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SilverRT
06-14-2007, 03:19 AM
+1, I've felt no shutter with my rear brake after 3,000 miles. I agree, take it back and ask the dealer to fix it.

johnv
06-14-2007, 12:12 PM
I've owned my 07 R1200RT for about 6 weeks now. I've noticed a slight vibration at the rear brake pedal every once in a while. It lasts for a second or two. I'm not too worried about it. The brakes are great.

Johnv

deilenberger
06-14-2007, 02:25 PM
This sort of begs the question - aside from trail-braking - since you have linked brakes - why are you using the rear brake?

I've found the linked brakes SO good that I basically ignore the rear brake except on hard low speed corners, and for hill-holding. The rear brake IS being applied by the link system since the dust accumulation on the rear wheel is actually greater than the front wheel..

A bit of pulsing might be some pad deposits on the rotor that will wear off with some enthusiastic braking - but I'd expect to feel that as a shudder when you get to almost stopped speed.

johnv
06-14-2007, 02:57 PM
>This sort of begs the question - aside from trail-braking - since you have linked >brakes - why are you using the rear brake?

I continue to use the rear brake so I stay accustomed to using both brakes. Old habits die hard I guess. I just feel more comfortable stopping with my foot on the rear brake too. Who knows, my next bike may not have linked brakes.

Johnv

ggfossen
06-15-2007, 12:35 AM
Hmmm, might depend on who's braking on pavement, and who's braking on dirt.

On pavement, with my '07 RT, no shudder. If I foolishly stab the rear brake descending down my driveway, the ABS actives, and it shudders....as it should. My drive is pretty much fine dust 'cause I've been running the cat up and down it to a "project," and all the gravel is gone.

No ABS with only the rear brake on pavement.

GAry

maxfrankel
06-15-2007, 02:31 PM
A shudder absent the ABS engaging is the telltale sign of a warped rotor. That's a warranty issue!

Tom K.
06-15-2007, 04:30 PM
>This sort of begs the question - aside from trail-braking - since you have linked >brakes - why are you using the rear brake?

I continue to use the rear brake so I stay accustomed to using both brakes. Old habits die hard I guess. I just feel more comfortable stopping with my foot on the rear brake too. Who knows, my next bike may not have linked brakes.
Johnv

You may wish to rethink this as deilenberger has a good point. Under most circumstances, you need more front braking force than rear - and the BMW system computes that when only the lever is used. I'd be very nervous about your technique in an emergency as you will not be utilizing the bike's full braking ability. In addition, use of the rear pedal along with (or instead of) the lever will promote unusually rapid rear pad wear.

While some controls are standarized across makes, many aren't. GoldWing riders have to primarily use the pedal as that links one of the front discs with the rear and new BMW riders need to learn to use the lever. Remember the days when Harley's shift pattern was reversed from most other bikes and Kawasaki had neutral below first? And what about turn signal controls on your BMW?

Tom

johnv
06-15-2007, 05:08 PM
You may wish to rethink this as deilenberger has a good point. Under most circumstances, you need more front braking force than rear - and the BMW system computes that when only the lever is used. I'd be very nervous about your technique in an emergency as you will not be utilizing the bike's full braking ability. In addition, use of the rear pedal along with (or instead of) the lever will promote unusually rapid rear pad wear.


Tom

Tom

I'm not disagreeing with you or Don here. You may be correct. I have a question: If the brake system is set up to give maximum braking force with the lever, then wouldn't the lever override the brake pedal when both brakes are applied?

Tom K.
06-15-2007, 10:06 PM
Tom

I'm not disagreeing with you or Don here. You may be correct. I have a question: If the brake system is set up to give maximum braking force with the lever, then wouldn't the lever override the brake pedal when both brakes are applied?

One would think so, John. But I read in another forum that using the rear brake pedal with the lever simply adds additional rear braking and therefore alters the computed F-R balance. Unfortunately, while the owner's manual seems to imply this, it's not at all clear. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge than I can give us the correct info, one way or another.

Tom

deilenberger
06-15-2007, 11:55 PM
I believe Tom is correct. I can certainly add more braking power by stomping on the rear brake when braking - you can feel it. But - IMHO - it's not optimal braking since that throws it out of balance - which is what the linked brake does so well.

As Tom pointed out - you do have to learn how to ride specific bikes.. I once owned a brit bike and a Japanese one at the same time. Not only different shift patterns - but different sides for the brake/shift functions. That was dangerous.. so I try to learn the optimal way to use the controls on the bike I'm now riding.

I grew up in the era when "everyone knew" you'd simply lock the front wheel and fall down if you braked hard with the front lever - so everyone overused the rear and underused the front. It took time to break myself of that bad habit - and I'm finally eliminating the final remnant of learned-reaction with the linked brakes.. I now only use the rear brake for slow speed turns or to hill-hold. In this case I'm happy to rely on a computer doing the balancing for me and know I can grab a bunch of front lever and get the best braking for the situation.

Tom K.
06-16-2007, 12:48 AM
I grew up in the era when "everyone knew" you'd simply lock the front wheel and fall down if you braked hard with the front lever - so everyone overused the rear and underused the front.

Don, when I bought my first GoldWing with linked brakes, I was told they had the pedal link the rear to one of the front discs because new riders were being advised not to brake hard with the front lever for another reason - it would cause a rear over front endo!!
Tom

karasek
08-06-2007, 01:46 AM
I've noticed any 2007 with IABS2 will have a very slight pulsing in the rear brake under certain braking conditions not involving wheel lock up. It is normal and is most likely due to the integration feature.

Try this. At a slower speed apply the front and rear brakes lightly. Then gradually increase the pressure on the rear brake while keeping the front brake consistent. You should feel a slight pulsing in the brake pedal.

Most likely due to valves shutting and closing since you are now applying more pressure to the rear brake and the pump isn't needed for any integral build up of brake pressure.

Your going to cause yourself and your dealer a lot of grief :fight if you try and have this "fixed" as nothing is wrong.

greenwald
08-07-2007, 01:46 PM
With nearly 18,000 miles on my two-year-old R1200RT, I agree with previous postings: any rear-brake shuddering is abnormal, and should be addressed by a service visit, as it is a warranty issue.

What I don't agree with is the plethora of braking advice once again rearing it's ugly head.

As a Nationally Certified Motor Officer and MSF RiderCoach, the cavalier attitude and homespun advice being dispensed on 'proper braking' is neither encouraging nor safe.

While automotive fatalities are actually DOWN 2% as of last year, we are in the NINTH year in a row that motorcycle fatalities are up. This does not speak well for how we are managing our risks as bikers.

Aside from the 'alcohol factor' (and whose fault is that?!), we as a traffic demographic are either perishing in collisons we should have suspected, or are simply killing ourselves in curves sans any other vehicle involved.

We practice poor riding techniques based on 'personal success' (aka 'luck'), tales handed down by Dad or Grandpa, habits we rationalize to death so we don't feel guilty doing it that way, etc. etc.

The only proper braking is to use BOTH brakes every time you wish to slow or stop (dirt riding a different animal - apologies to all GS riders), and all four fingers on that front brake lever. It's also easier on the brake components and oftens results in consistent wear on both tires.

While we're at it, we could also benefit from more head-checks than mirror checks, dumping our speed and setting up for an outside entry every time we approach a curve, and last but not least, ATGATT.

ATGATT - All The Gear, All The Time! That translates into arms and legs completely covered, gloves, over-the-ankle footwear, a helmet, and eye protection above and beyond a windshield.

You'll enjoy motorcycling more if you survive it.

Ride ATGATT and Alert!

deilenberger
08-07-2007, 02:57 PM
The only proper braking is to use BOTH brakes every time you wish to slow or stop (dirt riding a different animal - apologies to all GS riders), and all four fingers on that front brake lever. It's also easier on the brake components and oftens results in consistent wear on both tires.I'll have to slightly disagree with you here.

On a linked brake system - the system itself is capable of knowing what the weight transfer (which directly effects brake traction) is (much better than I possibly could) especially under emergency conditions and adjusts the front/rear braking force accordingly to provide the best possible brake traction.

The BMW R1200R system is semi-linked. I'm not sure what your two year old RT has - it does have linked brakes and servo assisted brakes for sure, but it may be fully linked (either brake control activates both brakes) - I know the R1150RT was fully-linked.

On the semi-linked system - the front brake does both, rear brake does rear only.

It appears to be work extremely well and is effective at actually using both when only the front lever is applied since my rear wheel gets lots more brake dust than my front wheel does, and aside from using the rear brake a bit for trail-braking on sharp low speed corners - I rarely touch the rear brake pedal.

The linked brake system DOES what you suggest - uses both brakes - in a manner to provide the most rapid deceleration possible. I don't think using the rear brake in addition to the linked brake action will provide repeatable shorter stops, and that's what I'm interested in - a controlled shortest distance possible stop - when I need it.

BTW - I'm curious - what is a "Nationally Certified Motor Officer" and who does the certification?

henzilla
08-07-2007, 03:18 PM
the '05's have semi linked assisted WIZZY brakes...the rear does rear only!

I ride several versions...ABS,Non-ABS, Disc,drum,linked, non linked...each one behaves diff and I always use both...old school/old habits. I know the RT will stop on a dime one fingering it...but my mind makes the right foot move EVERY time. And switching bikes and being in a one finger does it all mindset can be hazardous to ones health in my little world.

ggfossen
08-07-2007, 04:08 PM
Hmmm...good points by all. I, too, tend to jump on both brakes, but I fear that I will break (or brake) out of the habit. I say "fear" because the old R80 continues to sit beside the new RT. I plan to ride it more. I may not brake properly.

I am assuming, and anyone can jump in and correct me, that the new bikes with linked brakes and ABS will initiate the ABS independantly on front or rear? That being the case, using both brakes on a new linked system won't cause the problem of locking the rear?

When descending my gravel driveway, if I use the rear in conjuntion with the front, the rear ABS seems to engage apart from the front. Am I right?

Maybe some old habits should not be broken (or braked) too quickly??

Gary

henzilla
08-07-2007, 04:19 PM
I still recall watching MANY riders go down in gravel parking lots grabbing a front brake, so I use back only when whoa-ing down in those situations... I stay OFF the fronts on any bike in gravel:gerg I have a lot to learn on the GS...when do I turn the ABS off and such

My understanding is the ABS circuits are seperate dependent on that particular wheels traction...or else it seems would compound problems if one is NOT slipping and started pulsing:dunno

Have played with the RT in a huge empty parking lot and never got a skid...using any combo of braking

hass
08-07-2007, 04:36 PM
I have a R1200R.

I have a shudder in the rear brake pedal when braking from slower speeds which I have noticed occurs in 2nd gear. I will mention this at my 1000km service and see what they say.

greenwald
08-07-2007, 06:58 PM
Sorry it took so long, but I had to wade thru all the inevitable rationalizations of "why I brake the way I do, and nobody is going to tell me different" disclaimers.

To attain National Certification as a Police Motor Officer, I flew out to Cleveland, OH in 2000 for an intense two-week training course established by Northwestern University (IL) School of Public Safety and Harley-Davidson.

Two grueling weeks of maneuvering thru cones, picking up the Road King about 20-25 times a day, high speed braking, keyholes with not one but three bikes inside an 18' circle at one time, formation drills, tons of low speed manuvers, riding thru sand and woodland and too much more to cover in a single posting.

Then, you spend two days testing (including a written exam) which involves 11 different skills tests. Absolute perfection required (knock a cone down and you flunked that test) to pass. You are allowed one re-test, should you fail to complete a skill, but here's the bummer: must repeat the entire Skills Test Cycle of 11 Exams - not just the one you blew.

100% passing rate for a class rare - didn't happen in my group. One broke three bones in his ankle; another carted off by ambulance after launching himself over handlbars.

Learned braking and maneuvering skills taught no where else (Not even on Mr. Paladino's "Ride Like A Pro" videos). Combined with RiderCoach certification by MSF, I must admit, I have some pretty strong opinions as to what constitutes proper braking habits.

Ah, but there lies the rub - old habits die hard, if they die at all.

Ride ATGATT & Alert!

deilenberger
08-07-2007, 08:00 PM
Sorry it took so long, but I had to wade thru all the inevitable rationalizations of "why I brake the way I do, and nobody is going to tell me different" disclaimers.
I don't think you can exclude yourself from this category.. :) Not that you're not a wonderful rider - but you also are telling people how to brake and why.. and I detect a "nobody is going to tell me different" in the background somewhere here.

To attain National Certification as a Police Motor Officer, I flew out to Cleveland, OH in 2000 for an intense two-week training course established by Northwestern University (IL) School of Public Safety and Harley-Davidson.

Snippage..
Learned braking and maneuvering skills taught no where else (Not even on Mr. Paladino's "Ride Like A Pro" videos). Combined with RiderCoach certification by MSF, I must admit, I have some pretty strong opinions as to what constitutes proper braking habits.

Ah, but there lies the rub - old habits die hard, if they die at all.

Ride ATGATT & Alert!Indeed old habits do die hard, as do habits learned on older and different equipment.

Question - was the braking taught on bikes equipped with linked brakes and ABS?

If not - do you think what you learned applies directly to bikes with linked brakes and ABS?

The skills you learned are undoubtably excellent ones - but the point I'm trying to make is - the computer smarts BMW has built into a lot of their bikes brake systems does much of what you learned to do manually - automatically. Helps those less skilled then you to live through emergency situations.

Using both brakes is a "good thing" that we can agree on. Linked brakes make it impossible to do much else IF you use the front brake lever.

Braking to threshold is a good thing - but how many riders have the time or opportunity to attend a course as intensive as you did? For those riders who don't - I am of the opinion that BMWs linked brakes combined with ABS makes them safer riders.

It isn't at all clear to me that having them continue to also apply more rear brake using the brake pedal on a linked brake system during emergency stops is going to improve on the logic BMW built into the brake systems. It might be an interesting experiment to try though.

YMMV or Your Braking May Vary (YBMV)... keep the rubber side down.

greenwald
08-08-2007, 06:11 AM
Ninth year in a row that we, as a traffic demographic, are dying in record numbers.

But still we rally against even a whisper of mandatory helmet laws, consider plugging our tires a permanent fix, and rationalize a plethora of braking habits.

Pogo had it right: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Granted, I have benefitted from a unique learning curve when it comes to rider training, but I chose to channel that knowledge into teaching new riders that operating a motorcycle is not a game of "anything goes," but rather embracing proven techniques when it comes to paths of travel, negotiating curves and braking skills.

Perhaps the next generation of young riders will not view braking as a menu from which to select 'styles,' but adhere to developing good motor memory by always using combination braking, regardless of the system engineered into their ride.

easy
08-08-2007, 11:45 AM
Getting back to the question.... It is not normal.

Make sure you have it documented in writing. If the dealer will not fix it, call the number in the booklet and attempt to have BMW resolve the issue.

Motorcycle owners and dealers are joined by their love of the bike and their differing definitions of the word "normal."

Any day now, I expect to read a post where a dealer thinks it is "normal" for an engine to fall off a bike.

Easy :german

deilenberger
08-08-2007, 12:50 PM
Ninth year in a row that we, as a traffic demographic, are dying in record numbers.

But still we rally against even a whisper of mandatory helmet laws, consider plugging our tires a permanent fix, and rationalize a plethora of braking habits.

Pogo had it right: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Granted, I have benefitted from a unique learning curve when it comes to rider training, but I chose to channel that knowledge into teaching new riders that operating a motorcycle is not a game of "anything goes," but rather embracing proven techniques when it comes to paths of travel, negotiating curves and braking skills.

Perhaps the next generation of young riders will not view braking as a menu from which to select 'styles,' but adhere to developing good motor memory by always using combination braking, regardless of the system engineered into their ride.
Since this is really off-topic for the discussion at hand - as a moderator I'll ask that you continue this discussion in the suitable forum for it.. which would likely be the "Clubhouse"

Thank you for your cooperation.

greenwald
08-08-2007, 01:09 PM
Since this is really off-topic for the discussion at hand - as a moderator I'll ask that you continue this discussion in the suitable forum for it.. which would likely be the "Clubhouse"

Thank you for your cooperation.

Two final points. First, as for rear brake shuddering, this is a warranty issue to be addressed by a dealer. If you do not get satisfaction, try this: drop a brief e-mail to BMW on their wedsite address for customer contact. Trust me, in about 72 hours, your phone will be ringing with your dealer on the other end, anxious to resolve the issue and remain in good graces with his coporate boss!

As for 'debating the braking issue,' I suspect this would be a "dog chasing it's tail" discussion. Older, experienced riders (a demographic I belong to) are rapidly becoming the highest statistic when one tracks motorcycle fatalities. Why? Several reasons (age reduces our ability to survive crashes; affording very powerful machines; reduced risk awareness due to vision and coordination issues, etc.) exist, but refusing to 'unlearn' bad habits that we believe have kept us safe all these years makes the short list.

Ergo, we, the 'experienced' riders will not usher in a better future of crash reductions. That torch must be passed to newer riders that are better educated and practice the core skills that do not change with miles ridden, braking technology or time in the saddle.

karasek
08-10-2007, 07:28 AM
With nearly 18,000 miles on my two-year-old R1200RT, I agree with previous postings: any rear-brake shuddering is abnormal, and should be addressed by a service visit, as it is a warranty issue.



Greenwald, your bike would have Generation One IABS, the issue being discussed here, on topic at least, involves the Generation Two IABS which is on 07' models. How these bikes integrate the brakes are completely different. Interesting that on this thread, all those of opinion that this is an abnormal issue, with the exception of SilverRt all have bikes with Generation One IABS.

I'm of the opinion under certain conditions that Generation Two IABS, 2007 models, will have a slight pulsation in the rear pedal. Maybe the use of the word "shudder", implies a more serious problem. Either way, taking it to the dealer is the course of action if your unsure about the braking system on a new bike, just don't be surprised :banghead when you get the "they all do that" response. Of course the "they all" part implying 07 IABS2 models.

greenwald
08-10-2007, 11:58 AM
Thanks for differentiating between the two generations of Integrated ABS. Learned something new. Mine are 'servo-assisted,' which creates that annoying little whine whenever brakes are activated. Does the '07 models, which I believe did away with the electro-servo approach, perform more quietly and have a better response?

I agree with you that a dealer visit is still the order of the day for the original poster of this thread, but as you say, he/she may be curtly dismissed by the dealer. Time will tell.

I have found my dealer-customer relationship to be quite cordial and trustworthy. I hope his/hers will be the same.

Enjoy BMW.

ggfossen
08-10-2007, 02:33 PM
Something has occurred to me after reading all of this. Automobiles have had only one brake pedal forever. The brakes, front and rear, are "integrated." For several years, now, nearly all autos have had ABS systems. They work fine, and we don't have to stomp/pull on two brake activating gadgets.

In the days of yore, the extra pedal, or lever, which is now called a "parking" brake, was known as an "emergency" brake. It could be used in the event the primary system failed...and they did.

It may well be that the bike world is only just now catching up with the automobile world, at least in the braking department?

Some of us harken back to the days of "dyna-flow" transmissions; a time when all automatic transmissons were scorned, and standards ruled the road. It was a hard position out of which to "shift," but nearly all vehicles (of late including many heavy duty commercial trucks), have automatic transmissions. We have gone that way because the computers and mechanics are now smarter and faster than we are...generally, the likes of Sterling Moss excluded.

With that in mind, perhaps we have reached the point, in the bike world, where we can simply and easily grab a handful of "front" brake lever, and let computerized mechanics take it's course?

Gary

hass
08-10-2007, 09:01 PM
I have a R1200R.

I have a shudder in the rear brake pedal when braking from slower speeds which I have noticed occurs in 2nd gear. I will mention this at my 1000km service and see what they say.
I realised today - after reading this thread and doing a bit of testing - that I only get the shudder if I press the rear brake and the front (integrated) brake together.

If I just use the rear brake it's fine and if I just use the front lever it's fine.

Maybe it's just a feature of the combined system?

deilenberger
08-11-2007, 04:28 AM
With that in mind, perhaps we have reached the point, in the bike world, where we can simply and easily grab a handful of "front" brake lever, and let computerized mechanics take it's course?

GaryGary - IMHO - actually - yes. The new non-servo linked brakes are really that good. As mentioned earlier - I rarely use the rear pedal - but the back brake IS being activated since the rear wheel gets sooted up by brake dust much faster than the front. The bike is capable of short, well controlled, smooth stops and NOT touchy at walking speeds like the Servo brakes were (which I had on my last bike - an R1150RS.)

It would not surprise me at all to see stops using both front and rear controls that are longer then stops done with just the front lever. I suspect what people are feeling when they use both is the rear ABS activating because there is excessive braking force on the rear wheel. Once the ABS activates - your stopping distances get longer.

I have the non-servo brakes, and can recall once or twice when I used both feeling something in the rear pedal. Wouldn't surprise me at all that what I felt was the ABS cycling.

MCRIDER2
08-25-2007, 08:38 PM
I have an 07 RT and yes I've experienced the rear wheel shudder or pulsing so to speak. It only happens at very low speed and usually soon after taking off for the first time on a ride. Other than that little quirk the brakes are phonominal.

I took the experienced riders course soon after purchasing this bike and by using both brakes I was stopping in a much shorter distance and faster than anybody else on the course. In fact I have never had a bike with brakes this good before. I owned an 01 Goldwing before this one with ABS and those brakes were not near as good as the RT's.

This one does not have the servo assist and so is not near as sensitive as the 05s and 06s plus that annoying whine is no longer there.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the brakes but I am going to ask the dealer about it the next time I visit.

bob1100rtc
08-26-2007, 09:08 PM
On my 07 RT the only time I notice the pulsation in the rear brake pedal is when the rear is applied after the front is applied. If the rear is applied by it's self,there is no pulsation. The pulsation I am speaking of is a 2 or 3 hit in the pedal.
Think about this. Your braking with the front brake,the rear is also applied at this time (by the linked system). Now you apply the rear. The added presure has to go somewhere. Hence the "pulsation" as the system bleeds the excess presure. Just my opinion.

deilenberger
08-26-2007, 09:56 PM
What I feel is SO minor as to be a non-issue IMHO. It doesn't seem to change how the bike is stopping.

hass
08-27-2007, 06:20 AM
I spoke to my mechanic during the 1000km service and he said it is a function of the ABS. Basically when you brake with the front brake you activate both the front and rear (which we all know). And when you use the rear brake you activate only the rear (which we also all know).

However, if you brake with both the front and rear then you activate the rear twice which causes it to brake really really hard which causes the ABS to kick in on the rear which causes the shudder or vibration we feel. He insists it's the ABS even on a fine sunny day - the brakes are simply that good.

The solution: lose the habit of braking with both front and rear. I took his advice - it took me a week to relearn. However, now I can never ride another bike without fishtailing the back end :banghead

cjack
08-27-2007, 07:55 AM
What I feel is SO minor as to be a non-issue IMHO. It doesn't seem to change how the bike is stopping.

I haven't seen any mention here of how this new Continental-Teves braking system works. When you use the hand lever, the rear is operated by a pump in the ABS unit. If you add the foot pressure, at some point you override the pump and the braking pressure to the rear is from how much you add with the foot lever. When the foot pressure overrides the pump, the pump is stopped and there is some valving action occuring which directs the pressure from the pump or the foot pressure. I am wondering if this can be detected as pulsing. This all occurs well before the wheel locking point.
However, if too much foot lever pressure is used, the ABS control does become active. The same pump is activated and fluid is pumped out of the calipers thru different valves actuating. In the case of the front braking, the pump only applies during ABS active.
Another interesting improvement with this new system is that during ABS active, and if the rear wheel rotation is not sensed as occuring after a short time despite brake circuit pressure lowering, then rear wheel lift-off is assumed and the pressure to the front braking is reduced to allow the rear wheel to contact the road. This works best if power or engine braking to the rear wheel is eliminated, ie, the clutch is pulled. Something new to learn.