My Polluting BMW Motorcycle!!

[kenk]

As I ride my motorcycle to work each day thinking that by getting close to 45 MPG, I somehow doing my part to save our planet. However...I never realized that although our bikes use about 1/2 the gas, they pollute more that 90 times the emissions as a modern car. :banghead

How can this be....well, motorcycles have very little room for emission control and even with our modern BMWs with Catalytic Converters, our BMW still are big time polluters. As a matter of fact, a BMW oilhead with a catalytic converter is only average on emission. The multi-cylinder bikes are much better and I hate to say it, most Harleys are cleaner then our oilheads. Are K-bikes are much better.

From the EPA

Are motorcycles a less-polluting alternative to cars
and SUVs?
In fact, motorcycles produce more harmful emissions per mile than a car,
or even a large SUV. The current federal motorcycle standard for hydrocarbon
emissions is about 90 times the hydrocarbon standard for today’s
passenger cars. Although many of today’s motorcycles will actually meet
the current California standards, the California hydrocarbon standard is
still 18 to 24 times the current federal passenger car limit, depending on
the displacement of the motorcycle engine.
Beginning in 2004, all passenger cars, light trucks, and SUVs will be
required to meet even more stringent standards. When these standards
become effective, new SUVs will be meeting hydrocarbon standards
about 95 percent cleaner than today’s typical motorcycle.
The current certified emission levels of motorcycles, cars, and trucks are
available in the EPA Annual Certification Test Results Report on EPA’s
Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm. These emission tests are
performed by the vehicle manufacturers. For example, the following
comparisons can be made from the data on this Web site (these vehicles
do not represent either the best or the worst emissions within their vehicle
type):

To see the full article, go to:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf

[kenk]

As I ride my motorcycle to work each day thinking that by getting close to 45 MPG, I somehow doing my part to save our planet. However...I never realized that although our bikes use about 1/2 the gas, they pollute more that 90 times the emissions as a modern car.

How can this be....well, motorcycles have very little room for emission control and even with our modern BMWs with Catalytic Converters, our BMW still are big time polluters. As a matter of fact, a BMW oilhead with a catalytic converter is only average on emission. The multi-cylinder bikes are much better and I hate to say it, most Harleys are cleaner then our oilheads. Are K-bikes are much better.

From the EPA

Are motorcycles a less-polluting alternative to cars
and SUVs?
In fact, motorcycles produce more harmful emissions per mile than a car,
or even a large SUV. The current federal motorcycle standard for hydrocarbon
emissions is about 90 times the hydrocarbon standard for today’s
passenger cars. Although many of today’s motorcycles will actually meet
the current California standards, the California hydrocarbon standard is
still 18 to 24 times the current federal passenger car limit, depending on
the displacement of the motorcycle engine.
Beginning in 2004, all passenger cars, light trucks, and SUVs will be
required to meet even more stringent standards. When these standards
become effective, new SUVs will be meeting hydrocarbon standards
about 95 percent cleaner than today’s typical motorcycle.
The current certified emission levels of motorcycles, cars, and trucks are
available in the EPA Annual Certification Test Results Report on EPA’s
Web site at: www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm. These emission tests are
performed by the vehicle manufacturers. For example, the following
comparisons can be made from the data on this Web site (these vehicles
do not represent either the best or the worst emissions within their vehicle
type):

To see the full article, go to:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

I just like to ride the bike...if the EPA is cool with it so am I...and if they are not I am still cool with it. As long as planes are still flying and other bigger H1,2 & 3 the sequel beasts are out there I am cool.

The number of cars, trucks, busses, trains, planes and who knows what in the military, alien fly overs at area 51 versus the comapratively miniscule number of bikes make it more tolerable for me to think that it is not that bad really. The cat systems on the bikes currently really are not a good performance addition as it is, I hate to think what else they would do to us. We will all be riding Honda Super Cubs again at which time I will get out and drive an H1.

I am in an industry that is blamed and regulated for for emissions, and the truth is that we are a very small generator but an easy target and a small lobby in congress. Hopefully the AMA will fight anything as veraciously as the NRA does. We had to stop snowmobiling in Yellowstone during a three month period despite cars driving through all year long, where is the logic?

I am not criticizing you at all...just venting...I feel better and now it time for coffee...see ya

[dlearl476]

>However...I never realized that although our bikes use about 1/2 the gas, they pollute more that 90 times the emissions as a modern car.

Statistics, statistics, and damn lies.

Owning 4 cars and 4 (running, legal, licensed) bikes allows me a personal relationship with my smog test guy. The first time I heard this, I mentioned it to him and we agreed that I'd bring my bikes over for a little experiment. While both my '99 F650 and '99 Triumph Sprint (both with cat/smog systems. The STs is a little more involved, with an aux air system) blew significantly higher levels than my '78 and '92 cars, both were in compliance with current emissions levels, for cars.

[kenk]

>However...I never realized that although our bikes use about 1/2 the gas, they pollute more that 90 times the emissions as a modern car.

Statistics, statistics, and damn lies.

Owning 4 cars and 4 (running, legal, licensed) bikes allows me a personal relationship with my smog test guy. The first time I heard this, I mentioned it to him and we agreed that I'd bring my bikes over for a little experiment. While both my '99 F650 and '99 Triumph Sprint (both with cat/smog systems. The STs is a little more involved, with an aux air system) blew significantly higher levels than my '78 and '92 cars, both were in compliance with current emissions levels, for cars.

1978 and 1992 Cars????? Hardly a comparison. The new EC2 (Europe) and EPA standards and much more stringent for new vehicles compared to your state requirements for your old cars.

This is not what you call statistics, statistics and damn lies. A car emitting .010 HC compared to a motorcycle at 8 HC is a FACT. To simply ignore a fact and call it a lie is putting your head in the sand. To compare and OLD car to a new bike is hardly a fair comparison. Your old cars also emits a much higher HC emission compared to a new vehicle.

[CARVERBOATBOY]

1978 and 1992 Cars????? Hardly a comparison. The new EC2 (Europe) and EPA standards and much more stringent for new vehicles compared to your state requirements for your old cars.

This is not what you call statistics, statistics and damn lies. A car emitting .010 HC compared to a motorcycle at 8 HC is a FACT. To simply ignore a fact and call it a lie is putting your head in the sand. To compare and OLD car to a new bike is hardly a fair comparison. Your old cars also emits a much higher HC emission compared to a new vehicle.

If you are that concerned, civic minded or what ever.. then there is only one politically correct thing to do and that is sell the bike. And being the great person that I am I would be more than willing to take that polluting dinosaur off you hands as a civic gesture …………. Shall we say $100? :bikes :bikes :bikes

Jeff

[MarkF]

How about Jet planes? They cross the skies all day long. Dumping tons of fuel into a engine with no emmision controls whatsoever. Maybe we ought to limit Jet travel and transportation to things that are necessary and not just convenient before we do any more with cars, motorcycles or snowmobiles.

[gsmetal]

I wouldn't worry about your little motorcycle polluting the air.

Think of all the hundreds of millions of people in India and China who are using their cars and 2 stroke motorcycles. They have no anti-pollution laws there and are pumping more crap in the air than all the SUV's in the USA.

If tree huggers want something to fight - they should go to the UN and take the fight there.

[username]

I wouldn't worry about your little motorcycle polluting the air.

Think of all the hundreds of millions of people in India and China who are using their cars and 2 stroke motorcycles. They have no anti-pollution laws there and are pumping more crap in the air than all the SUV's in the USA.

If tree huggers want something to fight - they should go to the UN and take the fight there.'

your comments are utterly fascinating. so when i'm in america breathing smog, i should write a letter to my congressman and complain about the cars in india and china?

"dear sir, i was recently in los angeles, and i found the air quality to be offensive. it kicked off an asthma attack! i'd like you to drop everything and petition the UN to improve the emission controls on vehicles in india and china. i'm tired of those insensitive foreign jerks ruining the air in america. while you're at it, please inform the chemical companies in russia and china that they are also creating superfund sites all over the US. lastly, the fact that most kids in 3rd world countries are illiterate is having a very damaging effect on our own children's test scores. i want that fixed as well."

or maybe youre not suggesting that foreigners are the cause of bad air quality in america? (i realize that sometimes they are.. that when the folks in central america burn their fields/forests, the smoke does blow into austin, and that is a problem... but it's infrequent.)

anyway, i am willing to admit that the above may be wrong, and that there is another explanation. maybe youre suggesting that since someone else is causing a (in your opinion) bigger problem, that you are not obligated to improve yourself. that's an interesting (albeit abhorrent) mentality to have, but it would explain itself neatly. i often wonder where flawed/lazy thinking comes from, but in this case, it's easy to imagine...

[the setting: GS metal is in school, sitting at a desk. the class just got an exam back and the teacher is discussing the grades.]

teacher: GS metal, i need you to study more. you're getting a low grade in this critical thinking class.

GS metal: did i get the lowest grade?

teacher: no, john smith got the lowest grade.

GS metal: well then why should *i* study harder? you should be yelling at john smith!

teacher: i think you need to learn as much as possible and do the best you can. it will serve you later in life.

GS metal: no i don't, i need to be left alone, no matter how low my grades are, and you should focus only on the kid with the lowest grade.

teacher: sh!t, you're going to vote, and breed, and do all sorts of stuff aren't you?

GS metal: what's the matter with you, are you unpatriotic?

teacher: [shudders involuntarily.]

:cry

[username]

We had to stop snowmobiling in Yellowstone during a three month period despite cars driving through all year long, where is the logic?


it is embedded deep in the mind of the person who likes to cross country ski or snowshoe in the national park and not have to listen to or smell a machine. there are actually some people on earth that think that we should have places that are quiet and machine-free. (heresy on a motorcycle site, i know. :D )

question: are snowmobiles limited to paved roadways, where the millions of cars typically stay?

[username]

mods, can you merge these threads? we've got two of these going...

[gsmetal]

Simple minds would find my comments facinating.

[lorazepam]

it is embedded deep in the mind of the person who likes to cross country ski or snowshoe in the national park and not have to listen to or smell a machine. there are actually some people on earth that think that we should have places that are quiet and machine-free. (heresy on a motorcycle site, i know. :D )

question: are snowmobiles limited to paved roadways, where the millions of cars typically stay?

So the owners of the vehicles have to bow the wishes of those who want the quiet? What makes the folks who want quiet so special? All those folks with the snowmobiles have a lot of money tied up in them, and shold be able to use them in tha park if they desire. Quiet is free, and those folks can just get out at night and get all the free quiet they want.

[Stuff2C]

Simple minds would find my comments facinating.

I was simply amazed. :boldpurpl


There again, I don't recycle anything. Heck, I won't even have a garage sale. :brad

[Stuff2C]

mods, can you merge these threads? we've got two of these going...

Thats a good idea! How about "is this website boring" because the "tree huggers" are about to get wound up. :fight

Until I see every one of them riding a bicycle and sitting in the dark, I'm throwing all my beer cans and milk jugs in the trash. :bottle

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Hehehehe...just because of this thread I am even more serious about that cat eliminator for my bike...hehehehe...we will get a visit from Captain Planet and the planeteers now....so watch everyone in the room for signs of green and yellow spandex eh?....lol

[kbasa]

Breathing is over rated, I guess.

As my 95 year old grandmother says, "It's a poor bird that $hit$ in its own nest." Interpret as desired.

Merged, moved to Campfire.

kenk, use the New Posts button to search for posts so you don't have to start a thread in two places that are about the exact same thing.

Carry on.

[kbasa]

Hehehehe...just because of this thread I am even more serious about that cat eliminator for my bike

Why?

[PacWestGS]

Hey, if your bike uses half the gas as your car and 85% less gas than the H2 Hummer your riding past in the morning, while they're sitting bumper-to-bumper in traffic, spewing out all kinds of smog. :cry

Think about this. The oil refinery that produced the gas that's in everything we use, is spewing out 1000% more Hydrocarbons than your bike. :dunno

So you are saving the planet, one day at a time. :clap

[PacWestGS]

A single 4-cycle gas powered lawn mower produces more green-house gases than a well tuned 454cid chevy power house.

"Don't quote me on that I made it up", but it's true.

[GeoffMiller]

I just don't know. Seems to me that without getting into the typical lefty righty pissing match that perhaps we could be just a tad more frugal with our resourses without reverting to the stone age. No , I don't care to ride a bicycle yet do I need a Denali to move my fat butt into town for a carton of milk? I think that we could cut our consumption and polution considerably and relatively painlessly by modifying our fuel habits. No body and I mean nobody needs a Humvee. Why are we lighting empty roads in rural areas? How come the city is so bright at 2:00am when most are sleeping
Subject noise: I live in the great white north and snowmobiles can be very irritating. Yep, I used to own a couple myself and yep, they are fun. The problem is that there are very few places to go anymore to find solitude. The trails created in the snow screw up things for mother nature. Predators are more able to easily move on the packed snow causing imbalance between predator and prey. ****, I'm wandering here. Bottom line, how am I going to explain this mess to my grandkids........

[Cliffy777]

it is embedded deep in the mind of the person who likes to cross country ski or snowshoe in the national park and not have to listen to or smell a machine. there are actually some people on earth that think that we should have places that are quiet and machine-free. (heresy on a motorcycle site, i know. :D )

question: are snowmobiles limited to paved roadways, where the millions of cars typically stay?

to answer your question. Yes. When we visited Yellowstone 4 winters ago and rented snowmobiles for one day we were required to stay on the roads. I see both sides - it was great to be able to navigate around the park on a sled, but it was disconcerting when there were hundreds of snowmobiles in the parking lot for Old Faithful. The noise and fumes were tough to take.
I believe the answer lies in compromise. Four stroke snowmobiles throw out a lot less goop into the air. Keep the sleds to certain areas?
Remember, the snowmobiles are (were) limited to the roads whereas snow shoers and x-c skiers can go anywhere.
As an aside: Yellowstone in winter is an absolute wonder. 10 below zero (perfect Rounder riding weather) and then it gets all warm around the hot springs and geysers, etc. Like being on another planet.

[PacWestGS]

I use the smells bad test and my eyes are watering test, using that method of testing, I'd rather sit behind any motorcycle at an intersection than most cars/trucks on the road today. When they (smog-police) crack down on some junker spewing out uncontrolled oil escaping from under the hood and worn out piston rings burn motor oil into the air, I'll start to worry about my bikes running condition. And if you have a motorcycle that fits the above description, fix it.

Username, I can empathize with you a little about snow-machines and such, but when I go riding my mountain-bike in areas that are (off limits to motorized vehicles), I occasionally come across a tire track left by a lone dirt-bike tire, that's all there is and its small (no smell, no sound), what I have to dodge the whole way is Horse Poop, and that smells bad and stay around for ever.

Also, I think that here in America there are so few places left that Off Highway Vehicles can go, that they ought to be the only users and yes, they pay the green-tab stickers to keep these areas open, not the horse-men, or the snow-shoe/skiers. They can go to any public land they want to go and never see or hear a motorized vehicle, if you go to the same place then I don't see how you can complain.

[BubbaZanetti]

Until I see every one of them riding a bicycle and sitting in the dark, I'm throwing all my beer cans and milk jugs in the trash. :bottle


please, tell me that was sarcasm and i'm oblivious...............

[kbasa]

Hey, if your bike uses half the gas as your car and 85% less gas than the H2 Hummer your riding past in the morning, while they're sitting bumper-to-bumper in traffic, spewing out all kinds of smog. :cry

Think about this. The oil refinery that produced the gas that's in everything we use, is spewing out 1000% more Hydrocarbons than your bike. :dunno

So you are saving the planet, one day at a time. :clap

Actually, if someone was to run a new car in a garage these days, it wouldn't make enough CO to kill someone.

There are a couple of ZLEV Hondas that emit such low emissions that in LA the air coming out of the tailpipe is cleaner than the air going in the intake.

True.

The majority of automobile generated pollution we see these days comes from the cars that are 15 or 20 years old or current vehicles that need a tune up.

I'm a big fan of keeping the air clean to the best of my abilities. I've left all the emissions stuff on my bikes (except the GS, I took the canister off), including the catalytic converters. These bikes make plenty of power for me and I don't see a lot of reason to take the cat off. If was serious about getting rid of 20 pounds on the bike, I'd go back on my diet and make both me and the bike perform better.

My 2 cents. I like my planet and am doing some things to help keep it inhabitable.

[kbasa]

please, tell me that was sarcasm and i'm oblivious...............

Yeah, I was hoping it was.

We have curbside recycling in my county and about 70% of our waste stream gets recycled. Think of all the stuff that doesn't get buried in the ground because of that.
:bolt

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Why?


Sarcasm was why Kbasa...pure and simple. I was looking at taking the cat off the GS for weight and power reasons not for this although it made for sarcastic low value wit.

[Visian]

The majority of automobile generated pollution we see these days comes from the cars that are 15 or 20 years old or current vehicles that need a tune up.


Referring also to the comment about polluters in India and China, I believe that much of our foreign aid should come in the form of free tune ups for vehicles there. And trash recycling programs.

One trip to Mexico will convince you of that.

Kyoto? I'd rather spend our foreign aid money tuning up the world's cars.

And... convincing people here that we need to be as conservative as we possibly can with our precious resources and environment, even though we're not the dumbest kid in the class (great post, lee...)

Ian

[Stuff2C]

My wife calls me “the most environmentally unfriendly man on earth”. :banghead

Oil as weed control. She yells! :blah
Trash of any sort goes in the compactor. She digs it out. :help
Old paint in the garbage. She follows me out to bring it back. :mad

I guess opposites do attract. Lucky me!! :love

[kbasa]

Sarcasm was why Kbasa...pure and simple. I was looking at taking the cat off the GS for weight and power reasons not for this although it made for sarcastic low value wit.

Got it. Sarcasm is hard here. :buds

[kbasa]

My wife calls me “the most environmentally unfriendly man on earth”. :banghead

Oil as weed control. She yells! :blah
Trash of any sort goes in the compactor. She digs it out. :help
Old paint in the garbage. She follows me out to bring it back. :mad

I guess opposites do attract. Lucky me!! :love

Indeed. My dad used to have a little hole in the backyard he poured his waste oil in. He lived up a hill about 25 or 30 yards from a pond he fished in. He'd eat the stuff that came out of the pond. I gave him a hard time about his little toxic waste site, but he pretty well ignored me.

One spring, it rained long and hard and an oil slick appeared on the pond, directly downhill from his little oil hole.

He now recycles his oil. :clap :clap

That stuff has to go somewhere, I guess. I just want to make sure it gets put in the right spot. Paint? It gets sent to a toxic waste disposal site and they incinerate it. Plastics? They get recycled and made into stuff like fleece and sneakers and the like.

In any case, if I can keep something from getting buried in the ground and get it sent around to get used again, I'm all for it. :thumb

[The_Veg]

While our recycling programs are good, the fact that they are on the forefront of most Americans' environmental efforts shows, in my opinion, that we are still mostly ignorant and lazy about actually doing anything. Environmental scholars like to sum up the major important concepts of environmentally sound waste disposal as the THREE R's:

REDUCE
Reduce the amount of waste you generate in the first place. There are infinite ways to do this, such as buying products with less packaging when possible. Europeans can teach us much in this regard. When I was stationed in Germany, I noticed that nobody put a trash can larger than five gallons on the curb.

RE-USE
Instead of adding a container to the waste stream after a single use, wash it out and use it again if it's a reclosable type. Not practical with 100% of the containers that pass through your household, but still a step in the right direction. I remember thirty years ago my mom had a big box of jars and plastic tubs, and any leftover that would fit in a re-used container went in one.

Once those first two steps have been done as much as possible, THEN RECYCLE what remains.

And just for good measure, let's all remember to think globally, act locally. Every little bit helps.

[Visian]

Environmental scholars like to sum up the major important concepts of environmentally sound waste disposal as the THREE R's:


First, good info, Veg. I wasn't aware of this, but our family does these kinds of things... I guess out of common sense.

I'd like to add a fourth R.... Respect.

Respect our earth. When it comes down to it, garbage, waste, pollutants, effluents... have no place to go. It stays here, in one form or another.

So, the less we use and the less we waste, and the more we conserve, the longer we last.

Does anyone remember the Star Trek movie where they revisit the Earth and it is black when viewed from outer space? Man, I have nightmares about that!

Ian

[Visian]

Oh... and oBMWc....

Isn't it cool that BMW is a pioneer in planning for the recycling of the materials that are used to construct their vehicles?

"Sustainable Mobility"... that is one dimension of the BMW brand that I deeply admire. Check it out. (http://www.bmw.co.th/manufacturing/technologies/14.html)

Ian

[PacWestGS]

While our recycling programs are good, the fact that they are on the forefront of most Americans' environmental efforts shows, in my opinion, that we are still mostly ignorant and lazy about actually doing anything. Environmental scholars like to sum up the major important concepts of environmentally sound waste disposal as the THREE R's:

REDUCE
Reduce the amount of waste you generate in the first place. There are infinite ways to do this, such as buying products with less packaging when possible. Europeans can teach us much in this regard. When I was stationed in Germany, I noticed that nobody put a trash can larger than five gallons on the curb.



Veg you are absolutely correct, I remember when I was in Germany 82-84 / 85-88 they didn't have any trash to speak of. Everything was re-usable and/or recyclable (Cardboards-v.-Plastic). Milk came in a glass bottle and you set it out for a new one (like America in the before-60's)

Now everything from baby-diapers to toilet-bowl cleaner are "DISPOSABLE", disposable my arse, all that non-biodegradable stuff ends up in a landfill some where.

I do my part the best my wife and I can.

It's really an "Education" problem around the world. And I'm afraid to say, but Americans' have been 'Spoiled' for far too long...

I think every person should be required to travel to at least three levels of a foreign country between high school and what ever else they do in life. That way they can see where they’re from and where and how other people live. Asia (all of it) is a big city dump, when they are done with something like plasitc bag, just drop it the wind will clean up for you. The good thing is they don't have many 'Non-Biodegradable' items, but they do burn everything.

I know this is “off or on” the question at hand, but last December I was in Belgium and rented a four-cylinder diesel Mid-size (four-door) Opal. That car was clean burning, fuel efficient (40-45 MPG at Autobahn speeds, and handled very well, not as good as my 330ci but fun none the less, and it parked easy along narrow streets.

[lorazepam]

I think every person should be required to travel to at least three levels of a foreign country between high school and what ever else they do in life. That way they can see where they’re from and where and how other people live. Asia (all of it) is a big city dump, when they are done with something like plasitc bag, just drop it the wind will clean up for you. The good thing is they don't have many 'Non-Biodegradable' items, but they do burn everything.
.

I have been to several cities in China where there is little trash on the streets, but only once city there where air pollution or dust particles werent in the air. Hong Kong is amazingly clean for everything that goes on there. But Dalian was the cleanest city I worked in.

[BradfordBenn]

The whole electronics industry is going through the process of trying to make our products lead free so that consumers can more safely dispose of them.

I was proud when in our house recycling takes three containers and garbage is one bag.

[PacWestGS]

I have been to several cities in China where there is little trash on the streets, but only once city there where air pollution or dust particles werent in the air. Hong Kong is amazingly clean for everything that goes on there. But Dalian was the cleanest city I worked in.

Gale,

Hong Kong is 'Amazingly' British (not-anymore, but), and there are some great abnormalities in each country. (I haven't spent any time in China, but if you have nothing to litter, than litter is not a problem)

I was speaking as a whole; Japan is probably one of the cleanest countries in the world bar none. Singapore is probably the cleanest place on earth.

My point is that as modern materials get dispersed around the world, people will have to find ways to keep it from overwhelming their resources.

[lorazepam]

China has lots of folks to keep the place clean. I never saw a power mower while I was there. Saw lots of folks sitting around with shears, though.

I do agree with you though. I bet you can find the same conditions in cities right here in the US. I have ranted enough tonight, and will not expound on it.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

[QUOTE=SFDOC]Veg you are absolutely correct, I remember when I was in Germany 82-84 / 85-88 they didn't have any trash to speak of.

Didn't the Germans truck their stuff over to Poland for disposal back then still?....lol NATO was just a cover to prevent paying for international trash shipments like the Canadian ones coming to MI...hehehehe

[PacWestGS]

No Andy, they trucked it into 'FRANCE' :nyah

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

hehehehe...and it never left there eh?...hehehehe...good one

[Mika]

Is there any understanable way of looking at the total system impact of motorcycles or any form of transportation? We can zoom in on any part of a system and find huge negatives but what is the overall system impact? In healthcare deadly agents are used at times that within the context of the entire treatment cycle produce a life saving result.

If you had a vehicle that was manufactured from 100% recyceled materials, in a zero emission production plant, and used rechargeable batteries as the power source you would have the potential for an environmentally friendly vehicle. Generate the electricity with solar power and you are doing very well. Plug your batteries into a power grid supplied by a nuclear power plant and the environmental impact of your drive is measured in thousands of years.

What are the total system inpacts? How do we measure them? :dunno

[Stuff2C]

Does anyone remember the Star Trek movie where they revisit the Earth and it is black when viewed from outer space? Man, I have nightmares about that! Ian


How about the episode of Dennis the Menace when Mr Wilson gets paint in his BBQ grill...then gets hit in the head with a flaming marshmallow. :lol :lol

The sleepless nights are killin me. :laugh

[Montana]

M1ka is right, a lot of folks seem to be agonizing over minor details, but only by examining the big picture do you get the result of the impact you make.

Let's see: my motorcycle is comprised of, what, one tenth the amount of materials as a typical auto? That's a significant reduction of impact on the extractive resources, power input for materials conversion (ore to steel ingots to sheet stock to shaped goods), a lot less foam and fewer petrochemical-based products, etc. Although producing Aluminum is one of the most power-intensive processes (reduction) in existence, right next to alchemy and personal transmutation, I think.

I use it for 3/4 of my ground transportation, that's a significant trade off even if the two cylinders pollute - uh, wait, was that "pollute 90 times more per cylinder" or "pollute 90 times more per vehicle" and is that all vehicles or compared with a classification of vehicles? And is that specifically my cat-equipped bike or all bikes, as a median or an average?

If my new car is part electrical, how does the manufacturing and disposition of the battery and similar alternative power components affect the environmental impact computation as compared to a conventionally-fuelled but efficient auto? Hmm, let's see, if I trade out a Saturn (plastic body parts) for a Subaru (metal body parts), am I ahead or behind the curve? But they both get about 30 mpg. And of course, the Subaru model made in the US doesn't have the environmental impact of the vehicle that shipped from overseas.

Just how big is that Big Picture, anyway?

[username]

So the owners of the vehicles have to bow the wishes of those who want the quiet? What makes the folks who want quiet so special? All those folks with the snowmobiles have a lot of money tied up in them, and shold be able to use them in tha park if they desire. Quiet is free, and those folks can just get out at night and get all the free quiet they want.

hopefully you're being sarcastic. just in case youre not, i'll say a few things.

i think the goal should be to find ways to respect and provide for everyone. i dont think this is an "or" problem, i think it's an "and" problem. i think it's possible in the big parks to find ways to make certain sections available to motorsport enthusiasts, and certain sections available to folks who want things to be quiet. both are really fun activities, and we should have enough space (and respect for others) for everyone to enjoy it. anyone who has ever hiked and has had the splendor spoiled by a snowmobile or motorycle ripping by them knows what i'm talking about. anyone who has ever snowmobiled or trail ridden and had the splendor spoiled by almost hitting (or hitting) a snowshoer or x-country skier knows what i'm talking about. it's good to keep them apart.

i don't think that the cost of the snowmobile is relevant to this discussion. spending a lot of money on something does not create a "right" to use it. the misuse of the word "right" and the supposition that priviledged behaviors are "rights" is a source of a lot of problems in the US. there is a difference, but i appreciate that most people are uneducated and mentally lazy enough to fail to appreciate it.

attitudes that one activity is "more valid" than another, or that people have the "right" to do one thing or the other usually move us further away from a really good solution, not towards one. of course, if people were smart enough to comprehend this, most of these arguments would never occur in the first place.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Designated trails are acceptable for all but the uncompromising. In the UP MI we have designated trail systems for motorised activity and hoofing activity...heck...even the snowmobiles hit each other after the bars let out anyway...no need for the hikers to come into play....lol

[Mika]

The rub in all of this is dealing with "your right of freedom to..." and "my right to freedom from..." when the turf is finite. :banghead

[PacWestGS]

we should have enough space (and respect for others) for everyone to enjoy it. anyone who has ever hiked and has had the splendor spoiled by a snowmobile or motorycle ripping by them knows what i'm talking about. anyone who has ever snowmobiled or trail ridden and had the splendor spoiled by almost hitting (or hitting) a snowshoer or x-country skier knows what i'm talking about. it's good to keep them apart.

attitudes that one activity is "more valid" than another, or that people have the "right" to do one thing or the other usually move us further away from a really good solution, not towards one. of course, if people were smart enough to comprehend this, most of these arguments would never occur in the first place.

I agree with what you are saying, and again the problem as I see it is 'Education and/or Knowledge'.

Here in Washington State, there must be about a million miles of hiking trails, horseback trails, horse only campgrounds, and a 1/2 million miles of mountain bike trails. They are funded through the state 'general' taxes. You will not see a motorized vehicle on any one of these trails (not even the Cops, they ride mountain bikes). You won't even see a pet dog on a majority of them, outlawed believe it or not :rolleyes

There are only five or six distant and remote areas left, maybe a combined total of 10,000 miles of trails for (off-road bikes and ATVs) or land space (snow-machines) that are paid for entirely with user licensing fees. (The f***ers in the state house are always stealing that money for pet-projects, and closing ORV areas, saying we don't have the money) Sell it then, privatize the ORV park, I know several people who would buy the land.

I have to drive hundreds of miles to ride my dirt bike in a 'Special Place' then there are a whole list of laws dumped on top of that, noise control, registration, safety equipment, bla, bla. If I break the law they DNR-Police collect revenue...

I can't count the times I've been blasting down a dirt bike trail and run head-on into a horse or a mountain-biker. Crashing to keep from hitting them, (do you know what it’s like to purposefully crash yourself and bike into the ground?) I mean come-on, they have so many places I cannot go and they come to where I can go and then complain about me. That's absurd :evil :dunno

There are "SIGNS" that say what the area is used for. Maybe Jeff Foxworthy needs to give them a sign, 'I'm an idiot' and can't read or hear the 92-decible motorcycle coming towards me at ludicrous speed.

I don't know, this isn't supposed to be a complaining rant, but where is the justice? It seems that the ‘Tree Huggers’ will not be happy until everyone is in compliance with their ‘Wonderful World’ and everybody is holding hands singing Kumbyya (sic) around a fake fire.

Like where’s the LOVE?

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Russ...would the fake fire be made of bio-degradable material that is non-combustible and non-fattening?...'cause if not I'm out of here...lol

[PacWestGS]

Russ...would the fake fire be made of bio-degradable material that is non-combustible and non-fattening?...'cause if not I'm out of here...lol

:D :ha :ha :rofl It would be a "Duraflame" compressed sawdust and paraffin wax log, because in all but the state of California it has been determined that it produces less pollutions than 'WOOD".

(California voters determined through proposition 65 that this 'log' emits carbon monoxide, soot, and other combustion by-products which are known by the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects or reproductive harm) No sh*t that what it says on the wrapper… :deal

Like living next to a Pulp/Lumber mill hasn't caused any of these things in Oregon/Washington? :dunno

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

hehehe...yes nearly all of our paint products have to have that label on for the same reasons...it should read "if you are smart enough to eat this then you should be smart enough to know what will happen"...lol. I think I will go and hug a tree now hehehee.

[PacWestGS]

I think I will go and hug a tree now hehehee.

Andy, watch out for the steel rail-road spikes they (environmentalists) drive into them to injure/kill loggers. You might get hurt.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

I will wear my ozone friendly "makes me look thin" anti-tree hugger underwear that will dispell evil doers of harm to me...hehehee...or I will just have to keep wearing the vile of toxic sludge around my neck to keep Captain Planet away from me...lol

[Honu]

We all have an impact on our own little environment. I try to make comparative trade offs. I recycle everything that I can and compost my vegi material (which is helpful for my garden), use a push mower for the lawn to try and justify all of the riding that I do, (just for the sake of riding-not to get anywhere inparticular). I am happy when there is nothing in my trash can at the end of the week, but there are some weeks when my house remodeling projects require a full truck load to go to the dump.

Gotta love the tearing it up snowmobiling, until I'm on cross-country skiis, then those snowmobilers are a pain in the a$$.

Every time I go on a backpacking trip for more than a week, where I am required to pack out everything -even my own waste, It reminds me of just how much I require to exist, and how damn irritating waste is when you have to carry it around on your back. This gives me a baseline to remember when I go back home.

I'm no environmental saint, but I do prefer clean air and healthy plant life to massive smog and miles of debris. I'm not going to stop riding for environmental reasons, but would be willing to make compromises if my form of pleasure could have less of a negative impact on the world around me.

I know of no people who like to camp out at the city dump, just for the fresh air and scenery. Do you?

[kenk]

Thats a good idea! How about "is this website boring" because the "tree huggers" are about to get wound up. :fight

Until I see every one of them riding a bicycle and sitting in the dark, I'm throwing all my beer cans and milk jugs in the trash. :bottle

Real funny. However, for those of you that think your saving the environment by riding a motorcycle...think again. Our BMWs are plenty dirty when compared to our cars or SUVs. Pretent your saving the environment, but the facts are you are saving gas with better gas mileage will polluting significantly more.

I ride knowing the facts. My BMWs are environmental terrorists. I don't pretend anything else.

But then again..who give a damn??? It's just campfire!

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

:blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :blah :

[lorazepam]

Real funny. However, for those of you that think your saving the environment by riding a motorcycle...think again. Our BMWs are plenty dirty when compared to our cars or SUVs. Pretent your saving the environment, but the facts are you are saving gas with better gas mileage will polluting significantly more.

I ride knowing the facts. My BMWs are environmental terrorists. I don't pretend anything else.

But then again..who give a damn??? It's just campfire!

Just trying to figure out how something that burns one gallon of gas every 45 miles makes more pollution than something that burns two gallons of the same fuel in the same distance. Could you esplain that one Lucy?

[Hodag]

Just trying to figure out how something that burns one gallon of gas every 45 miles makes more pollution than something that burns two gallons of the same fuel in the same distance. Could you esplain that one Lucy?

its all about emissions my friend.
mpg does not equal clean burning.

For instance me eating 4 brats with kraut, 12 beers, and a half of wheel of cheese my resulting emissions will be much cleaner than someone that loads up on beans, tofu and soy milk. (blow-by not included)

[BubbaZanetti]

We all have an impact on our own little environment. I try to make comparative trade offs. I recycle everything that I can and compost my vegi material (which is helpful for my garden), use a push mower for the lawn to try and justify all of the riding that I do, (just for the sake of riding-not to get anywhere inparticular). I am happy when there is nothing in my trash can at the end of the week, but there are some weeks when my house remodeling projects require a full truck load to go to the dump.

Gotta love the tearing it up snowmobiling, until I'm on cross-country skiis, then those snowmobilers are a pain in the a$$.

Every time I go on a backpacking trip for more than a week, where I am required to pack out everything -even my own waste, It reminds me of just how much I require to exist, and how damn irritating waste is when you have to carry it around on your back. This gives me a baseline to remember when I go back home.

I'm no environmental saint, but I do prefer clean air and healthy plant life to massive smog and miles of debris. I'm not going to stop riding for environmental reasons, but would be willing to make compromises if my form of pleasure could have less of a negative impact on the world around me.

I know of no people who like to camp out at the city dump, just for the fresh air and scenery. Do you?



i'm gonna attempt to re-jack this thread away from motorcycles,

i pretty much agree with this statement entirely and while i feel off road motorsports enthuasiast have a right to their enjoyment, its not the money they spend nor the way that they generally treat land they use that would allow them any sympathy from me. from what i see, as an avid x-country skiier in the winter is a general lack of care from the snowmobiling community. they tend to; 1. destroy good skiing trails/roads, 2. pack in a lot of crap with them for their tooling around (beers, highly packaged food, cigarette butts, ect) and 3 have the same "i'm in something bigger than you get out of my way" mentality that the SUV drivers have on our highways. i'm not saying a solitary skiier is a better individual than your average snowmobiler, i just think that their choice of activity is much less environmentally impacting. it does seem like there is a premium placed, in this country, on how much you spend on something or how big/loud/flashy it is. i think someone who works their ass off training as a cross country skiier/runner/pedal bike rider has as much right (if not more) to use something as a weekend warrior out there on their toy for a good time

[Hodag]

"Earth First"
we can strip mine the other planets later


for what its worth mother nature doesn't care what we drive, how we live, how much garbage we produce, etc...
the earth will win every battle against any living thing,
just ask any dinosaur.

[kbasa]

Just trying to figure out how something that burns one gallon of gas every 45 miles makes more pollution than something that burns two gallons of the same fuel in the same distance. Could you esplain that one Lucy?

It's about emissions. Different vehicles burn their gasoline to different levels of completeness, which is responsible for wide variations in the emissions a vehicle will emit per gallon of gas consumed.

[The_Veg]

With that in mind, there is no reason why bikes can't be cleaner than cars and still be really fun. With such high power-to-weight ratios and electronic engine management, we should be getting 800 MPG and emitting lilac nectar. OK that last sentence was humour (although in the right direction), but the one preceeding it was not. C'mon motorcycle industry! If you want to keep growing and getting more popular, you need to step up to the plate on this one.