The BMW Mothership

[Kbrick]

Any input would be welcome on this subject.
It seems to me BMW is spending a lot of money on developing new motorcycles for us all to enjoy. In the not to distant past it was two valve aircooled twins with different clothes for almost 15 years(the loved airheads).
Then came the K series for 15 years or so, and then the reinvention of the twins with the oil head series. A history of long product cycle is apparent here and that is good for us the consumer/rider. Kudos, BMW. Oh and as an after thought the new single with carbs/fuel injection, a different twig on the family tree.
On the horizon, after the fury of new oilheads,and K series, a new twin branch is appearing the T line.
A couple of decades ago BMW was going to pull the plug on all this motorcycle business and now look at us!
My bottom line question is has BMW found a way to make money by spending on r & d and giving us such wonderful toys as Paralever, Telelever, Monoarm, ABS, FI, and any other funny names I may have missed (There are a lot of them).
And if so thanks guys.

[James.A]

I recall an article in the business press(WSJ I think)in the mid-90's where an executive stated that motorcycles contributed significantly to profits.

[CustomSarge]

I'm afraid that innovation, for the sake of ITSELF, has engulfed our marque. It isn't the first or last, just the lead string of marketing MORONS that feel "sell them an expensive one now" is better than "a good one now, a better one in 10-15 years" ETC
Maybe they're right, mayhaps being >40 sets up an ethos of "it was fine; why change". Flipside that with reports (anectodotal +) of problems::: I'm no guru... (the best path ain't obvious)
I admit to admiring the fresh tech, I just distain the proprietary coven of its' behaviour.
BMW reminds me of : in computers:
Texas Instruments 9900 series : big power, proprietary internals
Apple Macintosh series: See Previous

......<<<)))

[BubbaZanetti]

i was thinking about this looking at ON the other day, and the picture of that last series of airhead GSs comming off the assembly line in 1996. Its simply amazing how long they held on to that technology for, granted paralever and a few style updates, but still a similiar beast to a 1970 /5.

[j-budimlya]

that attempts to make a high quality product....and...

a unique product....and a product that is in some ways better than some other of the competition.....

It gives us some choices.....

Just imagine if all the bikes were engineered in Japan....

Boring.....

[Callmethebreeze]

It seems to me that there are already numerous and innovative choices in the motorcycle world....including Japan. The Hayabusa, FJR 1300 and ST1300 are anything but boring. Ever ridden one? Better buckle up your helmet an extra notch. Look closely at the R1200RT/S does their styling resemble any of the aforementioned?
BMW has seemingly changed its view of the world. The two "BMW" dealerships in CT also sell Aprillia, Ducati, Triumph and Victory!
Originally, customers bought BMW for dependability as well as a sort of geeky chic. I believe that this is changing. The market is driving BMW not the otherr way around.
I agree with Custom Sarge on trhis one, innovation for its own sake isn't enough.
Changes also have to meet the dual standards of dependability and function. In my personal experience, 38K mainly long distance miles on my RT seems a bit early for the ABS to fail.

Breeze

[dlearl476]

>The Hayabusa, FJR 1300 and ST1300 are anything but boring. Ever ridden one?

Yes, actually. Save the Hayabusa.

>The market is driving BMW not the otherr way around.

I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees. IMHO, the K1200S has the same qualities that differentiate it from the aformentioned bikes that differentiated the R75/5 from IT'S contemporaries. BMW didn't make the first 750 twin but, aside from perhaps Ducati's 750 GT, what bike can even touch it today? How many are still on the road compared to /5s? I think in 30 years that same will be true of a modern K compared to the "parts bikes" from Japan that manage to survive.

[Callmethebreeze]

>The Hayabusa, FJR 1300 and ST1300 are anything but boring. Ever ridden one?

Yes, actually. Save the Hayabusa.

>The market is driving BMW not the otherr way around.

I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees. IMHO, the K1200S has the same qualities that differentiate it from the aformentioned bikes that differentiated the R75/5 from IT'S contemporaries. BMW didn't make the first 750 twin but, aside from perhaps Ducati's 750 GT, what bike can even touch it today? How many are still on the road compared to /5s? I think in 30 years that same will be true of a modern K compared to the "parts bikes" from Japan that manage to survive.

Timber!!!!!....ah now I can see more clearly. Thanks for the tip.
R75 vs. contemporaries...let see Triumph Trident / Bonneville glory years, Norton Commandos (still a few of those around). Noone is arguing durability here. The thread started out with innovation. Is the K1200 innovative? How?

Breeze
BTW
What's a "parts bike?"

[Callmethebreeze]

>The Hayabusa, FJR 1300 and ST1300 are anything but boring. Ever ridden one?

Yes, actually. Save the Hayabusa.

>The market is driving BMW not the otherr way around.

I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees. IMHO, the K1200S has the same qualities that differentiate it from the aformentioned bikes that differentiated the R75/5 from IT'S contemporaries. BMW didn't make the first 750 twin but, aside from perhaps Ducati's 750 GT, what bike can even touch it today? How many are still on the road compared to /5s? I think in 30 years that same will be true of a modern K compared to the "parts bikes" from Japan that manage to survive.

Timber!!!!!....ah now I can see more clearly. Thanks for the tip.
R75 vs. contemporaries...let see Triumph Trident / Bonneville glory years, Norton Commandos (still a few of those around). No one is arguing durability here. We know oil heads are bulletproof. Did any other manufacturer jump on the design? The thread started out with innovation. Is the K1200 innovative? How? Does it share technology already on the market?

Breeze
BTW
What's a "parts bike?"

[kbasa]

I read something a few years ago that claimed it wasn't fair to even call a BMW a motorcycle, they were so exotic.

Hossack and Telelever front ends. FI across the range. ABS on everything. Parallel and boxer twins with as advanced an engine control system as can be manufacturered. 100hp/liter on the boxers.

When you combine that kind of technical innovation with real world usage, you have a unique value proposition. That's what BMW is selling - exotic technology at competitive prices with excellent usability in every day usage.

The big Japanese makers, along with Ducati, Triumph and Aprilia, have been introducing new bikes on a three year cycle. Ducati, it seems, introduces a new version of one of their bikes about every 6 months, by the looks of it.

BMW has traditionally been on a longer development cycle. And they got their ass kicked in sales. Folks bought a whole bunch of bikes a couple years ago when they had attractive financing deals, but when the financing died, so did the sales volume. If price is what you need to sell your product, you have problems with the product. Witness the big American manufacturers blowing cars out with the "employee discount" pricing. Do you think you'll ever see Lexus or Honda or BMW doing that with their cars? Not likely because the product sells itself and the pricing is appropriate for the percieved value.

BMW has been working to enhance their products by reducing weight, adding power and building bikes people really want to buy without having to go to the mat on pricing. The new bikes are evidence of that approach. In every instance, they've replaced an existing model with one that has more power, less weight and better usability.

The level of innovation is what BMW thinks will separate them from their competition. HDs are known for innovation (even though they have a really neat series of engineering solutions working in their bikes these days), Honda and the rest of the Japanese manufacturers are working on just refining concepts and methodology introduced almost 20 years ago on their bikes, and the Italians are doing the same. BMW is the company coming up with new stuff and they're hoping to make riding not only safer, but their bikes more attractive.

After all, they're a business and businesses stay operating when they sell more stuff.

[Callmethebreeze]

Dave, Thanks for the thought provoking response. So if BMW is doing the innovating, then why aren't the others copying it? Are we seeing telelever on the big race bikes? Where are the jugs on the Yamahas? Are they(Italians, Brits, Japanese and Americans refining 20 year old technology or going down a paralell route?

I see BMW putting out "feelers" i.e. the rockster. I see the R1200RT and RS looking very much like Japanese sport tourers. Aren't these market forces? Does BMW want to remain a niche market company such as Lexus?

You're correct of course, sales are what companies are about. My question goes to does BMW value the other aspects of the product i.e. reliability of newer models; customer service and finally how user friendly are newer products to the owner/wrencher?

Breeze

[MarkF]

I bought a Oilhead in 2000 because it had a telelever front end and single sided, shaft swingarm. The Guzzis I looked at were not much different than my 1984. Now the Guzzis are getting closer to that 2000 BMW but BMW is moving ahead. I would love a 2004 R1150RT or 2005 R1200GS but most likely my next bike will be the next naked hexhead, whatever they call it.

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

Another twist on this subject too, is that BMW are experimenting with value programmes with the HP and the new S that incorporate th training days, trips, gear packages etc and their own identity clubs as it were, very similar to the marketing drivers that are used in the auto industry very successfully.

Whilst it is still hard to see real innovation in any motorcycle due to it's small stature in comparison to a much larger canvas to paint and sculpt as with a car or truck, it is definitely in the styling and the absolute necessity to get the dyno results to the public it seems. It is hard to beat the classiclally styled lines of an MV Brutale for sheer artistry, they have condensed as much character into that short little bike as can possibly be added. Of course this is subjective to the viewer, unfortunately performance is very often not as fast as the lines portray either. BMW seem to have copied some lines, invoked some others and have definitely added a few widgets and gadgets with some cool names to grab the over-espresso conflabs eh?

The new BMWs are definitely getting to the rice rocket look in a general way, although when the stats shine through, and I use for example the recent article about the new S model, the facts are startling. The new bikes have demonstrated improvement and definitely huge performance gains compared to where they were at least.

A German moto that goes faster than the money from the bank? Previously unheard of. I believe this is the press that is giving BMW the edge over the competition even more so than any real development. BMW have simply joined the market in a real competitive sense now, and the market hype will help them the rest of the way as it does with the cars etc. A very fine product for a very fine price tag...tradition for this segment no?

[lkchris]

My bottom line question is has BMW found a way to make money by spending on r & d and giving us such wonderful toys as Paralever, Telelever, Monoarm, ABS, FI, and any other funny names I may have missed (There are a lot of them).
And if so thanks guys.

There's a whole economic spectrum to consider.

BMW spends a fortune racing in Formula 1, too.

Perhaps having motorcycles in the lineup is a way to enhance the general "sporting" image of the cars in a similar fashion.

Not every little thing has to make a sales-costs profit.

Since BMW now offers a 507 hp V-10 M5, it's not surprising what's happening with K-bikes. The days of making tame, easily maintained motorcycles for old fat guys with bib overalls seem (thankfully) over.

[kbasa]

Dave, Thanks for the thought provoking response. So if BMW is doing the innovating, then why aren't the others copying it? Are we seeing telelever on the big race bikes? Where are the jugs on the Yamahas? Are they(Italians, Brits, Japanese and Americans refining 20 year old technology or going down a paralell route?

I see BMW putting out "feelers" i.e. the rockster. I see the R1200RT and RS looking very much like Japanese sport tourers. Aren't these market forces? Does BMW want to remain a niche market company such as Lexus?

You're correct of course, sales are what companies are about. My question goes to does BMW value the other aspects of the product i.e. reliability of newer models; customer service and finally how user friendly are newer products to the owner/wrencher?

Breeze


As far as the tech stuff goes, I think we're seeing two different paths of development. The rest of the world works with racing derived innovation, while BMW goes with real world innovation. In a market that's hung up on numerical representations of performance, racing derived technology is an easier sell.

I think BMW sees that they couldn't continue as they had. They'd develop one platform, hang different bodywork on it and say it did different things. What you get from that is a bike that doesn't do anything as well as the competitors, which costs sales.

BMW seems determined to be a niche player and the conversations I've had with them indicate they're always going to be that way.

I can't speak to the Kseries bikes, but as a guy with two hexheads in the garage they're no more difficult to service than my airhead or any of the oilheads we've owned (still own). The only exception to that is the brake system. I know there are manual ways to bleed/service them, but I'll probably give my dealer $75 to deal with it. It's beyond what I'd like to deal with.

Other than that, a valve adjustment is as easy as ever, fluid changes are as easy as ever. They've even gone to mineral oil in the clutch system so it never needs to be bled/changed as it doesn't attract water.

Reliability? 17K on the GS with no issues and 4.5K on the RT without issue.

[kbasa]

There's a whole economic spectrum to consider.

BMW spends a fortune racing in Formula 1, too.

Perhaps having motorcycles in the lineup is a way to enhance the general "sporting" image of the cars in a similar fashion.

Not every little thing has to make a sales-costs profit.

Since BMW now offers a 507 hp V-10 M5, it's not surprising what's happening with K-bikes. The days of making tame, easily maintained motorcycles for old fat guys with bib overalls seem (thankfully) over.

Correct. Compare the images of MB and BMW. BMW has a sporting image, even though MB races extensively.

The difference is that BMW has a motorcycle company as their "other business" and MB has a heavy truck company in the same role.

[GeoffMiller]

Hey Ikchris! If you are ever in the Minneapolis area and an old fat guy in bibs on a K1200RS blows your doors off, make sure to wave. I'll wave back! My Dickies bibs are the perfect riding outfit. Cheap, comfy, and NO buttcrack :laugh

[Callmethebreeze]

Hey Chris,
I like to go fast far and often. I don't wear bib overalls although my leathers are a larger size than I started out. In my mind I'm still at my SEAL weight of 185. In reality, I still enjoy adjusting the valves and brakes. I can change the tires if I have to. I do object to paying someone eighty dollars an hour to troubleshoot an ABS system and motronic. Call me me cheap. I'm a Scotsman so I've heard it before laddie.
So, you enjoy the "service" experience? Make an appointment two weeks in advance even if you're broken down, ride or trailer it in; get the phone call that says we're backed up and can't get to it until Tuesday; the second phone call to inform you they have found other issues; and finally the dreaded phonecall that they don't have the parts in stock but they will be here by Tuesday next week.
Oh yeah, high tech is the way to go if you don't ride everyday; trade in every two years or plan to have a meaningful relationship with Werner, your certified technician.

Just Kidding,

Breeze

[GeoffMiller]

SEAL weight? I'm thinkin' I'm more sea lion! (I guess it's pretty entertaining to watch me get out of a pool!} There'll always be a debate about new vs. old style technology. I think thatthe newer features are worth the added complexity. Who really wants to fiddle with points, timing lights and all of the rest? It was hard for me to part with my airhead. I did maintain a two bike garage for a while which gave me the chance to hop on the airhead after a few thousand miles on the K. I really wouldn't want to go back. I hear all of the complaints about the new brake systems. I think its great to be able to almost launch myself over the bars with a slight squeeze on the brake lever. Granted, if and when the electronics fail, you are pretty much dead in the water. Then again, how many of us carry a coil? Unless you have the parts, you are still going to be walkin'. In the automobile world, I can't think of the last time that I had an electronics failure. This stuff is getting more reliable all the time.

[The_Veg]

old fat guys with bib overalls

That sounds exactly like my friend Ken in Oklahoma. He's an Airhead guy; just got himself a really gorgeous R100RS.

[kbasa]

SEAL weight? I'm thinkin' I'm more sea lion! (I guess it's pretty entertaining to watch me get out of a pool!} There'll always be a debate about new vs. old style technology. I think thatthe newer features are worth the added complexity. Who really wants to fiddle with points, timing lights and all of the rest? It was hard for me to part with my airhead. I did maintain a two bike garage for a while which gave me the chance to hop on the airhead after a few thousand miles on the K. I really wouldn't want to go back. I hear all of the complaints about the new brake systems. I think its great to be able to almost launch myself over the bars with a slight squeeze on the brake lever. Granted, if and when the electronics fail, you are pretty much dead in the water. Then again, how many of us carry a coil? Unless you have the parts, you are still going to be walkin'. In the automobile world, I can't think of the last time that I had an electronics failure. This stuff is getting more reliable all the time.

Remember when people thought that the arrival of the K series was a signal that the End Times were near?

:ha

[Callmethebreeze]

Remember when people thought that the arrival of the K series was a signal that the End Times were near?

:ha


What????? You mean they're not??????? I was misinformed!!!! :jawdrop

[dlearl476]

Remember when people thought that the arrival of the K series was a signal that the End Times were near?

:ha


The more things change, the more they stay the same.

>Is the K1200 innovative? How? Does it share technology already on the market?

How many bikes have you seen lately with Hossack front forks? Is it worth it? Ride it and decide. I thought it was fantastic.


>What's a "parts bike?"

Search ebay for 1985 Honda Motorcycle. You'll get ~1000 hits.

>Dave, Thanks for the thought provoking response. So if BMW is doing the innovating, then why aren't the others copying it? Are we seeing telelever on the big race bikes? Where are the jugs on the Yamahas? Are they(Italians, Brits, Japanese and Americans refining 20 year old technology or going down a paralell route?

IMHO, racing isn't about innovation nearly as much as it used to be. Now, it's all about "parity". Rules that limit spending and are easy to regulate, put a bunch of clones on a track and hang logos on them that the sponsors can see on TV. The reason there aren't Hossack front ends in MotoGP may not be that they're not better, it may be that they are illegal.
I think the days are gone when we see much "trickle down" from racing. I seriously doubt we'd have ABS, traction control, paddle shifting, suspension adjustments at a push of a button, etc. without racing, but nowdays it's all become too expensive and the word of the day is "spec"!

[PUDGYPAINTGUY]

good point, maybe that is also why BMW made their own racing series to make their bikes legal and get them out into the public eye?

[dlearl476]

good point, maybe that is also why BMW made their own racing series to make their bikes legal and get them out into the public eye?


No, I think BMW borrowed from H-Ds marketing strategy once again. "If you want a series where your bikes WIN, make a series where only YOUR bikes can compete." :laugh

Seriously, I think if BMW WANTED to, they could anything. They took a pig R bike and won Dakar. Numerous times, fer crissake. I think they are very wise wrapping up the "Boxer Cup" series and putting the new K in front of MotoGP fans every weekend. Do they want to win GP? I don't think so. I think their priority is F1. And with their own team, next year we'll know if it was the chassis or the engine, won't we? (I just realized I'd somehow worn my Williams F1 hat to work tonight. Let me take it off and see if I still feel the same!)

[BubbaZanetti]

If ever a brand of motorcycles was defined by the sheer power emanating from its long history of record-breaking sportbikes, Kawasaki would hold that mantel. If ever a brand would be expected to rightfully incorporate the meaning of the word “ultimate” into its newest flagship street carver, Kawasaki fits the bill. That’s just what the company has done with the Ninja® ZX™-14, a 1352cc motorcycle that is its most powerful ever, and succeeds in setting the performance standards for others to follow.

Kawasaki engineers and designers have created a motorcycle that turns its Ram Air and fuel-injected engine into the core of a powerful, torque-producing, aerodynamic stunner that will draw attention from onlookers whether on the road, or parked on the roadside. Wrapped in a choice of Passion Red, Ebony, or Candy Thunder Blue, the new ZX-14 makes blending into the scenery nearly impossible. It accelerates with ease, handles with assurance, and exudes an aura unmatched by anything else on the street.

This most powerful of all Kawasaki-branded motorcycles was created to do everything right. Right from the beginning.

Its aerodynamics reminds users that Kawasaki is indeed an aircraft maker. The blending of form, power, and handling characteristics have delivered a debut unit that is so balanced in all aspects that the word—ultimate—seems barely adequate to describe it.

This all new in-line four has evolved from the Ninja ZX-12R and features a bore and stroke of 84 x 61mm packed into a purposefully designed compact outline that minimizes engine width, leaving it at virtually the same width as the 12R.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/091605zx14_top.jpg


and that is the problem,

no matter what BMW or Ducati or anyone does, they'll never have the power to cost ratio of the japanese liter+ bikes, man, this new one's gonna be a scream

still, not my cup of tea