Mr. President, please don't waste my tax dollars...

[basketcase]

on a fool's folly by rebuilding a city below sea level.

It is not unreasonable, IMO, to expect people who are twice flooded out to relocate, or at least move back in at their own expense. instead of mine.

Repaired 9th Ward Levee Fails Again (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9438536/)

[BobFV1]

NOLA is a national treasure - in terms of culture, history, and a host of other unique qualities. It should be rebuilt properly with a combination of private and public funds - and it is possibl to build a city in a flood plain - look at Amsterdam - you just have to be serious and committed to reasonable and appropriate flood control measures.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

easy to say when you are a time zone away in a desert Bob....lol...just kidding

[Hodag]

I say save the money and invade someone else, then rebuild them.

[knary]

on a fool's folly by rebuilding a city below sea level.

It is not unreasonable, IMO, to expect people who are twice flooded out to relocate, or at least move back in at their own expense. instead of mine.

Repaired 9th Ward Levee Fails Again (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9438536/)

Neither the question nor the answer is as clear as you'd like. When a disaster of this scale strikes, it is in the national interest for the nation to be involved in helping those directly affected. But before you can even get to your poll, we need to ask a few questions. First question: how much would it cost to secure those areas from future flooding? Second question: how much will it cost to clean up those areas that have been flooded? Third question: how much is too much? This last one is the toughest of them all.

If the entire state of Alabama (or Oregon) vanished tomorrow it wouldn't come close to the cultural loss if New Orleans vanished.

[R100RS]

it is possibl to build a city in a flood plain - look at Amsterdam
Amsterdam is not susceptible to hurricanes.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Neither the question nor the answer is as clear as you'd like.

If the entire state of Alabama (or Oregon) vanished tomorrow it wouldn't come close to the cultural loss if New Orleans vanished.


Unless of course you happen to be from either of those places...hehehe..and yes I see that you both are....

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Amsterdam is not susceptible to hurricanes.


...but they are susceptible to great parties though....lol

[Mika]

Amsterdam - no huricanes but suseptable to strong storm surges from the North Sea.

Thomas Jefferson was the first president to push the importance of controlling New Orleans because he realized its importance to commerce of the Mississippi basin and the future country he saw. It may not be the largest port in the US, as has been pointed out in previous threads, but it remains an important port for the commerce of the basin. Yes parts of New Orleans need to be rebuilt so that we are able to use it for commerce. It has a national impact. This time lets learn from the past.

The dikes were built to control the river flooding. They impacted the delta and the ability of the community to withstand storms. They also were only built to withstand a storm surge from a force 3 huricane. Katrina was a force 4 when she hit. The current flooding is a result of previous damage and the inability to get the dikes permanently fixed.

We also need to learn from the law of unitended consequences. Assume the dikes are rebuilt to a higher standard and perhaps use technology developed by the Dutch. The question then is what is allowed to be built behind those dikes, not if construction is allowed. We spent and accepted a system that did not meet the potential threat to the area. At the same time we allowed construction and expansion in many areas that was not reasonable for the risk.

How and where we go in the future is the question. The answer is not as easy as the talking heads may argue.

[knary]

Amsterdam - no huricanes but suseptable to strong storm surges from the North Sea.

Thomas Jefferson was the first president to push the importance of controlling New Orleans because he realized its importance to commerce of the Mississippi basin and the future country he saw. It may not be the largest port in the US, as has been pointed out in previous threads, but it remains an important port for the commerce of the basin. Yes parts of New Orleans need to be rebuilt so that we are able to use it for commerce. It has a national impact. This time lets learn from the past.

The dikes were built to control the river flooding. They impacted the delta and the ability of the community to withstand storms. They also were only built to withstand a storm surge from a force 3 huricane. Katrina was a force 4 when she hit. The current flooding is a result of previous damage and the inability to get the dikes permanently fixed.

We also need to learn from the law of unitended consequences. Assume the dikes are rebuilt to a higher standard and perhaps use technology developed by the Dutch. The question then is what is allowed to be built behind those dikes, not if construction is allowed. We spent and accepted a system that did not meet the potential threat to the area. At the same time we allowed construction and expansion in many areas that was not reasonable for the risk.

How and where we go in the future is the question. The answer is not as easy as the talking heads may argue.

:thumb

[riderR1150GSAdv]

At 18 feet below sealevel Amsterdam is more vulnerable than most other cities. The big flood of 1953 has prompted the Dutch government to spend 2.5 Trillion $$ on the Deltaworks protecting the entire country from another flood like that. Even Rotterdam port is now protected by a storm surge (Measland ) barrier the likes of which doesn't exist anywhere else.
It is a matter of priorities. The US spend too much of its money bailing out 3rd world countries and not enough on its own people.
Americans are generous to a fault. It time to think about the USA for a change.

http://www.deltawerken.com/Deltaworks/23.html

[CustomSarge]

Allow only commercial enterprise below sealevel, no residential. As a condition of occupancy, mandatory evacuation is Without exception. No federal/state relief of constructions below sealevel. Privately insure or lose.

This retains the opportunities for a great downtown business zone without the liabilities of land(?) owning residents, who cannot be forced to evacuate (and rightly so).

I concur that the cultural heritage of the area is worth restoring. Let's just keep our loss exposure to a dull roar, thanks... <<<)))

[PacWestGS]

WOW, look at the level of education going on here on a motorcycle web site. Now, all we have to do is edumacate the politicians we vote for to make the 'right' decisions that will effect the lives of us and out future.

I am, in deed impressed. :thumb

Good 'TALK'. :blah

Russ

[CustomSarge]

SFDOC, are you subtle or vague, I can't tell. Could be me, I can't tell. Constructive consideration usually shows on my radar, I must be missing something. Would you opt-in to pay (again & again) for those who build in an area Known for periodic destruction?

I'm not picking on SFDOC, he's a well reasoned opinion. I just can't discern the angle of the argument. I'm only wanting to separate those who want to build in a known hazardous area, from taxation/federal disaster support. Freedom encompasses the fabulously successful AND the spectacular failure, with equal acceptance. Variance in any manner (including financial) lessens the true freedom of us all.

Admittedly, it's easy for me to say, SW Michigan is about as stable as land gets (ergo... DUH). Unfortunately, reason will not rule the day, politics will... <<<)))

[PacWestGS]

CustomSarge,

I'm not confused, I'm disillusioned. In the previous threads posted in lots of other places there have been great dissents over whether N.O. should be rebuilt in its current configuration. I am against wasting my tax dollars to rebuild in a flood zone, anywhere. Fix the flood zone and rebuild the city, OK but don't let man-made obstacles stand in the way of Mother Nature. A cement wall, or earthen-berm will never protect a city built beneath the existing water level, no matter how much money you spend. It has taken 287-years for us to lose. Let's not be beaten again. Raze the city, then raise the city and make it better than ever. (EDIT) If this not possible or financially feasible, then walk away and make Baton Rouge the LA shipping port for the Mississippi.

(EDIT II: I agree with you, the 'old city of New Orleans' survived this just fine, make it a historic area for Mardi Gras, Jazz music, ‘Rum-Concoctions’, and other convention stuff, but limit the housing and residential stuff to immediate workers and build a mass transit system to replace the highway system, for moving people. Casinos and hotels, not a problem, they can be evacuated and built to survive. "No federal Insurance Liability". Newber Orleans, American Garden of Eden, totally cool by me.)

If you build it they will come.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

...after all there are countless other historic places that have been lost and destroyed and yet we are still here and still alive and well. Sometimes things happen for a reason and this particular reason was not a real shck...just a tragedy that people cling to something of perceived value rather than practical value. Some of the best cities in the country and world are as good as they are now due to tragedy and destruction and the forced need to relocate or rebuild...i.e Chicago or Atlanta, London and then take other historic places that are worked around and they suck as far as getting around and practicality...i.e. Boston, what a nightmare to drive in that place, it is like being back in the UK and again no shock why.

[Mika]

Hey SFDOC we BMW riders aren't your average dumb bikers, we're exceptionally dumb bikers... wait that didn't come out right. :idea

[PacWestGS]

Go back and re-read my post I made lots of edits

Russ

[RevWillie]

We have the question: should parts of New Orleans be rebuilt if the area is below sealevel.

Actually, we need to really discuss building on the coastline. This being hurricane season, we folks in NC keep watching the Weather Channel to make sure that our summer cottage on the Outer Banks doesn't wash into the Atlantic. Hey folks, the Outer Banks are just large sandbars, miles out in the ocean! Why have we built so many houses/hotels/condos/amusement theme parks out on some barrier islands? We have hurricanes too---why do we allow building in these disaster-prone islands? The same question would go out to SC,GA,VA, and a whole lot of states up the seaboard. Then again, the Pacific has some dandy storms, they just call them something else. Why are these buildings in the line of danger?

Of course, common sense would help in development on coastlines, but I blame the insurance companies that would insure such fool-hardy buildings in locations that are just waiting for another named storm. Until we put zoning/responsibility laws in place that have some real power in them, then we are going to continue to replace buildings that shouldn't have been built there. :dunno

[The_Veg]

Great points Rev'rend, but since when have Americans ever used any common sense?

[barryg]

I don't know the answer, but the history of NO and La. government is one of total coruption. Billions of dollars will pour into the area, both public and private. The news cycle will move on to new calamities. Several years will pass and a new catestrophic hurricane will hit the area and we will find out that all that money will have been stolen and squandered. No solution will have taken place and the cycle starts all over.

[MarkF]

NOLA is a national treasure - in terms of culture, history, and a host of other unique qualities.
Yep - take those parts, the old parts, mostly above sea level, and make a tourist area. The folks who live below sea level or the business that are below sea level can be moved elsewhere. Then the Army Corps of Engenieers can make a big flood plain.

[PacWestGS]

No solution will have taken place and the cycle starts all over.

Yeah, I heard this from a guy at work from his Dad, in Texas.

Katrina provided New Orleans the 'Wash-Cycle"

Rita is providing the "Rinse-Cycle"

:nyah

I don't know if we should tumble-dry or turn up the heat?

[dlearl476]

>I am against wasting my tax dollars to rebuild in a flood zone, anywhere. Fix the flood zone and rebuild the city, OK but don't let man-made obstacles stand in the way of Mother Nature. A cement wall, or earthen-berm will never protect a city built beneath the existing water level, no matter how much money you spend.

Especially when a good portion of our tax dollars goes into the politician's, bureaucrat's, and construction company's (usually all the same family) pockets rather than the actual projects.
I second the motion. Bulldoze NOLA, make a proper landfill out of it, and MAYBE, build a modern port out of it. Send all the displaced persons to Bagdad to help THEM rebuild their city. A tax dollar 2-4-1 if you ask me.

[BradfordBenn]

Brad's First Rule of Buying a House

If you are looking up at the ocean... you probably don't want to live there.

However I do realize that there are other reasons and things at play to make this possible, such as Holland. Just so long as people plan for the worst. Just remember the score last time I cehcked "Nature 2, Man 0"

[MarkF]

However I do realize that there are other reasons and things at play to make this possible, such as Holland. Just so long as people plan for the worst.

More likely to get swamped by a hurricane on the gulf coast than in Europe.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

People use Holland as an example although the cost of that artificial land mass is exorbitant by anyones standards and would swallow the tax costs being discussed here. Also Holland do this because if your country is the size of a shoebox...or rather clog box then you reclaim the land you can. In LA there is so much space to move to it is not funny. Check the physical size difference between Holland and LA...pretty amazing difference.

If there is land available that you don't have to work to pump out then take it. How many of us live in our basements that have sump pumps and dont fear a power outage?

[Mika]

I was daydreaming about going back to Africa for a motorcycling adventure. I got to looking at a map and realized there is a lot of open space in Mali. I think we could fit all the Dutch, NOLA and MI sump pumpers into it and none of you would have to worry about flooding if the power went out. :wave

Some people look at motorcycles and think a bike is a bike. With the exception of the Skyway south of Chicago, most people think of a motor driven vehicle with less than four wheels as a motorcycle. There is a difference between a German built R1150___ and a Indian built 350 Enfield.

Not all land is equal when your building a home or a city. Some of the elements are subjective, some objective, cultural, economic and more.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Thanks M1Ka I will begin packing for Africa...lol. Hmmm...is Mn a land of dry basements too?..hehehee.

There are no real answers on the matter of NOLA although there is a difference with the incentive between Holland and NOLA to keep the pumps running...lol..no matter how much Chicago charge for a small country less than 4 wheels to go through a toll booth...hehehe.

[knary]

Everyone please take a step back and breath. The condition of NOLA as reported in the media is very misleading. When they reported, "80% of the city is under water!" they should have been saying, "80% of the city has some water in the streets." Two very different things. If you parse through the hyperbole and review the maps, the bulk of the city will be fine with modest repairs. All the calls to bulldoze and return it to the marshes are, IOW, off base. Changes in management need to be made, but please don't make a judgment call about the fate of that town based on the usual media tripe and your disgust at the actions of a small minority of the people of that great city.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

hehehe...not as though anyone takes the suggestions in a chat room that seriously anyway...well nobody in power at least, the beemer motorrad owner vote will not scare the government into suggestion quite the same way as NRA or other lobbying groups...unless your real ID is a member of office...lol

[knary]

hehehe...not as though anyone takes the suggestions in a chat room that seriously anyway...well nobody in power at least, the beemer motorrad owner vote will not scare the government into suggestion quite the same way as NRA or other lobbying groups...unless your real ID is a member of office...lol


I disagree. While obviously the gubbermint isn't feverishly reading this itsy bitsy corner of the internet to determine policy, the opinions of The People, of some of The People, are informed and misinformed in the discussions we have with one another.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Very true Knary although this will not be a referendum matter and even if it were to be it would be a state referendum and it is a good possibility that the people in those states have already a strong opinion anyway...let the fun continue...we still do less harm than either CNN or that poser from the weather channel..lol

[Mika]

Just checked in briefly.

MN - dry basements? Depends. I lived in a suburb called Eagan and always had dry basements in my homes with no need for a sump pump. Six months after I sold my last house to take over my folks place in Lilydale there was a freak storm that stay stationary over the area around the house, flooded the basement with several feet of water.

Lilydale is on the Mississippi. I am 80 feet above it on a sandstone bluff. I would need dynamite to blast for a sump let alone a basement. :wave

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

well I am sure that you could get the dynamite from e-bay if you really wanted a sump and not be left out....lmao

[CustomSarge]

To SFDOC, your Friday post clearly sets your position. I didn't think we were in such Complete Agreement!

'nough said (I especially like the Baton Rouge angle...) :) <<<)))