube in the FD? I tire of endless speculation about BMW intentions but with zero definitive explanations.

As to the 9 o'clock drains on a GS draining to 180 ml...after draining the FD, dropped down, and then buttoning it back up in place [while on centerstand]...if you then fill through the drain hole, 180 ml will go into the FD before it starts to run out...sooooo, you do not have to fill through the damn sensor hole, dribbling it past the gears...either way, 180 ml into drain hole, then last 40 ml through sensor hole or just stick with 180 ml...

By the way, since BMW has not contacted owners [gee, that is a first!] about the "new and improved" amount of lube to use in the FD...and since my BMW DVD specs calls for 220 ml...I assume my warranty is still valid with 220 ml of lube in FD?

Oh yes, remember that many failed FDs did not have seal failures.

The_Veg
06-05-2009, 11:06 PM
Does anyone have factual information from BMW as to what exactly they trying to accomplish with this 40 ml or 18% less lube in the FD? I tire of endless speculation about BMW intentions but with zero definitive explanations.

BMW never explain ANYTHING. "Ze bike ist perfekt, und next veek it vill be MORE perfekt!"


By the way, since BMW has not contacted owners [gee, that is a first!] about the "new and improved" amount of lube to use in the FD...and since my BMW DVD specs calls for 220 ml...I assume my warranty is still valid with 220 ml of lube in FD?

Surely you must be joking! If you do not depend on your dealer to hold your hand and take care of every last detail, then BMW says "Shame on you, shame on you TWO times!"







The preceeding is of course sarcasm. I agree that BMW could do a better job with this stuff.

Wallowa
06-05-2009, 11:32 PM
BMW never explain ANYTHING. "Ze bike ist perfekt, und next veek it vill be MORE perfekt!"
Surely you must be joking! If you do not depend on your dealer to hold your hand and take care of every last detail, then BMW says "Shame on you, shame on you TWO times!"

The preceeding is of course sarcasm. I agree that BMW could do a better job with this stuff.



Yup...I don't count on my BMW dealer, BMW NA or BMW Motorrad for anything approaching honest or informative information...in short I don't trust them any further than I can throw my GSA.:bluduh

Sure love riding my bike! And it is up to me to keep it running.

markgoodrich
06-06-2009, 12:40 AM
Not really. The drain plug - assuming you're talking pre-2009 bikes where the plug is at 9PM roughly - will be in a different position depending on the bike in question. A GS will have the plug slightly different than an RT resulting in a different level, or not being able to get the 180ml in...

It's not a reliable measurement. It really isn't all that hard to remove the speed sensor to fill it as the instructions recommend, and that's what I'd recommend.

Agreed, however, why not use the drain hole to add as much of the fluid as possible? Much easier and quicker than the itty sensor hole, then if there's any left if you hit the bottom of the drain hole, you can put the balance through the sensor hole. I use a graduated bottle with a long "nipple" on it, from a beauty supply store. Takes just a minute to pump up to the drain hole, then there's just a little left...and with the "new" smaller amount, perhaps no need to use the sensor hole at all.

Polarbear
06-06-2009, 01:01 AM
HERE is a very simple solution if so; Simply use a measured cc cup, take out the drain plug and let 30-40 cc dribble out and shut her back up:). I just did this to my GSA, because I had just changed the FD fluid about 4000 miles ago, with 230cc. Now I should be at the 180-190 level:). This is a very quick, 10 minute or less thing to do. I think BMW still recommends only ONE change of the FD oil at the bikes first service, Yes? Its a no service FD, after that. I have done my FD oil, 4 or 5 times now at 33000 on the GSA'07. I'm a home service guy:). No issues with the FD to date, except with BMW not having a clue? Randy:thumb :usa

henzilla
06-06-2009, 02:37 AM
Agreed, however, why not use the drain hole to add as much of the fluid as possible? Much easier and quicker than the itty sensor hole, then if there's any left if you hit the bottom of the drain hole, you can put the balance through the sensor hole. I use a graduated bottle with a long "nipple" on it, from a beauty supply store. Takes just a minute to pump up to the drain hole, then there's just a little left...and with the "new" smaller amount, perhaps no need to use the sensor hole at all.

I have a HoppyFunnel from either Wallymart or the local auto supply(AutoZone) that has a long tube and plastic tip that fits nicely in the sensor hole. I tie the funnel up to the frame and pour away from my glass measuring cup. I do leave the drainplug loose to allow air to escape and the lube to flow...just close it off right ahead of it dripping ( with old level) However, the newer bikes with the bottom plug also have a 14mm( I think) removable hex plug with a copper washer on the backside of the FD near that speed sensor...it is smaller than the speed sensor and my setup will not fit on those. It really isn't a pain to remove the sensor and clean the fuzz from it anyways though. And the speed sensor hole is much larger than the drainplug anyways...didn't consider it to be itty-bitty:dunno

Wallowa
06-06-2009, 02:52 AM
I have a HoppyFunnel from either Wallymart or the local auto supply(AutoZone) that has a long tube and plastic tip that fits nicely in the sensor hole. I tie the funnel up to the frame and pour away from my glass measuring cup. I do leave the drainplug loose to allow air to escape and the lube to flow...just close it off right ahead of it dripping ( with old level) However, the newer bikes with the bottom plug also have a 14mm( I think) removable hex plug with a copper washer on the backside of the FD near that speed sensor...it is smaller than the speed sensor and my setup will not fit on those. It really isn't a pain to remove the sensor and clean the fuzz from it anyways though. And the speed sensor hole is much larger than the drainplug anyways...didn't consider it to be itty-bitty:dunno

Yes many of us used that set-up...the size of the sensor hole is not what causes the painfully slow and often spilled filling through that hole..the large gear blocking the hole [what sensor measures] doesn't allow but a tiny, tiny drip of oil before it flows back out..


Yes the FDs were "sealed for life"; "then only changed at 600 miles" and NOW ever 12,000 miles...see bulletin...sure, BMW has a firm grip on the issue of failing FDs....reminds me of the 5 versions of antenna rings prior to the -247...folks we are the R&D field testers, except we are never told of the results!

Mushrooms, we are mushrooms to BMW.

henzilla
06-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Yes many of us used that set-up...the size of the sensor hole is not what causes the painfully slow and often spilled filling through that hole..the large gear blocking the hole [what sensor measures] doesn't allow but a tiny, tiny drip of oil before it flows back out.

I thought the hole was blocked by the pinion gear also, but after I vented the FD by leaving the drainplug loose, the lube flows like ...well ...lube easily and quickly. That HoppyFunnels plastic tip is a snug fit into the sensor hole. Only get the residue drip as I remove the funnel. YRMV, but it works very well for me.

BTW, I have a spare EWS ring in my "emergency kit" to ward off any failures!:laugh :laugh :laugh :doh

swall
06-06-2009, 06:42 PM
My dealer told me there was no 20K service required for the final drive oil. That was only 3 weeks ago when I had the R1200R in for the EWS campaign and a computer update.

marchyman
06-06-2009, 08:07 PM
Your dealer might have been correct 3 weeks ago, especially if he is slow to read his mail! :whistle

Wallowa
06-06-2009, 10:31 PM
My dealer told me there was no 20K service required for the final drive oil. That was only 3 weeks ago when I had the R1200R in for the EWS campaign and a computer update.


"For point 2: Regular oil change in rear-wheel drive:
At 600 mi.
every 12,000 mi or every 2 years
(This service interval is all ready in place) "


So technically your dealer did not lie to you...sorta! 600 miles, every 12k or two years..but stay tuned I heard a rumor we were going to 236ml and a change every leap year..

Hey Henzilla,

Good idea on loosening drain plug before filling through sensor hole...will give it a try...I am sticking with 220ml until a reason is given for dropping to 180ml..plus I use Redline Heavy Shockproof in FD and trans...and I to have a spare -247 in my road kit...never got mine changed out [having a -247 put in by BMW], prefer doing it if needed rather than letting the dealer mechanics rip into my bike unless absolutely necessary!

SteveTech
06-11-2009, 03:46 AM
Just changed my final drive oil and thought I would do an experiment.
180ml is about 3/16 inch below the "drain plug" hole on my 06 RT with the bike on the center stand, the hole being at 9.00 o'clock of course.
I used a bent plastic tie as a dipstick due to the gear being somewhat in the way but it is still possible to fill it from here.

swall
06-11-2009, 10:45 PM
Well, it certainly does no harm to change it. I had picked up a qt of the BMW lube while I was at the dealer to be ready to do it.

Wallowa
06-26-2009, 06:02 PM
Well, it certainly does no harm to change it. I had picked up a qt of the BMW lube while I was at the dealer to be ready to do it.


What FD lube did they sell you? Again many dealers, mine for one, put in
BMW 75w140 and not the often mentioned, specd, BMW 75w90....

What oils/lube an individual uses is highly dependent on the individual ;)

leadfoot
09-11-2009, 04:53 PM
For those of you who had other than the new level of 180ML in their FD......I had just changed my FD fluid to the spec level in the manual when the new level was announced. I opted to just wait another 6K and change it at the next service. After returning from an 1800 mile trip, today while washing the bike I noticed seepage in the right side seal area. It was not dripping, just damp. So today I will re-service the FD to the new level and hope the dampness was just a byproduct of overpressurization or leakage due to the higher fluid level. Intent is to monitor the FD until I am convinced this was the situation. If anyone has any advice or wants to put their 2 cents in, I am eager to hear it........

This may not be the same outcome for others that opted to wait or continue using their current level, but it might be something you need to consider when doing so.

Jim

cookie
09-11-2009, 07:12 PM
When I drained my f/d and saw the little puddle of used oil I just couldn't do it. I put 200ml back in my 08RT. I now have the best of both worlds, I can sleep at night and I have provided a little more expansion room. Is there no vent at all?
I also greased the splines, there was an article a few weeks ago with a photo of very little grease from the factory. Mine had plenty of grease so I cleaned and reapplied.:whistle
Jeff

tbryant
09-17-2009, 05:09 AM
Those of us who have the early style FD (06 RT, etc..) I think it's still a good idea to service thru the sensor hole due to the fact that the sensor collects a "beard" of debris and needs to be cleaned. For that stuff to break loose could be damaging.

my 2 pennies

Terry

kbasa
09-20-2009, 04:20 AM
The only thing that is sometimes an issue is the recoupling of the drive shaft to the rear drive.

It is an alignment issue - if you prealign it helps alot and pops in.

After a few times you get the feel of it.

The first time i did it it took a few trys and can now do it on the first try about 90% of the time.

Other than that take your time and it is straight forward. :thumb

Luis

I just give the driven flange a little twirl until the splines align and it pops right on.