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a1340vtwin
03-22-2004, 05:54 AM
Hi everyone,
IÔÇÖm a new member to the owners group.
IÔÇÖm also a new BMW owner.
I would like to say I have been riding for 32 years.
I am a member of the Blue Knights LEMC since 1994 NY 2.
I have been on the escort team for 5 years.
I feel and have been told IÔÇÖm an exceptional rider.
I have a problem and I need some advice and some help.
I purchased a BMW K1200 LTE 2003 in April of 2003.
I have less than 3200 miles on the bike.
I have had 3 Clutches replace under warranty due to ÔÇ£faulty partsÔÇØ.
I have had problems with the charging system and radio.
I can go in to details of dates and other problems and I will in the future.
IÔÇÖm posting this in hope that some one might be able to give me some advice or know who can turn to so I can get this problem resolved.
I purchase the bike new from a dealer in New York and I live in New Jersey.
I was told by customer service at BMW North America that there are no Lemon laws and they are not required to provide me with a new bike. In the past year my bike has been in the shop 12 weeks on and off for problems. IÔÇÖm at the end of my rope and was hoping some one out there that has had experience with a new motorcycle that was a lemon could help. I want BMW to come to the front line and replace this bike with a new one why do they seem to be disinterested in helping me.
They compensated me by sending me a check for $345 for being inconvenienced while my bike was being serviced under warranty.
My e-mail is hshash@aol.com and would be grateful for some intelligent input or if someone can point me in the right direction.
My dealer said that BMW should replace it and they were not able to help me that it was out of there hands.
BMW's Customer services representative Mr. B Novola said they were not going to replace the bike that they would however keep fixing any problems under warranty.
Any one that can help it would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Harry Shasho

PS
My 1993 Harley has 143000 miles with the original clutch.
SomethingÔÇÖs a lot wrong why isnÔÇÖt BMW Motorad playing games you would think after 3 major repairs they would help me. Now itÔÇÖs been in the shop since 3/9/03 because the clutch is acting up again after 300 miles geeze it now the 4th major problem.

eljeffe
03-22-2004, 09:39 PM
New Jersey includes Motorcycles in their Lemon Law.

http://autopedia.com/html/HotLinks_Lemon2.html

State: New Jersey 6/20/83 Amended 4/1/93

Covers: Passenger automobiles or motorcycles leased, purchased or registered in the state, except the living facilities of motor homes. (M)

Repair Attempts/Days out of Servcie: 3 repair attempts or more than 20 calendar days out of service.

Coverage Period: 2 years or 18,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

Also, you might check out www.bmwlt.net (the K1200LT resource on the internet)

Regards,

Jeff

Ironhorsecowboy
03-23-2004, 02:56 AM
a1340vtwin

Sent you an E-mail about some ideas on resolution of your bikes poor quality issues.

Good luck and keep us posted on your results.

Ironhorsecowboy--Ron Tinker:lol

gary442
03-23-2004, 07:26 PM
Wow..after reading the lemon list , I am particularly disturbed that California does not recognize motorcycles as part of the lemon law...hard to figure

dbrick
03-23-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by gary442
Wow..after reading the lemon list , I am particularly disturbed that California does not recognize motorcycles as part of the lemon law...hard to figure

Probably because it's not true.

The CA lemon law is in the Civil Code, and ?º 1793.22(e)2 defines covered vehicles. The principal definition for a covered vehicle is "a new motor vehicle that is bought or used primarily for personal, family, or household purposes." Later in that same section, there's a "does not include" clause which says "...does not include a motorcycle or a motor vehicle which is not registered under the Vehicle Code because it is to be operated or used exclusively off the highways."

This suggests to me that exclusively off-road vehicles don't qualify, but that licenseable road-legal bikes do. My view is supported by the language of the California Department of Consumer Affairs' brochure "Lemon-aid for Consumers," which uses both definitions above. In the section on what vehicles are and aren't covered, the brochure quotes exactly the "which is not registered" language above.

On the other hand, the state Attorney General, in his website, says: "The term "new motor vehicle," however, does not include motorcycles or exclusively off-road vehicles."

Given the broad general definition (primary use for personal, family, or household purposes) and the specificity of the exclusions, I think the AG is wrong, and his misapprehension arises from the could-be-clearer language of the statute.

There are no reported California cases which construe this particular language. I remember seeing a website from a CA attorney who does this sort of work (I don't) stating that the law did in fact apply to road-going bikes.

YB in IN
03-23-2004, 09:36 PM
Doesn't the 'MOA have someone serving as a consumer advocate for our members with BMWNA or whatever the heck they're called this month? Rob Lentini maybe? :confused:

99007
03-23-2004, 10:53 PM
Familiarize yourself with your rights under the Lemon Law.
Decide what it is that you want. (i.e. new bike, compensation or whatever)
Stick to your guns and work your way up the food chain.
Do not be put off by anyone who tries to dismiss your claim.
I liken this to trying to get some insurance claims handled. You have to know the facts, don't let anyone blow smoke up your hinney, and don't quit.
I had almost all of my worldly possessions in a storage place during a move and the roof leaked. I took pictures. They tried to brush me off for 6 weeks. Stuck to my guns and argued my way up the corporate ladder. Also filed complaints with the Insurance Commissioner of the State of Michigan.
It took awhile, but my claim was settled.
Hang tough and don't believe everything you are told - find out for yourself. Get in touch with the Consumer Division of your Attorney Generals office. Make a ruckus!!!
End of sermon. Good luck.

a1340vtwin
03-24-2004, 04:19 AM
Hi everyone,
(If youÔÇÖre going to read this please read the previous letter first this is part 2)
Thanks for the feedback it helps to know that there are ears out there.
I found out that through your direction I am protected by a lemon law even though I bought the BMW 1200 LTE in New York (which has no lemon law for motorcycles by the way) it is registered and titled in New Jersey.
I got off the phone today 3/23/04 with Mr. William Skully one of the heads of customer service of BMW motorad.
I informed him of my problem that I was having with my bike and if he was aware of my situation and he stated that Mr.Novola was and is in charge of this problem and was told he was aware of it.
My new found knowledge of the consumer law it did not impress him I was also told that they were not going to even entertain the idea of replacing this bike due to the fact they were able to "fix it" and make repairs to the bike the last 3 times.
Now that itÔÇÖs in for the same problem for the 4th time they want the opportunity to check and dismiss this any problems that I am telling them that exists with the clutch.
This motorcycle has now been in there possession for 3 weeks as of this Friday 3/26/04.
I was told that they donÔÇÖt see the makings of a 4th failed clutch even though it was slipping and developing a new personality after 300 miles on the ÔÇ£newÔÇØ replaced 3rd clutch.
They told me that they had one of the mechanics "drive my new motorcycle for several hundred miles to assure me that there is no problem with the clutch.
IÔÇÖm looking at what IÔÇÖm writing here and I know it might sound like IÔÇÖm crazy or inexperienced...IÔÇÖm not. As I said in my previous posting I have been riding for over 30 years and I feel BMW is just trying to dodge the fact that there is an on going problem with this bike.
The Dealer who I got it from BMW New York is a square guy (Joel) and has backed up my findings and provided me with good service from the time I walked in till present day.
When the second clutch failed Mr. Bob Novola from BMW asked me to bring the bike for its third replaced clutch to BMW MANHATTAN (BMW NY Competition) to ÔÇ£make sure the work is done properlyÔÇØ after they made the repair and replaced the clutch for the third time they (the service managers at BMW Manhattan) told me off the record that doubt that BMW NY replaced my clutch at all and thatÔÇÖs why I had a third blown clutch.
To me that was insane, IÔÇÖm being told now an authorized BMW dealer and service center might have not done the work they told me they did? That they gave me a Motorcycle that had a band aid?
Something is ay wrong here. I told the guys at BMW New York this and you can imagine what they said in response to that claim.
I am now caught in between a feud between two dealers that are 1 mile apart from each other, with BMW USA not looking out for my better interest.
Again the bottom line. 3 replaced clutches under warranty. The 3rd one they are now claiming it was patched up work from a bad repair job as opposed to warranty work.
A fourth problem with the clutch which they are telling me does not exist.
Now Keep in mind between all this was a replaced defective battery, a faulty charging system and a defective radio as well.
Now instead of them taking care of me a BMW customer I was told that they will not replace the bike but they will continue to make all repairs that fall under warranty.
In order for me to get what I want and I deserve I have to take legal actions? What happened to the word customer service? ÔÇ£HEY BMW IM ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS. DO THE RIGHT THING!!ÔÇØ
If any one has any information that can help me get through to some one that is at BMW that can help me please let me know.
I was told by Ellen Freedell that Mr. Arturo Pineiro who is the Executive Vice President of BMW Motor Cycles NA does not speak to customers in regards to consumer complaints.
Stay tune for updates next week.
I do appreciate all the advice from everyone; thank you for listening to my problem.
Sincerely
Harry Shasho

kbasa
03-24-2004, 05:58 AM
Two threads merged.

90288
03-24-2004, 02:27 PM
As much as I hate to say it, I think you might have to call out the Big Nuke on this: The Lawyers.

Clearly you are not able to communitcate your distress - or they are unable to understand your distress - perhaps someone needs to be looking out for your interests.

A letter on a law firms stationary may be able to send that message.:eek

Mudbug
03-24-2004, 07:27 PM
The latest rag from BMWRA reflects on how BMW NA looks at BMW motorcycle owners. Something about being whiners.

YB in IN
03-24-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by gsmetal
As much as I hate to say it, I think you might have to call out the Big Nuke on this: The Lawyers.

Clearly you are not able to communitcate your distress - or they are unable to understand your distress - perhaps someone needs to be looking out for your interests.

A letter on a law firms stationary may be able to send that message.:eek

Sounds like your next course of action to me as well. That or sell the bike back and buy a *GASP* Honda!

jdiaz
03-24-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by YB in IN
Sounds like your next course of action to me as well. That or sell the bike back and buy a *GASP* Honda!
Yeah, I hear Honda is making some smoking deals on Gold Wings with re-welded frames.

YB in IN
03-24-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by jdiaz
Yeah, I hear Honda is making some smoking deals on Gold Wings with re-welded frames.

:rofl:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :thumb

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:11 AM
Thanks for the feedback.
For the record I bought my bike from BMW of New York on 10th St from Joel Sacher.
He is a great guy.
I originally started out ant BMW of Manhattan they low balled me on the price of the BMW LTE and Joel gave me there low ball price to make a customer under 19k all in.
The first 2 clutches went out and both plus a small list of other things were taken care of I dealt with Mr. Novola on the second on.
He kicked me back $345 for the hassle of my ride being in service so long.
Any way when the third clutch went out I called up Mr. Novola and he recommended highly that I bring the bike to BMW Manhattan so they could do the work and check out BMW NY work.
At that point I wanted a new bike. He assured me things would be handled.
I got the bike back 3 weeks later repaired not fixed no compensation and David the service manager told me aside from a faulty tranny seal he found no reason other than it looks like the clutch might have not been replaced. I was amazed that he would even say such a thing.
Any way lots of apologize from Mr. Novola. And go on your way and enjoy the bike.
300 mile or so later the Clutch was developing that new personality of going bad the bike has been there for the last 3 weeks with the statement that they see nothing wrong.
I been riding for 30 years and IÔÇÖm on the escort team of the Blue Knight for the last 7 I know what Im doing.
Any way thatÔÇÖs were I am now...IÔÇÖve spoken to William Skully Mr. Novola's Boss. IÔÇÖve been turn down by Ellen Fredell who is Mr. Pineros Secretary He is the Vice president of BMW NA MOTORAD.
And Before taking legal action Ill exhaust all sources this way.
Again thanks keep in touch

Sincerely
Harry Shasho
R>W>P

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:20 AM
I thanks I appreciate that tip and I was made aware of that at the time of purchase and when I first rode the bike at Americade.
A few of my fellow Blue Knight brothers have the LT and we have switched bikes a few times in the past years and all there clutches are still working fine.

The repairs on the first two clutches are documented defective parts the third was speculation and replaced under warranty.
IÔÇÖm a 43year old driver with a titanium plate installed in my spine in June of 2003 IÔÇÖm a mellow rider with a BMW K1200 LTE that should be painted YELLOW because itÔÇÖs a LEMON.
DonÔÇÖt get me wrong or read in between the lines I love this bike I think itÔÇÖs the most responsive cruiser on the market with every luxury that a well season rider could want.
I just got the one that has some major problems.

dlearl476
03-26-2004, 04:20 AM
>A letter on a law firms stationary may be able to send that message.

My sentiment exactly. They won't take you seriously until a lawyer is involved. Several F650GS owners with surgin/stalling FI were remedied that way. Unfortunately, you may just get your money back, not a new bike.

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:22 AM
page 1 0f 4

Harry Shasho March 7th2004

206 Lakeview Ave.
Leonia, NJ 07605
Re BMW K1200 LTE
VIN No. WB1055A23ZD78787
Tel: 201 -363-1922
Cell: 917- 592-2881
E-mail HSHASH@AOL.COM



To whom it may concern,
This letter is the first that I have written to lodge a formal complaint.
My name is Harry Shasho and I have been riding motorcycles for the past 30 years.
I have owned dirt bikes, high performance bike, cruisers, choppers, and numerous other 2 wheeled vehicles and a skilled motorcyclist.
I am a member of The Blue Knights Law Enforcement motorcycle Club NY11 for the past 10 years and a part of there escort team.
I have also put over 140000 miles on my 1993 Harley Heritage.
I am giving you this brief outline of my self so that you understand that I am not a novice to riding motorcycles.
In April of 20003 after doing several months of research I decided to get the BMW LTE 1200.
At first I went to Manhattan BMW and priced it out and made a comparison to another dealer close by New York BMW.
After being low balled by Manhattan BMW I got my best price from Joel at BMW NY.
He was a stand up guy and kept his word and I made my purchase.
The next day after getting my bike home for some reason the battery was dead the next morning.
I had to drive from my home in New Jersey to get a battery tender to charge the battery I went back home and let my new bike sit and charge over night.
The next day It started up and I took it for a ride after about sixty miles. I stopped and the bike would not start the battery was dead I got a push start and got it home.
The next day I drove it to the dealer and he was kind enough to provide me with a new sealed battery at now extra charge and I went on my way with out any further problems I had my oil service after its break in period, bought a communication package did every thing I was supposed to do to maintain my new bike.

Now I wasnÔÇÖt able to ride for several months because I had spine surgery but as soon as was able bodied I started riding.
As I was approaching the thirteen hundred mile mark my shifting and clutch started to take on a slightly new personality I went to the dealer to find out if it is something to be concerned about I was told that itÔÇÖs working fine that just the way it shifts.
At the fifteen hundred mark I was riding home and my bike was loosing torque and the clutch was slipping and something was not right.
I called the dealer and he told me to get it in to the shop.
I used my road side warranty tow service the told me it would cost me two hundred and twenty two tow it and I would be reimburse one hundred I was pretty upset being that I

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:23 AM
page 2 of 4


only eighteen miles away it should be between eight five and tops one hundred and ten, but anyway I needed to get it there.
The bike got delivered and off to service it went.
I got a phone call from the dealer stated my clutch burned and every plate was destroyed and the whole system needed to be replaced.
I was told that a part was defective in the bikes which cause the clutch to burn out and be destroyed.
I didnÔÇÖt have my bike for a few weeks but it was ok I have another one to ride I figured stuff happens at least it happened close to home.
I was assured that everything was tested and the bike would not have any problems and it was safe to ride.
Record of Clutch Number 1.

I got my bike back everything was fine it even felt better than when I got it new.
I rode my bike and started to put some miles on it when all of sudden it started to once again get a new personality it its shifting and the engagement point was changing and something just wasnÔÇÖt right.
I was again luckily not to far from home by the time I got to my house the clutch was unresponsive in a gears here we go again.
I called the dealer called the towing service paid for a tow and got my bike to the dealer.
Less than twenty four hundred miles and my second clutch?
I was very upset to say the least.
The service tech was amazed and even questioned me an asked if I was doing hole shots with the bike.
I assured him I had never even so much had even popped the clutch on the bike.
The bike in my mind was not serviced properly I was assured that it would be this time that it would be taken apart and everything would be replace from top to bottom.
I was the told that there was a defective relay and it wasnÔÇÖt my fault.
And it was something that wasnÔÇÖt replaced last time because there was nothing wrong with it when it was service the first time.
During the time it was in service for almost 1 month I was also told that there was something wrong with the charging system and that my radio was being replaced under warranty as well because it had burned out.

I had made contact with Bob Nevola at BMW customer service during this repair time and told me that for the hassle and head aches an out of pocket expenses that he would send me
Three hundred twenty as compensation, Mean while I was making payments on a bike I didnÔÇÖt have to ride paying for tows that my free road side service didnÔÇÖt cover entirely and I had to rent a car because no one ever offered a loaner bike while every one of these problems happened.
Anyway I figured that it was better to have a little money back than nothing.
I spoke with Bob and I was assured that nothing like this has ever happened and that BMW is a stand up company and I asked if the bike could be replaced due to the fact it seems to be problematic or to say the least a LEMON.
I was told very upfront that it wouldnÔÇÖt be replace and donÔÇÖt worry everything will be fine this time around.
To say the least I was very uncomfortable with the ÔÇ£gremlinsÔÇØ in the high end motorcycle.

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:24 AM
Page 3 of 4


I asked Mr.Nevola what happens if another problem happens and that I take cross country road trips often he told me that BMW stand by there customers and all work is guaranteed.
Record of Clutch Number 2.

I got my bike and IÔÇÖm back n the road and every thing once again seems tight and great response and coming to about five hundred a thirty miles on the bike after its newly installed from top to bottom clutch when its starts to get a new personality once again after riding the bike from my home in New Jersey to Brooklyn on the way back the clutch lever took a longer pull out to engage and was starting to loose torque and for the third time it was all starting over again.
This time I called up Mr. Nevola and told him that I was really upset and I didnÔÇÖt want to bring it back to NY BMW for service that maybe they werenÔÇÖt doing the correct work and that I would like to bring it to Manhattan BMW, he said that they were a more reliable service facility and would be able to fix the problem once and for all.
I had the bike delivered once again via flat bed because it was not safe to ride there and one again out of my pocket because the warrantees tow company didnÔÇÖt have any one available.
I spoke with the service manager David who assured me they would find out why the clutch was burning out ad fix it once and for all.
I was told that the transmission seal wasnÔÇÖt replace on the last service but even more alarming that if he had to take a guess at why the clutch burned out after five hundred miles or so was that BMW of New York never replace the clutch and just put a band aid on it.
I dismissed that reason and was again assured that the bikes entire clutch system was replace from top to bottom including seals and new fluid etc.
David also rode the bike for the first ninety eight miles to make sure it was sound and safe.
When I picked up the bike I really needed to make sure nothing like this should happen again I was planning on doing some cross country riding and I wanted a safe sound bike I could get on the rode with.
I had to cancel two trip due to repairs and I just wanted the new bike in safe condition that I paid and that IÔÇÖm still paying for.
Record of Clutch Number 3


Well today is March 6th 2003 it has been three hundred and twenty mile since my new clutch only three thousand one hundred ninety five miles on the BMW LTE 1200.
And guess what itÔÇÖs screwing up again or should I say developing a new personality.
The bikes clutch does not engage properly in shifts to first gear and Intermittently it skipped gears it does not shift as smoothly as it should and has the same symptoms as it did when it failed the last threes times loosing torque and a longer shift before engagement.

Maybe its nothing, maybe its just needs adjustment or maybe IÔÇÖm writing this letter in hast.
Or maybe this bike is so filled with problems that it needs to be replaced.
I canÔÇÖt drive a new bike that I donÔÇÖt feel safe on, that has had three clutches and a charging system replaced and a radio.
I bought a new bike for twenty thousand dollars that has been in a service shop for al most 3 months out of eleven.

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:25 AM
Page 4 of 4



Tomorrow is Monday the eight of March 2004 and Once again for the fourth time I have to stop work and rearrange my life to speak to service get my bike there have it checked out and go thru another hassle with by brand new LTE 1200.

I have been told by a few people including Mr. Nevola that there are no state Lemon laws on new motorcycles.
I know that there is however federal laws and acts have protected buyer in the past and continue to do so.
I might be jumping the gun a little bit but considering what I have been through in the past any one should and will understand me being upset.
I will make the efforts to get this bike into service the week of March 8th 2004.
I do not feel safe on this bike and it is not something that can be deemed reliable it is a danger to me as well as any passenger or any other rider in a vehicle that is next to me and this LTE 1200.
BMW has to come through with a new bike for all of this hassle I have been through I bought a new bike with anticipation that I would have years of trouble free riding.
I will post this issue with The Blue Knights Web site WWW.BLUEKNIGHTS.ORG which has over eleven thousand memberÔÇÖs world wide to let them know how BMW handles this issue.
I will contact every consumer advocate and public office that I can and I will also hire an attorney to start legal proceedings.
I am prepared to make this a full time project.
I am so very surprised that the third time around some one hasnÔÇÖt said hey let get this customer a new motorcycle.
Please donÔÇÖt read in between the line of this letter I will wait a reasonable time for some one of authority to respond to this complaint and offer a resolution to this on going problem.

Sincerely
Harry Shasho

CC

a1340vtwin
03-26-2004, 04:42 AM
HI,
I WOULD LOVE TO THROW IT IN THE HAND OF THE LAWYERS I HAVE A LOT OF BETTER THING THEN TO SPEND HOURS TYPING LETTER AND COMPLAINING.
I HATE DOING THIS SH-T!!!!!
THE PROBLEM IS I WAS TOLD BY MR. NOVOLA THE CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE IF I PUT THIS IN THE HANDS OF AN ATTORNEY THE NO ONE IN CUSTOMER SERVICE OR AT THE AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER CAN DEAL WITH ME AND IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TURN OVER TO THERE LEGAL DEPARTMENT.
I FIGURED IF I GOT THIS PROBLEM OUT WERE SOME ONE CAN SEE IT I WOULD BE HELPED.
IM GOING TO GIVE IT A FEW WEEKS BEFORE GIVING UP.
AND THEN IM REALLY GOING TTO GO AL THE WAY.
I HAVE SOME GREAT TELEPHONE NUMBERS FOR THE PRESS.
ILL TAK THE REFUND AND GO OUT A BUY THE SAME MODEL BIKE I THINK ITS ONE OF THE BEST BIKES I HAVE EVER RODE IN 30 YEARS.\I JUST GOT THE ONE FROM HELL.

HEY BMW NA TAKE CARE OF THIS CUSTOMER IM NOT GOING AWAY.
IN THE NEXT THREAD I POST I AM GOING TO PUT THE NAMES OF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AT BMW NA MOTORAD FOR THE RECORD.
I MIGHT AS WELL GIVE ALL THE MEMBERS A CHANCE TO MAKE LEMON AID OUT OF LEMONS.
IF IM GETTING A RUN AROUND IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!!
I DIDNT HAVE TO PAY 20K FOR THIS ABUSE I COULD GET IT FOR FREE FROM MY OLD LADY:) ONLY KIDDING HONEY

kbasa
03-26-2004, 06:07 AM
Harry,

Stop clicking New Thread when you want to Post a Reply. It makes a mess outta the forum. Now I've gotta merge all these things together.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Dave

YB in IN
03-26-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by a1340vtwin
HI,
I WOULD LOVE TO THROW IT IN THE HAND OF THE LAWYERS I HAVE A LOT OF BETTER THING THEN TO SPEND HOURS TYPING LETTER AND COMPLAINING.
I HATE DOING THIS SH-T!!!!!
THE PROBLEM IS I WAS TOLD BY MR. NOVOLA THE CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE IF I PUT THIS IN THE HANDS OF AN ATTORNEY THE NO ONE IN CUSTOMER SERVICE OR AT THE AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER CAN DEAL WITH ME AND IT WOULD HAVE TO BE TURN OVER TO THERE LEGAL DEPARTMENT.
I FIGURED IF I GOT THIS PROBLEM OUT WERE SOME ONE CAN SEE IT I WOULD BE HELPED.
IM GOING TO GIVE IT A FEW WEEKS BEFORE GIVING UP.
AND THEN IM REALLY GOING TTO GO AL THE WAY.
I HAVE SOME GREAT TELEPHONE NUMBERS FOR THE PRESS.
ILL TAK THE REFUND AND GO OUT A BUY THE SAME MODEL BIKE I THINK ITS ONE OF THE BEST BIKES I HAVE EVER RODE IN 30 YEARS.\I JUST GOT THE ONE FROM HELL.

HEY BMW NA TAKE CARE OF THIS CUSTOMER IM NOT GOING AWAY.
IN THE NEXT THREAD I POST I AM GOING TO PUT THE NAMES OF ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AT BMW NA MOTORAD FOR THE RECORD.
I MIGHT AS WELL GIVE ALL THE MEMBERS A CHANCE TO MAKE LEMON AID OUT OF LEMONS.
IF IM GETTING A RUN AROUND IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!!
I DIDNT HAVE TO PAY 20K FOR THIS ABUSE I COULD GET IT FOR FREE FROM MY OLD LADY:) ONLY KIDDING HONEY

Dude I know that you're pissed, and rightfully so, but you don't have to SHOUT!:)

a1340vtwin
03-27-2004, 02:49 AM
Sorry about the new threads..I didnt know that was not the way to do things. Im new to this forum. Sorry.

And to my case sensitive readers I wasnt yelling Im just a bad writer with caps lock on.

Any way I have alot on my plate today to eat and to figure out what is the best way to proceed with my problem.
Some people email me and say dont give up the complaint some say throw it to the lawyers.
I was told today to pick up my bike after 3 weeks in the shop and was told they found there is nothing wrong with it.
How can that be?
I ask for a letter to verifie that they found no problems in the clutch and that the bike was safe to ride...you can guesse what the answer was... A firm no.
Now do I pick up my bike? ride it? enjoy it? keep fighting?send it to the laywers?
Wait for it to maybe screw up again maybe this time hundreds of miles from home?
I dont know? I cant seem to get any one higher than Bob Novola or Bill Scully from BMW to talk to me.
And you can imagine the tone of conversation after the Posting I put up. For the record I hold no malice Mr. Novola Or Mr. Scully I guess they feel they are just looking out for the intrest of the company that they work for.
The only problem is that people like you and me are what make or break companies.
You would figure that some one from BMW NA MOTORAD would get involved with this forum. I guess they think they could wear me out this way.

CustomSarge
03-27-2004, 12:19 PM
I pose this to have those who really DO know say yes/no. Would a transmission input shaft bearing problem cause the type of troubles alluded to here? I say "alluded" only as a I must have missed a full description of "personality" in its' behavior. To me, clutches either fully engage/disengage or not. I don't think it can affect shift fork function. Exception: clutch not disengaging leaves internal gears torque-loaded. Could a gyrating input shaft take out the seal & goof with the clutch pack?

kbasa
03-27-2004, 07:55 PM
First hydraulic clutch? They can be a bit numb if you're used a dry clutch on a bike that makes peak torque just off idle.

Just sayin' is all.

a1340vtwin
03-28-2004, 04:02 AM
Thanks for the imput I understand and have expierence with both clutches and they doe reide a little different.
But I would think unless your doing hole shots and radical down shifts how can you burn out a clutch in lessthan 300 miles.
I did pro eduro races in Palm Springs for 3 years ( 25 years ago)
Its pretty dang hard to burn out a clutch doing 4 round trips at 60 miles each on the higway.... no?

THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY E MAILS I HAVE RECIEVED FROM MY FELLOW BLUE KNIGHTS>
Hi Harry,

Sorry, I don't know anyone with any kind of connections to BMW. I will however tell you that because of you and some others I have changed my mind and am NOT buying that K1200LT that I was looking at. I am going to look for a 2004 GL 1800 instead. good luck .

Tony

I did explain fully I love the bike ( when it was working )I just got a lemon.
COME ON BMW NA GIVE ME A BREAK I JUST WANT A SAFE BIKE TO RIDE.

deilenberger
03-28-2004, 05:43 AM
I did a bit of snipping..


Originally posted by a1340vtwin
Any way I have alot on my plate today to eat and to figure out what is the best way to proceed with my problem.

I was told today to pick up my bike after 3 weeks in the shop and was told they found there is nothing wrong with it.

How can that be?



Have you found another K12LT rider to try your bike and give an opinion on how the clutch and shifting feel to them?

Just curious - if it feels wrong to them - you then have something to present to BMW-Motorad. If not - it may be (and I'm not denigrating your experience) - that a single plate dry hydraulic operated clutch does feel different than what you were used to.

It's not just "hole-shots" that will burn up a clutch - a slow release is about the worst thing you can do for a dry clutch. You want to move off briskly and be done with the clutch ASAP. Excessive slipping of the clutch on takeoff will cause it to wear prematurely.

Take it as just a suggestion - but I'm sure there is someone in the NY/NJ area with a K-LT that could take it for a ride.

I did see in one posting you made - something about an oil seal being replaced - this WILL make a clutch start to slip.. and replacing all the components and the oil seal should give you new clutch operation.

I do kind of question if that like most of us - once bitten we tend to obsess - you may be feeling changes that aren't really significant due to obsessing over the clutch.

It's human nature to do that kind of thing (I'm real good at it..) So a second opinion on the clutch might do a lot for your peace of mind - or give you ammo to go to the dealer and BMW with.

Best,

a1340vtwin
03-31-2004, 02:14 AM
Sorry to here about your problems with this bike. Some background on me. I'm currently President of Ohio Chapter IX and I am also a Cincinnati Police Officer Assigned to the Motor Unit. We currently use HD Electra Glides and the City wants to got to BMW because of the cost. We've given a lot of feed back to our Fleet Mgr about Bmw"s and he thinks it's just us. Just to let you know last spring The Greater Cincinnati Airport purchased one, and brought it to train on. Gee the bike lasted less than two days before the clutch was shot and the bike was trailored to the dealer only to find they don't stock clutches. I believe the service took over 2 weeks. Be advised that your letter was fowarded to our Fleet Mgr with hopes that he will now think twice as you and anyone else who has a bike wants to be riding it not repairing it. Please feel free to advise BMW thatÔÇÖs this letter was forwarded to The City of Cincinnati Police Fleet Manager. Hope you get some satisfaction soon.
Ride With Pride
Terry T.
Cincinnati Ohio

kbasa
03-31-2004, 02:43 AM
How did you post as Harry?

deilenberger
03-31-2004, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by a1340vtwin
Sorry to here about your problems with this bike. Some background on me. I'm currently President of Ohio Chapter IX and I am also a Cincinnati Police Officer Assigned to the Motor Unit. We currently use HD Electra Glides and the City wants to got to BMW because of the cost. We've given a lot of feed back to our Fleet Mgr about Bmw"s and he thinks it's just us. Just to let you know last spring The Greater Cincinnati Airport purchased one, and brought it to train on. Gee the bike lasted less than two days before the clutch was shot and the bike was trailored to the dealer only to find they don't stock clutches. I believe the service took over 2 weeks. Be advised that your letter was fowarded to our Fleet Mgr with hopes that he will now think twice as you and anyone else who has a bike wants to be riding it not repairing it. Please feel free to advise BMW thatÔÇÖs this letter was forwarded to The City of Cincinnati Police Fleet Manager. Hope you get some satisfaction soon.
Ride With Pride
Terry T.
Cincinnati Ohio

I'm assuming this is a quote of an email you got?

If so - the police are notorious for slipping the clutch while using the rear brake, and with linked brakes - that means all the brakes.

It isn't a surprise that they have clutch problems, but since quite a few other police departments, CHIPS, emergency crews, EMT's, the Pentagon ALL have managed to use BMW's for official bikes - I don't think the problem is with the bike.

I strongly suspect it's with the police who are using it - and in my experience - they have sorta a macho thing about wanting to be on Harleys.

Saw a lot of "authority" bikes when I was in England last spring - including the ones that accompany the Prime Minister when he travels about. I sorta doubt if they have clutch problems.

I haven't seen any reply from you on my suggestion that you let another K12LT rider try your bike. I'm in NJ - our local club has about 4 members who have K12LT's - and I'm sure one of them would be glad to try it out and let you know how the clutch feels.

Of course if it feels fine to them - I'd have to guess that the problem isn't with the bike.

Ping me if you're interested. We have a meeting on the 2nd Weds of April... the riders in question are about sure to be there.

dlearl476
03-31-2004, 04:31 AM
>It isn't a surprise that they have clutch problems, but since quite a few other police departments, CHIPS, emergency crews, EMT's, the Pentagon ALL have managed to use BMW's for official bikes - I don't think the problem is with the bike.

I think what is evident in this post and many others is that the problem is with BMW-NA. Here is Vegas, after making a big push to get the NHP on K's, they PULLED THE DEALERSHIP. The solution offered by NA was to have the state PAY to have the bikes shipped to CA for service.
:idea
Needless to say there are a LOT of RTPs for sale cheap here in Vegas!

sgborgstrom
04-02-2004, 05:11 PM
If so - the police are notorious for slipping the clutch while using the rear brake, and with linked brakes - that means all the brakes.

It isn't a surprise that they have clutch problems, but since quite a few other police departments, CHIPS, emergency crews, EMT's, the Pentagon ALL have managed to use BMW's for official bikes - I don't think the problem is with the bike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny, I was thinking about this yesterday. I remember talking to the mechanics down at Services about the Authority bikes the Seattle PD was testing, seems they liked the bikes but kept burning out the clutches...these were all bike cops with plenty of time on the Kawasakis. Something about the way they ride just cooked those dry clutches. Interestingly, Washington State Patrol has a bunch of them, I heard their biggest problem was tripping the ABS by spinning the rear tire too much.

Based on the evidence presented here I'm thinking the issue might be operator error on the part of 1340vtwin, not a fault of the LT. Not to slam another riders ability...but the pattern fits.

Steve

a1340vtwin
04-03-2004, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by deilenberger
I'm assuming this is a quote of an email you got?

If so - the police are notorious for slipping the clutch while using the rear brake, and with linked brakes - that means all the brakes.

It isn't a surprise that they have clutch problems, but since quite a few other police departments, CHIPS, emergency crews, EMT's, the Pentagon ALL have managed to use BMW's for official bikes - I don't think the problem is with the bike.

I strongly suspect it's with the police who are using it - and in my experience - they have sorta a macho thing about wanting to be on Harleys.

Saw a lot of "authority" bikes when I was in England last spring - including the ones that accompany the Prime Minister when he travels about. I sorta doubt if they have clutch problems.

I haven't seen any reply from you on my suggestion that you let another K12LT rider try your bike. I'm in NJ - our local club has about 4 members who have K12LT's - and I'm sure one of them would be glad to try it out and let you know how the clutch feels.

Of course if it feels fine to them - I'd have to guess that the problem isn't with the bike.

Ping me if you're interested. We have a meeting on the 2nd Weds of April... the riders in question are about sure to be there.

Thank you very much for the invitation to your clubs meeting its appreciated....
I got my bike back on Tuesday March 30/ 2004. from BMW ...so far everything seems to be right.
For the record let it be know the bike did have 2 clutch replacements due to defective parts...the 3rd was due to a bad seal which leaked. THere was no need to have the bikes riden by another driver because the clutches were burned down to the point that they did not function period. This falure was immediated and with only a warning of failure from it starting to slip and 30 miles after it was starting to sliping a total failure of the clutch. As far as your statement of being a macho thing..I have a harley I enjoy it but my BMW is definitly a much better ride..I am trying to work out a trade for the 2005 LT.
Im only being offered 13k trade-in $6200 less than what I paid for it 11 months ago with 3200 miles.
My harley I paid 13k 11 years ago I got offered 10k.. with 143000 miles ...Big value difference..
If I cant get a great deal on my bike as a trade in from one of the dealers Ill ride my 03 as long as she will have me.
I have do recourse because of the PA/J LEmon Law..
I just dont have to want to wait up to a year to have the bike replaced. If I have to eat a couple of K's to have a new bike so be it.
Any way when I have the head I will post my last letters and answers from BMW NA and all those concerned.
Thanks for lend me your ears and thoughts..
RWP ...Ride with Pride. and be safe all.

a1340vtwin
04-03-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by sgborgstrom
If so - the police are notorious for slipping the clutch while using the rear brake, and with linked brakes - that means all the brakes.

It isn't a surprise that they have clutch problems, but since quite a few other police departments, CHIPS, emergency crews, EMT's, the Pentagon ALL have managed to use BMW's for official bikes - I don't think the problem is with the bike.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny, I was thinking about this yesterday. I remember talking to the mechanics down at Services about the Authority bikes the Seattle PD was testing, seems they liked the bikes but kept burning out the clutches...these were all bike cops with plenty of time on the Kawasakis. Something about the way they ride just cooked those dry clutches. Interestingly, Washington State Patrol has a bunch of them, I heard their biggest problem was tripping the ABS by spinning the rear tire too much.

Based on the evidence presented here I'm thinking the issue might be operator error on the part of 1340vtwin, not a fault of the LT. Not to slam another riders ability...but the pattern fits.

Steve

The issue was of operator error was never in question.

2 Defective relays, 1 defective seal. 1 defective charging system 1 defective radio 1 defective battery.
That smells like lemon aid ..doesnt it?

The clutch handiling is a little different than Harleys but not that radical of a difference.
You can without question feel the difference in how the clutch engages and adjust your riding habbits.

Gary99
04-04-2004, 07:37 AM
Think I would also go to the shysters, much as I hate to say it. Since you have accepted previous cash compensation, your remedies may be limited though. Just my 2?ó.