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110066
03-03-2004, 04:03 PM
there was an article in the last issue of On (or whatever it is called) about repairing the spline shaft -

do these wear out like that often? or was this a freak occurance

I factor in the cost of a new chain when buying other bikes - should I factor in this job if I buy a k with 90K on it?

knary
03-03-2004, 04:11 PM
What flavor K are you thinking of?

If, for example, it was a K75, I might. You should always ask about the splines. And if you're going so far as having a mechanic look over the bike or you feel up to it, definitely make an assessment of those rear splines. FWIW, those on my old K, with 120k+ miles when I sold it, were looking very used, but still holding fine.

FWIW, Hansen's BMW in Medford, OR will do the job for under $500, and that includes a new drive shaft.

CustomSarge
03-03-2004, 04:24 PM
It's a consequence of the design. It's my understanding that, with proper maintenence, total mileage isn't an issue. Without periodic maintenence, splines will dry up & start to wear on each other. This for both rear drive <> driveshaft and clutch disk <> trans input shaft. Antiseize has to be refreshed. The question is how often. I think there are mileage & time maximums, but any more often than those depend on riding style, miles per year and climate/environment. Refreshing the rear drive spline is relatively easy, the clutchplate is another story. I'll yield to the several experts who view these forums for better details. I'd appreciate their wisdom, on both parts of the topic, for my education, too.

sgborgstrom
03-03-2004, 06:25 PM
Working on a schedule of disassembly and relubing every 20K miles or so has kept the splines on my 1991 K100RS looking almost new. I use some really sticky high-moly content stuff from Honda. It seems to stick better over time than the BMW recommended lube. Your 90,000 mile bike might be just fine, it might be on the verge of total failure or more likely it is somewhere in between. The problem is you won't know until you take it apart and look. Figure on a day long project the first time, you are going to need a good torque wrench, some fairly large sockets and ratchetable allen wrenches to do the job properly. It gets quicker with practice and the tools you have to buy will pay for themselves the first time you do it. I'd rather not go into details but make sure you torque the brake caliper bolts correctly on assembly...

After 16 years and well over 100,000 miles of BMW riding I am convinced that a good part of the brand's reputation for longevity is due in good part to the fact that you have to strip them so far down on a regular basis to do things like lube the clutch splines.

Steve

deilenberger
03-03-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by brian thompson
there was an article in the last issue of On (or whatever it is called) about repairing the spline shaft -

do these wear out like that often? or was this a freak occurance

I factor in the cost of a new chain when buying other bikes - should I factor in this job if I buy a k with 90K on it?

As Scott pointed out - these have to be factored into buying a used K bike.. and perhaps moreso on a K75.

Ok - the facts - from one of the spline-gang (from the IBMWR mailing list - where this was an ongoing project/research for several years..)

The splines to worry about (and there are other ones on the bike - but not worrysome ones):

1. Driveshaft/rear-drive spline. This is a sliding spline with a slight offset motion to it due to the use of a single universal joint in the driveshaft (paralever bikes don't have this concern - two U joints).

Wear on this is considered "normal" - but can be greatly delayed by regular maintanence and inspection of the splines. As someone else mentioned - Honda Moly60 is the lube that we've had good results with. BMW#10 is a disaster in this application. RedLine makes a synthetic moly lube that one person had very good results with.

The maintanence is simple - every other rear tire swap (or 10-15,000 miles - whichever comes first) you want to relube this spline. IF is has Honda Moly60 - it's really a simple job. You can do it (greatly simplified version) by putting a board under the rear tire to support the tire - loosening things like the brake caliper and wiring going to the rear drive - then unbolting it with the 4 big allen bolts that hold it to the swingarm. At that point - you can slide it rearwards far enough to see and lube the splines (a nice 1/2" wide artists brush works well).

If it has never been lubed, or unfortunately was lubed with BMW#10 - it's a bit more complicated since you should remove all traces of old lube, inspect the splines for wear (a fingernail is the best test - if you feel a step in the spline surface - it's worn) and then lubricate them with your lube of choice. The reason to clean them first - often different lubes don't mix well with each other.

If you do this on a regular schedule - chances are very good that your driveshaft splines will outlast your interest in the bike (ie - more than 100k miles, some WAY more..)

2. The other splines of interest are the clutch/transmission input shaft splines. More of a job. I can do them on a K75 without ABS in about 90-120 minutes now. Add 15 minutes for ABS. The K75 was particularly prone to failure of these splines - perhaps due to the way they were shipped to the US (long story that I'll skip) - the shipping distorted the transmission to engine alignment, causing a mis-alignment that wore these splines out - at very regular intervals (about 16-18k miles - like clockwork). An early indicator of a problem with these splines is difficulty in downshifting, especially 4-3 and 3-2 (which should be very smooth if things are OK..)

We can assume with 90k miles on the bike - this bike didn't suffer this fate and the transmission/engine alignment is OK.

In this case - I'd want to open it up and clean and lube the splines with Honda Moly60. If the splines are in decent shape - you can then forget about them for at least 20,000 miles (mine looked good enough I'm waiting for at least 30,000 miles before examining them again).

This job requires R&R of the reardrive, swingarm, transmission - and is a fairly major job. There are lots of details on doing it on the IBMWR website under the K-techpages.

That's the spline story.. if we had some webspace I could post some photos of good and bad splines to give you an idea - but the fingernail test is my acid test. Draw your nail UP out of the spline valley - it should go smoothly from bottom to the top of the spline. If you feel a step or catch - the splines are worn. I'd have to see really good detailed photos of the cleaned splines to give you some idea of how bad they are..

HTH,

kbasa
03-03-2004, 10:59 PM
Do you have photos on your site, Don? You can link the images here using the IMG tags.

YB in IN
03-04-2004, 12:08 AM
Another place to consider getting a rebuild done is from Bruno's in Canada. They actually a bit more metal to the end, and heat treat it. I am anxiously awaiting the return of my splines from them to see if they are as good as everyone says they are. I believe the cost was about $250 or so. Not quite sure as it was a birthday/Christmas present thing from my parents. I think that my dad likes to help perpetuate the cycle of motorcycle addiction in our family. :)

CustomSarge
03-04-2004, 01:12 AM
Two thumbs up to "deilenberger" for enough detail to satisfy the "AR" in me. The way they were shipped ?? wow. But now: does anyone have knowledge/history with Loctites' copper filled anti-seize model C5-A, label says it's good to 1800F (900C). I've always trusted Loctite, but it'd be an expensive assumption here.

deilenberger
03-04-2004, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by KBasa
Do you have photos on your site, Don? You can link the images here using the IMG tags.

Nope.. but I could prolly do that when I get a chance. Club newletter has priority tonight :)

deilenberger
03-04-2004, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by CustomSarge
Two thumbs up to "deilenberger" for enough detail to satisfy the "AR" in me. The way they were shipped ?? wow. But now: does anyone have knowledge/history with Loctites' copper filled anti-seize model C5-A, label says it's good to 1800F (900C). I've always trusted Loctite, but it'd be an expensive assumption here.

Antiseize in general isn't a lubricant. Temperature isn't the problem on either spline - it's impact load, sliding motion combined with an axial offset (well - on the clutch - the axial offset only occurs IF the engine/trans alignment isn't correct).

The plus with moly based lubes - moly actually plates itself to the metal when it is under load, creating a soft, slippery wearing surface. If the actual lubricant (which is grease) fails - the moly helps prevent damage - at least for a while.

We did try other lubricants - one which was made by Dow Corning had a very high moly content - but the base lubricant wasn't that great - and wear was visible. The Honda lube seems to do a good job - it's readily available (they use it on Gold-Wing driveshaft splines - which have the same sort of problem).

BMW recently came out with a new lubricant - I haven't tried it because I can't afford to sacrifice a driveshaft/rear-drive if it doesn't work well - but at least they have given up on BMW#10 lube.

CustomSarge
03-04-2004, 02:26 AM
The temperature reference was more for abrasive/galling tolerance than environmental. I'd always thought of anti-seize as the next higher viscosity relative of a gear lube, but apparently it's intent/formulation is quite different. I've got some homework to do....

kbasa
03-04-2004, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by CustomSarge
The temperature reference was more for abrasive/galling tolerance than environmental. I'd always thought of anti-seize as the next higher viscosity relative of a gear lube, but apparently it's intent/formulation is quite different. I've got some homework to do....

Isn't the purpose of anti-sieze to prevent electron transfer that makes dissimilar metals get stuck together? I've always wondered how it worked, but never been sure.

CustomSarge
03-04-2004, 04:14 AM
ARF! I'm info-challenged here. I know the dissimilar metals & large temperature cycle applications. I'd just projected it onto as the next gooier of molybdinum(?) disulfide type of chain lubes. Is there a physical chemist in the house?

deilenberger
03-04-2004, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by KBasa
Isn't the purpose of anti-sieze to prevent electron transfer that makes dissimilar metals get stuck together? I've always wondered how it worked, but never been sure.

Actually - not. It just forms a non-binding layer between two metal surfaces (which could be dissimular or the same metals). It works by having small particles in it that basically are free to move a bit. It will help keep moisture out of the metal to metal joint, which helps prevent corrosion.

As an aside - I got REAL familiar with galvanic action on dissimular metals when I owned sailboats. Stainless screws into an aluminum mast was almost a guarantee of corrosion and snapped off screws when you went to remove one - unless I smeared (tech-term) the stainless screw with silicone grease before installing it.

The grease excluded air and moisture, and formed a barrier preventing the electron transfer. Screws treated this way unscrewed easily and looked perfect even after years of salt-water exposure. There are some specific marine grade anti-seizes made - which in my experience cost a lot more and never worked as well as the old Dow-Corning Silicone vacuum grease I used.

LORAZEPAM
03-04-2004, 06:48 PM
If you ask for DC-4 that will get you the silicone that Don referred to. I used to use it all the time, and it works great for all kinds of stuff.

110066
03-04-2004, 07:08 PM
Holy Crow-

You guys are a bit more technical than some other groups I belong to!!

Thanks for all the info about splines and spline service
If push comes to shove I may have to request contact info on these spline refurbishing guys.

thanks again

knary
03-04-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by brian thompson
Holy Crow-

You guys are a bit more technical than some other groups I belong to!!

Thanks for all the info about splines and spline service
If push comes to shove I may have to request contact info on these spline refurbishing guys.

thanks again

There's a reason we keep Don around. Between the pieces of feces he's always flinging around his cage are some technical gems.
:D

kbasa
03-04-2004, 08:51 PM
:rofl

Does he make you call him The Don too?

tjtraver
03-08-2004, 04:05 AM
Background :
I just lubed the rear splines on my 1995 K75 with 13k miles on it. The rear spline was essentially dry but not worn, the front drive shaft spline still had lube visible. Lubing both was very easy ; used the Honda 60 lube everyone has praised.

As the rear spline was essential dry, I'm wondering if I ought to do the trans splines ... By rights I shouldn't need to, as it up/down shifts smoothly, giving no indication of problems, plus the BMW maint schedule says 40,000 miles for this lube ....

The trans spline lube is significantly more involved, so would like to delay it if I could, or see if there's an easier way.

Question :
Having never done the BMW trans spline lube, not sure how tight clearances are, so this is probably a real dumb idea ... But having worked on manual car transmissions before, and lubing throwout bearing forks etc, here's what I was thinking. Would it be possible to inspect / perform a clutch spline lube with everthing in situ, if a 3/4 inspection hole were drilled thru the bottom of the bell housing? The hole would be filled with a black rubber plug. I'm sure I'll just do it by the book , as I don't want to butcher the bike in anyway (it's in pristine condition, and I want to keep it that way ), but just had to ask , as if it did work , would enable me to easily stay on top of spline lubing this bike ... Thanks in advance for any feedback. I'll readily accept a "don't even think about it, it won't work " from the resident K bikes gurus. Thanks ... Todd Traver

deilenberger
03-08-2004, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by tjtraver

Background :
I just lubed the rear splines on my 1995 K75 with 13k miles on it. The rear spline was essentially dry but not worn, the front drive shaft spline still had lube visible. Lubing both was very easy ; used the Honda 60 lube everyone has praised.

As the rear spline was essential dry, I'm wondering if I ought to do the trans splines ... By rights I shouldn't need to, as it up/down shifts smoothly, giving no indication of problems, plus the BMW maint schedule says 40,000 miles for this lube ....

The trans spline lube is significantly more involved, so would like to delay it if I could, or see if there's an easier way.

Question :
Having never done the BMW trans spline lube, not sure how tight clearances are, so this is probably a real dumb idea ... But having worked on manual car transmissions before, and lubing throwout bearing forks etc, here's what I was thinking. Would it be possible to inspect / perform a clutch spline lube with everthing in situ, if a 3/4 inspection hole were drilled thru the bottom of the bell housing? The hole would be filled with a black rubber plug. I'm sure I'll just do it by the book , as I don't want to butcher the bike in anyway (it's in pristine condition, and I want to keep it that way ), but just had to ask , as if it did work , would enable me to easily stay on top of spline lubing this bike ... Thanks in advance for any feedback. I'll readily accept a "don't even think about it, it won't work " from the resident K bikes gurus. Thanks ... Todd Traver

Don't even think about it, it won't work :-)

The design of the clutch is such that there is no clear path to the splines without removal of the transmission.

Some dealers use a shortcut of moving the tranmission back about 1" and then using a long brush to slobber (tech-term) lube on the part of the splines that are exposed.

I don't recommend this. If the lubes are incompatible (and BMW #10 and Honda-Moly60 are incompatible) - you're likely to make things a lot worse. There is also the worry about excess slobbered on lube getting on the clutch disk.

If you're comfortable R&R'ing a car transmission - the K bike one really isn't all that bad. You do need a means of supporting the bike withtout the centerstand/sidestand and rear wheel - but various techniques are described in detail on the IBMWR K-tech pages.

Plan on a full day the first time - once you get some experience at doing it (and know exactly which wrench fits what and what order things have to come off) - it can be done in about 90 minutes by two people doing it on a lift.

Despite the low miles on your bike - the bike is now about 10 years old - for peace of mind when riding to distant places this riding season, if it was me - I'd do the clutch spline lube.

And as always - clean up ALL the old lube from the splines and then use lube of choice (as you noted - we've had very good luck with Honda Moly-60.

Best,

tjtraver
03-08-2004, 04:30 AM
Don,

Thanks for the info ! And also for such a VERY speedy reply... I will do it by the book, using the hang-it-by-a-rope-from-the-garage-ceiling method ... sometime before the riding season really kicks in ... from reading the manual, yes, would have to think first time thru it will easily take several hours... Thanks again, hope to meet you sometime, seeing you are just across the river from me in NJ... Thanks again ... Todd Traver ( do you ever hook up the the BMW riders at Stateline overlook off the Palisades on Sunday mornings ? ).

deilenberger
03-08-2004, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by tjtraver
Don,

Thanks for the info ! And also for such a VERY speedy reply... I will do it by the book, using the hang-it-by-a-rope-from-the-garage-ceiling method ... sometime before the riding season really kicks in ... from reading the manual, yes, would have to think first time thru it will easily take several hours... Thanks again, hope to meet you sometime, seeing you are just across the river from me in NJ... Thanks again ... Todd Traver ( do you ever hook up the the BMW riders at Stateline overlook off the Palisades on Sunday mornings ? ).

Actually - nope. Too much traffic and too many cars up that part of the state. I just blast through it usually, or go up the western edge of NJ (nice roads there..)

A suggestion - before doing it - pull out one of the tranny bolts (it won't fall off) - visit an autoparts place. Get the same thread bolt about 3" long. Get 4-5 of them. Cut the heads off and slot them for a screwdriver. These make very nice guide bolts so you're not holding the weight of the tranny when removing and reinstalling it. Makes it a MUCH easier job. On disassembly - just take out a bolt and thread in the guide pin you made, then the next one and the next one.. etc. On reassembly - put them in the bottom 4 bolt holes.

Best (and you might consider coming to the NEPB - the Internet North-East Presidents Breakfast - April 24-25 near Mount Holly NJ..)

CustomSarge
03-08-2004, 01:05 PM
TNX Don for the "cut-off bolt as guide" idea, it's great. Real glad I put 2 cents in; 5 came back!

tjtraver
03-08-2004, 02:30 PM
Don , Now there's something I didn't see in any manual. Thanks so much for the great idea ... ! Makes perfect sense !

If schedues permit, will try and make it down there the end of April ... an excellent excuse for a nice ride down along the Delaware river... Thanks Again ! ... Todd

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 12:49 AM
Here's what the cut-off bolts should look like:

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 12:50 AM
And here's what the trans spline should look like:

knary
03-09-2004, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by jdiaz
And here's what the trans spline should look like:

wow! clean!

The bolt trick is very good and works very well. I didn't bother to slot them as they always spun right in by hand without any fuss.

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by knary
wow! clean!

Yeah, I'd never seen the parts looking that good either. What's more amazing is those pictures were taken right after we'd pulled the bike apart.....25K miles and four years since the splines were lubed last time. We didn't have to clean a thing other than the splines. I've never been that lucky before.

I had the clutch basket seal in hand and was prepared to disassemble the clutch, but everything looked great when we pulled it back. And knock on wood....that transmission is still on the original seals.....its never been apart.

knary
03-09-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by jdiaz
Yeah, I'd never seen the parts looking that good either. What's more amazing is those pictures were taken right after we'd pulled the bike apart.....25K miles and four years since the splines were lubed last time. We didn't have to clean a thing other than the splines. I've never been that lucky before.

I had the clutch basket seal in hand and was prepared to disassemble the clutch, but everything looked great when we pulled it back. And knock on wood....that transmission is still on the original seals.....its never been apart.

Are you saying that you didn't clean that tranny, that it was that nice looking "naturally"??!?!

Admit it, you only ride that bike indoors.

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by knary
Are you saying that you didn't clean that tranny, that it was that nice looking "naturally"??!?!

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Twas a good thing too, since we did two spline lubes that day....

kbasa
03-09-2004, 02:10 AM
Where's all the clutch dust?

Holy cow.

knary
03-09-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by KBasa
Where's all the clutch dust?

Holy cow.

Exactly!
Whenever I pulled my K apart, it was like working in a chimney - blackish clutch dust everywhere.

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by KBasa
Where's all the clutch dust?

Holy cow.
I'm pretty easy on clutches in general, and the K75 has such a low first gear I don't need to slip it very much. The original one I took out of there at 155,000 miles measured out virtually new....I still have it in a plastic baggie.

hankb
03-09-2004, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by jdiaz
Here's what the cut-off bolts should look like:

Wow! Mine did not look like that. In addition to the matte black clutch lining coating, I had a little pile of rubber crumbs and aluminum shavings in the depression above the alternator.

jdiaz
03-09-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by HankB
Wow! Mine did not look like that. In addition to the matte black clutch lining coating, I had a little pile of rubber crumbs and aluminum shavings in the depression above the alternator.
Now you know why I didn't want to come over and work on your bike, Hank. :bliss

hankb
03-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by jdiaz
Now you know why I didn't want to come over and work on your bike, Hank. :bliss

Actually... If you took one look in my garage, you would see why I didn't invite you! :eek

byker
03-29-2004, 09:23 PM
I had the pinion gear, drive shaft end and universal joints repaired/replaced by Brunos Machine and Repair in Kitchener Ontario. A fellow MOA member had written a pictorial article on this subject in the Owners News and had used Bruno for the required service. With 106k kilometers the splines were on their way out. I took the parts to Bruno myself as his shop is 1 hour west of Toronto in Kitchener Ontario and looked over his shop and work in progress. The quality of work is exceptional and prices are very reasonable. Turn around time was 10 days. Bruno is a master toolmaker and has made his own jigs to do the work. The end result, in my opinion, is better than what came from the factory. Greater attention to tolerances and such is what makes Brunos repairs superior to those of others. If you wish to contact Bruno, his number is 519-745-7824

Regards,
Avrom Brown
1987K100RS
71133

BRAHMA
04-11-2004, 04:30 AM
Don-

I have a thread going inquiring about the schedules for servicing the clutch spline and the drive splines on my '85 K100RT. In brief, I'm getting conflicting information that is getting me confused. If you don't mind, could you please answer some quick questions?

1. What is the schedule of service for the clutch spline drive?

2. What is the schedule of service for the rear drive spline?

3. Why didn't you mention the "inner" spline of the driveshaft?

4. Is it true that I can yank (pull, pluck whatever) the driveshaft out once the final drive is removed?

5. If #4 is true, how the heck do I align it and get it back in? I've read there is some circlip or something down in there- how do I get it connected back?

Thanks- I'm desperate for this particular information, and going blind by reading volumes of blogs, threads etc. looking for these particular answers.

Regards-

Dale Dervin

deilenberger
04-11-2004, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by ddervin

Dale wrote me directly.. so here was my email reply to him:



Don-

I have a thread going on BMWOA inquiring about the schedules for servicing the clutch spline and the drive splines on my '85 K100RT. I read a post of yours from a year ago regarding information about spline maintenance. In brief, I'm getting conflicting information that is getting me confused. If you don't mind, could you please answer some quick questions?

1. What is the schedule of service for the clutch spline drive?

On a K100 - once it's done with Moly60 - it's probably good for
20-25,000 miles or more. More on this below..



2. What is the schedule of service for the rear drive spline?

Every tire change.



3. Why didn't you mention the "inner" spline of the driveshaft?

Because it isn't a sliding spline and I've never heard of one
wearing out.



4. Is it true that I can yank (pull, pluck whatever) the driveshaft out once the final drive is removed?

Yes.



5. If #4 is true, how the heck do I align it and get it back in? I've read there is some circlip or something down in there- how do I get it connected back?

To get it out - put a hose clamp on it and pry it out with a big screwdriver against the hose clamp.- don't ding up the swingarm surface.. use some wood to protect it.

Putting it back in is easy - rotate it until it engages the splines then tap it in with a leather mallet (rubber would probably work also). It will seat on the circlip (it's actually a wire ring on the output shaft of the tranny).



Thanks- I'm desperate for this particular information, and going blind by reading volumes of blogs, threads etc. looking for these particular answers.

You didn't mention how many miles you think are on the FYK (it's always a guess since the speedos were almost all repaired or replaced), and if there is any record of a spline lube being done.

That determines when it needs doing. If you've never done it - and don't know if it was ever done - then you DO want to do it.

Once you've done it with the proper lube (Honda Moly60) - then the next time (20-25k miles later) you'll get an idea of how frequently it needs to be done.

The rear drive needs doing at 10,000 miles or every tire change, whichever comes first. And the inner driveshaft spline never really needs doing.. but if you really want to make sure - do it once with the moly grease and then forgetaboutit.



Regards-
Dale Dervin

BRAHMA
04-11-2004, 02:13 PM
Don-

Thanks for the reply. I'll post here instead of email you directly for the benefit of others.

My bike has 81,900+ miles on it, and I have kept meticulous records on it for the past 17 years that I have owned it. I'm the second owner, but it only had 2718 miles on it when I bought it as a bank repo in 1987.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "FYK", but I have religiously had the clutch spline lubed every 10,000 miles. Since I have lately started to get confused by dealers, I haven' t had the clutch spline lubed since about 13,000 miles ago by a dealer in southern Ohio I trust. My confusion from varying dealers about the maintenance schedule for this service is why I am looking for "definitive" answers about this.

However, I am not sure about if the folks ever did the rear drive splines at the same time, because they never asked me if I wanted it done, and I never asked them to do it because I always thought it was the clutch spline that was the big thing to do- I never new about the drive splines!

Yikes!

However, four years and about 9000 miles ago ( I don't ride it all the time anymore, I love it so much I'm trying more to "preserve" it throughout my lifetime!) the bearings in my final drive blew (don't know the cause of that because I ALWAYS replace the gear oil in it at the start of every "season" every year), and when I personally replaced the final drive, I greased that rear drive spline, because my basic knowledge of mechanical stuff told me it was "the thing to do". I remember clearly it already had what I thought was a "decent" amount of grease on it, but I cleaned both the spline and the "female", part of the new final drive, and greased them both. I used fresh "regular" grease I had lying around, which is definately not Honda Moly60.

I will immediately pull the final drive, find some Honda Moly60, and clean and grease everything again.
-------------

To clarify, I'd like to reiterate what you are telling me for you to verify I have this right.

1. Find and buy HondaMoly60 (probably at a Honda dealer- duh...), and pull the final drive and clean and grease the rear drive spline. You recommend this should be done every 10,000 miles.

2. Alternatively, the shaft could be pryed out in it's entirety, both spline ends cleaned and greased with Honda Moly60, and put back in by rotating and aligning, and whacking it back in with a leather (or rubber?) mallet. Again, you recommend this entire service is to be done every 10,000 miles (and sounds easy enough for me to do).

3. You recommend the clutch spline be lubed every 20,000 to 25,000 miles with Honda Moly60. This I REALLY, REALLY WISH I could do myself, but I just don't have the setup to hold the bike up. I HATE having to pay around $375.00 to get it done, and would MUCH rather do it myself so I KNOW it's done right (paranoid), but I think it's out of my personal mechanical and tool ability.
----------------
I have one more question;

There is a "weep" hole on the bottom of the tranny that gets about 6 or 8 drops of oil out of it now on every ride.

1. Is this a "main seal" between the trans and engine that is letting loose?

2. Could it be replaced during a clutch spline lube since the trans would be out? I realize the clutch would have to be disassembled, but hey, having it torn down that far already might help.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

DSD

deilenberger
04-11-2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by ddervin
Don-

Thanks for the reply. I'll post here instead of email you directly for the benefit of others.

My bike has 81,900+ miles on it, and I have kept meticulous records on it for the past 17 years that I have owned it. I'm the second owner, but it only had 2718 miles on it when I bought it as a bank repo in 1987.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "FYK", but I have religiously had the clutch spline lubed every 10,000 miles. Since I have lately started to get confused by dealers, I haven' t had the clutch spline lubed since about 13,000 miles ago by a dealer in southern Ohio I trust. My confusion from varying dealers about the maintenance schedule for this service is why I am looking for "definitive" answers about this.

However, I am not sure about if the folks ever did the rear drive splines at the same time, because they never asked me if I wanted it done, and I never asked them to do it because I always thought it was the clutch spline that was the big thing to do- I never new about the drive splines!

Yikes!

However, four years and about 9000 miles ago ( I don't ride it all the time anymore, I love it so much I'm trying more to "preserve" it throughout my lifetime!) the bearings in my final drive blew (don't know the cause of that because I ALWAYS replace the gear oil in it at the start of every "season" every year), and when I personally replaced the final drive, I greased that rear drive spline, because my basic knowledge of mechanical stuff told me it was "the thing to do". I remember clearly it already had what I thought was a "decent" amount of grease on it, but I cleaned both the spline and the "female", part of the new final drive, and greased them both. I used fresh "regular" grease I had lying around, which is definately not Honda Moly60.

I will immediately pull the final drive, find some Honda Moly60, and clean and grease everything again.
-------------

To clarify, I'd like to reiterate what you are telling me for you to verify I have this right.

1. Find and buy HondaMoly60 (probably at a Honda dealer- duh...), and pull the final drive and clean and grease the rear drive spline. You recommend this should be done every 10,000 miles.


Correct.


2. Alternatively, the shaft could be pryed out in it's entirety, both spline ends cleaned and greased with Honda Moly60, and put back in by rotating and aligning, and whacking it back in with a leather (or rubber?) mallet. Again, you recommend this entire service is to be done every 10,000 miles (and sounds easy enough for me to do).

Correct again - although doing the front really isn't necessary, do it so you know it's done. Then forgettaboutit.



3. You recommend the clutch spline be lubed every 20,000 to 25,000 miles with Honda Moly60. This I REALLY, REALLY WISH I could do myself, but I just don't have the setup to hold the bike up. I HATE having to pay around $375.00 to get it done, and would MUCH rather do it myself so I KNOW it's done right (paranoid), but I think it's out of my personal mechanical and tool ability.

Correct again. Since we don't know what grease the dealer used - I'd suggest getting it done. Most dealers are still using up their stock of BMW#10 grease - which IMHO (and that of a lot of other people) was a mistake on the part of BMW (there is a lot more to the story.. but I won't bring it here..)



----------------
I have one more question;

There is a "weep" hole on the bottom of the tranny that gets about 6 or 8 drops of oil out of it now on every ride.

1. Is this a "main seal" between the trans and engine that is letting loose?

It's usually the rubber O ring under the nut on the clutch basket. Usually when that is replaced - since you're almost there - people replace the main engine seal. Might add $100 to the bill for the dealer to do it... it doesn't take all that long when it's apart.



2. Could it be replaced during a clutch spline lube since the trans would be out? I realize the clutch would have to be disassembled, but hey, having it torn down that far already might help.

Yes - see above



THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

DSD

BRAHMA
04-11-2004, 03:18 PM
All points duly noted.

Thanks! Again!

Dale

BRAHMA
04-12-2004, 01:06 PM
In the interest of servicing the drive splines, I've heard that pulling the shaft to get to the inner drive spline and the subsequent replacement of the shaft by pounding it back in to get the circlip to seat may not be the proper thing to do. My understanding now is that BMW recommends a replacement circlip as part of any removal procedure, which means the swingarm needs to be dismantled to get to it.

I am really trying to work on this bike using the best and most highly recommended methods possible.

Would someone like to comment on this procedure?

Thanks-

Dale Dervin

deilenberger
04-12-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by ddervin

In the interest of servicing the drive splines, I've heard that pulling the shaft to get to the inner drive spline and the subsequent replacement of the shaft by pounding it back in to get the circlip to seat may not be the proper thing to do. My understanding now is that BMW recommends a replacement circlip as part of any removal procedure, which means the swingarm needs to be dismantled to get to it.

I am really trying to work on this bike using the best and most highly recommended methods possible.

Would someone like to comment on this procedure?

Thanks-

Dale Dervin

I have NEVER heard of this recommendation and it is in no manual that I have (and I have them all).

Where exactly did you get this recommendation?

I can see no reason why reusing the wire ring that holds the shaft in place would be ANY different than replacing it.. unless you're a hamfisted klutz who boogers (tech-term) up the ring trying to reseat the driveshaft.

My suggestion to you once more would be IGNORE the inner driveshaft splines. I have never heard of them causing anyone any problems.

And I think that's my last reply on the subject. By now you should have some idea of what has to be done and if you're capable of doing it. I'd suggest reading the IBMWR K-tech-FAQ's and your manuals.

BRAHMA
04-12-2004, 02:16 PM
Yikes!

Don-

I'm just trying to get all the information that I can. My entire reason for posting to this forum is because I was, and continue to get, conflicting information. I appreciate the information you relayed to me and the forum.

As part of performing due diligence in researching this subject, one I haven't ever personally performed, I used not only this forum, but others as well. Frankly, it was refreshing to find that all the sources I polled agreed on all points, with the exception of the reinstallation of the shaft. I was told the following by someone I have no reason to suspect has less experience than anyone else on the subject, and all certainly have more than me;

---------------
Quote:

"Regarding the circlip question.....There were some variations in shaft design in the K models over the years. Your model may or may not have the locking circlip at the transmission end of the drive shaft. Yours should but may not. The later ones definately did. What you can do, is merely pull the rear drive first. Then try yanking on the drive shaft. If it comes out easily then there is no circlip. And when you do get it out, look in the splined area of the front of the shaft and see if there is a circlip groove.

If it offers a fight coming out, don't force it. Instead you must first pull the swing arm completely off. Then up at the front of the shaft hidden in the splined section is an internal circlip that locks the trans shaft to the spline on the drive shaft. You can then with the housing off, pry your way into the circlip area and undo its lock, then slide the shaft off the tranny. The shop manual insists on a new circlip upon refitting but you might be able to get by with the original if you reshape it to lock into the splined area before it all goes together.

Upon refitting, the reverse is the procedure. Put paste on the trans shaft spline. Then put the swing arm back on. Then coat the spline on the drive shaft and slide the shaft into the housing and onto the tranny shaft. Push it until you hear and feel the CLICK of the snap ring locking itself into the groove. The rest of the work is at the rear.

You really should have a BMW shop manual as there are a lot of other considerations to manage. The aftermarket manuals and piecemeal advice will get you into a ****house full of trouble. Toss all the aftermarket stuff. Most of it is far too generic and broad coverage, with very misleading procedures. You need the guidance for your particular vintage. And even then the BMW shop manuals may vary somewhat. You have to use good judgement along with hopefully correct shop procedures.
"
End Quote
----------------------

Again Don, as an amatuer, I am looking for the CORRECT procedures and as much detailed information I can find. I can't afford to be stuck in my puny garage with a driveshaft on the floor. Without owning a shop manual myself, and without personal experience, I turn to experienced people like yourself, as well as others, in any forum I can find. BMWMOA provides this forum for exchange of this information, and I am very appreciative in its availability.

All opinions are very appreciated, and no obligation from anyone is implied.


Regards-

DSD

deilenberger
04-12-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by ddervin
Yikes!

Don-

I'm just trying to get all the information that I can. My entire reason for posting to this forum is because I was, and continue to get, conflicting information. I appreciate the information you relayed to me and the forum.


Big snippage



You really should have a BMW shop manual as there are a lot of other considerations to manage. The aftermarket manuals and piecemeal advice will get you into a ****house full of trouble. Toss all the aftermarket stuff. Most of it is far too generic and broad coverage, with very misleading procedures. You need the guidance for your particular vintage. And even then the BMW shop manuals may vary somewhat. You have to use good judgement along with hopefully correct shop procedures.
"
End Quote
----------------------

Again Don, as an amatuer, I am looking for the CORRECT procedures and as much detailed information I can find. I can't afford to be stuck in my puny garage with a driveshaft on the floor. Without owning a shop manual myself, and without personal experience, I turn to experienced people like yourself, as well as others, in any forum I can find. BMWMOA provides this forum for exchange of this information, and I am very appreciative in its availability.

All opinions are very appreciated, and no obligation from anyone is implied.

Regards-

DSD

Yes - but the other reply made a point I was trying to - if you don't have a manual - and preferrably ALL the manuals available for the K 2 valve series - you are going to find yourself lost.

Compared to the expense of having one clutch spline lube done by a dealer - the manuals are cheap.

As the other poster noted - the aftermarket manuals aren't always accurate (there are some errors in each of them that I've seen) - but I'll disgree a bit here.. the factory manual is written for a trained skilled mechanic who has probably also taken the BMW training on the bike in question. It is NOT written for a home mechanic. The aftermarket manuals are - and are much better illustrated than the factory manual, and in some cases give alternate tools to the factory tools, and alternate techniques.

What you should do is plan the project with the aftermarket manuals, then check them against the factory manual for any errors such as torque values.

Using this forum - which is done entirely by volunteers - as a primary source of information isn't a good idea. You don't know me from Adam, and I could be (and have been accused of being) a complete bozo who doesn't know a wrench from a screwdriver.

The other thing that worries me is you're seeking confirmation of things that are covered in the IBMWR K-tech FAQ's (some of which I wrote), and have been covered here in this same thread prior to your message. You are getting conflicting answers which obviously are confusing you, so you're asking to do the job by a concensus. The detail level of your questions are wonderful, but not questions I would expect of someone familiar with work on this level... so not slamming you - Do you feel confident in tackling this job?

If not - then a dealer or a friend who has done it already is what you should be seeking.

BTW - if I remember correctly - this is an '85 K bike you're talking about? The problem the other poster mentioned with manual removal of a circlip doesn't exist on an '85 K.. I am intimately familar with that year and had the transmission out numerous times and the driveshaft off several times. It's not a problem..
he may be referring to paralever bikes - I've never seen or heard of that problem or design on monolever bikes.

And if you remember my other advice - you can safely IGNORE the inner driveshaft spline. It isn't going to wear, it doesn't give trouble, and it's extra work for no gain. The problem spline on the '85 K bike is the rear driveshaft to rear-drive spline (and to a lesser extent - the clutch splines). Those are the ones I'd direct my attention to.

knary
04-12-2004, 03:50 PM
Don speaketh the truth.

kbasa
04-12-2004, 04:26 PM
You can trust Don. I've done a few Kbike spline lubes using the instructions he put together over on the IBMWR site.

Mudbug
04-16-2004, 06:20 PM
I bought a 1991 K100RS in February. Great bike, well cared for by previous owner(s). Compared to what I was riding, it handles great and has plenty of power.

After a couple of months enjoying it and riding it, I finally read the "Rider's Manual" and "Service History". On page 23, under Periodic Maintenance, K-Models, it states, " Clutch splines/Input shaft - This vital area must be lubricated once a year. If vehicle is used in coastal areas or other high humidity areas this service must be performed bi-annually."

I thought I would pass that on....

BRAHMA
04-16-2004, 06:29 PM
Thanks Robert. I gues maybe I should have looked in mine too! I have mine aqll sealed up in plastic and boxed away. out of sight, out of mind...

DSD

deilenberger
04-16-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by ddervin
Thanks Robert. I gues maybe I should have looked in mine too! I have mine aqll sealed up in plastic and boxed away. out of sight, out of mind...

DSD

That recommendation was a reaction to some early spline failures on K bikes - in particular the K75's.. (for a reason that is a quite long story - but lubing them just put off failure of the splines for a while). If you look at the earlier owners manuals - there is no recommendation for lubing the clutch splines.

IF you use the Honda Moly60 - I would suggest (not recommend) that you do one spline lube - then if you're REALLY worried, do another one in 10,000 miles. I suspect you'll find the lube is still there doing it's job. Then do another one in another 20,000 miles.. and bet you'll see the same thing. I've lengthened my interval to 30k miles now. And bet I'll find the lube just fine at +30k.

IF you use the BMW #10 - then I'd say to do it at LEAST once a year.

Dunno on the new stuff they're selling. I suspect it might be quite good, but don't have any personal experience with it.

Best,

BRAHMA
04-17-2004, 12:46 AM
I'm now a proud owner of a mini-tube of Honda Moly60!

I did the rear drive spline, but skipped pulling the shaft- your recommendation, plus I'm a mech-wuss! Also changed the brake fluids, the rear drive and trans oil, and the fork oil. First time I've done my fork oil by myself for awhile- I'd like to get my hands on the HACKS that I PAID that used channel locks and chewed up the top plug area. That was an unpleasant discovery yesterday. I spent a whole $13 on a 7/8 wrench that those @#$%% should have used.

Took digi pics of the rear splines after total cleanup. The flash didn't really light the whole spline up, but they give a pretty good depiction of what is going on in there. I think the splines look pretty good. There is one little nick on one of the splines inside the shaft, but frankly, after all the talk, I thought it would be worse.

Went for a cruise last night, and I'm a little frought with the downshifting- the clutch splines definately need lubed. It's been 13k miles and 5 years since it's been done (told you I haven't ridden much). I can finesse the down shifts, which I suppose I should be doing anyway, but 2nd gear is a pretty bad complainer and it didn't used to be.... At least I am progressing with the service.

I've had an offer for workspace and assistance with the clutch spline, and main seal/o-ring change while I have it that far apart, and am going to work on that ASAP... I'm wondering if I should invest in a new clutch disk while I have it apart- why not?

DSD

deilenberger
04-17-2004, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by ddervin
I'm now a proud owner of a mini-tube of Honda Moly60!

Cool!



I did the rear drive spline, but skipped pulling the shaft- your recommendation, plus I'm a mech-wuss! Also changed the brake fluids, the rear drive and trans oil, and the fork oil. First time I've done my fork oil by myself for awhile- I'd like to get my hands on the HACKS that I PAID that used channel locks and chewed up the top plug area. That was an unpleasant discovery yesterday. I spent a whole $13 on a 7/8 wrench that those @#$%% should have used.

Took digi pics of the rear splines after total cleanup. The flash didn't really light the whole spline up, but they give a pretty good depiction of what is going on in there. I think the splines look pretty good. There is one little nick on one of the splines inside the shaft, but frankly, after all the talk, I thought it would be worse.

If you'd like to email me the photos - see my sig - I can take a look at the splines perhaps. It can be a bit tricky "reading" them until you really know what to look for..


Went for a cruise last night, and I'm a little frought with the downshifting- the clutch splines definately need lubed. It's been 13k miles and 5 years since it's been done (told you I haven't ridden much). I can finesse the down shifts, which I suppose I should be doing anyway, but 2nd gear is a pretty bad complainer and it didn't used to be.... At least I am progressing with the service.

I've had an offer for workspace and assistance with the clutch spline, and main seal/o-ring change while I have it that far apart, and am going to work on that ASAP... I'm wondering if I should invest in a new clutch disk while I have it apart- why not?
DSD

Good that you have an offer of help - is it someone who has BTDT?

As far as a new clutch disk - IMHO - waste of money. Never known anyone to actually wear one out on a K bike. In all likelyhood it will LOOK worn - (the rivet heads are very close to the disk surface) - but measurement will show it's fine for lots more miles. Your call - but it isn't something I'd just do for the sake of doing it.

One hint - before taking anything apart in the clutch - mark each piece in relation to the other pieces (not the diaphram spring or the disk..) the basket, pressure plate and cover with a centerpunch. The factory markings are probably VERY faint by now, and I can promise you - they'll disappear by the time you're done cleaning things off. Centerpunched marks will never disappear.

Am I correct in guessing that you have read the IBMWR tech-FAQ's on spline lubes? Lots of good hints there that will make the job go faster and easier.

Oh - 2nd hint - you'll have to get the clutch basket off to replace the seal, and the big nut on it has to come off anyway even just to replace the O ring. To lock the clutch basket when loosening the nut or tightening it- most manuals show a special tool. My special tool was a hammer handle stuck through one of the holes in the back of the basket against one of the cast webs in the intermediate housing.

Best,

byker
06-23-2004, 05:18 PM
I have used the services of Bruno's Machine Shop in Kitchener Ontario. He rebuilt the final drive, replace the seals in the final drive, rebuilt the female end of the drive shaft with new universal joints for $475.00 Canadian. I have logged over 10,000 km. since the rebuild and everything is great. I highly recommed this shop.

tinman
02-18-2005, 01:17 AM
Alright folks, new K (well the motorcycle and I are both old) bike owner, 88 K75C actually, with a question...

Any reason not to use aerosol brake/part cleaner for spline shaft cleaning prior to the moly-60 application?

Thanks,
tinman

roy
02-18-2005, 01:26 PM
Yes - but the other reply made a point I was trying to - if you don't have a manual - and preferrably ALL the manuals available for the K 2 valve series - you are going to find yourself lost.

Compared to the expense of having one clutch spline lube done by a dealer - the manuals are cheap.

As the other poster noted - the aftermarket manuals aren't always accurate (there are some errors in each of them that I've seen) - but I'll disgree a bit here.. the factory manual is written for a trained skilled mechanic who has probably also taken the BMW training on the bike in question. It is NOT written for a home mechanic. The aftermarket manuals are - and are much better illustrated than the factory manual, and in some cases give alternate tools to the factory tools, and alternate techniques.

What you should do is plan the project with the aftermarket manuals, then check them against the factory manual for any errors such as torque values.

.


Don
thanks for the heads-up on the Hayes & Clymer manual. :thumb I have spent a lot of time this winter reading through them and yes this did seem kind of vague. Guess it off to the dealer to see when and if they can still get manuals for the FYK.

deilenberger
02-18-2005, 06:06 PM
Alright folks, new K (well the motorcycle and I are both old) bike owner, 88 K75C actually, with a question...

Any reason not to use aerosol brake/part cleaner for spline shaft cleaning prior to the moly-60 application?

Thanks,
tinman

The only reasons not to are:

1. On the transmission splines - there is the input shaft seal right past the splines and I'd rather not have cleaner possibly attack it.

2. On the disk side - not a problem as long as you keep it and the residue from the old grease off the friction surfaces.

What I've done for the tranny input shaft is: clean it off with a rag as well as I can; get a clean rag, spray the parts cleaner on the rag and try to get the rest off. If the former grease was BMW #10 - it's likely there is none left anyway.

Best,

tinman
02-18-2005, 09:53 PM
Thanks, Don.

I was gonna tune it up, change fluids, and lube the driveshaft splines tomorrow; but, Mother Nature isn't going to heat my garage very well. 35F and drafty to boot.
:brow
Does the '88 K75C have the standard or sport forks? Would you have the volumn of 7.5wt for the forks?

tim

deilenberger
02-21-2005, 05:08 PM
Thanks, Don.

Does the '88 K75C have the standard or sport forks? Would you have the volumn of 7.5wt for the forks?

tim

Mebbe, mebbe not. They were standard on the S starting from the start, and I'm not sure when they moved to the other models. In general (which means there may be an exception or two) if:

1. You have an "S" stamped into the top of the fork cap - you have sport forks..

2. If you have the factory cross-brace and 2 piece fender - you have sport forks..

But I'm sure there are exceptions to #2. And my bike is the exception to #1 - it has sport forks (I've had them apart) but no "S" stamped into the top of the fork caps, I assume because ALL "S" models got the sport forks.

Go figure.. :confused:

Best bet - first go look at the K-tech pages on www.ibmwr.org and see the oil capacities, then when you drain the old oil - measure the amount. Put the same amount back in.

HTH,

tinman
02-24-2005, 10:51 PM
Thanks, Don. It's gonna have to wait, anywho. Would you believe the local BMW dealer had no 7.5 wt?? It's ordered!!

Of course, we're so far back in the hills we don't get Monday Night Football 'til Tuesday night!

tinman
03-06-2005, 11:54 PM
What a day. :twirl

Pulled the final drive, lubed splines on driveshaft, installed bar backs, re-wired heated grips, rode on the BRParkway for a brief while, gorgeous, snow melting and 50&deg;. I can't wait 'til spring!

What a day. :clap :wow

eric2
03-07-2005, 03:23 PM
I'm in the middle of my first spline lube and hope
to do yet another write-up with lots of pics.

Bike is 89 k100rs se with 84k. I know
the PO, and its doubtful he did any spline lubes
but who knows? Anyway, the rear splines are close
to pristine and the tranny splines have only
slight wear shown in this gigantic pic (http://eric2.smugmug.com/photos/17000599-O.jpg)
Splines still had grease but not the white stuff my FYK had.

My guesstimate is only 10 % worn, anyway,
just another datapoint. I'm also replacing
all the seals in there.

Thx

Eric
Austin