1200GS or 1200RT Height

[The Fisherman]

I'm new at this so if much has been written forgive me. After being away from riding for 35 years I just got an 05 650 GS. I thought it would be a compromise to help me get back into riding. It is a nice bike and I will ride it for a couple more months. At which time I want to get a bigger bike and start taking some longer road trips. However I am uncertain how important it is for both feet to be comfortably on the ground when stopped. I am 5' 10'' and have a 30" inseam. With the GS I feel like my legs are slightly too short when sitting on the bike. Is this a serious handicap? Will good riding skills compensate for this? I'm not concerned once the bike is moving. The GS is the bike that I want but I am uncertain if it is right for me. Thanks for your input.

[BradfordBenn]

Well when your riding, your feet are up, so most of the time you don't want your feet to touch. However you need to be able to safely hold it up when you are stuck in traffic and stopped at stop signs. So as long as you feel confident on it, you are probably okay. Also you may want to look at lower seats, such as Sargent that makes a seat that takes about 1.5" off the height.

[BiffsR]

I have your same dimensions 5'10" and a 30" inseam. I wanted a 1150Gs, but the 1150r fit me better.

The factory low seat on the 1200GS allowed me to touch the ground fairly well, but it is one heck of a swing to get you leg over the rear seat and saddlebags when you mount the bike. You could always wait a little bit to see what a R1200R will look like.

[knary]

I'm new at this so if much has been written forgive me. After being away from riding for 35 years I just got an 05 650 GS. I thought it would be a compromise to help me get back into riding. It is a nice bike and I will ride it for a couple more months. At which time I want to get a bigger bike and start taking some longer road trips. However I am uncertain how important it is for both feet to be comfortably on the ground when stopped. I am 5' 10'' and have a 30" inseam. With the GS I feel like my legs are slightly too short when sitting on the bike. Is this a serious handicap? Will good riding skills compensate for this? I'm not concerned once the bike is moving. The GS is the bike that I want but I am uncertain if it is right for me. Thanks for your input.


The R12GS is easier to stand over than the old 1150GS. I have an 1150 and a inch of inseam on you. I keep the seat in the high position and still have no problem getting a foot down firmly. What position was the seat in on the GS you sat on? Did you sit on it in the 'normal' riding stance (left foot down, right foot up on peg), or did you try to put both feet down all the way?

[The Fisherman]

I tried to put both feet down all the way.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Wunderlich also make a extra low seat for the GS family...expensive though. As mentioned above the R1200 GS does seem lower, and the narrower seat and tank help to ease the leg reach also it would seem.

[PacWestGS]

I tried to put both feet down all the way.

See, there's your first mistake. Are you comfortable on the balls of your feet?

Only need one on the ground at a time, slide your a$$ off the seat slightly at stop lights.

I have a 32" inseam and with the unladen 1150GS seat set high I can only reach with balls of feet (both at the same time), but that's only if I need to push backwards...In the low position I can easily flat foot the bike.

Now when it's loaded up and ready for a trip you should be able to flat foot the 12GS without trouble, think of it that way.

EDIT: Now I won't tell you which bike to get, because I want a 12RT too.

[kbasa]

See, there's your first mistake. Are you comfortable on the balls of your feet?

Only need one on the ground at a time, slide your a$$ off the seat slightly at stop lights.

I have a 32" inseam and with the unladen 1150GS seat set high I can only reach with balls of feet (both at the same time), but that's only if I need to push backwards...In the low position I can easily flat foot the bike.

Now when it's loaded up and ready for a trip you should be able to flat foot the 12GS without trouble, think of it that way.

EDIT: Now I won't tell you which bike to get, because I want a 12RT too.


Heck, get them both. :evil

[jacco]

Did you sit on it in the 'normal' riding stance (left foot down, right foot up on peg)

That's interesting, I was taught to do this the other way around so that you can make sure that the tranny doesn't pop out of first when pulling away (e.g. from someone destined to hit you from behind). I only do it this way around when starting on a steep hill (uphill) so that I can keep the bike in place with the rear brake while messing with gas and clutch to drive off. Any reason why this is better?

Jacco

[knary]

That's interesting, I was taught to do this the other way around so that you can make sure that the tranny doesn't pop out of first when pulling away (e.g. from someone destined to hit you from behind). I only do it this way around when starting on a steep hill (uphill) so that I can keep the bike in place with the rear brake while messing with gas and clutch to drive off. Any reason why this is better?

Jacco

Why would it pop out of first? :dunno

You come to a stop using both brakes, right? If you do, that leaves you with a foot on the right brake pedal. Since you need a foot down to prop up the bike, that leaves your left foot to that work. Stopping with your left foot down allows you to use both brakes fully and start smoothly from a start on an incline.

But do what works fer ya. :D

As to the original question, yesterday I tried to put both feet down. I was wrong. I can't. I can be almost flat footed on both, or down firmly on one and on the ball of the other foot. This is with the seat set at the highest spot which gives me a better riding position. Now that I think about it, I haven't been able to completely flat foot (both feet) either of the beemers I've owned (the other was a K75s with an aftermarket seat and *firm* rear shock). Nearly 10 years of riding and it hasn't been an issue (I find other reasons to fall down). I would not like to be up on my tip-toes.

Go take the GS for a test ride.

[knary]

Heck, get them both. :evil

First I need to get an old CB and sprinkle it's heavy parts all around my garage on some rickety shelves.

[Eureka]

Getting both feet on the ground is the law in California.

"27801. A person shall not drive a two-wheel motorcycle that is
equipped with either of the following:
(a) A seat so positioned that the driver, when sitting astride the
seat, cannot reach the ground with his or her feet."

Notice it says "Feet" not "Foot" meaning both simultaneously.

The (b) section pertains to handle bar height.

Also, being able to comfortably reach the ground with both feet is really important on uneven or sloping surfaces. Start to lose your balance on a slope, where it is an extra long reach to the ground, in the direction you are starting to lean/fall, and you'll likely jam an ankle trying to avoid dropping the bike.

[PacWestGS]

That's interesting, I was taught to do this the other way around so that you can make sure that the tranny doesn't pop out of first when pulling away (e.g. from someone destined to hit you from behind). I only do it this way around when starting on a steep hill (uphill) so that I can keep the bike in place with the rear brake while messing with gas and clutch to drive off. Any reason why this is better?

Jacco

Jacco, I think bikes have gotten better and once in gear they tend to stay in gear. Far less bikes have clutch-cables to break or stretch so you can hold the clutch in as long as fingers can take it.

Now the better reasons to keep right foot on/near brake. If you need to suddenly 'LURCH' forward to give yourself more space from behind you can stop again without all the twist release brake with one hand maneuvers. If you need to start off and make a controlled low speed turn around something you can drag the rear brake to control the bike in this instance, even before your left foot gets back up on the peg, 'Say a big puddle of oil or something under the cage in front of you'. As you said, your bike is on a hill up/down and wants to roll away. But the biggest one for me is I can finally rest my right hand after everything in the universe OK in my mirrors and if the bike wants to roll I can leave my foot on the brake.

Off topic reason, Moto-crossers use the rear brake to control the front end while starting off the line/gate. Throttle is wide-open and just a little brake pressure will keep the front end down.

I now open this tread to the other reasons why... :blah :blah

[PacWestGS]

Also, being able to comfortably reach the ground with both feet is really important on uneven or sloping surfaces. Start to lose your balance on a slope, where it is an extra long reach to the ground, in the direction you are starting to lean/fall, and you'll likely jam an ankle trying to avoid dropping the bike.

I like to see how you do that, I always stop and lean against the up-side with one strong FOOT setting, and leave the other foot firmly on the peg. When I go again, just lean straight up and drive away. There is no need to reach the ground off camber with both feet and most off road bikes will not allow it to begin with. :dunno

Just curious? :)

Edit: My YZ has a seat height of 34-37-inches, I can touch both sides on my toes, but have a lot more control if I slide off one side and firmly plant a foot on terra firma.

[knary]

Getting both feet on the ground is the law in California.

"27801. A person shall not drive a two-wheel motorcycle that is
equipped with either of the following:
(a) A seat so positioned that the driver, when sitting astride the
seat, cannot reach the ground with his or her feet."

Notice it says "Feet" not "Foot" meaning both simultaneously.

The (b) section pertains to handle bar height.

Also, being able to comfortably reach the ground with both feet is really important on uneven or sloping surfaces. Start to lose your balance on a slope, where it is an extra long reach to the ground, in the direction you are starting to lean/fall, and you'll likely jam an ankle trying to avoid dropping the bike.

:dunno

I don't quite get the point of your post. No one is suggesting that anyone buy a bike that is too tall. Nor does the law define "reach" as "heal down". Besides, part of riding is planning your stops. If I'm coming to a stop on a slope where the ground is lower on the left, I put my right foot down. It's not complicated.

The only times it might be important for a rider to be able to flat foot on both sides simultaneously is if the rider is brand new to riding or if they have health concerns (balance, leg strength, etc). I suppose one could argue the same applies to all awkward less skilled riders regardless of experience. But that's not a condition we can diagnose on-line. :D

[jacco]

Thanks knary/sfdog, good reasons, all. I never really gave it much thought, my instructor just hammered on it week after week... He was riding an old white airhead beemer, some RxxRT I guess. How bad were those trannies? I'll give your reasoning some thought and see if I you can teach a "not-completely-old-yet" dog new tricks. Maybe beat it in with the right kind of reward... :drink (Not while riding though, as reconfirmed by thread in Campfire)

Cheers,
Jacco

[knary]

I like to see how you do that, I always stop and lean against the up-side with one strong FOOT setting, and leave the other foot firmly on the peg. When I go again, just lean straight up and drive away. There is no need to reach the ground off camber with both feet and most off road bikes will not allow it to begin with. :dunno

Just curious? :)

Edit: My YZ has a seat height of 34-37-inches, I can touch both sides on my toes, but have a lot more control if I slide off one side and firmly plant a foot on terra firma.

:nod

And if the road is off camber, trying to put both feet down is a recipe for falling down. Unless, of course, you've got some nifty telescoping legs.

[jacco]

The only times it might be important for a rider to be able to flat foot on both sides simultaneously is if the rider is brand new to riding or if they have health concerns (balance, leg strength, etc).

And black ice maybe?!?

[PacWestGS]

And black ice maybe?!?

Jacco, I don't ride on black ice, I have ridden on snow, white ice (crunchy type) and in a hail storm but, I park it under those conditions, too scary. The unknown that is… :dunno

But, to answer your question, YES, get one foot firmly planted and balance the bike between your foot and tires like a tripod (I'll take a picture if needed, but you'll be sitting with your thigh on the seat and your leg slightly bent at knee) that is the key part, because now you will have the strength and footing to feel secure... :thumb

[PacWestGS]

Back to original question R12GS/RT (partial)

When my SO is getting on I plant as much footing (both feet) on the ground as possible and get a good balance, set the front brake, then tell her OK. I'm on, she's on, she's off, I'm off...

If I have a bunch of stuff on my bike, or I'm tired (long ride) and I'm stopping for whatever [gas, food, done] or in the garage between SO's SUV and my BMW 330ci. I stop, put down the side-stand and then slide off the seat to the left. If at any point of this operation I'm loosing control of the bike or my footing, it will stop on the side-stand, not on top of me, or the side of my car. When remounting, I'll pull it up on the center-stand and step up on the left peg and over, then rock off the center-stand and go, don't even put my feet down, just go...

http://SFDOC.smugmug.com/photos/33523820-M.jpg

Try swinging a leg over that... :p

[knary]

And black ice maybe?!?

Stopped on black ice is fine. It's the going that's so impossible. And, for the latter, it makes it all the more important to have that right foot on that brake pedal so that you can better modulate the power to the rear wheel (just like in a U-turn).

[FredRydr]

...it makes it all the more important to have that right foot on that brake pedal so that you can better modulate the power to the rear wheel (just like in a U-turn)....unless you have ABS, in which case manual modulation hinders actuation of the anti-lock system.

Fred

[knary]

...unless you have ABS, in which case manual modulation hinders actuation of the anti-lock system.

Fred

I think you might be misinterpreting what I was saying. I'm saying that gentle use of the rear brake is helpful when making a U-turn or attempting to get moving on black ice. It helps you control the application of power.

[PacWestGS]

...unless you have ABS, in which case manual modulation hinders actuation of the anti-lock system.

Fred

Fred, in defense of knary I don't understand how ABS would make any difference in low speed stuff, I can lock up either tire with the brakes at less than say 5-10-mph on slick stuff [like wet grass], it (ABS Note #1) needs some motion to work. If I'm accelerating away from a stop and my back tire starts to spin its better and easier to use light rear brake pressure to control wheel speed than to use the throttle.

Now, if you have one of those BMWs with 'linked' braking actuated off the rear pedal, I guess (just guessing) that you have to understand that you are also applying brake pressure to the front wheel. (Maybe not the best thing to do on black ice)

Note #1: In regards to ABS it works on the assumption that you are exceeding the limits of traction while stopping and there is ‘rotation’. Therefore it requires a great deal on resistance to ‘modulate’ the brake caliper pistons at nano-second speeds. If there is no felt resistance the wheel in question will lock (stop) and the sensor (magnetic or optical) will not activate. Thankfully though once the system is “Activated” (using a lot of electricity as noted elsewhere) under duress stopping conditions it will stay active until reset by releasing the brake ‘switch’ (lever/pedal) so if you fly off the road under braking and go sailing across the wet grass medium the ABS will keep the wheels from locking up until the bike has come to a complete stop. (Whew it works) If however you release the applied pressure at any time and allow the brakes to reset, well the next stop may be on your head.

I hope that helps clear up Anti-Lock Braking Systems, they are fallible and you can completely screw up the thought process of the computer if you “Pump the brakes manually” If they activate and you need to STOP, do not release the applied pressure and steer as needed to avoid the obstacle. Bike or Car/Truck.

Russ

[BklynPete]

i am 5'6", with a 27" inseam, i've never flat footed any bmw i've owned. a 1200gs is completely out of the question. i have a 1200rt and i am tippy toed with the low seat on the lowest position. i have always used the left foot down three point landing at stops. when i had my 1100rt, i did have a rick mayer seat, cut down for more reach to the ground and a set of works shocks with the sag set a bit lower. i still wasn'tflat footed, but at least the soles of both feet hit the ground. not really important except when you want to back paddle the bike into a parking spot, now i have to peg leg it (my left leg pushing the bike backwards, with my body shifted off centered on the seat). i did that instead of using shorter shocks, so i could still have cornering clearance and also not have side and center stand issues. on my new bike, i am waiting for a new rick mayer seat, i cannot adjust the sag because i have the electronic suspension and there is no sag adjustment for this setup. i did not order the bike with this option, but bmw has seen fit to equipt all the present 1200rt's with this suspension. all those that are inseam challanged, be forewarned. i am hoping that i can put on a set of ohlins or works shocks when my present shocks go. i am told that replacement shocks for the electronic suspension will be really expensive to replace. i'm afraid to ask. i guess when i was riding through calif, i was breaking the law, since i rarely set both feet down at stops. :brow

[PacWestGS]

I'm new at this so if much has been written forgive me. After being away from riding for 35 years I just got an 05 650 GS. I thought it would be a compromise to help me get back into riding. It is a nice bike and I will ride it for a couple more months. At which time I want to get a bigger bike and start taking some longer road trips. However I am uncertain how important it is for both feet to be comfortably on the ground when stopped. I am 5' 10'' and have a 30" inseam. With the GS I feel like my legs are slightly too short when sitting on the bike. Is this a serious handicap? Will good riding skills compensate for this? I'm not concerned once the bike is moving. The GS is the bike that I want but I am uncertain if it is right for me. Thanks for your input.

Fisherman, I want to get back on question to help you out. A box stock 'showroom floor' GS has no weight on it so it sits high. Ask one of the dealers or mechanics if you can sit on their daily GS. Try one that's loaded a bit with 'panniers' on it. They do settle down a bit with 15-20lbs of metal hanging off the back and a lot more with 200(+/-)lb.

Good riding skills will help compensate for minor things, great riding skills will overcome all other events. ;)

Have fun and don't get rid of your 650 you can keep it to work on those riding skills, that have changed in the last 35-years, like the advent of the: cell phone, Starbucks, PDA, (reading) newspaper/legal pad/book, CD player, drive-through food, and application of make-up or electric razor. I know I missed something because people that are otherwise not doing anything but driving, still manage to try and kill me on a regular basis and I stay out of blind spots all the time. :banghead

I think I got off the message again, oh well... :D

[The Fisherman]

Thanks for all the good information. It's been a great help.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Just one more thought on this...how about just getting a short shock for the bike, it would probably only need an inch, that makes a bigger difference on the bike itself.

[FredRydr]

...gentle use of the rear brake is helpful when...attempting to get moving on black ice. It helps you control the application of power. I'm afraid that I cannot understand how attempting to manually modulate ABS brakes helps with any types of maneuvers when on ice on a motorcycle. Your description sounds familar, like a paraphrase of the description of a four-wheel traction system on four-wheeled motorcars.

But please, explain how this method works on a motorcycle on ice.

Fred

[PacWestGS]

I'm afraid that I cannot understand how attempting to manually modulate ABS brakes helps with any types of maneuvers when on ice on a motorcycle. Your description sounds familar, like a paraphrase of the description of a four-wheel traction system on four-wheeled motorcars.

But please, explain how this method works on a motorcycle on ice.

Fred


Fred you may be asking knary for his answer and if you ask again I'll keep out.

We are not trying 'modulate the ABS system' we are using a combination of throttle, clutch and rear brake to reduce wheel spin and create traction in a controlled way. If the ABS system wants to activate so be it, (I have never had it happen) it will still allow the brake rotor to slow wheel spin so you can get the bike moving off the slippery spot. Yes, it is like using the emergency brake in pick-up to get an open or limited-slip differential to recognize the wheel with traction and slow the spinning wheel down so that it makes better traction.

Like I said I don’t ride on packed or black ice, but if I’m on a snow covered road and trying to get the bike moving up hill or on level ground, this technique will work. I prefer to feed power with the clutch, but sometimes the clutch just wants to grab too fast and create a spinning back tire and the bike is not moving.

Like knary said about making a U-Turn (on dry ground) if you drag the rear brake while applying power it will make the bike stand up straight and help you complete the turn, sharper, better, smoother.

[knary]

Fred you may be asking knary for his answer and if you ask again I'll keep out.

We are not trying 'modulate the ABS system' we are using a combination of throttle, clutch and rear brake to reduce wheel spin and create traction in a controlled way. If the ABS system wants to activate so be it, (I have never had it happen) it will still allow the brake rotor to slow wheel spin so you can get the bike moving off the slippery spot. Yes, it is like using the emergency brake in pick-up to get an open or limited-slip differential to recognize the wheel with traction and slow the spinning wheel down so that it makes better traction.

Like I said I don’t ride on packed or black ice, but if I’m on a snow covered road and trying to get the bike moving up hill or on level ground, this technique will work. I prefer to feed power with the clutch, but sometimes the clutch just wants to grab too fast and create a spinning back tire and the bike is not moving.

Like knary said about making a U-Turn (on dry ground) if you drag the rear brake while applying power it will make the bike stand up straight and help you complete the turn, sharper, better, smoother.

:nod
Exactly.

[FredRydr]

Guys,

It's not U-turns or tractable surfaces. It's motorcycling on ice being made possible by modulating brakes that fascinates me.

I still think I'll keep it parked during the next ice storm.

Fred

[knary]

Guys,

It's not U-turns or tractable surfaces. It's motorcycling on ice being made possible by modulating brakes that fascinates me.

I still think I'll keep it parked during the next ice storm.

Fred

I think you are fixating on a particular definition of the word "modulate". There are three immediate ways to control the rear wheel - the throttle, the clutch and the rear brake. What blend of the three you use depends on the situation. When you need to carefully control the power being applied to the rear wheel (U-turn, when traction is near zero, etc), the rear brake is a GREAT tool. No one is saying that using the rear brake suddenly makes riding on ice a good thing or even very possible. Someone else brought up ice.

Would you like us to say it one more time? :p

[jacco]

Thanks for the interesting posts... Sorry to have wasted so much of y'all's riding time (:type) with my silly attempt to be funny with my black ice comment. But as I said, I did read your output with pleasure and interest (AFTER my ride...)

Best,
Jacco

[PacWestGS]

Ya know, you never know what you'll be riding on, might as well have an idea even if it gets you into further trouble... ;)

[FredRydr]

Would you like us to say it one more time? Please, no.

Fred

[wbunning]

I'm new at this so if much has been written forgive me. After being away from riding for 35 years I just got an 05 650 GS. I thought it would be a compromise to help me get back into riding. It is a nice bike and I will ride it for a couple more months. At which time I want to get a bigger bike and start taking some longer road trips. However I am uncertain how important it is for both feet to be comfortably on the ground when stopped. I am 5' 10'' and have a 30" inseam. With the GS I feel like my legs are slightly too short when sitting on the bike. Is this a serious handicap? Will good riding skills compensate for this? I'm not concerned once the bike is moving. The GS is the bike that I want but I am uncertain if it is right for me. Thanks for your input.
I have both an R12GS and an R12RT.
I had Rocky Mayer build a custom seat for the GS, which is actually a little taller than stock, but with the forward part narrowed out a little more. I'm 5'10" also, and can get balls of both feet down with this seat, but easily manage the bike on one foot at stop lights.
That being said, I use a BMW low seat on the GS when I plan on short-distance off road trips (compared to touring, then pulling off on the odd forest service road ). With the low seat, I can flat foot both boots, but it's not comfortable enough for long hauls for me.

The RT is a little lower than the GS with stock seat, but not by much. Again, there is a BMW low seat available, but is uncomfortable. I can get one foot solidly on the ground with no shifting in the seat, but not both. Toes/balls of both feet ok, but not flat-foot both. I don't consider this to be a problem on the RT though.

[JimVonBaden1]

i am 5'6", with a 27" inseam, i've never flat footed any bmw i've owned. a 1200gs is completely out of the question. ...

I'm 5'8" with a 29" inseem, and I have never had a problem riding any bike. So far only a couple full on dirt bikes have been too tall for me to get at least one foot comfortably down.

I rode a stock KLR with a 33" seat height, a 99 R11GS with a Corbin seat (taller than stock), and R11RS again with a Corbin, and now an R12GS stock, with a Corbin on the way.

IMHO it is more about personal balance and comfort than seat height. I pretty much never, outside of cruisers, can get both feet flat. On the 12GS I am close, but it doesn't matter. It is all about your riding skills and comfort level.

Buy the bike you want, and only if necessary, make it fit!

Jim :brow