F800st

[lorazepam]

Dang, I want one of these:

[RebeccaV]

I prefer the S version. This is a really hot bike.

[Colt03]

Word on the street is these won't be imported into the US in 2006. :(

[lorazepam]

That is a GOOD thing. It will have fewer bugs when it goes on sale in the USA if the Europeans have a year or so to sort it out first. Remember, the first version of ANY new BMW model is the Beta version, the one that has LOTS of problems. (This is because the New BMW follows Bill Gates' business model of letting the customers debug the products and charging them for the honor.)

How does bmw screw up a rotax motor (my favorite part) and belt drive? Seems to me unless they go all hog wild with the brakes and engine management, shouldht be much to go wrong.

[sgborgstrom]

Engine managment seems to be a problem for BMW. The fuel injected F650 is notorious for having surging/stalling issues (perhaps solved by the recent return to twin-sparkness) frequently solved by adding an aftermarket engine mgmt system like the techlusion.

Not to mention how many people have surging oilheads.

Why the K series has avoided these issues is a whole other line of questioning.

My exposure to non-US riders is minimal, I wonder if they have the same sorts of problems? Could it be the difference between US and European emissions laws?

Steve

[dbrick]

It is a good-looking bike...except for the saddlebags. Yeccch.

[MarkF]

It is a good-looking bike...except for the saddlebags. Yeccch.

I'm with ya! Maybe Givi or H&B bags will be sold for it. Is it just me or does this bike fill the K75S niche?

[dbrick]

Is it just me or does this bike fill the K75S niche? Yeah, and lighter too!

[kbasa]

*shrug*

Got a first year hexhead without a single problem. Same with the first year RT.

YMMV.

[cjack]

It is a good-looking bike...except for the saddlebags. Yeccch.
I like my bags. The H and B bags are sort of like Givi and stick out a ways.

[Boingo]

Hmmm…me want too!

Does anyone else think this is a strange place for the oil filter (see red arrow)? One errant rock and you would be peeing oil over everything.

[Mika]

Want to see it in person.

[BradfordBenn]

Lust is a horrible thing Loraz.

[dlearl476]

Want to see it in person.


Don't waste your time. Looks like crap. In fact, it's the first bike I remember seeing that looks worse than it's publicity shots.

The ST if pretty nice, if angular. (Not a big fan) The S, OTOH, looks like your "near total" was repaired and re-assembled by a chinese body shop with no instructions. Notice the headlight in the pic BG posted. It's not connected to the sides of the fairings. Not too noticable in the pic, but in real life it looks like a mistake. The left and right side panels look way out of proportion, as does the can.
To my eye, it also appears that there's 3" or 4" of uneeded wheelbase between the frame and the fork. Gives it a Praying Mantis look, like the CS. It gave me the impression of a grab-bag of styling ideas thrown together without much cohesion.

Overall it has the "built to a price" look that the fuel injected F's had, unlike the Aprilia built units, ie: pressed steel pieces with unsightly welds as opposed to cast alloy.
Then again, it might be a really nice little bike.

But there were at least 5 others that I would own before even considering the F800S. Like this one:

http://www.motoblog.it/uploads/7Q2F8931.jpg

Or this one:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/prowler2000/essais/pictures/Raptor650-3_small.jpg

Or this one:

http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/01082004/471658/motomorini-(1)_wa.jpg

Or far that matter, a garden variety S2R

[Mika]

Don't waste your time. Looks like crap. In fact, it's the first bike I remember seeing that looks worse than it's publicity shots...



I still want to see it in person but something tells me you are right.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Have you ever looked at a Ducati? They even put their oil coolers in front of the filter (in the same location) on some models.

Triumph S3's too...we had a few close calls on gravel roads this summer in WA...lol

[2whelman]

I want one. BUT, what I'm really lusting after is the GS model that they surely will make. Light, narrow, powerfull, smooth,....I'm drooling all over the place!
Throw a chain and knobbys on this and they won't be able to make enough of them.

[dlearl476]

>I want one. BUT, what I'm really lusting after is the GS model that they surely will make. Light, narrow, powerfull, smooth,....I'm drooling all over the place!


Then what you REALLY want is this:
http://www.motoblog.it/uploads/bmw_supermoto.jpg

IMHO, a GS version of the F800 would be none of those things, save maybe smooth. Would you seriously want a HEAVIER off-road bike than a F650GS? IMHO, several manufacturers already make a DS that would be better than an F800GS. A Cagiva Gran Canyon comes immediately to mind.

[knary]

>I want one. BUT, what I'm really lusting after is the GS model that they surely will make. Light, narrow, powerfull, smooth,....I'm drooling all over the place!


Then what you REALLY want is this:
http://www.motoblog.it/uploads/bmw_supermoto.jpg

IMHO, a GS version of the F800 would be none of those things, save maybe smooth. Would you seriously want a HEAVIER off-road bike than a F650GS? IMHO, several manufacturers already make a DS that would be better than an F800GS. A Cagiva Gran Canyon comes immediately to mind.

Don't get hung up on "off road". I, for one, am interested in something between the big GS and the little GS. Am I looking for an off road bike? No, not particularly. But a bike designed to travel to remote places on roads that may or may not be paved is always appealling. Make it light, peppy, and give it good range. While you're at it toss in the durability of a Rotax engine and the comfort of a BMW.

[username]

Hmmm…me want too!

Does anyone else think this is a strange place for the oil filter (see red arrow)? One errant rock and you would be peeing oil over everything.

that's not an oil filter, it's a FLIR. ;)

[kbasa]

Japanese inline fours have typically had their oil filter located there since about 1970.

Total non issue.

[2whelman]

The Super Motard version looks cool, and would be a blast on the street. But I am on the same page as Knary, a mid size GS. I would have no problem with a little more weight than a 650 with the extra horses supplied by the 800. You could throw a big tank on it and still be much lighter than a current GS1200.

And of course, the HP version of a GS800 is intoxicating to me. You will see this version winning some serious rallies some day soon, if they build it.

[dlearl476]

>But a bike designed to travel to remote places on roads that may or may not be paved is always appealling.

http://www.triumphnet.com/st/pics/stcontest/2001/55-s.jpg

Make it light, peppy, and give it good range. While you're at it toss in the durability of a Rotax engine and the comfort of a BMW.


Triumph already makes that bike:

http://www.triumph.co.uk/images/TIGER_BLUE.jpg

[jdiaz]

Hmmm…me want too!

Does anyone else think this is a strange place for the oil filter (see red arrow)? One errant rock and you would be peeing oil over everything.
Actually, I thought their oil cooler design was pretty robust looking. Not your standard radiator.

[kbasa]

Hey, you got any more decent closeups of those bikes?

[jdiaz]

Hey, you got any more decent closeups of those bikes?
I've got this......

[jdiaz]

And this.....

[MarkF]

Triumph already makes that bike:

http://www.triumph.co.uk/images/TIGER_BLUE.jpg

Yeah, and you can get one with panniers for under $10k! Ummmmmm.....

[jdiaz]

And of course this......the Darrylri "hi-speed money" shot. :laugh

[username]

And of course this......the Darrylri "hi-speed money" shot. :laugh

careful, this could easily become a caption contest photo! :D

[knary]

>But a bike designed to travel to remote places on roads that may or may not be paved is always appealling.

http://www.triumphnet.com/st/pics/stcontest/2001/55-s.jpg

Make it light, peppy, and give it good range. While you're at it toss in the durability of a Rotax engine and the comfort of a BMW.


Triumph already makes that bike:

http://www.triumph.co.uk/images/TIGER_BLUE.jpg

:ha :ha

You're kidding, right? The Tiger is a great bike, but light it isn't. Then again, neither is my 1150GS. Either way, you can take nearly any bike down any road. Some are just better in certain environments.

[dlearl476]

411 lbs (800S) vs 474 lbs (Tiger) isn't enough of a difference for me to volunteer to be a BMW beta tester. YMMV

[knary]

411 lbs (800S) vs 474 lbs (Tiger) isn't enough of a difference for me to volunteer to be a BMW beta tester. YMMV

psst... those are the manufacturers listed dry weights. What they weigh on planet Earth is a whole other question.

[dlearl476]

>psst... those are the manufacturers listed dry weights.

Granted. And I'm sure BMW is every bit as dishonest about it as Triumph. But Given the Triumph is a much taller bike, it may very well FEEL heavier. But as far as I'm concerned, these two are in pretty much the same weight class. We're not talking a 500 lb sport tourer vs 300 lb dirt bike here.

[grasslander]

Ok, I get the F650. Always have.

I've been waiting for a discussion of the F800. Maybe you'all have some revelations on this topic.

Sorry BMW, I don't get the why. What are you doing building a vertical twin based machine? Especially since it's not even a half a K12S! Is it 'cause you can offer another model without using manufacturing capacity for another engine? Maybe it's just because you can. If it's not as cheap as a Triumph why bother.

Puzzled....

[sgborgstrom]

Did someone say vertical twin?
http://www.triumph.co.uk/media/Scrambler_3_800x600.jpg

....oh, for some disposable income....

Steve

[dlearl476]

As cool as the T-Scrambler is, I liked this Derbi a lot more. There were a BUNCH of cool Triumph Specials at the Milan show. Soon I'll have the pics up here. (http://www.diyhomegarage.com/igallery/viewer.php?album=albums/EICMA&pn=1)

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/images/DerbiMilan2005%20001_edited.jpg

[dlearl476]

That this is the highest volume thread ever in the F650 forum!

[kbasa]

That this is the highest volume thread ever in the F650 forum!

:ha

What's the general take on this bike over on F650.com?

[MarkF]

Did someone say vertical twin?

Steve

Make mine blue, please.

[dlearl476]

:ha

What's the general take on this bike over on F650.com?


Lots of interest. Lots of moaning from the inseam challenged who were hoping for a shorter seat height. (and apparently no "lowered" option)
Lots of folks, like me, are into mid-displacement bikes (that's why we ride 650s) and although I'm not a real fan of the styling, I think this parallel twin is an exciting addition to the BMW line.
I do have a feeling we're gonna be left out in the cold on the ST, though. Just like the R850.

[Kenny2]

Have you ever looked at a Ducati? They even put their oil coolers in front of the filter (in the same location) on some models.


I thought it was very nice of Ducati to put a deflector infront of the cylinder like that.. ;)

[lorazepam]

Lots of interest. Lots of moaning from the inseam challenged who were hoping for a shorter seat height. (and apparently no "lowered" option)
Lots of folks, like me, are into mid-displacement bikes (that's why we ride 650s) and although I'm not a real fan of the styling, I think this parallel twin is an exciting addition to the BMW line.
I do have a feeling we're gonna be left out in the cold on the ST, though. Just like the R850.

I hope not, That is the bike I see joining my stable in the future.

[HiFiGuy]

I must say these two models are EXACTLY what the doctor ordered. I am so excited to see BMW embrace the reality that many riders young and old are looking for smaller, lighter bikes with zippy performance and all day comfort.

The F800S reminds me of my Ducati Monster S2R in terms of weight and performance estimates. BMW seem to have taken all that was good about the CS, put in a proper motor making proper power, and designed it to be attractive a wide variety of riders. Add in a strong line of BMW performance and convenience accessories and the S should be a hot little bike.

The F800ST is PERFECT. Finally BMW have seen the light. How many times have I been tempted by Honda's VFR? How many current BMW owners do I know that also own VFRs? The answer to both questions is Lots and Lots. Thank you BMW for finally answering our prayers. A small, lightweight, sport touring bike with most of the comfort and convenience features of the larger RT. This is it, the perfect middleweight sport touring bike. You have ticked all the boxes.
Two Cylinders - check
Under 500 Lbs - check
Decent Performance - check (85 HP)
Enviro friendly - check (60MPG, fuel injection, catalyst)
Center Stand - check
Belt Drive - check (shaft would have been OK too, just no messy chains)
Side Cases & Luggage Rack - check
ABS, Heated Grips, Heated Seat - check, check, and check
Decent wind protection that still looks sporty and fun - check

The only unknowns are when will it hit our shores and how much? If priced properly, marketed well, and if the dealers will actually stock and sell them the F800 series of bikes should be a hit here in the states. Nothing would kill the F800 series faster than pricing them too far above their real competition or dealers who do not understand or support the new model.

The F800ST looks to be the perfect bike for my needs and wants, I can't wait to demo the bike, and put my deposit down.

Brian Miller
:: 1978 BMW R100RS
:: 2005 BMW F650CS
:: 2005 Ducati Monster S2R

[dlearl476]

>The F800ST looks to be the perfect bike for my needs and wants, I can't wait to demo the bike, and put my deposit down.

I don't want to seem pessimistic but it's been quite some time since "riders wants and needs" were a part of BMW marketing plans. They're now selling a "lifestyle" and targeting new customers, not returning ones. They want to sell "legendary motorcycles of Germany" image for BMWs, at least here in the US, and I don't think a mid-level touring bike fits in. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the ST is going to be a Euro only model.

[knary]

>The F800ST looks to be the perfect bike for my needs and wants, I can't wait to demo the bike, and put my deposit down.

I don't want to seem pessimistic but it's been quite some time since "riders wants and needs" were a part of BMW marketing plans. They're now selling a "lifestyle" and targeting new customers, not returning ones. They want to sell "legendary motorcycles of Germany" image for BMWs, at least here in the US, and I don't think a mid-level touring bike fits in. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the ST is going to be a Euro only model.

:dunno

They're selling more bikes than ever in the states. With the addition of the new models, we're getting more and more choices. Instead of one engine, we'll soon have the choice between four and their related models. More and more riders are joining the fold. Are they all sheeple? Some I suppose are. By the measure of marketing plans, would you have guessed that they would have sold the F650CS here? They even, briefly, tried selling the R850R - a bike that made little sense here with the absense of tiered licensing. I'd expect to see the ST. Will it last? will it sell? I don't know. The F650GS and Dakar have, IIRC, sold reasonable well.

[dlearl476]

>would you have guessed that they would have sold the F650CS here?

Absolutely. The F650 line was/is the best selling line in Europe in several years. The only bike that comes close is the RXXGS. IIRC, one year they sold 4 times as many Fs as RT's. I haven't seen the US sales figures, but I imagine they sell a ton of Fs. The week I bought mine, the dealer sold 6, and one used R100RT.

I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to see the F800s in the US. I think there are a lot of people that would buy them. I just have my doubts about whether BMW-NA thinks that as well. But then, I think there are a lot of people who would buy Veradero's and Africa Twins in America, which shows you exactly what I know. :blah

[HiFiGuy]

Yes, my wife loves her F650CS and I adore my Ducati Monster S2R that is "only" 800CCs and still tons of fun for me. There is something about the middleweight bike class that simply does it for me. I do not dislike the bigger bikes... they are fun to ride. I simply enjoy the flexibility, fun, and economy of a middlewight more.

I also feel that I can actually explore the limits of a 790cc Triumph, 800cc Ducati, and hopefully an 800cc BMW. With the biger faster models like the K1200s and K1200R the limits are so high you could land in jail or in a ditch at half-throttle. I'm not saying they are not fun bikes, not saying thay are great bikes. I simply prefer the smaller displacement bikes... they suit me better.

In the Yamahondazukawi world the 600cc class is seen as being just as important as the 1000cc class. Ducati, Guzzi, and Triumph seem to understand the need for middleweights too as all three field bikes in the 600cc to 850cc range. Hopefully BMWNA will come to their senses us and give us teh bikes we want... not just the bikes thay want us to have.

[snowcat]

I'm very cofused with BMWs letter system.
Shouldn't this bike be a K800?
I still don't understand why they used a K for the new transverse inline 4 (K1200s/r)
But now with this twin (is it a ROTAX?) looking like the new 4 with 2 cylinders missing, a'la K100/K75.
Why the F moniker?
Dave
88k75C
114474

[HiFiGuy]

I agree, calling the new K a K seems a stretch. I also see where the F800 line could be sold as a smaller-displacement version of the K line. Might make some sense too but...

- A lot of R bike owners stay away from K bikes yet will buy an F650GS/CS so maybe BMW doesn't want to eliminate R bike die-hards from buying simply by consolidating the new bikes into the K line.

- The K bikes have all been shaft drive (if memory serves) while the F bikes have been Belt Drive or Chain Drive. This seems to be a "feature" of the F bike line (rumors of a chain drive K1200S "HP" not withstanding)

- The K bikes have used "real" BMW engines and while not to many K & F bike owners may care, I bet someone inside BMW is happy to make the distinction.

- Has there ever been a GS version of a K bike? Might be easier to sell an F650GS owner or an R1200GS owner an F800GS than a K800GS... even if it was the same bike.

Anyway, just some ideas why BMW may not have elected to call the new F bikes K bikes. We all know the F engine is not really related to the K engine (other than some input from BMW on the combustion chamber and head design).

However if BMW were to market the F800 as the K800, little brother to the K1200 I doubt anyone other than the hardcore would pick nits. It may even be easier to sell. Someone comes in to look at a K1200S or K1200GT and decides those bikes are simply too expensive. They end up leaving with a K800S or K800ST and maybe in a few years they'll trade up. A lot easier for the dealer to upsale K-Bike to K-Bike than having an F800 owner coming in looking for more and then agonizing over R bikes, K-Bikes, or the competition.

Maybe as the new models roll out we'll see the wisdom (or folly) in BMW's naming archetecture.

[kbasa]

I'm starting to think the F moniker goes with a displacement range and weight.

[dlearl476]

I'm starting to think the F moniker goes with a displacement range and weight.


I've heard the "F" is from a German word for "Upright" or "Vertical", although I don't speak German so I can't confirm.


>But now with this twin (is it a ROTAX?)


Yes, it's manufactured by Rotax to BMW's specifications, as was the 650 CC mill.

[MarkF]

I'm very cofused with BMWs letter system.
Shouldn't this bike be a K800?
I still don't understand why they used a K for the new transverse inline 4 (K1200s/r)
But now with this twin (is it a ROTAX?) looking like the new 4 with 2 cylinders missing, a'la K100/K75.
Why the F moniker?


I agree. BMW Should have picked a new letter for the new K bike or at least called the new K1200GT a K1200ST. Too confusing! I'm OK with the F800 though because there were both 3 and 4 cyl K bikes.

[HiFiGuy]

This unofficial pricing has been posted on a few other sites.
Enjoy,

----------------------------------------

From our German friends - totally unofficial currently:

F800S:
Base Price: 8450 Euros ($9,990)
ABS: 690 Euros ($810)
Heated grips: 190 Euros ($225)
White Signals: 35 Euros ($40)
Anti-Theft: 180 Euros ($210)

F800ST:
Base Price: 9150 Euros ($10,750)
ABS: 690 Euros ($810)
Heated grips: 190 Euros ($225)
White Signals: 35 Euros ($40)
Anti-Theft: 180 Euros ($210)
Front Column: 180 Euros ($210)

So, assuming that these prices are of some indication on what we would see here, who would be down with an F800 starting under $10k?

[kbasa]

This unofficial pricing has been posted on a few other sites.
Enjoy,

----------------------------------------

From our German friends - totally unofficial currently:

F800S:
Base Price: 8450 Euros ($9,990)
ABS: 690 Euros ($810)
Heated grips: 190 Euros ($225)
White Signals: 35 Euros ($40)
Anti-Theft: 180 Euros ($210)

F800ST:
Base Price: 9150 Euros ($10,750)
ABS: 690 Euros ($810)
Heated grips: 190 Euros ($225)
White Signals: 35 Euros ($40)
Anti-Theft: 180 Euros ($210)
Front Column: 180 Euros ($210)

So, assuming that these prices are of some indication on what we would see here, who would be down with an F800 starting under $10k?


In. I think it'll replace the R1150R perfectly in both our garage and the BMW lineup.

[lorazepam]

In. I think it'll replace the R1150R perfectly in both our garage and the BMW lineup.

I am IN too.. I dont understand why folks dont think an 800 would be good enough to tour on. Seems the "bigger is better" theme has convinced folks that you need at least a 1 liter bike to have any power.
I have owned cages with less hp than the 800 delivers.

[kbasa]

Indeed, Loraz.

80hp/400 pounds sounds plenty perky to me. By comparison, my VFR and GS are both right about 100hp/500 pounds.

[Mika]

In. I think it'll replace the R1150R perfectly in both our garage and the BMW lineup.

Remains to be seen. Ergonomics of the larger bike are important for someone my size. I am interested in a machine with those numbers, but want to be abe to do nore than short haul riding with it.

[SHUNK]

I really like the looks of th F800, and it seems like that would be enough power, my problem is the physical dimensions of the bike. At 6'2" with a 50" chest, I need a little bigger bike to "spread out" on. :brow

[cjack]

I really like the looks of th F800, and it seems like that would be enough power, my problem is the physical dimensions of the bike. At 6'2" with a 50" chest, I need a little bigger bike to "spread out" on. :brow

A friend of mine and his wife rode from Illinois to Oregon a few years ago, they are in their '70s and she rode an R26, he an R100RT. She said that he went too slow.

[Bigrider]

I really like the looks of th F800, and it seems like that would be enough power, my problem is the physical dimensions of the bike. At 6'2" with a 50" chest, I need a little bigger bike to "spread out" on. :brow
I'm 6'2" also. Its not the dimensions at the chest, its the diameter a little lower above the belt that concerns me. :buds

Dave H

Colorado Springs, Co

[SHUNK]

I thought it was more aerodynamic to have a "rounded" torso! :D

Those guys with the flat stomachs have to be creating more drag!!!!

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

A friend of mine and his wife rode from Illinois to Oregon a few years ago, they are in their '70s and she rode an R26, he an R100RT. She said that he went too slow.

I am 6'2" with a 49" chest and I ride my wife's 650 GSA...it feels okay, I would change the seat is all if it were mine. Otherwise a great bike and pulss me around and then some.

[mik4160]

Looks like it will nicely fill the huse gap between the 650 and everyting else! Hope its affordable though. :sick

[knary]

Ok. I want one. I want one. Did I mention that I want one?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/040406_top.jpg

It sounds like a delicious machine.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/04april06_bmw_f800st.htm

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2006models/2006-BMW-F800STa-small.jpg

[tessler]

It sounds like a delicious machine.Dude, how many motorcycles have you eaten before?

[Boingo]

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/040406_side1.jpg

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/04april06_bmw_f800st.htm

I can't wait to test ride this.

[dlearl476]

[QUOTE=knary]Ok. I want one. I want one. Did I mention that I want one?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/040406_top.jpg
QUOTE]


Knary, wait 'till you see one in person. It's very cleverly disquised in the publicity photos, but those left and right fairing panels are not attached to the headlight piece. Can't tell it in the pics, but in person it honestly looks like someone wanted a fairing, went to a junkyard and picked up a couple of panels that looked close, and zip-tied them on. It's hard to tell even in the pic I took in Milan, but if you notice the guy on the right side of the bike (bending over with the white shirt on) that gap between headlight and panel is about an inch wide

It looks more integrated on the ST than the S, but IMHO they both miss the mark, styling wise.

[kbasa]

[QUOTE=knary]Ok. I want one. I want one. Did I mention that I want one?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/040406_top.jpg
QUOTE]


Knary, wait 'till you see one in person. It's very cleverly disquised in the publicity photos, but those left and right fairing panels are not attached to the headlight piece. Can't tell it in the pics, but in person it honestly looks like someone wanted a fairing, went to a junkyard and picked up a couple of panels that looked close, and zip-tied them on. It's hard to tell even in the pic I took in Milan, but if you notice the guy on the right side of the bike (bending over with the white shirt on) that gap between headlight and panel is about an inch wide

It looks more integrated on the ST than the S, but IMHO they both miss the mark, styling wise.

It seems to fit with the panels on the RT that appear to float away from the main bodywork.

[knary]

Dude, how many motorcycles have you eaten before?

Too many. :D

[dlearl476]

It seems to fit with the panels on the RT that appear to float away from the main bodywork.


True, but it's kinda like the Baldwins, the same traits that look good on Alec just make Steven look like a dunce.

[kbasa]

True, but it's kinda like the Baldwins, the same traits that look good on Alec just make Steven look like a dunce.

I think they look kind of Frank Gehry-ish to me. They've got a sense of deconstruction that seems to lead to a feeling of speed, at least on the bikes. Maybe not so much for a house. :ha


http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/jpg/GehryHome.jpg

[dlearl476]

I think they look kind of Frank Gehry-ish to me. They've got a sense of deconstruction that seems to lead to a feeling of speed, at least on the bikes. Maybe not so much for a house. :ha


Wait 'til you see the 800 in person (if you haven't already). You might agree that the concept isn't executed as well as it is on the bigger bikes.

I think it's also analogous to the "wedge" design that was popular on '70s cars (for about 15 minutes). Bertone's Fiat X-19? Yeah, right on. Triumph's TR-7? Uh, not so much.

[knary]

Wait 'til you see the 800 in person (if you haven't already). You might agree that the concept isn't executed as well as it is on the bigger bikes.

I think it's also analogous to the "wedge" design that was popular on '70s cars (for about 15 minutes). Bertone's Fiat X-19? Yeah, right on. Triumph's TR-7? Uh, not so much.

I haven't seen it in the flesh. I hope I like it. I've seen enough spy shots to think we're talking more about personal taste. In the photos, I like how the panels are so simple and direct in their execution. I like how they seem to float. I like their angularity against the rugged functionality of the rest of the machine.

Considering how divided people are on, for example, the RT, I expect a similar division on these bikes.

p.s. to my eyes, the X-19 and the TR-7 are both fugly. Comparing them is like comparing two kinds of poop.

[knary]

It seems to fit with the panels on the RT that appear to float away from the main bodywork.

How do clean that RT with all those nooks and crannies?

[dlearl476]

How do clean that RT with all those nooks and crannies?

I don't know for sure, but I think you'll need a torx driver. :cry

[dlearl476]

Comparing them is like comparing two kinds of poop.


Exactly why it's germain to the discussion of modern BMW "styling", IMHO.
BMW's used to exude the same kind of "classic" styling as a 3 button cashmere blazer or a waxed cotton Barbour overcoat. Equally stylish in 1935 as 2006. Nowadays, they've gone all polyester leisure suit and Neru jacket.

[knary]

Exactly why it's germain to the discussion of modern BMW "styling", IMHO.
BMW's used to exude the same kind of "classic" styling as a 3 button cashmere blazer or a waxed cotton Barbour overcoat. Equally stylish in 1935 as 2006. Nowadays, they've gone all polyester leisure suit and Neru jacket.

When? 1967?! :ear :lol

Since the days of the early K-bikes, the styling has evolved - sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Outside of perhaps HD and some other specific bikes by a few brands (e.g. Triumph Bonneville), no major brand has pursued some model of "classic" styling. The closest BMW came to this rule is by being slow to update their styles - though it should be noted that when they have, the new designs were rarely "classic". Consider the early reviews of everything from the K75S to the R1100RS to the K1200R.

It's a tough line to walk for the maker of any styled product. If they push too hard, some of the designs will provoke the wrong reaction in some of their customers. But if they don't push it enough, the product might provoke no reaction or worse tell the customers that the product is behind the times. The hope, of course, is that the design will provoke more positive than negative, telling the public that you're an innovator and getting them to hand over their money. Very few designs age well enough to defy placing the product at a certain time. The apparent exceptions are those designs based on nostalgia but even then, the design can't help but date itself.

This bike, IMO, looks like it will be a winner for BMW (remembering that we are not their primary market).

[dlearl476]

Very few designs age well enough to defy placing the product at a certain time. .

Classic design vs. Fad The best instance I can think of is 911 vs Z car. Look at one of each from, say, '75-'80. Funny you should mention the K bike. People are often surprised that my RT is a '94. Even more so when I tell them they came out in '86 (IIRC, or '88)
Another prime example is late model Chryslers. Sure that Charger RT looks nice, but look at the cars from the advent of the "cab forward" design era, which looked GREAT when they came out, compared to a similar year BMW. One looks like an old american car, the other could be this years model. And IMHO, it's much more than simply longer product cycles.


This bike, IMO, looks like it will be a winner for BMW (remembering that we are not their primary market)


I totally agree. But sadly, IMHO, it's gonna be in spite of it's design rather than partially due to it. And ten years from now, I predict it will look horribly dated.

[MCMXCIVRS]

I'm trying to convince my wife that the F800ST is the sportier bike shes been looking for to be a stable mate for her Bonneville. She's agreeing with me (rare event). All I can say is that if BMW had taken this styling stance with the R1200ST, I'd have been riding one now for sure. This is a way better looking machine. I like the longer fairing of the F800ST, and the fairing mounted mirrors. And the headlight looks normal.

Heck, maybe we can get a deal on two of them.

[knary]

Classic design vs. Fad The best instance I can think of is 911 vs Z car. Look at one of each from, say, '75-'80. Funny you should mention the K bike. People are often surprised that my RT is a '94. Even more so when I tell them they came out in '86 (IIRC, or '88)
Another prime example is late model Chryslers. Sure that Charger RT looks nice, but look at the cars from the advent of the "cab forward" design era, which looked GREAT when they came out, compared to a similar year BMW. One looks like an old american car, the other could be this years model. And IMHO, it's much more than simply longer product cycles.

The Datsun Z? THAT is a beautiful little car. As is the 911. But comparing them really isn't fair, is it? They were two very different cars priced, designed and built for two different markets.

I'll refrain from offering my view of the K75RT's design. :D

I totally agree. But sadly, IMHO, it's gonna be in spite of it's design rather than partially due to it. And ten years from now, I predict it will look horribly dated.

Calling them faddish suggests that the designs lack any cohesion over a series of models and years. It also suggests that they've following someone else's design lead. Neither is true. The floating panels, as Kbasa mentioned, fits neatly with the new RT. The RT, in turn, follows the lead paved by the GS and BMW's automotive division. There is cohesion in what BMW is presenting. And these bikes are clearly, within the scope of their latest style approach, BMW's. Though form guided by performance is pushing all bikes towards some similarities of form (like a porpoise and a penguin and a shark), that F800S doesn't look like a Honda or a Ducati. Neither does the R12S or certainly the K12GT.

In the end, all you're telling us is that you don't like the designs BMW is coming up with today. That's one opinion. My own is that their designs are, with few exceptions (no one bats a 1000), getting better and better. These are just opinions. Which, in the end, is sort of my point.

[kbasa]

The Datsun Z? THAT is a beautiful little car. As is the 911. But comparing them really isn't fair, is it? They were two very different cars priced, designed and built for two different markets.

I'll refrain from offering my view of the K75RT's design. :D



Calling them faddish suggests that the designs lack any cohesion over a series of models and years. It also suggests that they've following someone else's design lead. Neither is true. The floating panels, as Kbasa mentioned, fits neatly with the new RT. The RT, in turn, follows the lead paved by the GS and BMW's automotive division. There is cohesion in what BMW is presenting. And these bikes are clearly, within the scope of their latest style approach, BMW's. Though form guided by performance is pushing all bikes towards some similarities of form (like a porpoise and a penguin and a shark), that F800S doesn't look like a Honda or a Ducati. Neither does the R12S or certainly the K12GT.

In the end, all you're telling us is that you don't like the designs BMW is coming up with today. That's one opinion. My own is that their designs are, with few exceptions (no one bats a 1000), getting better and better. These are just opinions. Which, in the end, is sort of my point.

I've heard David Robb speak a couple times and in each case he went to great lengths to explain that a BMW should look like a BMW and nothing else. He always uses the example of seeing a friend of yours with the sun behind him (or her). You can tell by the stance, or the way they hold their arm or the proportions of their shoulders that it's them, even though you can't see their features. He wants BMW to be the same way. You look at them and know, instantly, that it's a BMW. I think they've been successful with both the cars and the bikes. Notice that the cars have heavily contoured surfaces; flame contour or something, I believe. The bikes are using the same kind of contouring of the surfaces to define the marque's design.

It's a challenging look, I think, because there's nobody else doing anything like it. The Japanese are recycling the same shapes over and over (with the notable exception of Yamaha), Aprilia and Ducati are mining the house of angularity and Tamburini at MV is reworking the 916 again on the Agustas. Triumph is working on a version of the latest Japanese riffs in their sportbikes and playing their own style stuff as retro with the twins. HD? I think we all know the story there. KTMs are just too slab sided and disjointed looking to me to be pretty or interesting, though I'd really like to like them.

In my opinion, the only folks really moving motorcycle design ahead (or car design, for that matter) are the guys at BMW. (Possible exception: Ford. That new Fusion is a very handsome little car, as is the Five Hundred.)

Lots of folks won't like them because they're so far out there, but I think in ten years, we'll see these vehicles as the harbingers of new design they are. Other manufacturers are already working off of BMW's riffs in the car world. Acura has a car with a trunk bustle lifted straight off the 7 series. The Subaru B9 has some interesting contours on the bodywork that really separate it from anything Soobie has done before.

Trust me on this. Design starts by looking bold and then looking boring. I think this stuff will stay fresh for a long time.

[Burnszilla]

This bike gets better and better...
I think I'm going to let the ATGATT rule slip this time..

http://raptorsandrockets.com/images/BMWMilan2005004_edited.jpg

Hmmm..
http://raptorsandrockets.com/images/BikebabesMilan2005%20009_edited.jpg

[tessler]

This bike gets better and better...
Look at the baggage on this one.
Dude. :cry

[Burnszilla]

Dude. :cry
My aplolgies..before i posted the image i thought it had the bags on it.. so i changed my comment... that was the GT..

http://raptorsandrockets.com/images/BMWMilan2005006_edited.jpg

[Burnszilla]

http://raptorsandrockets.com/images/2006_BMW_F800S_launch_2rb.jpg
I think I'm going to put a patent out on the F800 oil filter protector.

[85138]

Could well be my next bike. Maybe it's a good thing it's not coming stateside til next year.

Got my eye on the Triumph Daytona 675 too but whatever pragmatist there is in me says it's too 'Sport' specific. Now what to do about the R1200C or '95 DUC SSCR. If only the wife wouldn't kibash having a 3rd. Honey it's not like I'd get any money for the DUC.

[dlearl476]

It's a challenging look, I think, because there's nobody else doing anything like it. The Japanese are recycling the same shapes over and over (with the notable exception of Yamaha), Aprilia and Ducati are mining the house of angularity and Tamburini at MV is reworking the 916 again on the Agustas. Triumph is working on a version of the latest Japanese riffs in their sportbikes and playing their own style stuff as retro with the twins.


Trust me on this. Design starts by looking bold and then looking boring. I think this stuff will stay fresh for a long time.

I disagree. IMHO, the styling of every partially faired or fully faired motorcycle since the Aprilia Futura is, to some extent, F-117/B-2 derived. David Robb, once again IMHO, has defined the outer edge of the box and taken the genre to it's least aesthetically pleasing limit. To my eye, the R6, 1050 SprintST, Daytona 675 are all watered down versions of the same design. We are now in the "Stealth" age, and just like the "Streamline Age", the "Jet Age" and the "Atomic Age" that preceeded them, the most exagerated examples of the style turn out to be caricatures of themselves when tastes move on.


In the end, all you're telling us is that you don't like the designs BMW is coming up with today.

Actually, I think it's quite possible my motocycle styling sensiblility stopped with the '99-2002 Sprint ST, Duc 996, and MV F4, K1200S, R1100S. I'm now going backwards. When I get my '69 Ducati Scrambler finished, I think I'm going to buy it's modern grandson, the HyperMotard. Yes, I'm finished with BMW. I really can't see myself ever buying anything that isn't Italian.

[dlearl476]

The Datsun Z? THAT is a beautiful little car.



http://www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/photos/93000/93047.1979.Datsun.280Z.jpg


:dunno :dunno :bottle

[kbasa]

http://www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/photos/93000/93047.1979.Datsun.280Z.jpg


:dunno :dunno :bottle

The original. Not the various poorly derived permutations that came later. The 1970 still looks terrific to my eye. The later models, including the 260Z, have aged less well, I think.

[knary]

The original. Not the various poorly derived permutations that came later. The 1970 still looks terrific to my eye. The later models, including the 260Z, have aged less well, I think.

:nod

And an absolute hoot to drive.