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Visian
10-14-2003, 12:04 PM
$200+ dollars to bleed the brakes on my K12RS is giving me heartburn.

Common wisdom says this can only be done by dealers with special tools.

Through an off-line conversation with a friendly dealer, I have learned that he only uses the special tools to force the pads apart in the calipers... and that the correct procedure calls for completely draining the system, flushing, refilling and working out the air.... a 4-hour process requiring 4-5 bottles of brake fluid.

Yougottabekidding!

I would be interested in knowing some better ways/accepted practices.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Ian

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=8225

LORAZEPAM
10-14-2003, 12:56 PM
Get a mighty vac for around 40.00. You can attach a reservoir to it and suck the fluid out of the bleeder with it. Just add fluid at the top till it changes color coning out, and shebang! You have drained the fluid. I am wondering what special tools besides a C clamp and screwdriver/prybar they need to change the pads?

Visian
10-14-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by lorazepam
Get a mighty vac for around 40.00.

Lorazepam... sorry, but this is very incorrect. In my research so far, I have learned that doing this will drain the servo-assist system... and leave it full of air. No doubt, a bad thing!

In fact, instead of sucking the fluid out, you must push the fluid back though the system. And, you must not only replace the fluid in the brakes, but in the servo circuit as well.

This much I've learned through inquiries in other on-line resources.

What I am hoping for here is some information from someone who has actually done the service, or possibly, some indication where one can get official instructions.

Thanks!

Ian

LORAZEPAM
10-14-2003, 01:57 PM
Oops, sorry for the bad information. I will have to get up close and personal with the new system to see what the changes are. I think it is a shame when engineers over complicate a simple device.

LORAZEPAM
10-14-2003, 02:00 PM
You can use the Mighty Vac to push fluid in as well, just reverse the hose connections, and turn the reservoir upside down so the fluid will run out of the tube it comes in during vacuum operation. I dont know if this will work for you, but I know the mighty vac is capable of performing this function. It is probably not that simple though.

Visian
10-14-2003, 02:23 PM
I've got a MighyVac... I use it on all my other bikes. It makes the whole brake fluid replacement process very simple to perform.

What I am not sure of is how to remove the fluid that is coming out as you push it backward through the system. From what I have learned via other sources, you remove the fluid from the reservoirs. This should be easy for the front brakes, however, it will be quite tricky to get the old fluid out of the rear master cylinder...

Then, of course, there is the challenge of bleeding the servo system.

Hopefully there are valid instructions on this somewhere in the world...

Ian

jdiaz
10-14-2003, 02:49 PM
Try emailing Stan Walker from IBMWR about it. I think he's had success bleeding the brakes on his R1150RT.

Or you could sell me that RS for $7500. :)

Visian
10-14-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by jdiaz
Or you could sell me that RS for $7500. :)

Hah! That would just about cover the cost of bleeding the brakes on that damned thing!

I can''t sell you the RS. The last time I saw you ride an RS was many moons ago at the Georgia Mountain Rally. I believe that you practically destroyed the belly pan on yours by riding it around the corners too fast.

And I simply can't stand to see good equipment abused! :rofl

Ian

fish
10-14-2003, 04:36 PM
Ian, there's another special tool that wasn't mentioned, and that's using Moditec to test the brakes after bleeding.

kbasa
10-14-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by fish
Ian, there's another special tool that wasn't mentioned, and that's using Moditec to test the brakes after bleeding.

Really!? What does it test?

Visian
10-14-2003, 07:59 PM
According to my mechanic, it tests for the presence of air in the system, and for proper function of all the sensors and the servo pump.

He said that he bleeds the system from about 8 different points, and definitely flushes things as per spec.

I think I am going to give up on doing this myself.

$200 to bleed brakes. Ouch! :banghead

Ian

jdiaz
10-15-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by Visian
I can''t sell you the RS. The last time I saw you ride an RS was many moons ago at the Georgia Mountain Rally. I believe that you practically destroyed the belly pan on yours by riding it around the corners too fast.

Scraping bodywork? No, that wasn't me.

That was the best riding weekend I ever had on my K1200RS tho. :bliss

Visian
10-15-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by jdiaz
That was the best riding weekend I ever had on my K1200RS tho. :bliss

Oh... this was *way* before the K12RS came out... I believe you were riding a Kblue K100 or K1100.... I am pretty danged sure it was you.

This was like, 1997 or so.

Ian

ps => next time you & Sue come to GMR, I will take you on some roads that will give you even greater "bliss".... just ask GJH & WP :D

jdiaz
10-15-2003, 01:22 PM
I had my K12RS at the '98 GMR, missed the '97 GMR with a wiring harness burnout on the way to the rally, had my R1100RT at the '96 event, etc etc. I'm pretty sure you are talking about '98.

http://homepage.mac.com/jondiaz_34/.Pictures/Bikes/k12rs.jpg

Visian
10-15-2003, 01:34 PM
OK... maybe it wasn't you... because we first met at the MOA National in Morganton... 96, after talking via IBMWR for a year or so more. Ancient history!

Coulda sworn it was you, though... I remember thinkin: "jeez... what an animal to grind down the bellypan on a K!"

Still won't sell you mine for $7500, although after seeing what a PITA it is to bleed the brakes on this sucker, I don't know.... :p

Ian

lancew
10-15-2003, 01:51 PM
Ian,

EVO= linked, right? How do you feel about the linked brakes, are they worth it? Or, ignoring the added service pain, are they useful?

I never saw the point in ABS on a bike, but have to admit I have warmed to the idea (mostly)... how do you feel about this new leap forward?

Visian
10-15-2003, 02:20 PM
Hi Lance -- EVO = linked + power assist.

The bike has an electrically-driven pump that boosts the brake, not 100% like power brakes in cars, but similar. It is an inter-relationship between boost and ABS. And they're linked, so pulling the front brake applies a proportion of rear brake, and vice-versa.

When you squeeze the front brake lever, you get more braking power than you expect... a little disconcerting at first, but easy to get used to.

My main difficulty with them (so far) relates to perceived emergency situations. I am an experience rider, and while I have no formal training, I practice a lot. I also have many years of dirt experience and am comforatable with the bike when it's not tracking in a straight line, or when it doesn't have 100% traction.

With normal brakes, in a "potential" emergency (I say potential because it isn't one quite yet, but could become one in the next instant) my instinct is to get all four fingers around that front brake level and be pulling on it... eliminating all play and ready to pull on it really hard if the situation deteriorates. The only thing I do with the rear is to use it to keep the rear wheel from passing the front. I can stop really, REALLY hard when I want to.

If you do this with the EVO brakes, you are going to be stopping, and stopping RIGHT NOW, and REALLY REALLY HARD. (Pretty impressive, in that respect)

This can be difficult if you ride the wide variety of bikes I do... everything from a /2 and airhead G/S to a K-bike. The EVO brakes make it somewhat more difficult to switch between bikes. Especially when instinct kicks in during an emergency situation.

The other hassle is that I use the rear brake in tight turns, especially in parking lots, to pull the bike around the turn. The first time I did this on the K12RS I nearly dropped it because the front brakes applied, too.

So... I can understand why many people like these things. I am lukewarm at the moment. They are an answer to a question that I wasn't asking. And I would absolutely hate these things off-road (although I am different than many other riders in that I tend to like ABS off-road).

Perhaps this is the first generation of this technology, and just like ABS I & II, it will refine over time. However, I sure hope that BMW makes this feature an option on future bikes.

Ian

kbasa
10-15-2003, 02:21 PM
I wasa a little skeptical, but after riding them, I'm convinced that the linked ABS setup is a Good Thing.

lancew
10-15-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Visian
...They are an answer to a question that I wasn't asking...



I read THAT loud & clear, ha! I actually had the parking-lot u-turns in mind when I asked. thanks

JERRY
10-15-2003, 06:38 PM
get a little off track here did we?

Visian
10-15-2003, 07:01 PM
Can you say "thread drift"...? I knew you could!

Frankly, I gave up trying to bleed these damned things myself!

lancew
10-15-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by jerry
get a little off track here did we?

sorry, sorry sorry... at least we're still talking about EVO brakes while we wait for someone who knows how to bleed 'em... my bad, sorry sorry sorry

fish
10-16-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by jerry
get a little off track here did we?

A couple of failed hijack attempts.


Personally, I like the integral ABS. Get the newest version possible. The first couple of iterations on the R1150RT were...um...suboptimal.

The newest brakes are pretty darn good, but yes...they are difficult to maintain in one's own garage.

RIDERR1150GSADV
10-16-2003, 08:46 PM
I have ABS on my truck and change the fluid anually and have never got air in the system. I just open the bleeder valve on a caliper, attach a tube to this and insert this in a jar with fluid. As the fluid level drops in the reservoir I add new so no air gets in. Am I missing something?
Should it not work this way on the beemer brakes?? :dunno
Just make sure that the reservoir is always topped up so no air can get in. The dirty stuff comes right out of the bottom and when it is clear I just tighten the bleedervalve .:bliss
I know that the EVO system is complicated but laws of physics still apply. It should be possible to change the fluid this way.
Just my 2 cts..

Visian
10-16-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by rider1150RT
I know that the EVO system is complicated but laws of physics still apply. It should be possible to change the fluid this way.

Rider -- complicated indeed. So complicated that if you only bleed the brakes, you don't bleed the servo-proportional-abs-linked-dowhatzy-in-the-middle-of-the-whole-works and you're hosed!

Trust me. This is a dealer job. At least until your warranty expires.

Ian

RIDERR1150GSADV
10-17-2003, 01:08 AM
All right ,I guess the dealer wins on this front. :banghead

pmdave
10-26-2003, 04:19 AM
I'm on record as disliking and refusing to buy a high zoot brake system on a motorcycle. So, I had been wondering if BMW would be offering a bike with "standard" brakes in the future. By a stroke of luck, I was able to purchase an '03 1150GS "Sport" model with independent unpowered, non-ABS brakes. It saved about 20 lbs, cost about $1500 less, and the brakes can be bled at home with the usual bleeders and common sense.

I know that's not much comfort to you owners of Integrated ABS brakes. But I know of more than one situation where a professional mechanic attempted to install new brake lines, and was eventually forced to admit bleeding defeat and take it to the BMW dealer to use the magic BMW tools and two hours of shop time. I think you should plan on having the dealer service your Integrated ABS brakes from now on.

Unfortunately, BMW has apparently dropped the GS "Sport" from the lineup. The standard R1150R may still be available. But the plan appears to be to have Integrated ABS on all bikes.

fish
10-26-2003, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by pmdave
Unfortunately, BMW has apparently dropped the GS "Sport" from the lineup. The standard R1150R may still be available. But the plan appears to be to have Integrated ABS on all bikes.


AFAIK, both the Boxer Cup Replika and Boxer Cup Prep do not have integral servo-assist ABS.

CABNFVR
11-18-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Visian
Rider -- complicated indeed. So complicated that if you only bleed the brakes, you don't bleed the servo-proportional-abs-linked-dowhatzy-in-the-middle-of-the-whole-works and you're hosed!

Trust me. This is a dealer job. At least until your warranty expires.

Ian
---
Just a few comments on the original thread topic:
EVO is the new 320 mm diameter rotor and calipers. EVO has nothing to do with Integral, which is what we're talking about here. The K12RS has partial Integral with EVO, while the R and KLT have Integral EVO (rear activates front. Glad I don't have that.) I (we) over at i-bmw.com are bleeding our own systems. The dealers, for the most part, don't really know how to do it anyway. The new ABS III (Intergral EVO) pump does not have the seperate chamber that ABS I and II had, so bleeding the system without introducing air does flush the entire system.
For my 2c, I'd perfer the Integral EVO ABS III a lot more if it actually produced best in class stopping distances, but it does not. What it does do is make it very difficult to swap between the BMW assisted brakes and a non-assisted bike. This actually make riding more dangerous. I can hardly wait for the 2008 steer by wire system.

GIZMO
11-18-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by rider1150RT
All right ,I guess the dealer wins on this front. :banghead

Why not have the dealer do it and you watch to see if you can pick up any tips and info? Also, do you have a service manual? A service manual will show the steps on how to do the job so you can determine if it is within your capabilities and resources. Just a thought.

Visian
11-18-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by CABNFVR
---
Just a few comments on the original thread topic:
EVO is the new 320 mm diameter rotor and calipers. EVO has nothing to do with Integral, which is what we're talking about here. The K12RS has partial Integral with EVO, while the R and KLT have Integral EVO (rear activates front. Glad I don't have that.)

Well... maybe we're talking semantics here, but I can tell you that when I apply the rear brakes on my 2002 K12RS, the fronts come on.

When I apply the front brake, the rear is also activated.

And I can tell you that my brakes are power-assisted, both front and rear.

Integral... EVO... I don't know... All I can tell you is it cost $132 to bleed my brakes. It would have cost more, but I was also getting something done under warranty that involved the removal of the side panels,, so I wasn't charged for that as part of the brake service.

Ian

ps => I looked at the procedure that "you" over at i-bmw.com are doing... there is no way that I am going to go through that much kludge factor... what a mess!

My brakes are bled... they work great (I can't attest for your dealer, but the people at BMW Motorcycles of Atlanta (http://www.bmwmcoa.com) really know what they're doing and it shows.

And you're right... going back and forth between bikes that have the new brakes and the old brakes is a major PITA.

CABNFVR
11-20-2003, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Visian
1) Well... maybe we're talking semantics here, but I can tell you that when I apply the rear brakes on my 2002 K12RS, the fronts come on. .....
2) ps => I looked at the procedure that "you" over at i-bmw.com are doing... there is no way that I am going to go through that much kludge factor... what a mess! ......
3) And you're right... going back and forth between bikes that have the new brakes and the old brakes is a major PITA.
---
1) Your front brake does not come on with your rear pedal. Nope, not on an RS.
2) What kludge? It's just a normal brake bleed, unless you introduce air, then you're (oops, can't say that over here).
3) Yep, huge difference in feel between our Ducati and the RS. Both good brakes, but way different.
---
"One outa three ain't bad"
Tim

p.s.
some light reading on ABS III (http://www.cannon-bmw.co.uk/htm/IntegralABS.htm)

Visian
11-20-2003, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by CABNFVR
---
1) Your front brake does not come on with your rear pedal. Nope, not on an RS.
2) What kludge? It's just a normal brake bleed, unless you introduce air, then you're (oops, can't say that over here).
3) Yep, huge difference in feel between our Ducati and the RS. Both good brakes, but way different.
---
"One outa three ain't bad"
Tim

1) You're right, I guess it's just the top-heavy nature of the bike because the first time I lightly applied the rear brake in a parking lot turn on the bike, I practically fell on my butt. It sure does have a powerful rear brake for such a small brake pad.

2) I found your procedure, and it appears that I got your it confused with one on another board (there are so many boards these days...). That procedure looked way more complex than yours. Yours does look messy and involves many rags. After looking at your write up, my only comment is that your procedure is not what my dealer's Master Tech showed me, which is the factory's recommended procedure. Given that the factory designed the system, I'll choose to follow their recommendation on my bike, thanks very much! :)

3) Yep.

Ian

azgman
12-01-2003, 12:24 AM
I switch between my '03 KLT and a '00 Concours all the time with no problem. I did put braided brake lines and more aggressive pads on the Concours, but I really don't find the integrated, servo-assisted, EVO brakes that much different than "regular" brakes except when you squeeze hard. When you do... you WILL stop!