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DanGreene
03-06-2007, 07:04 PM
:banghead Well, after 10 years of happy BMW riding I have been very disappointed. I am looking for any suggestions from those familiar with the new CanBus and the automatic ignition disabling system where the ignition recognizes the coded key.

As some of you know, I picked up a new R1200R on Feb 24. I put about 250 miles on it the first day. I then rode it back to the dealer on Feb 28th to pick up my side cases I had ordered, for another 30 miles. This past Saturday, March 3rd, I left the house to go on a ride. I had ridden about 40 miles and stopped to pee. Bike would not start and kept giving the disabled code. Totally helpless. If this new system does not recognize your key, there is absolutely nothing you can do to get the bike started. So I call the dealer as I am about 30 miles away from Greenville, SC. They were there within the hour to pick me up. We get back and hook the bike up to the computer and in the words of the tech, "I can't get it to talk to me". No one at the dealer knows what is going on. Apparently my key somehow lost the identity code. I am very disgruntled to say the least and still no word on what the problem is. Anybody know anymore about this system?

wuli959
03-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Anybody know anymore about this system?

Dan-
It's code name is "HAL" . . . (short for HAL 9000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000))

He's having an emotional moment and will soon claim that the AE-35 unit had failed.

Be careful.

:bolt

RIDERR1150GSADV
03-06-2007, 07:48 PM
I am sorry to hear about your problem. The inability of anyone to be able to repair a bike equipped with the can-bus system is the main reason I picked my 06 R 1150 GSA over a 1200. That and the ride/ looks appealed to me more as well. :p
Just tell the dealer you have lost all confidence in this particular bike and you want a new one. This worked for my brother when his X5 took a (computer) dump 3 days into ownership. The dealer gave him a new vehicle on the spot. It seems BMW ought to hire someone from Apple or so for their software and can the folks who are doing that work now...:bluduh

chasman
03-06-2007, 08:24 PM
Dan, what a bummer! I would work hard to get a new replacement bike. If the Dealer can fix it they can use it in their demo fleet. You shouldn't be stuck with a broke 300 mile bike that the dealer can't seem to fix. JMO!

DanGreene
03-06-2007, 08:47 PM
Dan, what a bummer! I would work hard to get a new replacement bike. If the Dealer can fix it they can use it in their demo fleet. You shouldn't be stuck with a broke 300 mile bike that the dealer can't seem to fix. JMO!


Thanks Chuck. I have already put a request in writing to the dealer and BMW that I want to cancel the deal and return the bike to them. I will keep you posted on the outcome. I do not think I should have to accept a new $15,000 motorcycle that has been taken apart and put back together on some diagnostic investigation. I also would have trouble trusting the bike again. I mean one is totally helpless when this happens. Absolutely no way to start a motorcycle that has been disabled like this. I keep having visions of the middle of Kansas with night coming on. No offense to any of you who live in Kansas, some of it is just a little remote. :brow

kbasa
03-06-2007, 08:51 PM
Sounds like a failure in one of the control modules. Taken apart? It probably won't be much more than you'd see during a 600 mile service.

They'll probably wind up replacing one of the controllers, which isn't much more than snap out, snap in.

I've got three years on my R12GS without a problem and coming up on two years on the R12RT.

GlobalRider
03-06-2007, 09:10 PM
The inability of anyone to be able to repair a bike equipped with the can-bus system is the main reason I picked my 06 R 1150 GSA over a 1200.

+2; an 03 and 04 GS Adventure. And I still have those really old GSes in case those two cause me grief. ;)

jimvonbaden
03-06-2007, 10:31 PM
The inability of anyone to be able to repair a bike equipped with the can-bus system is the main reason I picked my 06 R 1150 GSA over a 1200. ...

Silliness. The canbus is nothing but some wires. The computers are not that different from your 1150.

The big difference here, and the reason the bike died, is the idiotic and unreliable immobilizer system.

Works great on cars, but not infalable. Add weather and exposure to it, and it is less than great.

It is a rare enough problem overall, but I wish BMW would make it an option rather than a standard "feature".

As for the "canbus" system, it has been on cars for many years, and is nothing to be afraid of.

Jim :brow

GlobalRider
03-06-2007, 11:24 PM
Silliness. The canbus is nothing but some wires.

Fill me in Jim. So what are its advantages?

RIDERR1150GSADV
03-06-2007, 11:35 PM
Please tell me too!! How I can fix it in the middle of nowhere without a BMW computer???? :lurk

mjuskiw
03-07-2007, 12:08 AM
One thing I kinda dont like is having to use that expensive key to remove the seat or unlock the bags. Does anyone where I could get one cut without the electronics just to use one the bags and seat. I hate putting pressure on the "wired" one.

After reading the post I also realize that I have no idea how the key works. If it got next to a credit card reader or xray machine could it get wiped clean ? Ive had credit cards ruined at work by getting them too close to magnets ect.

If electronics fail it ususally occurs rather quickly. If they replace a module and you get a few miles on it you are most likely Ok for the long haul. Maybe yours just got the bum module ?

An ovride would be a great idea, Im guessing they could set something up in that computer involving a password to disable that feature. It would be rough putting it in with one button but it would beat getting stranded.

Mjuskiw
Akron Oh

kbasa
03-07-2007, 12:11 AM
One thing I kinda dont like is having to use that expensive key to remove the seat or unlock the bags. Does anyone where I could get one cut without the electronics just to use one the bags and seat. I hate putting pressure on the "wired" one.

After reading the post I also realize that I have no idea how the key works. If it got next to a credit card reader or xray machine could it get wiped clean ? Ive had credit cards ruined at work by getting them too close to magnets ect.

If electronics fail it ususally occurs rather quickly. If they replace a module and you get a few miles on it you are most likely Ok for the long haul. Maybe yours just got the bum module ?

An ovride would be a great idea, Im guessing they could set something up in that computer involving a password to disable that feature. It would be rough putting it in with one button but it would beat getting stranded.

Mjuskiw
Akron Oh

On the hexheads, the key has a transmitter in it and there's a ring antenna around the lock. The antenna reads the key to make sure it matches the code stored in memory. If it matches, it allows you to start the bike.

I've read about a few ring antenna failures, which might be the problem here.

kbasa
03-07-2007, 12:19 AM
Fill me in Jim. So what are its advantages?

No fuses, for starters. You're never going to melt a portion of your wiring harness before the fuse pops. The Canbus can read that there's too much resistance on the circuit and shut it down. If you've ever dealt with a nicked harness, you know how much of a hassle it can cause.

Functionally, you can transmit multiple signals through one wire, which makes the harness lighter and easier to repair if there is a problem. Ducati has been using them for years, as have many automobile manufacturers. The technology is pretty well known outside BMW motorcycle circles.

I think what we've seen with this gentleman's bike is a component failure. Whether that's the fault of CanBus is yet to be seen, but I'd bet that with a fully analog wiring plan, a failed component still would lead to immobilization of the bike.

The same sorts of criticism were leveled at the Kbikes when they came out. Everybody feared the technology they didn't know how to diagnose. Now, Kbikes are widely regarded as terrific bikes. Same with oilheads, which were roundly despised by many as too complicated.

If the CanBus system sticks around, look for diagnosis tools to start to appear as software tools for your laptop. This has already happened with cars, so it makes sense to expect to see it for bikes. The CanBus protocols are fairly well specified, so making diagnostic tools shouldn't be much of a stretch.

YMMV, of course.

RONDO
03-07-2007, 12:39 AM
If the CanBus system sticks around, look for diagnosis tools to start to appear as software tools for your laptop. This has already happened with cars, so it makes sense to expect to see it for bikes. The CanBus protocols are fairly well specified, so making diagnostic tools shouldn't be much of a stretch.

YMMV, of course.

http://www.hex.co.za/gs911/howtobuy.html

Diagnosis tools are here already - I got mine about 2 months ago, the cool thing is if you have a Bluetooth phone that can run Java you don't need a computer.

http://www.everythingsop.com/Gallery2/d/4404-2/Nokia-6620.jpg

Dave

kbasa
03-07-2007, 03:17 AM
http://www.hex.co.za/gs911/howtobuy.html

Diagnosis tools are here already - I got mine about 2 months ago, the cool thing is if you have a Bluetooth phone that can run Java you don't need a computer.

http://www.everythingsop.com/Gallery2/d/4404-2/Nokia-6620.jpg

Dave

Wow. How do you connect to the bike?

Troutluck
03-07-2007, 03:18 AM
This reeks of the same kind of shenanigans lots of companies play with digital rights management. It's anti-customer, as you have discovered. Google "defective by design" and you might agree. I can't think of a single good reason for this kind of lockout (*especially* in a malfunctioning scenario), except to guarantee that the dealer has "rights" to service your bike that you'll never have, unless you manage to "break" the DRM, and possible the EULA for the bike/warranty. Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.

Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.

jimvonbaden
03-07-2007, 04:10 AM
Please tell me too!! How I can fix it in the middle of nowhere without a BMW computer???? :lurk

Same way you fix your 1150 BMW with no computer!

If you insist on being a ludite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the canbus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal maner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

With the exception of the immobilizer system nothing on the bike will leave you any more stranded than on any oilhead.

Jim :brow

In 5 years those who now get the current 1200 series will be lamenting the newest innovations, just like the airhead crowd did/does the oilheads.:rolleyes

kbasa
03-07-2007, 05:59 AM
This reeks of the same kind of shenanigans lots of companies play with digital rights management. It's anti-customer, as you have discovered. Google "defective by design" and you might agree. I can't think of a single good reason for this kind of lockout (*especially* in a malfunctioning scenario), except to guarantee that the dealer has "rights" to service your bike that you'll never have, unless you manage to "break" the DRM, and possible the EULA for the bike/warranty. Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.

Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.

I think you can see above that diagnostic tools are readily available. They're not particularly expensive, either. I think it listed for $199?

I don't think we're any more locked out of a CanBus bike than we're locked out diagnosing any bike. You just need to have the right tools to do so. That's true for any bike, I think, old, new or somewhere in between.

I've been doing my own maintenance on my R12s for a few years. They're not much different than my oilhead or, for that matter, maintaining my R100.

But hey, we all have different tolerances for technology and we'll all buy what we're comfortable with, right? :dunno

If the dealer's "locked out", that's the first step in the diagnosis, isn't it? :)

gulfcoastbeemer
03-07-2007, 11:40 AM
Lighter harness? Sheesh. I'm not drinking that koolaid.I'm not drinking that koolaid.

Why, yes, this information is affecting my next bike purchase.

You can drink it. The bike is lighter and more reliable because of CanBus technology.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could bring back the "good old days" when you could repair your R-bike by the side of the road with a rock. Of course, it would be even better if you weren't stuck by the side of the road and didn't need a rock.

I have two CanBus BMWs -- an '05 R1200RT and an '07 R1200RT. I have had zero problems. There were many reasons I selected a modern BMW: strong light-weight construction, general reliability, excellent handling, ABS brakes, ESA suspension, electronic adjustable windshield, economical operation, high-performance motor, aerodynamic fairing, and modern electronics -- yes, even CanBus.

There are no "perfect" motorcycles. I'm sure the dealer will sort out Troutluck's ignition key issue. I don't think it would make any sense to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Troutluck
03-07-2007, 12:27 PM
You can drink it. The bike is lighter and more reliable because of CanBus technology. . .

There are no "perfect" motorcycles. I'm sure the dealer will sort out Troutluck's ignition key issue. I don't think it would make any sense to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Not my bike, but you're missing my point, I think. I don't doubt that harness is lighter; I doubt that BMW went this route to save weight. As an owner of a late-model oilhead, I know that if the brain dies, my bike is a giant paperweight. I'm no "luddite," and I fully appreciate the joys of electronic ignition.

My beef is this: It's not OK for manufacturers to create systems that are undiagnosable/inscrutable by their owners. We're rapidly moving, I fear, to a manufacturing culture in which a dealer can't tell you what was wrong with your bike, because that information is proprietary to the brand. You just get a bill and a "repair code" that vaguely states that something was repaired or replaced. No service contract? Sorry. You'll have to violate the DMCA to fix it yourself, using diagnostic tools you download from some Russian mob website.

The fact that it's possible for the bikes to be "locked out" makes this a scary possibility. Never mind me, though. As Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here.

easy
03-07-2007, 01:03 PM
Welcome to the 21st Century.

What we have here is a little failure to communicate and some good old fashion technological paranoia. For starters, we have a mechanic who fell asleep during one of the technical update training classes. I would suggest taking your bike to a dealership that has a mechanic that lives in the 21st century. It can't be fixed without technical know how and the proper instruments.

It canÔÇÖt be fixed it on the road, but the same thing could happen to most cars.

In short, people fear what they don't understand.

Easy :german

rob nye
03-07-2007, 01:05 PM
Hey now,

A few comments.

First, every new BMW I have purchased came with three keys, two regular keys and one wallet sized spare. Where are your spare keys? That would tell you right off the bat if it was the key or the sensor.

When the oilheads were introduced airhead riders panned (and some still do) them as over complicated, etc. My airhead friends would go on and on about how much better it is to have a bike one could take apart and put back together with a leatherman.

One time I even got this sermon from a guy while we were parked at a rest area to fix a broken airhead.

I don't think he quite understood the irony of the moment.

Two Iron Butt Rallies, over 100k bopping around all on multiple "fool" injected bikes and only once was I stuck by the side of the road and that was after a deep woods fall down on my GS where I knocked the TPS all out of whack. I was able to make field adjustments and get me and my bike out of the woods and two days later in the driving rain I got stranded while on my way to the dealer.

Having said this there really is no excuse for a bike going all wonky and I really hope your dealer does you right.

GlobalRider
03-07-2007, 01:24 PM
No fuses, for starters. You're never going to melt a portion of your wiring harness before the fuse pops. The Canbus can read that there's too much resistance on the circuit and shut it down. If you've ever dealt with a nicked harness, you know how much of a hassle it can cause.

Bear with me. I don't own a Hexhead.

So what you are saying is that Hexheads don't have a single fuse or fuse box on the motorcycle?

If the Canbus can shut down a circuit, then there is a bit of electronics involved...certainly more than a simple fuse set-up.

Nicked harnesses. Ahhh, now you know the reason for a once or twice a year thorough motorcycle wash where I remove the gas tank, seat, side covers, etc. It gives me the chance to really clean and inspect everything, especially the stuff that is normally out of sight.




Functionally, you can transmit multiple signals through one wire, which makes the harness lighter and easier to repair if there is a problem.

Signals to what? Certainly not to something as simple as a left and right turn signal. If that is the case with one wire feeding them, then you need an addressable module next to each turn signal. If that is the case, talk about unnecessary complexity...to turn on a simple light.

How much lighter does it make the harness? Are we decreasing the size (number of wires) by over 50%? I can see that being an issue in a B777 or an F16, but on a motorcycle?

Easier to repair? I take it you mean diagnose? Nothing could be simpler than power at one end of a wire and a load at the other. Maybe techs have lost their diagnostic skills...actually, very few had that skill to start with so I have seen.




If the CanBus system sticks around, look for diagnosis tools to start to appear as software tools for your laptop.

Don't worry, Dave. The marketing people are good at changing things when sales of the last boom tappers off. They're good at producing a need that nobody has asked for and what is a gimmick in most cases. Look at where DVDs are going. Now Blu Ray. Do they really think I'm going to buy all those movies again? I don't have a single DVD that I already had on VHS.

Having never blown a fuse since I bought my first BMW in 1991, how does this technology help me? But you know the saying, "BS baffles brains" and the MFGs are certainly good at impressing the masses.

RIDERR1150GSADV
03-07-2007, 02:20 PM
Same way you fix your 1150 BMW with no computer!

If you insist on being a Luddite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the can bus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal manner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.

With the exception of the immobilizer system nothing on the bike will leave you any more stranded than on any oilhead.

Jim :brow

In 5 years those who now get the current 1200 series will be lamenting the newest innovations, just like the airhead crowd did/does the oilheads.:rolleyes


I am not lowering myself to your level by namecalling but you go right ahead and get the latest tech that BMW deems necessary to push on its clients. I know the technology and it works well in cars but we are talking motorcycles, not 5 & 7 series BMW's. (who still have issues)
Maybe it's me, but for now I'll let folks like you beta test the whole thing until it's foolproof. As far as rumor go, there aren't any as facts speak for themselves.

kitze2
03-07-2007, 03:14 PM
Try fixing your TV, cell phone or even your toaster oven! I work on commercial boats and the new engines from Cat. have four computers on the motor and two more in the pilot house. Each motor! Are they harder to work on? Not at all. They're still an internal combustion motor. Are the electronics a mystery to most? You bet. But they burn less fuel, make more power and since they run whithin the ideal design conditions are much, much more reliable. And a tech with the right equipment and training can fix them 100 times faster than the old systems.
If you want ABS and traction control and electronic suspension and trip computers and clocks that actually tell time you just have to take the risk (actually a very, very tiny one at worst) with the new electronics. Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

darrylri
03-07-2007, 03:28 PM
Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

I beg your pardon! ;) I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

;)

ggfossen
03-07-2007, 03:34 PM
I always reset the trip odometer with each gas fill on my '83 R80RT, too...or I use to. It's busted, now, and it a isn't "side of the road" fix.

My little FL60 Freightliner RV puller has to be hooked to a computer diagnostic interface with...someplace back east....so the mechanics can do much of anything, and it does have a couple minor "issues." It does, though, get nearly as good of mileage as many of the much smaller older pickups, and it shifts all by itself, and much better than I probably could do with a clutch.

I just rebuilt a little 2 cycliner '56 JD crawler; simplicity to the max. But when I start pushing dirt, I jealously ponder the new machines. They push dirt a lot more easily.

My first auto was a $60 Model A Ford. A really fun little car that needed constant tinkering. Anyone remember how long the old muscle car engines would last without a rebuild? Somewhere around 80,000 miles, they started doing really bad things. Today, twice or three times that is not unusual.

Five thousand mile tires, and one year 6 volt batteries, anyone? Not me.

Nope, they really don't make them like they use to.

Gary

Troutluck
03-07-2007, 03:47 PM
It seems that whole crux of the biscuit comes down to this:

You either

a) Want a system with average reliability and relatively low incidence of catastrophic failure that's easily diagnosable and repairable with easy-to-find parts;

or,

b) You want a system with high reliability, but that cannot be easily diagnosed or fixed without special tools or instruments (we could debate the incidence of catastrophic failure here. Seems to me that anything that causes the bike to Not Move(tm) is a catastrophic failure, i.e., wonky key transmitter with secret codes, mysterious ABS failure codes, etc.).

These are deeply personal choices. Part of owning a bike for me is the feeling that I have some control over technology. If the bike decides to Not Move, I want to feel somewhat competent in determining the cause. This doesn't apply to every aspect of my life. If the Ford doesn't start, it's probably getting towed, because I'm not going to break out the tools and troubleshoot while my family waits in the heat or cold.

However, I enjoy tinkering with the bike. If I screw something up, it might take me a few days to figure out at my leisure, but I'm not without other wheels.

I'm not saying that the current crop of BMW bike technology prevents you from doing any troubleshooting at all, but it does make it harder for your average person to make any assumptions about what might be wrong. Air, spark, and fuel become tangential.

This could explain the Ural thing, maybe, but I don't want to go there. Yet.

kbasa
03-07-2007, 03:49 PM
I beg your pardon! ;) I not only remeber those things, I have four bikes in the garage that have them. Magnetos are very reliable devices, and don't depend on the rest of the charging system.

And what's the problem with a 6V generator? If you replace the brushes every 5k miles or so, it works great. And who could ask for more than a 35watt incandescent headlight?

Points are a bit fiddly, but unless they slip, they just run and run. My R60/2 only calls for checking the points every 3k miles, and except when the rubbing block came off, I've never had to check them sooner.

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at.

;)

When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl? :)

easy
03-07-2007, 04:16 PM
When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl? :)

Touche!!


Easy :german

kbasa
03-07-2007, 05:31 PM
It seems that whole crux of the biscuit comes down to this:

You either

a) Want a system with average reliability and relatively low incidence of catastrophic failure that's easily diagnosable and repairable with easy-to-find parts;

or,

b) You want a system with high reliability, but that cannot be easily diagnosed or fixed without special tools or instruments (we could debate the incidence of catastrophic failure here. Seems to me that anything that causes the bike to Not Move(tm) is a catastrophic failure, i.e., wonky key transmitter with secret codes, mysterious ABS failure codes, etc.).

These are deeply personal choices. Part of owning a bike for me is the feeling that I have some control over technology. If the bike decides to Not Move, I want to feel somewhat competent in determining the cause. This doesn't apply to every aspect of my life. If the Ford doesn't start, it's probably getting towed, because I'm not going to break out the tools and troubleshoot while my family waits in the heat or cold.

However, I enjoy tinkering with the bike. If I screw something up, it might take me a few days to figure out at my leisure, but I'm not without other wheels.

I'm not saying that the current crop of BMW bike technology prevents you from doing any troubleshooting at all, but it does make it harder for your average person to make any assumptions about what might be wrong. Air, spark, and fuel become tangential.

This could explain the Ural thing, maybe, but I don't want to go there. Yet.

Well put.

With a couple hexheads in the house, I can do all the basic maintenance I want, but if there's diagnostics to be done, I'm going to need to buy the right tool and learn how to use it.

Similar to working on my airhead, just different enough to make some folks uncomfortable as they try to sort new skills.

Vive le difference!

hexst
03-07-2007, 05:50 PM
What BMW calls canbus has been around for over ten years in the auto industry, Ducati,Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way.

flash412
03-07-2007, 06:20 PM
What BMW calls canbus has been around for over ten years in the auto industry, Ducati,Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way.What BMW calls fuel injection has been around for over ten years in the auto industry. Ducati, Triumph and most of the Asian bikes are also going that way. However NONE of the other manufacturers REQUIRE you to take it to an official licensed dealer to get it serviced. Everyone EXCEPT BMW is "open source." When a BMW component dies, if you are far from a dealer, yer fooked. Other than swapping out components with known-good examples, you can't even troubleshoot without the Official BMW MoDuhTec machine (only available on LEASE from korporate BMW). Double your fun as BMW closes dealerships, putting owners further and further from the nearest dealer all the time.

RONDO
03-07-2007, 07:01 PM
Wow. How do you connect to the bike?

Connects right to the diagnostic port under the seat on my R12GS Adv. There are 2 version one Bluetooth & USB and one just USB.

there is a good write up here: http://www.r1200gs.info/misc/GS-911.html

Dave

RONDO
03-07-2007, 07:10 PM
When a BMW component dies, if you are far from a dealer, yer fooked. Other than swapping out components with known-good examples, you can't even troubleshoot without the Official BMW MoDuhTec machine (only available on LEASE from korporate BMW). Double your fun as BMW closes dealerships, putting owners further and further from the nearest dealer all the time.


As posted above you can get a GS911 for $200 and check for fault codes.

Works great:) , I played around with mine by creating faults (unpluging stuff).

Not everything is going to throw a fault code though - such as a failed drive spline :stick

Dave

LTLJOHN
03-07-2007, 08:44 PM
Can you provide a link for the GS-911??

jimvonbaden
03-07-2007, 09:32 PM
I am not lowering myself to your level by namecalling but you go right ahead and get the latest tech that BMW deems necessary to push on its clients. I know the technology and it works well in cars but we are talking motorcycles, not 5 & 7 series BMW's. (who still have issues)
Maybe it's me, but for now I'll let folks like you beta test the whole thing until it's foolproof. As far as rumor go, there aren't any as facts speak for themselves.

Talk about thin skinned! I apologize if you think I was calling YOU a nasty name.


If you insist on being a Luddite, that's fine with me, but don't go spreading the rumor that the can bus is some kind of motorcycle voodoo that is unfixable in the normal manner. Take the time to learn how to work with it.



Luddite: An individual who is against technological change.

Obviously I was too harsh! :rolleyes



Many of you seem to think BMW is trying to pull one over on you or something.

Paranoia runs rampant when ignorance reigns. (NOT directed at anyone specifically)

The system is no more difficult to work on that any other, and as said by others, the other motorcycle manufacturers are also going canbus, because it works, and it works well.

Canbus is NOT a one wire system, it is all about less wires and the flexibility to make the systems work more efficiently. But no amount of me saying so will change the minds of those who are against it.

Just remember what has already been said, in a few years everyone will be lamenting the simplicity of the 2005 models in light of the complexity of the 2015 models.

Once again, I am sorry if I offended anyone by disagreeing with them. It was my intention to illuminate, not disassociate. :hug

Jim :brow

PS How old does technology have to be to not be considered "Beta"? 20 years long enough, longer?

jimvonbaden
03-07-2007, 09:37 PM
Connects right to the diagnostic port under the seat on my R12GS Adv. There are 2 version one Bluetooth & USB and one just USB.

there is a good write up here: http://www.r1200gs.info/misc/GS-911.html

Dave

The link is right there.

Anyhow, I have used the GS-911, and it is a cool unit, and very useful. However, it really isn't necessary for working on your own bike 95% of the time, and certainly NO dealer "REQUIRES" the bike be brought in for regular service. That would be illegal.

Here are a couple shots of the GS-911 in use.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/ST-ZFE-Fault.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/ST-KOBBI-Fault.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/ST-BMS-K.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/GS-ZFE-Faults.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/GS-ZFE-controller.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/GS-KOMBI.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/GS-bms-K.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/JimVonBaden2000/R1200GS/GS%20911%20Screen%20Shots/GS-ABS-Can.jpg
It showed a couple faults that I caused myself. One from a low battery, one from a defective aftermarket BRAKE light, and one from my Stiebel Horn.

Jim :brow

flash412
03-07-2007, 10:11 PM
As posted above you can get a GS911 for $200 and check for fault codes. Works great, I played around with mine by creating faults (unpluging stuff).DAYUM! Does the fact you bought one with your credit card immediately void your motorcycle's warranty (before you even plug it into your bike)? :stick

ggfossen
03-07-2007, 10:43 PM
OK, I'll bite. What does CANBUS stand for?

I'm assuming it's something akin to the new mutil-plex wiring systems being used in semis?? If anything is late being draged into the new world, it's big trucks, and they have had it for a few years, now.

Gary

darrylri
03-07-2007, 10:58 PM
When's your hexhead showing up, Darryl? :)

I think the R1200ST will be here in a week or two. It was supposed to have arrived in New Jersey yesterday. ;)

Today, however, I discovered that my 1928 R52 isn't timed right. Fortunately, it's made of stone-axe reliable parts, so it's no problem to set the timing.

Remove the carburetor and induction pipes to get some clearance.
Remove the Bosch magneto.
Remove the right head.
Bring the motor to TDC on compression on the right side.
Back the motor up beyond 12mm of piston travel in the bore.
Roll the motor up to just 12mm of piston travel left before TDC. (This takes all the slack out of the system.)
Set the magneto so that the points are just breaking for a spark on the right cylinder.
Without moving the magneto or the engine, get the big gear on the front of the magneto into mesh with the idler gear in the motor.
Button everything up.
Piece o' cake!

RIDERR1150GSADV
03-07-2007, 11:11 PM
Talk about thin skinned! I apologize if you think I was calling YOU a nasty name.





Obviously I was too harsh! :rolleyes



Many of you seem to think BMW is trying to pull one over on you or something.

Paranoia runs rampant when ignorance reigns. (NOT directed at anyone specifically)

The system is no more difficult to work on that any other, and as said by others, the other motorcycle manufacturers are also going canbus, because it works, and it works well.

Canbus is NOT a one wire system, it is all about less wires and the flexibility to make the systems work more efficiently. But no amount of me saying so will change the minds of those who are against it.

Just remember what has already been said, in a few years everyone will be lamenting the simplicity of the 2005 models in light of the complexity of the 2015 models.

Once again, I am sorry if I offended anyone by disagreeing with them. It was my intention to illuminate, not disassociate. :hug

Jim :brow

PS How old does technology have to be to not be considered "Beta"? 20 years long enough, longer?

Sorry about that spat too! :hug I guess we are sometimes too passionate about our bikes to remain cool and collected. :)
I am not against new technology and have many of the latest gadgets. It isn't that canbus is bad but does it really have a place on bikes?? How much weight are we saving?? 26 pounds between my 'old' GSA and the new ADV? Most of it from the engine and frame btw. Big deal!!:rolleyes . I love long distance riding and put 30K miles on a bike a year, often in very remote area's. I can at least deal with a fuse and a broken wiring harness if that were an issue. Other things can happen, I know, but I believe in KIS(S). :wave YMMV

RONDO
03-07-2007, 11:32 PM
Can you provide a link for the GS-911??

The mfg is located in South Africa
http://www.hex.co.za/gs911/howtobuy.html

The other link I posted was a write up on the tool.

I like the idea of having this with me on long trips - just like my air pump & tire repair kit I hope I never need it and now that I have one I probably never will.

Dave

GlobalRider
03-08-2007, 12:01 AM
Funny how the terms "more reliable" and "maintenance free" are being confused.

Points ignition isn't any more unreliable than electronic ignition; they're more maintenance intensive, and thats all. And when I'm in the middle of Iceland, I'd sooner have points, gravity feed fuel, etc. thank you.

And progress is supposed to benefit me in the way of something...right. So what am I getting in my oilhead that I'm not in my airhead. More MPGs? Not...you just have to know how to tune airheads. More reliablility? Neither of them has left me stranded since I first bought a BMW in 1991.

flash412
03-08-2007, 12:02 AM
Today, however, I discovered that my 1928 R52 isn't timed right. Fortunately, it's made of stone-axe reliable parts, so it's no problem to set the timing...
*Remove the right head.Uh... how come you hafta remove the head to determine the timing? Wouldn't a dial indicator down the plug hole be a whole lot easier? Or, in the event that itsa flathead with the sparkie on the side (I dunno the R52), wouldn't a DEGREE WHEEL and some graph paper tell you exactly the same thing? And even if you hadda pull the head ONCE, wouldn't putting a MARK somewhere and using a degree wheel make it a LOT easier to time than pulling the head when the points are worn and the timing needs to be adjusted in the future?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

While we're talking about old bike timing, what's the difference between 12mm before TDC on compression and on overlap when the ignition is wasted spark? (Or even if it is NOT a wasted spark, on a twin with a 180?? crank?) Seems to me that in any case, it doesn't matter which head you pull or which stroke the cam is on when you set the timing. What am I missing? Thanks in advance.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Dr. Flash Gordon, M.D.

jimvonbaden
03-08-2007, 02:59 AM
Funny how the terms "more reliable" and "maintenance free" are being confused.

Points ignition isn't any more unreliable than electronic ignition; they're more maintenance intensive, and thats all. And when I'm in the middle of Iceland, I'd sooner have points, gravity feed fuel, etc. thank you.

And progress is supposed to benefit me in the way of something...right. So what am I getting in my oilhead that I'm not in my airhead. More MPGs? Not...you just have to know how to tune airheads. More reliablility? Neither of them has left me stranded since I first bought a BMW in 1991.

That is the crux of it. For the large majority of us, the R1200 has not left us stranded either. So, is the added technology a problem? Depends on if you have had issues with it.

For me, the issues I have had with my R1200GS were all pure mechanical, and had nothing to do with new technology.

Jim :brow

darrylri
03-08-2007, 04:52 AM
Inquiring minds wanna know.
It would be my pleasure.


Uh... how come you hafta remove the head to determine the timing? Wouldn't a dial indicator down the plug hole be a whole lot easier? Or, in the event that itsa flathead with the sparkie on the side (I dunno the R52), wouldn't a DEGREE WHEEL and some graph paper tell you exactly the same thing?

The R52 is, in fact, a flat head. I actually have a tool that screws into the (18mm) plug hole for a dial indicator, but alas, the plunger isn't long enough.

Here's a picture of the front of the motor. Where are you going to mount that degree wheel? The camshaft gear isn't threaded on the inside. Also, when the motor is in the frame, there's very little clearance with the forks.

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2005/r52work/slides/P5090851.JPG


Anyway, the owners manual calls out for pulling the head and measuring the travel.

It also says you can remove the carb and look through the air intake port on the back of the bell housing, at the back of the flywheel to see the timing marks there, but for some reason, my flywheel isn't marked. (The round hole at the top of the bell housing is the air intake port.)

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2005/r52work/slides/P5090861.JPG



And even if you hadda pull the head ONCE, wouldn't putting a MARK somewhere and using a degree wheel make it a LOT easier to time than pulling the head when the points are worn and the timing needs to be adjusted in the future?

It would indeed. That's why I took this opportunity to paint a witness mark onto the air intake under the right cylinder and, after measuring the OT and VZ points according to the owner's manual, transfering them to the front of the flywheel. Here's a picture of the air intake window (among other things); it's the opening in the front of the bell housing:

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2005/r52work/slides/P5080845.JPG


While we're talking about old bike timing, what's the difference between 12mm before TDC on compression and on overlap when the ignition is wasted spark? (Or even if it is NOT a wasted spark, on a twin with a 180?? crank?) Seems to me that in any case, it doesn't matter which head you pull or which stroke the cam is on when you set the timing. What am I missing? Thanks in advance.

It's not a wasted spark. The Bosch D2A and D2B magdynos don't put out enough juice to fire both plugs. Where the plug wires mount onto either side of the unit, inside, there's a wheel with a 6mm long brass strip on it, which acts as a distributor. The magneto is geared, via an idler gear, from the camshaft, so it runs at half crank speed. So, when you put it together, you have to have the brass strip on the side that's under compression.

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2004/r52/smeyer/MagInn_med.JPG

mrich12000
03-08-2007, 08:24 AM
:stick I'm keeping my K
Excelent information thanks :clap

Michael Rich
VE3CEH
1990 K75 TS
ATI 201

GlobalRider
03-08-2007, 01:06 PM
For me, the issues I have had with my R1200GS were all pure mechanical, and had nothing to do with new technology.

Jim :brow

Purely mechanical issues? Thats rare. What went other than maybe that rear drive.

I'd sooner drop the high tech because when it does quit, and everything "more complicated than it has to be" does, then you're left standing there with your cell phone calling a flat bed...provided you have cell phone coverage.

Also, the reason that "neither of them left me stranded" has more to do with preventative maintenance than with inherent reliability.

darrylri
03-08-2007, 01:24 PM
:stick I'm keeping my K

Why not have both? :)

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/mcpics/2006/r52/slides/downshift.jpg

flash412
03-08-2007, 02:15 PM
It would be my pleasure... [motorhead photos and 'splenations deleted]BRAVO! Thank you Darryl. That tour of the R52 innards and inner workings was GREAT. Clearly one or two improvements have been made in the flat twin design over the years. (Though it took them roughly seventy years to perfect the exploding differential.)

"REAL BMW's have pressed frames." - Some guy at a rally in the early 1950's :D

GlobalRider
03-08-2007, 02:24 PM
Clearly one or two improvements have been made in the flat twin design over the years. (Though it took them roughly seventy years to perfect the exploding differential.)

Exploding differential? Actually a rear drive unit and they've only recently started to "explode" or fail...ever since they went to the single sided swingarm about 20 years ago.

I don't remember reading about R75/5 (or any others with a full swingarm) rear drives failing.

darrylri
03-08-2007, 03:12 PM
BRAVO! Thank you Darryl. That tour of the R52 innards and inner workings was GREAT. Clearly one or two improvements have been made in the flat twin design over the years.

The one thing about the 20s and early 30s bikes that strikes me as being really weird is the air "filtration" system. As you've seen above, it takes in air from just under and behind the right cylinder. This is good because it's preheated, and also, between the footboard and the cylinder, it's fairly protected from mud and gravel. :eek

Then the air travels around the whirling flywheel and clutch to get to the hole at the top of the bell housing. This is supposed to help prevent dust from getting into the engine.

Finally, there's a short pipe that heads backwards to the carb intake. The carb throat makes a 180 degree turn to start the air moving forward again. This is clearly not based on the modern idea of a ram air pressurized air box!

The carb has 2 slides in series -- there are two thumblevers up on the handlebars to control each one -- the first in line controls how much air gets through and the second covers the fuel jet and controls (if I can be liberal with that word) how much fuel dribbles into the manifold. (There's no needle.)

After all that filtering stuff, there's an idle air screw on the manifold side of the carb that lets "unfiltered" air in.

After all that, fuel injection seems simpler.


(Though it took them roughly seventy years to perfect the exploding differential.)

The only differentials on BMW bikes were on the R75M in WWII. But they had gearboxes that would lock up.


"REAL BMW's have pressed frames." - Some guy at a rally in the early 1950's :D

They were rugged -- you should see what the Polish farmers did to mine. Better yet, read about someone else's purchase of The Best R12 in the World (http://histor.ws/bestr12/index.htm).

But it's a modern design, one of the first "perimiter frames" in motorcycling!

jdiaz
03-08-2007, 03:25 PM
I don't remember reading about R75/5 (or any others with a full swingarm) rear drives failing.

I have an $1100 truck rental bill from UHaul thanks to a failed /5 final drive coupling.

easy
03-08-2007, 04:18 PM
I have an $1100 truck rental bill from UHaul thanks to a failed /5 final drive coupling.

Platinum Club member?

Easy :german

GlobalRider
03-08-2007, 08:55 PM
I have an $1100 truck rental bill from UHaul thanks to a failed /5 final drive coupling.

Coupling? The splines to the wheel or the driveshaft joint? In either case, nowhere near the numbers for Paralever driveshafts and rear drive units.

wuli959
03-08-2007, 11:39 PM
:banghead Well, after 10 years of happy BMW riding I have been very disappointed. I am looking for any suggestions from those familiar with the new CanBus and the automatic ignition disabling system where the ignition recognizes the coded key.

so what's the status of your bike? :lurk

cjack
03-09-2007, 12:10 AM
Coupling? The splines to the wheel or the driveshaft joint? In either case, nowhere near the numbers for Paralever driveshafts and rear drive units.

Sometimes the coupling splined cup came loose from the driveshaft...at the input to the final drive. Rare and usually a devil to remove if you wanted it off .

dcloud
03-09-2007, 01:13 AM
Try fixing your TV, cell phone or even your toaster oven! I work on commercial boats and the new engines from Cat. have four computers on the motor and two more in the pilot house. Each motor! Are they harder to work on? Not at all. They're still an internal combustion motor. Are the electronics a mystery to most? You bet. But they burn less fuel, make more power and since they run whithin the ideal design conditions are much, much more reliable. And a tech with the right equipment and training can fix them 100 times faster than the old systems.
If you want ABS and traction control and electronic suspension and trip computers and clocks that actually tell time you just have to take the risk (actually a very, very tiny one at worst) with the new electronics. Anyone remember points? How about magnetos? Or 6 volt charging (if you can really call 'em that) systems. I wouldn't go back for anything. Of course I still reset my trip odo at every fill up. Old habits do die hard!

Well put, CAN systems have been in use for well over 10 years in the heavy duty truck market. Most, if not all, are drive by wire, engines and transmissions have no mechanical linkages of any kind. Just think someday the throttle cable will go away.
Nothing to be afraid of, it just takes time to adjust to the new technology.:clap

BRADFORDBENN
03-09-2007, 03:42 AM
Howdy All-

This topic is something I know something about from work as my sister company makes the telemetrics and infotainment systems for the BMW cars and is one of the stakeholders in MOST. The cars use the MOST bus. The MOST bus is also not a proprietary standard but one that is licensed to some degree (http://www.mostcooperation.com/)

The CAN bus is not a proprietary format to BMW it is actually an ISO standard. It is simply a Controller Area Network (http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_CAN.html) there are standards. Now how the data is carried and packetized can be proprietary but with a little work it can be decoded.

I can explain why this is a good thing to some degree and why it is a bad thing. But there are plusses and minuses to everything. What is interesting to me is that since I am more of a bit-head then a self-wrencher, I prefer being able to plug into a system to diagnosis. However I also understand why people would prefer to have it more analog in the interface.

Basically think of it as if it is a phone system on your bike. We trust that collection of wires and routing and data transmission every day.

jimvonbaden
03-09-2007, 03:45 AM
Purely mechanical issues? Thats rare. What went other than maybe that rear drive.

I'd sooner drop the high tech because when it does quit, and everything "more complicated than it has to be" does, then you're left standing there with your cell phone calling a flat bed...provided you have cell phone coverage.

Also, the reason that "neither of them left me stranded" has more to do with preventative maintenance than with inherent reliability.


My trans seals started leaking, and my FD seal leaked. Both easily fixed, and neither was in danger of stranding me. Just mild seaps.

But hey, you have to do what you are comfortable with. I have a few older friends who wont drive anything made after 1970. If it makes them happy, that's cool for them.

For me, I like the new technology, and am not afraid of it.

Jim :brow

GlobalRider
03-09-2007, 01:03 PM
For me, I like the new technology, and am not afraid of it.

Jim :brow

Same here. I have a few for North America and Europe, where being stranded isn't a concern, and one for Iceland, where being stranded is.

Despite having both, I'll always question progress and what I'm realizing by it.

DanGreene
03-09-2007, 01:28 PM
so what's the status of your bike? :lurk


Well the dealer reports that it was a faulty receiver in the ignition and it did not recognize my key. They replaced it and said it was no big deal...and probably isn't...unless they are the ones stranded and helpless by the side of the road in a remote area. I requested that my purchase be cancelled and that I give them the bike back and take my trade-in back. This was denied. I then requested of BMWNA that they replace the bike with another just like it. This also was denied.

So, ever hopeful and at their mercy, I pick up the bike today.

kbasa
03-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Well the dealer reports that it was a faulty receiver in the ignition and it did not recognize my key.

And who figured that's what it was? :D

Seriously, though, I'm glad you've got your bike back.

osbornk
03-09-2007, 03:06 PM
Well the dealer reports that it was a faulty receiver in the ignition and it did not recognize my key. They replaced it and said it was no big deal...and probably isn't...unless they are the ones stranded and helpless by the side of the road in a remote area. I requested that my purchase be cancelled and that I give them the bike back and take my trade-in back. This was denied. I then requested of BMWNA that they replace the bike with another just like it. This also was denied.

So, ever hopeful and at their mercy, I pick up the bike today.


I can understand why they wouldn't replace the bike or take it back. One part failing doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the bike. If motorcycles, cars and trucks were routinely replaced or bought back due to an electronic part failing shortly after the vehicle was put in service, nobody could afford to buy a new vehicle. There are thousands of parts that could fail on any vehicle and leave you stranded. Most electronics seem to fail quickly or not at all.

SGTBORING
03-09-2007, 03:51 PM
Dan-
It's code name is "HAL" . . . (short for HAL 9000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000))

He's having an emotional moment and will soon claim that the AE-35 unit had failed.

Be careful.

:bolt

I started here and ended up at the Bell Labs text to voice web sight. I made Steven Hawkings sing "Happy Birthday, Mr. President"! Check out this site.

http://www1.bell-labs.com/project/tts/voices.html

CABNFVR
08-26-2007, 03:05 AM
...... There are thousands of parts that could fail on any vehicle and leave you stranded. True, but I think the point is that the immobilizer is a part that is not required, no one asked for it, and people ARE getting stranded due to it.

I'd bet the immobilizer has prevented ZERO thefts, but a quick internet search will result in many, many stranded rider stories.

BMW will fix it like they have everything from paralever final drives to R90 diode boards; patch until the new models come out in a few years.

If I sound bitter (not at you BTW) , it could be from standing by the side of the road due to an immobiliser ring. At least BMW got the frigging name right.


.. Most electronics seem to fail quickly or not at all.10,462 miles. Next theory?

YELLOW_S
08-26-2007, 04:16 AM
BMW is wondering how to get younger riders to ride BMW... I know something that will make BMW more attractive. Get ride of the damn computers. Can't do **** to any of the new bikes just about with-out plugging it into a computer.

As time goes by, thoses Japanese bikes are lookin a WHOLE lot better.

jgr451
08-26-2007, 06:24 AM
Dan-
It's code name is "HAL" . . . (short for HAL 9000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000))

He's having an emotional moment and will soon claim that the AE-35 unit had failed.


Yeah,any minute it will be"Dan,just what do you think you're doing?"

Be careful.

:bolt

Yeah,any minute it will be"Dan,just what do you think you're doing?"

mrich12000
08-26-2007, 07:23 AM
:banghead Well, after 10 years of happy BMW riding I have been very disappointed. I am looking for any suggestions from those familiar with the new CanBus and the automatic ignition disabling system where the ignition recognizes the coded key.

As some of you know, I picked up a new R1200R on Feb 24. I put about 250 miles on it the first day. I then rode it back to the dealer on Feb 28th to pick up my side cases I had ordered, for another 30 miles. This past Saturday, March 3rd, I left the house to go on a ride. I had ridden about 40 miles and stopped to pee. Bike would not start and kept giving the disabled code. Totally helpless. If this new system does not recognize your key, there is absolutely nothing you can do to get the bike started. So I call the dealer as I am about 30 miles away from Greenville, SC. They were there within the hour to pick me up. We get back and hook the bike up to the computer and in the words of the tech, "I can't get it to talk to me". No one at the dealer knows what is going on. Apparently my key somehow lost the identity code. I am very disgruntled to say the least and still no word on what the problem is. Anybody know anymore about this system?


Try this site http://www.probike.co.uk/it080006.htm
Texa Navigator Wireless ÔÇô

PC and PDA based multi-make OBD diagnostics for bikes
Current emissions legislation means that virtually all new bikes are fitted with fuel injection with an ECU which needs checking, just like any other part of the bike. The latest additions to bikes' electronics systems are complex CANBUS networks which integrate individual electronic systems (fuel-injection, CO adjustment, immobiliser, fault codes, service lamps, ABS) - even manufacturers of small scooters have CAN systems now. Although some motorcycle manufacturers offer specific diagnostic tools for their own dealer networks, working on part-exchanged and used bikes requires a more affordable and universal alternative. Otherwise you would need a different electronic tool for every make you service.

The Navigator is available as 2 versions - one with PC software for Windows or with PDA software. With both versions of the Navigator, the connection between the bike and PC is by Bluetooth, with no trailing wires as a result.

The Navigator Wireless is a lower cost solution than the Axone, as you supply the hardware. This gives a degree of future-proofing as you can update the PC or PDA as better versions become available. The PC & PDA software includes additional features like wiring diagrams and video information showing diagnostic connection locations etc.

For bikes that don't yet support communication via a diagnostic socket, dashboard displayed fault codes are shown for fast troubleshooting without a library of service manuals. An (optional) annual subscription service is available to provide updates for new models and features as they are introduced.

Call for further details.

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E-Mail: Sales@ProBike.co.uk
I have no affiliation or own stock in this company:clap . Just supplying info hope this can help.

Michael Richard
126360
VE3CEH
Wandering through Eden:wave :bikes

bob1100rtc
08-26-2007, 09:40 PM
I work on can bus vehicles every day. Very simple to diagnose. Check for power and ground at module that isn't talking, short the bus wire to ground at the module that isn't talking and see if the rest of the bus goes down. If it does the wiring is good and it needs a module or a flash update to the module. No vodoo here just need to know how to diagnose it. I hope my R12RT never has a problem but when the warranty runs out I won't be afraid to dive in.

deilenberger
08-26-2007, 10:18 PM
Moving this thread to Hexheads where it now belongs.. amazing how dead threads revive themselves sometimes..

ggfossen
08-27-2007, 03:14 AM
A few years ago, Freightliner went to a new wiring system. I think they call it "multi-plex," or something like that. I think it's something similar to CAN BUS.

Many new cars have the disabling key system.

My '99 Ford PU had a "fly by wire" throttle; no mechanical connection.

This stuff isn't "up and coming." It's been around for quite some time. It generally works well.

My first car was '31 Model A Ford. From that, I graduated to a '39 Chev PU. The pickup took me coast to coast, and Canada to Mexico, but I must say, I really am glad that "they don't make them like they use to."

Bottom line, CAN BUS ain't half bad. All the computers make a lot of stuff possible, including excellent fuel injections systems, which gives us a lot more HP than we use to get from the same sized engine.

Me, I'll take my chances with the new systems. Lets face it, even us old farts carry cell phones, and many have some sort of computer linked GPS systems.

Enjoy the ride, and keep the cell phone charged.

GAry

RIDERR1150GSADV
08-27-2007, 03:18 AM
To add some oil to the (debate) fire here...
On my summer trip to Prudhoe Bay I saw and heard of 4 R1200GSA's with the ring antenna issues. One guy fixed it as he had a spare, the 2nd bike needed a tow from Whithorse, Yukon to Edmonton, Alberta......:scratch ,one guy at West Fest in NM during the ADVrider meet and a friend of mine whose bike wouldn't start at the dealer...Not to mention 2 FD's and a transmission in Anchorage.
Please tell me that all that new tech is really needed on an bike that is touted as THE adventure bike.....:whistle
Besides the electronic issues it seems that final drives on the 1200 series bikes(both K and R) are failing faster than the 1150's ever did. Rob Nye is stuck in Canada as the latest victim of the new and improved final drive....

hass
08-27-2007, 06:05 AM
And progress is supposed to benefit me in the way of something...right. So what am I getting in my oilhead that I'm not in my airhead. More MPGs? Not...you just have to know how to tune airheads. More reliablility? Neither of them has left me stranded since I first bought a BMW in 1991.The reason manufacturers are adding much of this technology is to meet environmental restrictions in the EU. For example: Big bikes without fuel injection (i.e. with good old carburetors) cannot meet todays standards for exhaust emissions.

What you're benefitting from is a cleaner environment - even in Iceland!

srb
08-27-2007, 12:02 PM
"BMW is wondering how to get younger riders to ride BMW... I know something that will make BMW more attractive. Get ride of the damn computers."

Yeah, because we know the young folks don't care much for computers in their lives.

bpdougd
09-06-2007, 07:45 PM
Hey now,

A few comments.

First, every new BMW I have purchased came with three keys, two regular keys and one wallet sized spare. Where are your spare keys? That would tell you right off the bat if it was the key or the sensor.


Actually, not true in the U.S. for new bikes. This is one of my main gripes with BMW. My brand new 2007 R1200RT came with one "real" key and one wallet key. To get a second key with the fancy transmitter you have to shell out $62.00. Give me a break. I pay $20k for a bike and they nickel and dime me over a spare key?

regards
Doug Dickerson

cjack
09-06-2007, 07:55 PM
Actually, not true in the U.S. for new bikes. This is one of my main gripes with BMW. My brand new 2007 R1200RT came with one "real" key and one wallet key. To get a second key with the fancy transmitter you have to shell out $62.00. Give me a break. I pay $20k for a bike and they nickel and dime me over a spare key?

regards
Doug Dickerson

Hey. That's 620 dimes. Or 1240 nickles. Times 100,000 bikes equals how much?

bpdougd
09-08-2007, 02:33 AM
Hey. That's 620 dimes. Or 1240 nickles. Times 100,000 bikes equals how much?

Yeah, yeah, I know, spend $20k for a bike and bitch about pennies :D It's the pettiness that gets to me, like one dealer wanting to charge me $5.00 for a couple of metric nuts that I can get at Home Depot for 50 cents. (nota bene: The dealer where I bought my bike gave me some nuts and washers for a set of pegs I bought. So, the dealers vary but BMWNA is a pretty sorry outfit.)

Anyway, my RT is a great bike. I guess one reason I'm comfortable with the higher maintenance costs/burden is that I've owned a number of German cars and understand the inverse relationship between performance and drive-it-and-forget-it reliability. Everything costs something. What varies is the value delivered for the cost and when and how the costs are incurred.

Ride safe.

cjack
09-08-2007, 01:15 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know, spend $20k for a bike and bitch about pennies :D It's the pettiness that gets to me, like one dealer wanting to charge me $5.00 for a couple of metric nuts that I can get at Home Depot for 50 cents. (nota bene: The dealer where I bought my bike gave me some nuts and washers for a set of pegs I bought. So, the dealers vary but BMWNA is a pretty sorry outfit.)

Anyway, my RT is a great bike. I guess one reason I'm comfortable with the higher maintenance costs/burden is that I've owned a number of German cars and understand the inverse relationship between performance and drive-it-and-forget-it reliability. Everything costs something. What varies is the value delivered for the cost and when and how the costs are incurred.

Ride safe.

A former boss of mine was designing some electronics for one of the big three auto makers. It would have cost them 50 cents extra so it was rejected. That stuck in my mind.
BTW, my dealer stocks several thousand dollars worth of nuts, washers, and bolts. Most of which are peculiar to the motorcycle and show on the outside, so it matters what you use. They don't sell many per year and they are also a car dealer so it takes some pleading to allow the inventory. When you need a bolt...you need it. Follow your heart on helping your dealer make a couple dollars on this stuff. Seeing it from both sides helps me after spending 35 years in a University where the money didn't have to show a profit and the inventory didn't cost us 6% or more each year.
Ananother thing...I have seen the big three deny a warranty on a truck with 100 miles past the warranty and I have seen BMWNA warranty a final drive on an '85 K100LT in about the year 1999. In that case the crown gear lost a few teeth. No bearing issues there. NA felt that the weakness was built in the gear from the beginning and they stood behind it. I could go on and on about the goodwill warranties they honor so it they need a few bucks for an extra key and a tool kit that 65% of the owners loose or let rust away (my personal experience for data...ymmv) then hopefully they will put the money where it does more good.

deilenberger
09-08-2007, 09:37 PM
Diagnostic tools already available. Saw it demonstrated at the UN-Rally in Fayetteville, WV this week. Reads fault codes. The mfg is working on reading the data stream as well. Pretty nifty with a USB plug to connect to laptop.

User demonstrated various faults and the ability to erase codes from bike's memory.You can expect to see an article on such a tool - the GS-911 in next months Owners News if things keep on schedule (I submitted it about 2 months ago..) http://www.hexcode.co.za/

GS-911 is affordable, works with almost any laptop, and also available in a BlueTooth version, which can be used with a laptop OR a cell-phone if your phone is compatible. It's small enough that when I go on tour I just toss it in my laptop case, this ensuring I'll never ever need it (Eilenbergers Law #4 - Tools.. http://www.eilenberger.net/laws.htm).

I'm a big fan of the CanBus - the only thing BMW missed on it is offering up a switched circuit to power an accessory relay coil... although that is easily made up with the extension a second accessory plug.

Best,

Bud
09-08-2007, 09:43 PM
OK, I'll bite. What does CANBUS stand for?

I'm assuming it's something akin to the new mutil-plex wiring systems being used in semis?? If anything is late being draged into the new world, it's big trucks, and they have had it for a few years, now.

Gary

Can't tell you what it stands for but can tell you what it does.

There are 4 or 5 computers on the bikes (depending if you have the alarm system). The Canbus system allows these computers to talk to each other over a common wire. This is the 'single' wire that people tend to confuse with the other wiring on the bike.

So the computer that controls the ABS function can pass wheel RPM's to the computer that displays MPH as an example.

As pointed out above, the error codes are stored by the computer and can be read out by a relatively inexpensive reader as well as being reset by the user.

Allows quicker diagnosis of problems.

Bud
09-08-2007, 10:35 PM
UN-Rally tech session with Ken H. demonstrating the CANBUS code reader hooked up to laptop (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p154/oopezoo/UNrally_07/UNrally_07-025_Print.jpg)

Tom K.
09-09-2007, 09:57 PM
Can't tell you what it stands for but can tell you what it does.

There are 4 or 5 computers on the bikes (depending if you have the alarm system). The Canbus system allows these computers to talk to each other over a common wire. This is the 'single' wire that people tend to confuse with the other wiring on the bike.

So the computer that controls the ABS function can pass wheel RPM's to the computer that displays MPH as an example.

As pointed out above, the error codes are stored by the computer and can be read out by a relatively inexpensive reader as well as being reset by the user.

Allows quicker diagnosis of problems.

Also eliminates fuses and circuit breakers.
Tom

cjack
09-10-2007, 03:59 AM
Can't tell you what it stands for but can tell you what it does.

Controller Area Network. The protocol was developed by Intel and Bosch for the automotive industry in the '80s. BMW first used it in the 740. It sends 8 byte messages at a rate of 500K bits/sec using a twisted pair like a phone line with an impedance of around 120 ohms.

biketrax
09-11-2007, 05:27 AM
The other name for Marwhochi or better know as pot, hemp. Once an application is administered it has a tendency to become forgetful.:brow :scratch :wow

AntonLargiader
09-11-2007, 12:30 PM
Also eliminates fuses and circuit breakers.
Tom

Actually that part has little to do with the CAN bus. The chassis electrics controller (ZFE) acts like a circuit breaker for the circuits it controls. It could just as easily have been designed around fuses.

FredRydr
09-11-2007, 01:50 PM
The chassis electrics controller (ZFE)....Oh no! Not another mystery acronym.

So, I googled "ZFE canbus" and at the top of the list appears a thorough explanation (http://www.bmwra.org/otl/canbus/) by none other than Anton.

Fred

P.S. By the way, ZFE means Zentrale Fahrzeugelektronik, as if you didn't already know!