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76990
04-23-2003, 12:53 PM
I posed this question on a K1100 Owners page and got mixed feedback so I thought I would bring it here. I have a '93K1100LT approaching it's 48,000 mile service. I am plan on having the spline lubed but am hearing some folks say this is not necessary. Any comments on the subect would be appreciated.

Quick history of the bike: bought it about two years ago with just over 12,000. Has been dealer maintained, receiving the recommended major service every 12,000 mile interval. I do not know if the bike has had a spline lube before.

jdiaz
04-23-2003, 01:14 PM
Personally, I'm fond of overservicing......and my checking acct reflects it. :) If you plan on keeping the bike tho, then of course its money well spent.

Does it need a spline lube? Probably not until downshifting becomes difficult. That seems to be the telltale.

My only recommendation if you decide to do this work, or have it done by someone else, is to make sure you do as much work as possible while the bike is apart.....ie, clean the starter out, check the alternator rubbers, replace the swingarm and Paralever bearings, etc. The small amount of extra money spent now will save you lots of time and extra money later.

76990
04-23-2003, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the input Jon. I am not having any trouble downshifting, so I don't know if this service is really necessary. However, I am a bit paranoid of ignoring this service based on other accounts I have read about major problems resulting from neglecting this. I'm planning a 6000 mile roundtrip from VA out west this summer and would like to avoid any mechanical problems if possible. I guess sometimes that extra $ spent is worth the peace of mind even.

kbasa
04-23-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by KAW
I guess sometimes that extra $ spent is worth the peace of mind even.

It'll be one less thing to destroy your happy thoughts while you're tooling across the plains.

:)

dave

basketcase
04-28-2003, 01:59 AM
I, too, am inclinded to err towards caution, and have been known to over-service my motorcycle.

The way I figure it, by the time I weigh the cost of a tow-in, parts, labor, and other matters resulting from a breakdown, I am dollars ahead to have the service done, particularly if I can squeeze it in with other items and save $$ in the larger scheme of things.

FWIW, I once bought a new K75, and was told, "Don't worry about it until it is hard to shift." Well, I decided to have the splines checked at the 18 k service. They were nearly dry, and undamaged. But another 6k might have been the difference that put the shafts "over the edge."

Thinking a bit about your comments, if you have not had the splines done since purchase, this might be the right time to lay it to rest -- then you know for sure what the status is on them.

My $0.02

96073
04-30-2003, 05:15 PM
could anyone share their experience of lubing the splines? that is something that may be looming over the next year of riding and want to be prepared to do the deed.

repoe3

kbasa
04-30-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by repoe3
could anyone share their experience of lubing the splines? that is something that may be looming over the next year of riding and want to be prepared to do the deed.

repoe3

YOu'll need a garage and a decent tool set, but not much of it is actually difficult. I used a trans jack to pull the tranny out, which made it much easier. I also recommend that you use the Honda Moly60 stuff. It seems to last forever.

I think there's a decent "How To" over at the IBMWR's tech articles.

basketcase
05-01-2003, 03:04 AM
I have not done this, but I observed a trick done by a capable wrench. This is a very, very abbreviated description.

1. Obtain some long allen head bolts of the diameter and thread count of the bolts that hold the transmission onto the engine.

Note: the goal here is to gain access to the splines without having to completely remove the rear half of the bike.

Next, you want to be able to give yourself an inch to an inch & a half to work in. If your bolts are too long, and the rear end drops off the shaft, you have defeated your purpose.

Also, it is absolutely critical that the diameter and thread count is right. Don't force something that does not fit, or the splines become the least of your worries.

2. Obtain a stubby, medium bristle brush with a long, skinny handle.

3. Jack up the bike.

4. Unbolt and remove the various components necessary to split the bike. When you get to the bolts holding the tranny on, as you remove them, replace them with one of the long bolts. Just hand tighten the long bolts into place.

5. Slide the transmission back far enough to get into the opening with the long, skinny brush.

6. Insert said skinny brush into opening, and dab that Honda moly lube on the splines, being careful not to sling and fling the excess.

7. Reassemble and torqe to specs.

Voi'la! Splines lubed in less than an hour!

DasBoot
05-18-2003, 07:07 PM
Kaw,


I would lube the shaft when you have your next rear wheel replacement. These are the splines that are present after removing the wheel and the drive shaft hub. The input shaft splines are behind the transmission and cost a lot more to have done and I would reccomend it to be done my a worthwhile mechanic. The 95 and on models have a nikisil coating on them from the factory, similiar to their engine coating process, that greatly decreases the wear on the parts.

deilenberger
05-30-2003, 04:41 AM
A few comments on this technique:

1. It does not remove the old grease - and this is contaminated and possibly not-compatible with the replacement grease. I want new uncontaminated grease on the splines - especially if BMW#10 was ever used on the bike.

2. You can't inspect the splines this way - you have to clean them up to inspect them, and I have to get very close (and usually feel for a step in the spline) to determine the wear.

3. You can damage the clutch assembly (DAMHIK) if things get misaligned doing it this way. Cost in parts to fix 3 years ago was about $400.

Just a warning or two - I consider this a not good shortcut. It is how some dealers can offer the off-season spline lube service so cheaply, but I consider it less than an optimal job.

It also doesn't save a lot of time. Most of what has to be removed to do a real spline lube has to be removed to do this half job. My record right now on a complete spline lube is about 90 minutes start to finish, but I was in practice at the time.

Take your time - do it right, consider it bonding with the bike.

Don


Originally posted by RickM
I have not done this, but I observed a trick done by a capable wrench. This is a very, very abbreviated description.

1. Obtain some long allen head bolts of the diameter and thread count of the bolts that hold the transmission onto the engine.

Note: the goal here is to gain access to the splines without having to completely remove the rear half of the bike.

Next, you want to be able to give yourself an inch to an inch & a half to work in. If your bolts are too long, and the rear end drops off the shaft, you have defeated your purpose.

Also, it is absolutely critical that the diameter and thread count is right. Don't force something that does not fit, or the splines become the least of your worries.

2. Obtain a stubby, medium bristle brush with a long, skinny handle.

3. Jack up the bike.

4. Unbolt and remove the various components necessary to split the bike. When you get to the bolts holding the tranny on, as you remove them, replace them with one of the long bolts. Just hand tighten the long bolts into place.

5. Slide the transmission back far enough to get into the opening with the long, skinny brush.

6. Insert said skinny brush into opening, and dab that Honda moly lube on the splines, being careful not to sling and fling the excess.

7. Reassemble and torqe to specs.

Voi'la! Splines lubed in less than an hour!

K75LT
06-04-2003, 03:39 PM
i have seen it go both ways - spline lube @ ~ 50k

splines dry gummy and dirty
splines still greasy and fine

similar riders similar bikes - who knows?

err on the side of caution and do it

go for the full deal and take it apart, clean the spline and hole with a toothbrush and carb cleaner! if you do it do it right.

i know riding season is here - i would put it off till the winter (depending on planned milage) good winter project when cabin fever sets in :)

76990
06-04-2003, 04:27 PM
The bike is in the shop as we speak receiving a 48k service and spline lube. I agree that it's better to go ahead and have something done rather than assume everything's alright. Especially with a week long trip coming up at the end of the month.

Your comments on being bikeless during the riding season - can't stand the thought which is why I own more than one. As a result, I drive a car that leaves a lot to be desired, but I'm not complaining.

105706
06-04-2003, 06:08 PM
No one has mentioned how much this cost to have the dealer do it..
I read somewhere to add it to my Maint Sched to do at 20,000 mile intervals.
Don't know how much a dealer would charge at this point though.

76990
06-09-2003, 02:53 PM
I just got my bike back over the weekend and the invoice shows $420 for lubing the clutch spline. I was feeling this was fairly steep, especially after reading postings here about people being able to perform this service in under two hours. However, I just read in the latest BMW ON that "Dancin' Dave" paid $750 for the same service, so now I don't feel so bad.
A few months ago when I called around to other dealers in my area to compare prices, the other two were around $500.

To those of you who are able to perform this same service in significantly less time, please pass on your technique to BMW mechanics or open your own shop to save the rest of us some cash!

dbrick
06-09-2003, 08:47 PM
There are several well-detailed articles on how to do it posted in the tech pages of the IBMWR site.

I did it four times in the nine years I had my K75S. The first time took all day. Each subsequent time was shorter, down to about four hours. I think Don E. did it faster, and holds the record.

jdiaz
06-09-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by dbrick
I did it four times in the nine years I had my K75S. The first time took all day. Each subsequent time was shorter, down to about four hours. I think Don E. did it faster, and holds the record.
I think Don E's record was set the time he didn't bother to align the clutch spline with the clutch plate. Maybe he can elaborate. :bliss

deilenberger
06-10-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by jdiaz
I think Don E's record was set the time he didn't bother to align the clutch spline with the clutch plate. Maybe he can elaborate. :bliss

Yes and no. It was done during the fixing of the time I didn't get the clutch splines aligned correctly trying to do it the shortcut way (without tranny removal..) Which is one of the reasons I don't recommend doing the shortcut.

After doing the R&R 3 times in 4 nights, I got pretty good at it, and I had a well trained assistant. We each took one side of the bike, had the right tools out and basically flew through the job. That was on a bike with ABS. Without ABS - figure we could have cut about 30 minutes off the time.

Tricks/hints that work:

1. Have a helper - makes it LOTS easier to R&R stuff. Find another K owner who wants to know how to do it - and swap jobs. When done with yours - you owe him to help do his.

2. Since you have a helper - don't take things apart that don't have to. I do take the rear-drive off, but I don't take ths swingarm or driveshaft off.

3. If you have ABS - don't disconnect anything. Removal of the ABS modulators leaves you having the bleed (not flush) the brakes. Even with a power-bleeder - this adds 30 minutes to the time required. Unbolt the ABS modulators and hang them from the frame with tie-wraps. Unbolt the rear caliper and hang it also. Unbolt the rear-master cylinder and hang it.

4. If you did #3 (and aside from the modulator, the process is identical on the non-ABS models) - you can remove the tranny with the footpeg mounts in place - which make very handy grab-handles on each side to move it around.

5. Mark any wires before disconnecting. My bikes always end up with numbered connectors (did every one on the new to me K75S when I replaced the wiring harness). Then you don't have to think about what goes to what. Just connect the dots (or numbers..)

6. Beg/steal/borrow a motorcycle lift like the dealer has. I have a good friend who runs a small shop - he considers it educational to help doing these jobs and he has several air-lifts. Working at arm level is a great advantage, and the big table under the bike helps to keep tools and parts handy. It also means the bike is secure (in most cases - make sure your tie-downs are good), and you can usually take the back wheel off without removing anything else.

7. Get containers for holding all the bits you take off. Segregate the bits into categories - like ALL brake bolts, ALL tranny bolts, etc. Helps on reassembly - less thinking involved (dunno about you, but thinking for me takes time.)

8. Have the right tools. I made a clutch alignment tool. You can do the job without it - but why bother? I'd be willing to bet that some VW tool would work just fine (same basic clutch) perhaps with some creative resizing of the pilot bushing part - which could be done in a drill press (I have access to a lathe). Have ball-end metric allen drivers - they're great for spinning the hard to get to bolts out or in. Use the regular 3/8" drive allen drivers to tighten them up or break them free.

Make yourself a set of transmission guide pins - 4 or 6 is good. Use bolts the same diameter and thread size as the stock bolts (any Home Depot has a supply of metric stuff - as do most auto-parts stores - take one out and take it with you), but about 1-1.5" longer. Cut the heads off and slot the stub end for a screwdriver. As you remove transmission bolts - screw in one of the guide bolts. They'll help guide it out and back in. This way you don't have to hold it up once you have it in position.

9. Proceed in order - ie - Remove sidepanels. Remove complete exhaust system (get new header gaskets - the copper ones, and I'd recommend new header nuts). Disconnect battery. Remove the starter. Remove FI computer. Remove document/FI computer box. Loosen the front mount for the rear fender (it lets the battery come out lots easier - removal isn't necessary). Remove battery. Mark and disconnect all wiring. Remove rear wheel and rear-drive. Hang brake parts up. Disconnect clutch cable. Remove the center/sidestand mount. Remove transmission. Assembly is the reverse. I might have forgotten one or two things (it's from memory not looking at the bike..) but you get the idea. Don't jump from one area to another, and remove anything that makes removing anything else easier first.

Once you get the hang of it - it's not rocket science, it's more like peeling an onion - with the core being the splines. Luckily - it's usually lots easier to put back together than an onion.

BTW - when at a dealer - buy a few spares of the rubber mounts for the document box. One WILL get lost if you don't have spares. That's a promise. They bounce REAL GOOD.. (DAMHIK.. I have about 6 spares now..)

The record - if I remember right was about 90 minutes - and that included replacing ALL the clutch components except the clutch basket (housing in BMW talk). When I did the K75S, I think I was a bit out of practice and it took just a bit over 2 hours (I also did do some lily-gilding - cleaning stuff, polishing things that don't need polishing - which added into the time).

HTH

Don

76990
07-02-2003, 05:59 PM
I failed to mention that the mechanic who worked on my bike said that while the spline was not dry, it had become "pastey". This indicates to me that I did the right thing by having this service done when I did (48,000 miles). So I guess as long as I keep riding the bike on a regular basis I won't need to worry about another lube until I have 96,000 on the odometer. I can live with that.

deilenberger
07-02-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by KAW
I failed to mention that the mechanic who worked on my bike said that while the spline was not dry, it had become "pastey". This indicates to me that I did the right thing by having this service done when I did (48,000 miles). So I guess as long as I keep riding the bike on a regular basis I won't need to worry about another lube until I have 96,000 on the odometer. I can live with that.

IF they used the Moly-60 lube - you can safely forget about it for a long time. If they used the BMW#10 lube - you're gonna be due for it WAY too soon..

BTW - did one last night for a friend. Started about 7:30, finished about 10:30.. some of the time was spent instructing, and some cleaning up parts. He rides all year - so lots of fasteners had been attacked by salt..

eric2
07-03-2003, 03:31 PM
Just as a data point here's a pic of grease on the clutch splines
of the clutch on an 85 k100rs with about 53k on the odo. The surface rust is the result of the motor sitting exposed in my garage for a year or two. Splines looked great (they are now in
Cary Stotlands K11LT)

I bought this bike with 20K on it and am pretty sure
the PO did not do a spline lube, and I didn't either.

deilenberger
07-03-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by nfgeezer
Just as a data point here's a pic of grease on the clutch splines
of the clutch on an 85 k100rs with about 53k on the odo. The surface rust is the result of the motor sitting exposed in my garage for a year or two. Splines looked great (they are now in
Cary Stotlands K11LT)

I bought this bike with 20K on it and am pretty sure
the PO did not do a spline lube, and I didn't either.

Question - this was what you saw when you opened it up?

If it was gray/white - it's the original factory grease.. Straburgs (or something like that spelling..)

K75Scape
07-14-2003, 06:08 PM
I bought my 1987 k75s new, the dealer has told me to have the splines lubed every year! I think that's rediculous. I also complained since week one about moisture in the gauges, they consistenly refused to do anything for me - now I have bubbled up gauge faces, and the low gas light has been constantly on for years.

deilenberger
07-15-2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by K75Scape
I bought my 1987 k75s new, the dealer has told me to have the splines lubed every year! I think that's rediculous. I also complained since week one about moisture in the gauges, they consistenly refused to do anything for me - now I have bubbled up gauge faces, and the low gas light has been constantly on for years.

OK - nice that you could vent.

And glad to see you're still enjoying the bike 16 years later despite your problems. My first thought after reading your message about the dealer refusing to help you was why didn't you contact another dealer or BMW-NA while the bike was under warranty?

IF you have more than 20k on the K75 and you never experienced a clutch spline failure and you switch to Honda Moly-60 lube - you can easily go 30k between lube intervals. If that's a years riding - good for'ya..

I think your dealer was trying to save you an on-road breakdown by being conservative in his spline lube interval - but using the old BMW lube (#10) he wasn't being awfully conservative.

As far as the moisture in the gauges - this can be fixed, but since you're well out of warranty - it might be worth your fixing it yourself.

You can find clues on how to do this on the Internet BMW Riders website. While doing it - you might do the contact enhancements inside the pod - which may fix your low gas light. I'm not gonna go into the how-to on these items since they are well known issues and well documented elsewhere.

Or you can take the light out and install a Fuel+ while you have the pod apart.

kbasa
07-15-2003, 12:48 PM
www.ibmwr.org

Check the Ktech articles and you should find what you need to get your gauges squared away.

171374
07-15-2003, 05:17 PM
I have a '99 K1200LT ......I'm thinking that this same thing needs done to the newer K's as well . Is the procedure pretty much the same as on the K1100's?(like listed on IBMWR's site) mine has about 67k on it and still shift real smooth , sounds like a good winter project? what do you guys think
thanks:dunno

deilenberger
07-15-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by zzkvsl
I have a '99 K1200LT ......I'm thinking that this same thing needs done to the newer K's as well . Is the procedure pretty much the same as on the K1100's?(like listed on IBMWR's site) mine has about 67k on it and still shift real smooth , sounds like a good winter project? what do you guys think
thanks:dunno

AFAIK... there is no regular spline lube interval service requirement for the newer K bikes. It appears BMW has gotten these right finally.

If it ain't broke..