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jaherbst
03-04-2009, 03:09 AM
So, took my R1200RT (2008) in to get the 6000 mile service and total bill was $440. Was told brake fluid and some other fluid needed to be changed yearly. Was charged extra. I thought it was a little high. What do you think?

They did not use BMW oil and put in bulk castrol. I questioned them about using other than BMW for warranty. This is a BMW dealer. Whats your thoughts?

Jack

AZ-J
03-04-2009, 03:55 AM
Jack, I was told the 6K mile for my R1200S was going to be North of 400 because the R bikes need their valves adjusted every 6K. I'd expect oil to be included in that, but not brake service.

rglassma
03-04-2009, 04:15 AM
Please review the link below. The '08 only needs valve adjustments every 12K.

http://www.bmwxplor.com/forums/topic/show/2014

Not sure about the first brake fluid change, but I believe it is only necessary every 2 years...

dorongrudo
03-04-2009, 04:27 AM
Just paid $540 for a 24k service. Took 5.3 hours. Oil used was BMW syn.

AZ-J
03-04-2009, 04:45 AM
Please review the link below. The '08 only needs valve adjustments every 12K.

http://www.bmwxplor.com/forums/topic/show/2014

Not sure about the first brake fluid change, but I believe it is only necessary every 2 years...

Poppycock for my 2007 S: R1200S_6K+ANNUAL.pdf (http://www.ascycles.com/pdf/ServiceSchedules/R1200S_6K+ANNUAL.pdf)

The RT is every 6K too (10K km): R1200RT_6K+ANNUAL.pdf (http://www.ascycles.com/pdf/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT_6K+ANNUAL.pdf)

All of the schedules here: bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules (http://www.ascycles.com/bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules.a spx)

PlaneGeek
03-04-2009, 08:11 PM
Poppycock for my 2007 S: R1200S_6K+ANNUAL.pdf (http://www.ascycles.com/pdf/ServiceSchedules/R1200S_6K+ANNUAL.pdf)

The RT is every 6K too (10K km): R1200RT_6K+ANNUAL.pdf (http://www.ascycles.com/pdf/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT_6K+ANNUAL.pdf)

All of the schedules here: bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules (http://www.ascycles.com/bmw_motorcycle_service_and_maintenance_schedules.a spx)

Actually, you need to read your own evidence for the RT: "initially at 10,000 km, then every 20,000 km." So yes, it is initally at 6K, after that it is every 12K (so the next time will be at 18K). :wave :love

Jack, I recommend doing your own maintenance. I feel like I know my bike inside and out now. It's really easy and a lot of fun. Not to mention the $$$$ you save :thumb. There is a lot of great data out there plus a ton of MOA members willing to help.

cookie
03-04-2009, 08:24 PM
I think you got taken. My 08 RT 6K service was $175. They did all the scheduled maintenance as laid out in the guide, I watched them do it. If you are ever in northern California you can't get better service than Ozzies in Chico.

marcopolo
03-05-2009, 01:13 AM
Doesn't matter what brand of oil you use as long as it meets the requirements called for in your owners manual. BMW does not make oil in any event, but BMW USA markets BMW-branded oil to its U.S. dealers. There is no requirement whatsoever to use so-called BMW oil (just read the manual). In most countries where BMW sells bikes there is no such thing as BMW oil. In fact, if you look at the cover of your owners manual it will say that BMW recommends Castrol (again, that's not a requirement).

As for brake fluid, the intervals are time based, not mileage based. For newer bikes, like yours, with steel-braided brake lines, it's two years for the wheel circuits and four years for the control circuit. As someone else pointed out, you should read, and be familiar with, the most up-to-date maintenance schedules. That's what your dealer should be using, but I'd say it's up to you to know what the schedules call for. I'd definitely ask what the rationale was for a brake flush, that is unless your bike was two years old.

jaherbst
03-05-2009, 01:37 AM
Thanks all that replied. A lot of good advice was given. After talking with my dealer again this morning and going line item by line item I see that a lot was done that did not need to be done. All fluids were changed-gearbox-finaldrive-crankcase- and brake fluid both front and rear without consulting me. Not all these are neccessary at 6400 miles.

I was charged for 4 1/2 hrs labor plus parts. The bike was in the shop for exactly 4 1/2 hrs. Funny thing was a keyring recall was also installed during this period which is .7 hrs allowed by BMW. The dealer charged BMW for .7 hours to install this and also charged me for the same time. In otherwords he was double dipping at my expense. He would not deduct .7 hrs from the bill.

The moral to the story if there is one is not to be so trusting when you drop your bike off for maintenence. Ask questions and instruct them not to do anything that is not called for. They will be trying to make as much money off you as they can in this poor financial atmosphere.

Jack in Tucson/Oro Valley

leadfoot
03-05-2009, 02:59 AM
I think you either need to find a new dealer or business to perform your service....or just do it yourself. It is very simple, as long as you do not over complicate things. There is a lot of very good info on this site, and some even better folks that will happy to give you some very good advice. The bottom line is that you can learn, do it to your satisfaction, save money, and become better aquainted with you bike.

Jim

LOSTBOY
03-05-2009, 04:02 AM
I'd suggest speaking first to the service manager, then the dealer principal about this. I'd offer to have them credit you for the time and fluids and that you be allowed to use the credits at the major service.

I was a dealer technician for many years, at several shops. Had I done such a thing, my knuckles would have been rapped.

marchyman
03-05-2009, 05:00 AM
Actually, you need to read your own evidence for the RT: "initially at 10,000 km, then every 20,000 km." So yes, it is initally at 6K, after that it is every 12K (so the next time will be at 18K). :wave :love

Uhhh, you've got it wrong. You've got to read ALL of the maint schedules to get the full picture. There are several different versions. Ignoring the annual versions you've got:


run in check done at 1000 km / 600 miles
BMW service done at 10,000 km / 6000 miles and then every 20,000 km / 12,000 miles.
BMW inspection done every 20,000 km / 12,000 miles.


When you put those together you have
600 mile run in
6000 mile service
12000 mile inspection
18000 mile service
24000 mile inspection
etc.

Something is scheduled every 6000 miles (10,000 km). Change engine oil and check, adjust valves if necessary are part of both the service and the inspection. That is true for bikes at least up to 2007. I don't know if BMW has changed anything since then.

// marc

akbeemer
03-05-2009, 06:20 AM
They charged you too much. Mine was less than $200; BMW oil; added final drive oil change; done by the BMW checklist in a town where a burger is $8.00.

RSPENNACHIO
03-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Was this a BMW dealer? Besides all of the information posted about service and inspections the owners manual mostly details this stuff. I think your dealer jammed you :deal

My 600 mile check up cost about $300.00. They change the oil in the crank case and final drive. They adjusted the valves and checked what ever else they check. (I am confident that they did what they needed to do and no more)

On 02-03-09 I picked up my 07 RT for the 6000 mile thing. Again, I was confident that they would do only what they need to do.

They adjusted the valves. They found my throttle cables out of sync. and corrected that. They also replaced the key ring (as they told me it was on a service bullitin and there would be no charge). They did what ever else they do and provided checklist. I looked it over and was again confident that they did the right thing. I changed my own oil and filter prior to dropping it off. My total charge including service, tax and shop fees was $157.00

RSPENNACHIO
03-05-2009, 05:40 PM
When I dropped it off I asked the service writer to have the tech verify the rear tire tread. The bike was a little late for the service and it has 7029 miles. When I picked it up they said we didn't even call you about the tire because we think you've got a couple of thousand miles left on it. If they wanted to soak me for a new tire they could have. I intiated concern over wear so this could have been an easy sale needed or not.

There are two dealers in the detroit area both are straight shooters. There is a third one in Grand Rapids but I have not met them yet so I can't give them a free plug yet but I have not heard anything bad about them. I think I am pretty lucky to have this many resources. Two within 25 miles and the third 100 miles away.

108625
03-05-2009, 06:28 PM
There are two dealers in the detroit area both are straight shooters. There is a third one in Grand Rapids but I have not met them yet so I can't give them a free plug yet but I have not heard anything bad about them. I think I am pretty lucky to have this many resources. Two within 25 miles and the third 100 miles away.

That can make all the difference... We have one in the whole state, a six hour round trip, not including the actual time spent there. The nearest after that would be in Idaho. I do as much of my own maintenance as I can.

I'm reminded of the telephone guy in WKRP in Cincinnati responding to Jennifer's complaint about service: "that's simple, we have no competition".

jaherbst
03-06-2009, 12:56 AM
I'd suggest speaking first to the service manager, then the dealer principal about this. I'd offer to have them credit you for the time and fluids and that you be allowed to use the credits at the major service.

I was a dealer technician for many years, at several shops. Had I done such a thing, my knuckles would have been rapped.

I spoke directly with the owner and the service manager to no avail!

Jack

PGlaves
03-06-2009, 01:40 AM
I spoke directly with the owner and the service manager to no avail!

Jack


First - lets be clear what the complaint is. It seems to me you paid the right price for the service work performed, but they did service work not requested and not on the service schedule.

So, now complain to the BMW Regional Service rep. He won't intervene is one individual case but if they get several such complaints about the same dealership somebody is going to get some "counseling." Might not help you this time - but may help you and others later.

Then there is always the local Better Business Bureau and (depending on your state) the Consumer Protection Division of the Attorney General's Office. Letters to these folks at least make them alert, and sometimes do wonders in getting the owner's attention.

jaherbst
03-06-2009, 03:39 AM
Paul, I like the idea of contacting the regional service rep. I would assume I can find one through BMWNA.

I was upset because 1. They performed work that is not required for the mileage. 20,000 and 40,000 km work for 10,000km check and oil change without my knowledge or approval. I was at the dealership for the entire time. They could have asked. I of course would not have approved it unless required by BMW guidelines.

2. Mechanic worked on bike (2008 R1200RT) for 4 1/2 hrs. I was charged for 4 1/2 hrs. During this period a recall of the keyring was performed. BMW allows and pays dealer .7 hrs to install. The least they could have done was to subtract this amount from my hourly charge. Instead I paid $81.00 per hr for this and BMW pays $81.00 per hr for this. I think it is called double dipping!

I was not only screwed on this but the service they supposedly performed which was not required and not approved by me.

I did discuss this with the owner and he said it was their normal policy. We only have one dealer here in Tucson and I would warn anyone doing future business with them to be ware.

Thanks Paul,
Jack

AZ-J
03-06-2009, 05:24 AM
Iron Horse did this? I am stunned. Wait until this spreads among the AZBeemers and the AZ Rim Riders.

flars
03-06-2009, 12:41 PM
"Mechanic worked on bike (2008 R1200RT) for 4 1/2 hrs. I was charged for 4 1/2 hrs. During this period a recall of the keyring was performed. BMW allows and pays dealer .7 hrs to install..."
Clock hours do not have anything to do with shop hours. If the book says an oil change is 4 hours labor, but it actually only takes 2 and a half minutes, you will pay for 4 hours labor. Some invoices show shop hours for each item, some don't, so unless your invoice shows the shop hours charged for each item, I don't think you can say they were 'double dipping'. I have been to shops that say 'the 6k service is 4.5 hours', and don't break out the actual hours for each item.
If I were you I would just keep the receipt, maybe put it up on the wall in the garage, and learn how to do the next service myself at a tech day. You are going to give yourself a headache worrying about something you cannot change at this point.

PlaneGeek
03-06-2009, 02:41 PM
Uhhh, you've got it wrong. You've got to read ALL of the maint schedules to get the full picture. There are several different versions. Ignoring the annual versions you've got:


run in check done at 1000 km / 600 miles
BMW service done at 10,000 km / 6000 miles and then every 20,000 km / 12,000 miles.
BMW inspection done every 20,000 km / 12,000 miles.


When you put those together you have
600 mile run in
6000 mile service
12000 mile inspection
18000 mile service
24000 mile inspection
etc.

Something is scheduled every 6000 miles (10,000 km). Change engine oil and check, adjust valves if necessary are part of both the service and the inspection. That is true for bikes at least up to 2007. I don't know if BMW has changed anything since then.

// marc

Checking my Haynes is states "After the initial 6K and every 12K there after." Then at the 12K mark you add changing the air filter & bleed test the ABS. At 24K You add changing the spark plug change & changing the gear box oil. And finally at 36K you change the alternator drive belt. And the quote I had in my original post was directly from the BMW service documents. I see two sources supporting this.:usa :german

108625
03-06-2009, 03:02 PM
"Mechanic worked on bike (2008 R1200RT) for 4 1/2 hrs. I was charged for 4 1/2 hrs. During this period a recall of the keyring was performed. BMW allows and pays dealer .7 hrs to install..."
Clock hours do not have anything to do with shop hours. If the book says an oil change is 4 hours labor, but it actually only takes 2 and a half minutes, you will pay for 4 hours labor. Some invoices show shop hours for each item, some don't, so unless your invoice shows the shop hours charged for each item, I don't think you can say they were 'double dipping'. I have been to shops that say 'the 6k service is 4.5 hours', and don't break out the actual hours for each item.
If I were you I would just keep the receipt, maybe put it up on the wall in the garage, and learn how to do the next service myself at a tech day. You are going to give yourself a headache worrying about something you cannot change at this point.

Very, very true, depending on if they're payed by flat rate. Another factor is that; often the mechanic with the most seniority (not to be confused with the most experience) often gets first pick of the work and can take all the "gravy" jobs (those that specify XX number of hours but can be accomplished in less time), while the "FNG" mechanic (who may be more qualified, but junior) gets stuck with the jobs that generally take as long as, or longer than, the service manual specifies.
Many customers getting routine service work will be billed for the hours specified as neccesary, and their bike will be in the service department that long. The reality is though, that several bikes may pass through that service department that day for the same routine service, and they will all be charged XX hours; even if the same mechanic serviced them all in an eight hour day and the total number of hours billed out to customers adds up to more than eight...Or the totals will match, but the bike sat there between tasks while the mechanic worked on or assisted with another project, cleaned the shop, or just enjoyed some coffee and B.S.

jaherbst
03-06-2009, 03:07 PM
"Mechanic worked on bike (2008 R1200RT) for 4 1/2 hrs. I was charged for 4 1/2 hrs. During this period a recall of the keyring was performed. BMW allows and pays dealer .7 hrs to install..."
Clock hours do not have anything to do with shop hours. If the book says an oil change is 4 hours labor, but it actually only takes 2 and a half minutes, you will pay for 4 hours labor. Some invoices show shop hours for each item, some don't, so unless your invoice shows the shop hours charged for each item, I don't think you can say they were 'double dipping'. I have been to shops that say 'the 6k service is 4.5 hours', and don't break out the actual hours for each item.
If I were you I would just keep the receipt, maybe put it up on the wall in the garage, and learn how to do the next service myself at a tech day. You are going to give yourself a headache worrying about something you cannot change at this point.

Anyway you look at it they are getting paid twice for the same time. Once from me and once from BMW. I will never get a warranty item done at the same time I am getting service done. It is unethical to charge twice for the same period of time block. I am considering taking my service to Phoenix for both my BMW's (New). They are 100 and 135 miles from my home or doing whatever I can. I am beginning to understand why so many BMW owners do their own service.


Jack

jaherbst
03-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Very, very true, depending on if they're payed by flat rate. Another factor is that; often the mechanic with the most seniority (not to be confused with the most experience) often gets first pick of the work and can take all the "gravy" jobs (those that specify XX number of hours but can be accomplished in less time), while the "FNG" mechanic (who may be more qualified, but junior) gets stuck with the jobs that generally take as long as, or longer than, the service manual specifies.
Many customers getting routine service work will be billed for the hours specified as neccesary, and their bike will be in the service department that long. The reality is though, that several bikes may pass through that service department that day for the same routine service, and they will all be charged XX hours; even if the same mechanic serviced them all in an eight hour day and the total number of hours billed out to customers adds up to more than eight...Or the totals will match, but the bike sat there between tasks while the mechanic worked on or assisted with another project, cleaned the shop, or just enjoyed some coffee and B.S.

Is this ethical? I do understand how the system works but when warranty work is performed during this book time that you are paying for should he get paid twice performing warranty work during the same time you are paying him?

Tucson dealer/owner told me that only three out of ten jobs require the book time allowed but you still pay for the allowed time. If this is so BOOK TIMES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED TO REFLECT REALITY!!! Which means two thirds of us are all being overcharged.

Jack

jaherbst
03-06-2009, 03:31 PM
Iron Horse did this? I am stunned. Wait until this spreads among the AZBeemers and the AZ Rim Riders.

Sad but true.

Jack

R1Zst
03-06-2009, 08:26 PM
So, took my R1200RT (2008) in to get the 6000 mile service and total bill was $440. Was told brake fluid and some other fluid needed to be changed yearly. Was charged extra. I thought it was a little high. What do you think?

They did not use BMW oil and put in bulk castrol. I questioned them about using other than BMW for warranty. This is a BMW dealer. Whats your thoughts?

Jack

First, brake fluid would make a great article in Owners News. I'm not going to preach but one thing you should know is that brake fluid is a sponge for absorbing moisture. You should read up more about it. Unfortunately it is not recommended in the 6,000 mile service yet. Its probably good insurance that it was changed.

The shop should have explained that to you. And your consent is needed for any additional work.
As my master technician would say, "dont listen to the interweb".

marchyman
03-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Checking my Haynes is states "After the initial 6K and every 12K there after."


That is the schedule for the "service"



Then at the 12K mark...


If you do 6K and every 12K thereafter when how do you get to 12K? :ear 6 + 12 = 18.



At 24K You add changing the spark plug change & changing the gear box oil...


6+12+12 = 30K. You missed your 24k using your 6k + every 12K schedule.



And finally at 36K you change the alternator drive belt.


6+12+12+12 = 42K. You missed your 36k using your 6k + every 12K schedule.

There is a service done every 12K starting at 6k.
There is an inspection done every 12k starting at 12k.
When you put them together and look at the tasks you will see that you are changing oil and checking valves every 6K.

// marc

marcopolo
03-06-2009, 10:11 PM
First, brake fluid would make a great article in Owners News. I'm not going to preach but one thing you should know is that brake fluid is a sponge for absorbing moisture. You should read up more about it. Unfortunately it is not recommended in the 6,000 mile service yet. Its probably good insurance that it was changed.


Why would you do that when the bike's manufacturer recommends changing the fluid in the wheel circuits every two years (and in the control circuit every four years)? BMW changed its maintenance schedules relatively recently and doubled the intervals for brake fluid changes for the newer models with steel-braided brake lines. You somehow seem to be suggesting it would be a good thing if they (BMW) were to change their maintenance schedules once again and call for a brake fluid change at 6,000 miles. Am I misreading what you meant?

AZ-J
03-07-2009, 12:59 AM
Why would you do that when the bike's manufacturer recommends changing the fluid in the wheel circuits every two years (and in the control circuit every four years)? BMW changed its maintenance schedules relatively recently and doubled the intervals for brake fluid changes for the newer models with steel-braided brake lines. You somehow seem to be suggesting it would be a good thing if they (BMW) were to change their maintenance schedules once again and call for a brake fluid change at 6,000 miles. Am I misreading what you meant?

Brake fluid can be funny that way. If it is brown, it does not matter how old it is, it is bad. I've seen it go bad in 3 years, and in as little as 6 months, in different bikes I've owned in 35 years or so.

R1Zst
03-07-2009, 04:56 AM
Why would you do that when the bike's manufacturer recommends changing the fluid in the wheel circuits every two years (and in the control circuit every four years)? BMW changed its maintenance schedules relatively recently and doubled the intervals for brake fluid changes for the newer models with steel-braided brake lines. You somehow seem to be suggesting it would be a good thing if they (BMW) were to change their maintenance schedules once again and call for a brake fluid change at 6,000 miles. Am I misreading what you meant?

You are correct in the manufacturers recommendation.
The dealers recommendation is every year. You are not obligated to follow the dealers recommendation. If you get it done it is extra and added on top of your regular maintenance. And heres the reason why (I told you I didnt want to preach):

"Brake fluid is probably more susceptible to contamination than any of the vehicles vital fluid; a fact which makes attention to the fluid even more critical. DOT 3 and DOT 4 are "hygroscopic", meaning they absorb water. So great is their tendency to absorb water, in fact, that leaving the lid off of a can of fresh brake fluid can cause excessive moisture pick up overnight.. Moisture can enter the system when the master cylinder cap is removed to check the fluid thats why most master cylinder are transparent so levels can be checked without opening. Water boils at a lower temp (212'F) than brake fluid, it causes the boiling point of brake fluid to drop. This leads to fluid boil and brake fade during hard use. Moisture contamination also contributes to internal corrosion in the calipers, wheel cylinders and steel brake lines. The regular replacement of contaminated brake fluid restores fluid heat and corrosion resistance."

marcopolo
03-07-2009, 02:27 PM
You are correct in the manufacturers recommendation.
The dealers recommendation is every year. You are not obligated to follow the dealers recommendation. If you get it done it is extra and added on top of your regular maintenance. And heres the reason why (I told you I didnt want to preach):

"Brake fluid is probably more susceptible to contamination than any of the vehicles vital fluid; a fact which makes attention to the fluid even more critical. DOT 3 and DOT 4 are "hygroscopic", meaning they absorb water. So great is their tendency to absorb water, in fact, that leaving the lid off of a can of fresh brake fluid can cause excessive moisture pick up overnight.. Moisture can enter the system when the master cylinder cap is removed to check the fluid thats why most master cylinder are transparent so levels can be checked without opening. Water boils at a lower temp (212'F) than brake fluid, it causes the boiling point of brake fluid to drop. This leads to fluid boil and brake fade during hard use. Moisture contamination also contributes to internal corrosion in the calipers, wheel cylinders and steel brake lines. The regular replacement of contaminated brake fluid restores fluid heat and corrosion resistance."

I'm quite familiar with all that, but I suspect the only reason the dealer did a brake flush after one year was for $$. I take my R12RT to an independent BMW master tech. He's the one who alerted me to the changed BMW maintenance schedules for brake flushes. I'll stick with those, but everyone has to do what they're comfortable with. That said, I also change my FD fluid even though BMW does not call for it (other than at the running-in check).

jaherbst
03-09-2009, 01:11 AM
Thanks everyone for all your helpful input. It was obvious all the extra fluid changes were unneccassary and not BMW required maintenance. All dealers now are hurting and maintenance is where most of their money is made. Please be aware of this next time you take your bike in for service.

I have also learned that BMW is no longer making available the Maintenance manuals (DVD's) for at least the R1200RT and the new F650GS Twin. I believe this is true for all BMW's now. Some are still left over at a few dealers. If anyone has these I would like to purchase them. PM me. I am assuming BMW is trying to force us to use our local dealers and stop us from doing our own service in these trying times ahead.

After yet a third meeting with the Tucson dealer/owner and service manager they have allowed me a $50 credit for my next service due to changing fluids that were not required and that I did not authorize.

No adjustment was made for the .75 hrs for the recall work done during my 6000 mile 4.5hr flat rate service charge. So .75 hrs were paid by me and BMW will also pay them .75 hrs for key ring recall. This service was performed during my 4.5 hr flat rate service charge. I was present at the dealer for the entire time. (9:00--1:30) I was still charged for the full 4.5 hrs. The keyring recall was done during and inclusive of the 4.5 hrs I was charged. In the .75 hr time period to install the keyring they made $121.50 for 45 minutes of charging us both! I still find this to be highly unethical. Dealer claims this is his standard practice and that other dealers do the same thing ????????