Why

[JMister]

Why are we standing for this outrages fuel prices?

I saw on the news today that natural gas prices are going to jump up around 80% due to the damage of the offshore drilling platforms plus the damage to the coast of Texas where most of the refineries are located.

Okay my question is what natural gas are they pumping from the gulf? I thought that was “OIL” they were getting out of the gulf and any gas that comes from the well is what they operate their own power plants off of to keep the rig or platform running.

I know of 5 natural gas plants located within 100 miles of my home.

I live in Oklahoma and have learned that most all of the United States Natural Gas comes from Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma & Texas and yes some from Colorado too. So why is it now they are saying that Natural Gas is going to go up so much because the hurricanes?

We didn’t see anything from hurricane Rita here nor did the panhandle of Texas or any of the other states listed here.

I’ll get off my horse now, but how are we as Americans going to make it through all of these rising prices. My paycheck hasn’t grown any nor is it going to because of the cost of fuel but rather it’s going to shrink due to the cost of what I have to spend just to drive to work.

[username]

Why are we standing for this outrages fuel prices?

errrr, i don't know about you, but i do not control how much energy costs, only how much i use. i know if no way to materially control how much it costs. so the reason we are "standing for it" is because we do not have a choice.

i think the real question you should be asking yourself is, "what can i do, personally, to reduce my household energy costs."

i know it's unamerican to take personal responsibility for anything but the best of news, but give it a try. just for kicks, try saying something like, "my household energy costs are my responsibility." think of yourself as an "oilaholic" and the first step on your personal road to recovery is to admit that you have a problem. that will set you in motion to keep more of your own money in your pocket. :thumb

I saw on the news today that natural gas prices are going to jump up around 80% due to the damage of the offshore drilling platforms plus the damage to the coast of Texas where most of the refineries are located.

Okay my question is what natural gas are they pumping from the gulf? I thought that was “OIL” they were getting out of the gulf and any gas that comes from the well is what they operate their own power plants off of to keep the rig or platform running.

consider that you may be incorrect. i did a quick google search and found this link. (http://www.naturalgas.org/overview/resources.asp) and it mentions that ~22% of the US's proven natural gas reserves are offshore.

i also found that in june of '05, 1,976,714 million cubic feet of gas was produced from US sources. 1,414,449 of that came from natural gas wells, and 562,265 came from oil wells. that's ~28% from oil wells, a not insignificant amount. so please don't discount any NG pulled from oil wells as "burn off."

I know of 5 natural gas plants located within 100 miles of my home.

what is a natural gas plant? is there where LNG is piped in and then prepared for futher distribution? is this where NG is pulled from the earth's crust? are these storage facilities? there's a difference. but of course, it's moot as i explain below. the invisible hand has taken off it's nice white glove and slapped you in the face with it. :D

I live in Oklahoma and have learned that most all of the United States Natural Gas comes from Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma & Texas and yes some from Colorado too. So why is it now they are saying that Natural Gas is going to go up so much because the hurricanes?

here is a link to a sheet showing production by state. link (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_prod_sum_a_EPG0_VGM_mmcf_m.htm)
in april, the GOM produced 20% of the natural gas.

texas, louisiana, and GOM produced 54.5% of the natural gas. that's where katrina and rita came through/ashore. (how much NG comes from which parts of texas, i don't know.)

as of today, 8 Bcf/d of offshore production is still offline. i think there is about 60 Bcf in storage. google "natural gas shut-in" and you can read daily reports about the amount of production we aren't getting. you can see that huge percentages (as much as 90%) of our offshore natural gas production was stopped as the platforms were evacuated twice in a 30 day span. pretty heinous!

(nebraska is not even listed, btw, so stop listening to whoever was giving you your information before. i also recommend that you stop watching the news too, or at least supplement it by reading google news and trying to get a broader perspective.)

We didn’t see anything from hurricane Rita here nor did the panhandle of Texas or any of the other states listed here.

I’ll get off my horse now, but how are we as Americans going to make it through all of these rising prices. My paycheck hasn’t grown any nor is it going to because of the cost of fuel but rather it’s going to shrink due to the cost of what I have to spend just to drive to work.

look at it in broad terms - assume that 50% of the nations natural gas production, domestic oil production, and refining capacity saw exposure to the two big hurricanes that went through in the last 30 days. consider that we consume just about all that we produce, and that our refining capacity is nearing it's limit. take even some of that offline, and a brief shortage appears. the invisible hand goes to work, and prices increase. if i can sell natural gas that was produced in oklahoma for more money someplace else, then that's what i will do. therefore, if *you* want to buy my natural gas in oklahoma, you've got to match the price other people are willing to pay.

short term, you have no choice but to stand for it. as a red-blooded american, you will see a larger portion of your income spent upon energy than you are accustomed to. tough noogies. as i said in the beginning, you do not control the price, but you do control your own consumption.

long term, you should be raising your own level of consciousness, and the next generation of americans, to focus on a reduction of reliance upon cheap fossil fuels for economic prosperity.

[flash412]

Why are we standing for this outrages fuel prices?Because we don't have any viable alternatives.

[MarkF]

Because we don't have any viable alternatives.

And we still pay less than the majority of the world - except the middle east.

[CARVERBOATBOY]

Riddle me this ………. I think that there are laws that protect people from price gouging in the event of a disaster; you could not charge $20 for a bottle of water that yesterday cost $1.00. So why is it that when the hurricane was heading for Louisiana and Texas, before it even got close to land the cost of gas here in Ohio jumped by $1.00? I know the dealers were not charged any more for the fuel that was already in their tanks but I was asked to pay much more to put it in mine? :dunno

[JMister]

the invisible hand has taken off it's nice white glove and slapped you in the face with it. :D



I deserved that…… :hungover

[deanzat]

For some commodities, consumption reduction would lead to price reductions, but we've seen in recent months an excellent illustration of the relative inelasticity of energy. Even so, when the pain is too great, something will give, but it may be our habits, not the price of an ever decreasing supply of oil and gas.

BTW, for those who invested in energy stocks last year, the price increases are very good news indeed. One natural gas company with Louisiana fields had been languishing until the hurricanes. But most of their equipment was unharmed, and the gas is still in the ground, so the stock has been rising pretty well since the storms..

The moral of the story: spend less, invest more, and then you'll have money to spend. Extra bonus moral: most rich people got that way by not spending their money. DZ

[basketcase]

As Flash412 so politely commented, "we have no viable alternatives." That interprets for me into something like the vise I feel gripping my ... well, you catch my meaning.

However, courtesy of Katrina, the half dozen trees down on and around my home are now cut into the right size lengths for use in my blower equipped fireplace. The sawing and stacking on the last month of Saturdays has cut into my riding, but it is easily enough to get me though this winter.

Meanwhile, I am watching the news to see what alternative fuels do emerge from all this. If we are fortunate, the combined public and government pressure will speed the development of fuels that leave us less dependent on the extortioners in the middle east.

Rick (and don't ask me to whistle, thank you) in AL

[MarkF]

I know the dealers were not charged any more for the fuel that was already in their tanks but I was asked to pay much more to put it in mine? :dunno The dealers do not own the gas in their tanks. The oil company does until it's sold. That is why the oil company tells them when to raise and lower the prices and askes how much is already sold. Think of it as gas on consignment.

[Braddog]

...to drive down demand. Unless there's some other compelling reason, I'm riding my motorcycle for transportation. If I need to drive a car, I drive the 4-cylinder Ranger pickup instead of the V-8 F150. We try to run errands all at one time, instead of several little trips. When colder weather sets in, we'll keep our thermostat on 67 or 68 tops.

Those in power of the fuel are taking advantage of the Katrina and Rita. Sure, there are oil rigs down, but not to the point of raising prices of fuel 80%, especially natural gas.

[Cliffy777]

The dealers do not own the gas in their tanks. The oil company does until it's sold. That is why the oil company tells them when to raise and lower the prices and askes how much is already sold. Think of it as gas on consignment.
No kidding? I did not know that. Dang.

[CARVERBOATBOY]

The dealers do not own the gas in their tanks. The oil company does until it's sold. That is why the oil company tells them when to raise and lower the prices and askes how much is already sold. Think of it as gas on consignment.

True for the most however the independent stations (good friend has one) do own the gas and charge whatever the market will bear.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=92096&ran=142456

[PacWestGS]

The dealers do not own the gas in their tanks. The oil company does until it's sold. That is why the oil company tells them when to raise and lower the prices and askes how much is already sold. Think of it as gas on consignment.

Yeah, watching the news these past few months, the Owner/Leaser makes about one-cent ($0.01) per gallon sold. So when some dumba_s drives off with $20.00 of stolen gas, the store owner has to sell 2000-gallons to make back what he lost. Makes you wonder "WHY" they even do it?

Four-corner (street) competition, what a great thing here in America, over-seas there are only a few companies allowed to sell fuel, so they can have dinner together and raise the price as they see fit.

We've just been spoiled for too long, IMHO

They make there money on everything 'In-The-Store', deli, beer, supplies.

Just a thought next time you get mad at the station guy.

That dude with the white glove, is laughing all the way home in his H2, think he cares.

[PacWestGS]

True for the most however the independent stations (good friend has one) do own the gas and charge whatever the market will bear.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=92096&ran=142456

Yeah, kind of like the Independent Trucker, went away too after that invisible dude started slapping them around back in the '70s

[deanzat]

I cannot remember who said this, but it's worth remembering: "we are the invisible hand." Demand affects supply affects price.

I do remember who said this: "Our democracy affords us many freedoms, but in the last analysis, the one that matters most is the freedom to discipline ourselves." (might be mildly misquoted; the thought comes from Bernard Baruch. Not many people under 60 remember him, but he was the Warren Buffett of the early 20th century).

Again, energy costs are relatively inelastic, but they still must respond to demand. Besides, when you conserve, you automatically save money! And saving money is how you get rich, unless of course you happen to inherit someone else's saved money. DZ

[DarrylRi]

While I was away on a trip this summer, my wife bought a Toyota Prius. You may not like the looks of it, it's not cheap, and it's certainly not a performance or handling car, but it gets better gas mileage than my R1150RS does and seats 5. I can't wipe the smile off her face. ;-)

Actually, what I find more interesting than the car's fuel economy, is my fuel economy. When driving the car, there's a display that shows not only instantaneous gas mileage, but also a graph for the last 30 minutes. I find that I tend to drive the car so as to maximize the economy. This isn't the same thing at all as the unlamented 85 mph speedo from the 70s and 80s. There's a certain feedback loop that I find difficult to resist. (However, I do stick to the right lane and also pull over for those wretched folks stuck behind me.)

I recently made two long trips in it, both mostly highway mileage. On one, I was completely without time pressure and, over abou 450 miles, got 48.5 mpg. On the other, we were a little late getting started, and so I used the cruise control more. On that trip, 360 miles, I only got 43.8 mpg. I felt very disappointed, too.

One other thing, though. The fact that I can get the car to give better economy than she can does take the smile off her face. ;-) ;-)

[JMister]

O.K. there are several good points given. Some of us have been doing the cut back and conserve thing all along just because of principle (reduce cost, over dependency on foreign oil, environment, etc.) Now, Brazil seems to have learned something from the oil crises of the 70’s. They are almost entirely independent of needing fossil fuels because they produce ethanol from crops grown on their own soil. Yes, this was enacted and backed by the government of Brazil.

So where were our highly educated and top notch leaders of not only our country but the world? Why didn’t we learn the lesson and why aren’t we making major strides to correct the problem now?

I just saw Willie Nelson proclaiming all of his vehicles run on vegetable oil. Now I can’t see myself pulling up to McDonald’s to fill my bike but for $2.00 cheaper a gallon it would be a consideration.

Buy the way, I have been using a wood burning stove for alternate heat for over 10 years. It does save but as I said before, when you are already doing all of the conservation things where am I to go from here?
:violin

[DarrylRi]

...but as I said before, when you are already doing all of the conservation things where am I to go from here?
Keep in mind that a lot of electricity in this country is generated by gas fired plants. Therefore, I'd expect the market to increase the cost of electricity all over.

So, are you really doing all you can? We saved a quarter on our power bill by converting to compact flourescents where ever we could. We saved some more when we replaced our fridge and washer, with units that conserved a lot more energy and water. (We're on a well, so our water is in our power bill.)

I'm already on solar power. I haven't paid a dime for electricity to the power company in 4 years. Instead, I bought what I considered to be a fixed price contract for my electricity at $0.11 kwh for about 14 years. Whatever I get out of it after that point is free. The California PUC is right now considering price hikes for PG&E customers...

Now I'm considering solar hot water and a flash water heater. We had a solar heater in LA 25 years ago and it slashed our gas bill in half. I'm not sure I can do the same now that I'm living further north, but I don't see why it shouldn't still be significant. I'll go for it if it makes economic sense to do so.

The point is, by taking a longer viewpoint, we are saving a lot of energy. We're not depriving ourselves of anything.

I wish the country were taking a longer viewpoint on energy issues as well. If the Feds were inclined to gradually raise the CAFE standards -- just a bit! -- on all vehicles, we'd all save money on energy. If we were leading in environmentally favorable energy production, instead of lagging, our companies would be selling it to the world. Instead, my solar panels came from Kyocera, the inverters that tie them to the power grid from SME Regelsysteme GmbH, my hybrid car from Toyota, and so on. The Danes have the worlds largest wind energy farms. Research on power from waves is happening in Scotland.

And it's not like this can't be done in a capitalist fashion. The problem with fossil fuels is that they're subsidized and various costs associated with them are externalized. If carbon emissions were capped and traded, the market would discover what's worth spending fossil fuel on. Instead, antarctica is losing an ice shelf, the arctic ice is 20% smaller this summer than 25 years ago, and hurricanes are becoming more violent. Katrina is an externality that is going to cost us a couple hundred billion dollars, besides the increase in fuel prices.

[username]

So where were our highly educated and top notch leaders of not only our country but the world? Why didn’t we learn the lesson and why aren’t we making major strides to correct the problem now?


well see, now you've brought up *another* problem. we have a representative government, and i believe we have the one we deserve. i won't go into that, but i'm happy to tell you that both sides of the aisle are at fault. hopefully we'll get this steroids mess cleaned up, and then take a nice fall recess! btw, has anyone noticed that social security is NO LONGER DISCUSSED? does that bother you that such a HUGE emergency gets no attention any longer? here is a meta-worry for you - does it bother you that you didnt notice that, and that it didn't bother you till i mentioned it? did you forget all about it? was it really an emergency? do you remember when social security is supposed to become insolvent? can you name the other government program that is ALREADY insolvent, but was not deemed in need of "saving?"

back to energy - a few folks have mentioned price/demand. historically the demand for energy has been reliably reduced by recession. fuel prices go up, too much of GDP gets spent on dead dinosaurs, household spending on energy skyrockets, inflation (maybe) kicks in, companies reduce headcount and capital investment, and poof, we have a recession, and all sorts of stuff comes tumbling down.

in an economy that is 2/3rds consumer spending based, every dollar you spend on energy is a dollar that you cant use to buy some cheap plastic **** from walmart. or a dollar you cant use to pay the interest on your credit card debt, or autmobile loan. unlike most things, household spending on gasoline and natural gas is not done on long-term or low-interest rate credit. you won't see 0% financing at the pump. we've essentially borrowed our way out of the last recession with housing and autmobile debt. we aren't going to borrow our way out of the energy problems. we're gonna take in the shorts. the cost of energy is like gravity, the mob, or the IRS - you can dance around with it for a little while, but eventually, it wins.

here's a good example of how f-ed up some things get. go to your local airport. look up and watch passenger jets fly around. look at the 737s, notably the southwest airlines planes, and notice the funny little vertical fins at the tips of the wings. (winglets.) ever wonder what they do? they reduce the vortices shed from the tips of the wing, which happens to go directly to the bottom line of an airlines cost of doing business in the form of a ~5% savings in fuel used. (they reduce drag, obviously due to the smaller vortices, which reduces the amount of thrust you need to provide to keep the plane at speed. everyone knows that, right? we all learned it in 2nd grade aerodynamics.)

now, why doesn't EVERY 737 have them installed?

because it costs around $700k to retrofit a plane. all the airlines that have messed up operations can't spare the cash to upgrade to the winglets. (ah humans, existing for the sole purpose to stretch the definition of irony...) who can afford the money? why southwest airlines, the cash rich, fuel-hedged airline. the one airline that right now doesnt even need the savings.

you want to feel less pain from energy costs? run your household like southwest airlines would. keep it simple, keep cash on hand, and find ways to lock in low-cost energy whenever possible. make smart investments. don't over-reach. use common sense. prepare to pounce when opportunities arise. amazingly, this same model used at the household level, or the airline level, can scale to the national level.

so what to do? it's time for a rebirth of science and engineering in america. not web pages, electronic gadgets, and cheap plastic **** from china - real science and real engineering. it's time for the rise of the thinking man, the rational man, the literate man, and the man that can think past the next paycheck, the next natural disaster, and the next election. war on terror? we need to go to war against who we've become as a nation. it's time for an apollo-program-like effort to reduce the amount of energy we use, no matter where it comes from. it's time to start increasing, not decreasing the research funding for wind, solar, and other forms of renewable energy. it's time to aggressivley invest in higher efficiency appliances, automobiles, planes - you name it. of course i'm sure we don't have the money to invest in this research and development, because of the war....the hurricanes....the tax cuts....or whatever else that we pretend was a financial surprise, but could have easily been modeled and anticipated. (as a nation, we are like a diner that gorges himself in a fine restaurant, then freaks out when the waiter brings the check, as if we had no idea that dinner cost money. then we blame the waiter, and run out of the restaurant. then we're shocked to find that in just a few short hours, we're hungry again!)

so strive to reduce the amount of energy you use, in all ways. strive to educate yourself as much as you can on basic mathematics, statistics, physics, and finance. collect lots of data. think about it. form your own opinion. voice it. back it up with facts. realize that it isn't 100% right. realize that it may never be right, but that by engaging honestly and vigorously in an effort to find truth, you will improve yourself and the world around you. your capacity for love will increase. your tolerance of those different from you will increase. your capacity to demonstrate the values of your nation and your religion will increase. your respect for others will increase. your ability to help those less fortunate than you will increase.

the world your children step into will be better. but we've all got to work hard to improve ourselves, and none of us are done till we're dead.

i may be totally wrong.

p.s. darrylri rocks.

[JMister]

Riddle me this ………. I think that there are laws that protect people from price gouging in the event of a disaster; you could not charge $20 for a bottle of water that yesterday cost $1.00. So why is it that when the hurricane was heading for Louisiana and Texas, before it even got close to land the cost of gas here in Ohio jumped by $1.00? :dunno



This happened here in Oklahoma also. Is this called ANTICIPATED price and demand or is this price gouging?

[SHawn_P]

Riddle me this ………. I think that there are laws that protect people from price gouging in the event of a disaster; you could not charge $20 for a bottle of water that yesterday cost $1.00. So why is it that when the hurricane was heading for Louisiana and Texas, before it even got close to land the cost of gas here in Ohio jumped by $1.00? I know the dealers were not charged any more for the fuel that was already in their tanks but I was asked to pay much more to put it in mine? :dunno

Jeff, I believe the it is because the revenues collected today are used to buy the feedstock for the refinery at a date in the future. As the hurricane(s) moved into the Gulf, the commodity market anticipated, rightly or wrongly, that there would be an interruption to the supply and also to refining capacity. Obviously, either would shift the supply curve and push price up.

Same thing happens on a smaller scale when there is a major refinery problem (ie explosion), pipeline break, or normal refinery turnarounds (maintenance).

I think the problem we will face for the next few months is that supply will return to near normal (pre hurricane), but refining capacity in the Gulf will take a lot longer to come back on line.

I hope for all our sakes that we have a mild winter...

[CARVERBOATBOY]

Jeff, I believe the it is because the revenues collected today are used to buy the feedstock for the refinery at a date in the future. As the hurricane(s) moved into the Gulf, the commodity market anticipated, rightly or wrongly, that there would be an interruption to the supply and also to refining capacity. Obviously, either would shift the supply curve and push price up.

Same thing happens on a smaller scale when there is a major refinery problem (ie explosion), pipeline break, or normal refinery turnarounds (maintenance).

I think the problem we will face for the next few months is that supply will return to near normal (pre hurricane), but refining capacity in the Gulf will take a lot longer to come back on line.

I hope for all our sakes that we have a mild winter...

Ok I understand this to a point but ........... If I'm a house painter and I'm working on a job and a paint plant in some state blows up, I can't go back to my customer and tell them due to the explosion in XX state I am going have to charge them more for the paint in my truck?

Or am I missing something?

[PacWestGS]

well see, now you've brought up *another* problem.

i may be totally wrong.

Not totally, but the point you make is the one that tugs at all of these issues.

"Individual Responsibility"

If our elected officials (congressional, executive, judiciary and organizational [major corporation] CEOs) actually did their job, they wouldn't have a job. They would fix themselves right out of the perfect little life they have created.

For the rest of (wait, the majority of us) life is vicious cycle of existence and the betterment of that existence throughout our life; and then we die. With the hope that the generation we create will somehow be better than the last. That may be technically possible, but not environmentally. Humans are users’ when it’s used up it isn’t there anymore, we move on to the next usable resource…

Then there are the people who have figured out that they don't have to do anything, they don't have to be responsible for anything, including themselves, because there will always be someone who will take care of them at the expense of everyone in the first two categories.

That's it; the HAVES, the HAVE NOTS and everyone in between. Somehow we all look the other way, find fault with everything and everybody and blame all of life's problems on something outside of our control.

Yet, 'WE' control everything that in our immediate means, we can save more, make more, spend more, use more, or do just the opposite and still find happiness at the end of the day.

It is up to 'US', we need to change our priorities and focus on the things that are really important for our world to survive and our civilizations to prosper, together, as one world where everyone can live under a shelter, eat nutritious food, drink clean water and have access to life saving medicine. I’m not asking anyone to give up anything, just think beyond yourself and give something back. [Without the need for a catastrophe to make it happen] The world is already in a state of calamity, somewhere, all the time.

Why can't we all just get along?

The two biggest four-letter words in the English language that can be translated in all other languages in the world are “LOVE and HATE” the emotions that these two words can convey will change everything we can think of for better or worse! They are the extremes no middle ground...

Put that in an American way; we are a 50/50 nation, you are either an optimist or pessimist, the glass is half full or half empty, everything is either black or white.

Your side either won the last election and you are happy that nothing will get done, or you’re on the side that lost and will be happy that nothing will get done. Isn’t that a SAD statement?

I truly believe everyone here (this forum) knows that everything is ‘Shades of Grey’ there are no absolutes in life; we don’t even get to choose the exact time and place that we will die; it just happens and it’s not in our control. (No Kevorkian cracks here, some of his patients didn’t die as planned)

OK, my rants over but the answer to WHY is incomprehensible and requires a lot of different angles.

[James.A]

Let's not lose sight of the possibility that the EXTREME high dollar cats are betting on high demand and low supply in the futures markets and influencing current pricing. Investing in futures contracts is the ultimate high dollar fast lane. A mild winter could put them to ruin.

[SHawn_P]

Ok I understand this to a point but ........... If I'm a house painter and I'm working on a job and a paint plant in some state blows up, I can't go back to my customer and tell them due to the explosion in XX state I am going have to charge them more for the paint in my truck?

Or am I missing something?


No, but your next customer you charge more even though you may already have the paint on your truck, because next time you go to paint supplier, you are going to have to pay more for paint than what you did for your current job.

It is like you are covering the costs you will incur vs. what you have incurred... I wish i could explain this better...

Disclaimer - This is just my simplistic understanding/observatioin of the oil/gas world. It might help if I go spend a couple nights at the Holiday Inn... :-)

[SHawn_P]

Let's not lose sight of the possibility that the EXTREME high dollar cats are betting on high demand and low supply in the futures markets and influencing current pricing. Investing in futures contracts is the ultimate high dollar fast lane. A mild winter could put them to ruin.

Good point James.

IMHO, the future markets have more bearing on the wild swings we have all seen the last month than anything else.

Also, we are seeing the last couple years significant increases in demand for oil and refined products (ie gasoline) from the Asia Pacific/China/India area. Throw in the occasional sabre rattling from our pal in Venezuela and we find ourselves in a lot more volatile market than it was a few years ago ...

Collectively we need to do something other than open the spigot on the SPR every now and then...

[PacWestGS]

Sorry, got off track, tried to save the world one post a time.

:bottle :bottle :hungover

[PacWestGS]

Good point James.

IMHO, the future markets have more bearing on the wild swings we have all seen the last month than anything else.

Also, we are seeing the last couple years significant increases in demand for oil and refined products (ie gasoline) from the Asia Pacific/China/India area. Throw in the occasional sabre rattling from our pal in Venezuela and we find ourselves in a lot more volatile market than it was a few years ago ...

Collectively we need to do something other than open the spigot on the SPR every now and then...

Shawn, that's called 'Free World Trade Markets' that, was some of my point/rant. When the world starts to trade in a free market and we get rid of the tariff system that benefits’ the few richest nations while penalizing the poorest we might be able to hedge futures on something tangible and available somewhere else. Goes back to the Four-Corner competition market-pricing.

Right now, OPEC controls the price of oil, it doesn’t matter that the Gulf Coast got slammed, we still have to trade on a global basis and because we are in a hurt, supplying our own oil/gas they are going to charge us more.

When we get a ‘Foreign Policy Advisor’ who understands this and we agree on a ‘Foreign Policy’ that supports more of a give and take atmosphere we might reduce the worlds expenses (ours too)

[BradfordBenn]

My office/employeer is doing two things about this issue:

1) They started a Car Pool program.
Here is the ultimate irony three people who work together live in the same neighborhood, it was four before I moved, and none of us/them ever car pooled despite the fact that we could almost see each other's houses. One person showed up for the day shift meeting, two people for the night shift meeting. And to be fair the people this was set up for are the ones that are spending a fair amount of their wage on transportation and they still wanted their independence.

2) They formed a bulk purchase program with the closest gas station (Speedway) and purchased gas cards in bulk. I do mean BULK. So they got a discount which they are passing on to the employees when we purchase the cards. Actually they are even rounding in the employee's favor by a big chunk. How does a 4% discount become a 10% when sold to the employee. Yes there is a limit so don't ask me to buy you any. The idea is to try to help those that need it.

They are also matching any contribution to the Red Cross... :clap

[PacWestGS]

My office/employeer is doing two things about this issue:

1) They started a Car Pool program.
Here is the ultimate irony three people who work together live in the same neighborhood, it was four before I moved, and none of us/them ever car pooled despite the fact that we could almost see each other's houses. One person showed up for the day shift meeting, two people for the night shift meeting.

Brad, couldn't they get those three people on the same shift?

I think this where the country needs to, or is going to go. New industry will build houses, schools and create business to support the infrastructure in a community.

I would like to see my tax-dollars being spent in a 'Smart' way to rebuild N.O. this way. No major highways leading to nowhere, but a major highspeed transit system that moves people from the airport and other major cities in and out. And a mass transit system in town that works.

How often do we get a clean slate? Katrina/Rita have provided a place to start.

[knary]

Before I step out for a night of silliness, one ugly point comes to mind.

My wife and I have a fantastic life, but not a whole lot of cash. This is just a fact, not a complaint. Despite this, I could always get on the bike and disappear for a day or three of exploration, both real and imagined, without much worry. But now that little trip that used to cost $30 is fast approached $100. The former could be absorbed into our every day life. The latter starts to become real money the loss of which can add up to have real ramifications. Obviously I'll continue to ride, but I've noticed that the mileage is dropping as it becomes a less and less carefree experience.

:cry

[BradfordBenn]

Before I step out for a night of silliness, one ugly point comes to mind.

My wife and I have a fantastic life, but not a whole lot of cash. This is just a fact, not a complaint. Despite this, I could always get on the bike and disappear for a day or three of exploration, both real and imagined, without much worry. But now that little trip that used to cost $30 is fast approached $100. The former could be absorbed into our every day life. The latter starts to become real money the loss of which can add up to have real ramifications. Obviously I'll continue to ride, but I've noticed that the mileage is dropping as it becomes a less and less carefree experience.

:cry

Yup.

Oh yeah the reason they don't move to the same shift is that for their situations these shifts work better. Some have kids... spouse works other shift... etc.

[The_Veg]

My brother's cheap, low-tech, five-year-old Saturn gets about the same highway MPG as Darryl's Prius. :nyah

[MarkF]

My brother's cheap, low-tech, five-year-old Saturn gets about the same highway MPG as Darryl's Prius. :nyah

How about those old Hondas and Subarus that had golf cart tires. All 50 mpg!

[DarrylRi]

My brother's cheap, low-tech, five-year-old Saturn gets about the same highway MPG as Darryl's Prius. :nyahHey, that's excellent!

But is he driving that Saturn in California, with its crummy gas that robs 10-15% of gas mileage? Whenever I take the R1150RS out of the west coast, that's how much my mileage jumps. I've gotten over 52 mpg with the bike several times, but only in places like AZ, CO, NM, or ID. At home, I'm lucky to break 40 mpg.

The other thing is that the Prius gets about the same mileage driving in town. Ours would do better, except that every trip home ends in a 20% grade road, but we still get low 40s running errands.

How about those old Hondas and Subarus that had golf cart tires. All 50 mpg!Are you sure about that? My second car was a Honda 600, with 12" tires. It certainly got great gas mileage for the era (I had mine in '78 and '79, but it was a '71 year model "sedan"), however I recall that it got about 35 mpg. It would also only make about 55 mph over the Sepulveda Pass on I-405 in LA (about a 9% grade), and that only with a running start.

[PacWestGS]

Why have they got be old cars, the rental car I had in Europe last December got well over 40-mpg and that was equal between Autobahn and two-lane driving. It was fun to drive, seated five, and was good looking. It had a 4-banger turbo diesel with a 6-speed tranny. It was an Opal so therefore it was a GM...

http://SFDOC.smugmug.com/photos/38202793-M.jpg

If you can't read the sign it says "Bastogne" I and co-workers were there during the 60th Anniversary.
http://SFDOC.smugmug.com/photos/38202794-M.jpg

[The_Veg]

My brother doesn't track his city mileage that I know of but he lives in Birmingham Alabama, on the northern slope of Red Mountain. He's got hills at least as good as San Francisco to deal with, since he works on the other side of the Mountain. Most of his miles are highway anyway, between trips to Atlanta about every other weekend and frequent runs down to Tuscaloosa (Hi RickM!) to see our mother. Fuel isn't uniformly bad in Alabama but not uniformly good either. Crap is out there- I have no idea of his fueling habits, but with him not being the mechanically inclined sort I wouldn't think he's too careful about it, in fact he probably goes cheap most of the time.
But with the price difference between the two cars, sustained stretches of these prices could make the Prius come in even or slightly better. Of course nobody knew it was coming, so in the parallel universe in which the hurricanes didn't happen, the Saturn wins for now. For the record, he knows that the Saturn just like all things will eventually have to be replaced and he's been thinking that when the day comes he'll be interested in a Prius. For now though the Saturn is solid and I'm looking forward to riding up to Wiscowsin in it next weekend. He wanted us to take my car, but I reminded him that The Sexy Lil' GTI only gets about 2/3 the Saturn's mileage.

[BubbaZanetti]

Before I step out for a night of silliness, one ugly point comes to mind.

My wife and I have a fantastic life, but not a whole lot of cash. This is just a fact, not a complaint. Despite this, I could always get on the bike and disappear for a day or three of exploration, both real and imagined, without much worry. But now that little trip that used to cost $30 is fast approached $100. The former could be absorbed into our every day life. The latter starts to become real money the loss of which can add up to have real ramifications. Obviously I'll continue to ride, but I've noticed that the mileage is dropping as it becomes a less and less carefree experience.

:cry


why i'm at home watching the red sox and not at the yankee beemer event this weekend, my milage has trailed off significantly since lima..........

[JMister]

Before I step out for a night of silliness, one ugly point comes to mind.

My wife and I have a fantastic life, but not a whole lot of cash. This is just a fact, not a complaint. Despite this, I could always get on the bike and disappear for a day or three of exploration, both real and imagined, without much worry. But now that little trip that used to cost $30 is fast approached $100. The former could be absorbed into our every day life. The latter starts to become real money the loss of which can add up to have real ramifications. Obviously I'll continue to ride, but I've noticed that the mileage is dropping as it becomes a less and less carefree experience.

:cry



This is my point exactly. My wife and I are in the same boat and are just working stiffs with a good life but not a lot of extra cash to invest in bringing our home into the 25th century in energy efficiency and recoup the money in our life time, nor to invest in energy stocks to increase income to counteract the increase in expenses. I believe we are the majority. We have good lives but we’re not extravagant in the least.

Back to ethanol, they have acquired the permits to build an ethanol plant in the area I live in. Now, I’m not an advocate of this fuel due to going to the Husker rally every year (that’s what you get up there) and the bike didn’t like it. It is though, an alternative to help us become independent from fossil fuels and OPEC.



By the way, Brandford, does your company have any openings?

Oh yea, and what about the vehicles that run on peanut oil?

[RTRandy]

We have to believe the current administration about the how these hurricanes are effecting the cost of fuel. At least they were on top of Hurricane Rita when it devistated Houston last week.With all the news lately about Hurricane Katrina, we shouldn't forget that Houston has had it's share of devastating weather also.


The attached photo illustrates the damage caused to a home when Hurricane Rita passed through the Houston area last week.

It really makes you cherish what you have, and reminds us not to take life for granted!!!


Warning: The attached picture is disturbing and may not be suitable for younger viewers.

[PacWestGS]

:laugh :laugh I see that your right flower pot got pushed down a wee bit too, you should have the insurance adjuster take care of that very soon. :bliss

[dlearl476]

>Or am I missing something?

Yes. The guy in the White House isn't a house painter. Nor is there a multi-million dollar "house painter" lobby in Washington stuffing the campaign funds of anyone who will listen.

[GeoffMiller]

RT, you got lucky. Why don't you put on some of the pictures of the sites that actually got hit?