Large White O Ring

[mikea]

After reading various posts about the "$2000 O ring", I went out to the garage last night to check mine. The bike is a 1992 R100R and the owners manual makes no mention of shims.
Using the depth guage on a caliper I arrived at a depth of ~4.28mm without any shims. With one shim the depth is ~3.82mm. Measurements varied if the guage wasn't held perfectly perpendicular to the engine case.
The o ring showed no sign of any compression.
I would appreciate any advice as to the no. of shims to use or even a better measuring technique.
Thanks, Mike

[38107]

Use the shim. it's purpose is to keep the o-ring from being damaged by the sharp edge of the filter can. There is a distance from the face of the engine block to the can, but don't remember what it should be. If the can has never been disturbed (removed and reinstalled) it should be ok. To answer your question, yes you do need to use the shim.

[BubbaZanetti]

use the o-ring and then the metal shim against the outer cover, don't use the paper gasket on the outer cover, it negates the use of the shim. the "changing oil" article in this months "keep em flying" is the best airhead oil changing resource i've seen. i used to get confused as to what to use and what not to use everytime i changed my airhead's oil...........

[The_Veg]

The filter was de-edged years ago from what I've heard (never seen an edge on mine), but use the shim anyway as it will give the O-ring more compression and therefore a tighter seal.

[lkchris]

use the o-ring and then the metal shim against the outer cover, don't use the paper gasket on the outer cover, it negates the use of the shim. the "changing oil" article in this months "keep em flying" is the best airhead oil changing resource i've seen. i used to get confused as to what to use and what not to use everytime i changed my airhead's oil...........


Poor choice of words.

Shim contacts inner filter canister.

It does NOT contact outer cover.

When installing, put o-ring on outer cover and shim into engine, "glued" in with a little oil.

Purpose is to protect o-ring from sharp edge of canister. Frankly, there is nothing for the o-ring to seal against without the shim, unless your bike is a later one with the rolled-over edge to the filter canister. The shim is not required with these bikes.

Finally, it's NOT a shim, as its purpose is NOT spacing but rather protection. Both the BMW parts system and the BMW service manuals call it a "washer."

[mikea]

Thanks for the replies. This site is great.
I finally used 2 shims (washers?) behind the o ring. The cannister is apparently set in too deep on my bike and I wanted to be sure there is sufficient pressure on the o ring. So much to learn.

Mike

[BubbaZanetti]

Poor choice of words



sorry about that, yeah, i had it backwards, and i'd always assumed the metal ring acted as both a protector AND a shim, due to using/not using the paper gasket on the outside depending on if you had an o-ring or not, but thinking about it, of course you wouldn't need the paper if you already had a "seal" from the o-ring

[lorazepam]

sorry about that, yeah, i had it backwards, and i'd always assumed the metal ring acted as both a protector AND a shim, due to using/not using the paper gasket on the outside depending on if you had an o-ring or not, but thinking about it, of course you wouldn't need the paper if you already had a "seal" from the o-ring


Hey Bubba, come get your etch a sketch, that will keep you occupied for a while :lol

[BubbaZanetti]

Hey Bubba, come get your etch a sketch, that will keep you occupied for a while :lol


national's less than a month away, i gotta figure out a mount for that thing

[santarosa]

I'm new to the $2000 O ring issue. I have purchased what I blieve to be a stock 83 r100 with 45k. If I purchase an oil filter from a dealer tomorrow do I need to do anything other than pull out the old filter and install the new replacement? I'm a new member this year. Can you direct me to an Owners News article? Thanks to anyone who can shed light on this issue.

Happy Holidays!

[AnnapolisAirhead]

I think the metal washer is to protect the o-ring, as Kent implies. It creates a wider band to prevent the o-ring from being sucked in towards the filter. I still use the paper gasket on the very outside.

[20774]

I'm new to the $2000 O ring issue. I have purchased what I blieve to be a stock 83 r100 with 45k. If I purchase an oil filter from a dealer tomorrow do I need to do anything other than pull out the old filter and install the new replacement? I'm a new member this year. Can you direct me to an Owners News article? Thanks to anyone who can shed light on this issue.

In March 2008, Matt Parkhouse had on ON article on oil coolers and filters. Anton has a good description of the oil filter and o-ring situation at:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/

Since you're pretty new to the forum, I won't send you directly to Snowbum's article on this. I'm afraid your eyes will glaze over and send you screaming down the street. :laugh For future reference, here's his website of tech articles:

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/techindex.htm

But I would suggest you don't just change the filter and move on, but rather do some investigation so you know what you have and also know that you are doing the right thing. It's all about the canister depth as has been written above. Anton has a link on his page to another page which details how all that works. He even provides a table for various depths of canisters and what the stack up of shims and paper gaskets are. This is very useful.

As has been mentioned above, the shim is both a protector of the o-ring as well as a way to create o-ring compression if the canister is too deep. The paper gasket's job is only to space the cover out away from the block to reduce compression in case the canister is not deep enough. The o-ring does the sealing so the paper gasket really has no oil to seal out. The gasket was needed on the /6 and earlier bikes because there was no large white o-ring to seal the oil.

Spend some time looking over Anton's page and start with some knowledge about what you're looking at.

[AnnapolisAirhead]

+1 on Kurt's words.

On Antons site he has a clear diagram (albeit with an oil cooler) showing the order of things. You should still read and measure yours though.

http://www.largiader.com/tech/filters/canister.html

Note: he refers to the metal washer as a shim. In either case, what more than the semantics, is the order of things.

[mneblett]

It creates a wider band to prevent the o-ring from being sucked in towards the filter.
A minor tweak -- it does create a wider surface for the o-ring to rest on, but it was originally there because on the earlier bikes the end of of the canister facing outward (the surface the o-ring would rest against if no metal shim were present) was quite narrow/sharp and could cut the o-ring, allowing pressurized oil to bypass the filter and fall back into the sump.

At some point, BMW started installing canisters with top edges rolled over/formed to cure the cutting problem. The shims now are used primarily to make up for too-deeply-installed canisters, as well as providing a wider surface for the o-ring to flatten and seal against.

[83014]

I think the metal washer is to protect the o-ring, as Kent implies. It creates a wider band to prevent the o-ring from being sucked in towards the filter. I still use the paper gasket on the very outside.

After years of using the paper gasket, I deferred to the collective wisdom of our acknowledged mechanic gurus and eliminated it. I have had no leaks and believe that it's absence does help the O-ring seal better.

[AntonLargiader]

On cooler-equipped bikes with a rolled canister, I put the shim against the cover. That gives a nice rubber seal against the case and the canister.

That doesn't work with the non-cooler cover (for the short filter) as the shim won't lie flat against the cover.

[santarosa]

Thank you all for your prompt and considered responses. I'll visit the links provided today. Most helpful. From what I've read so far about this vintage R100(83-84) it should be a pretty reliable bike as long as one makes sure the valves are in proper adjustment (particularly the exhaust valves). In any event, I find the simplicity of design pretty compelling although I have everything to learn about doing basic maintenance myself. Again, gracias.

[BubbaZanetti]

disregard Bubba from 4+ years ago posts, he wasn't as up on airheads back then as he is now.:laugh

[cjack]

When I encounter someone who is new to the airhead, and the airhead they have gotten works well (oil light out and all), I recommend they put back what they found when changing the oil as to using the paper gasket. And further mention they can inspect the "shim" and oring to note some compression, etc. to validate the previous owner's install.

[88bmwJeff]

When I encounter someone who is new to the airhead, and the airhead they have gotten works well (oil light out and all), I recommend they put back what they found when changing the oil as to using the paper gasket. And further mention they can inspect the "shim" and oring to note some compression, etc. to validate the previous owner's install.

This is kind of what I've done. I have measured the depth, and checked the compression of the O-Ring. The bike had one shim and the gasket used, and I've always replaced it with new ones. I've thought about removing the gasket, but the bike seems to have good oil pressure. The light goes out quickly and stays off until the bike is shut down. So, I see little use in changing what's working.

[lkchris]

make up for too-deeply-installed canisters

I'd like to see some statistics on this, as I currently consider this the most over-hyped bunch of baloney imaginable.

It seems the typical "I as genius mechanic with very little education know SO much more than engineers back at auto companies." All part of the sales pitch so many independent mechanics seemingly think they have to employ to sell their services.

It also implies BMW isn't very good at precision when it comes to making motors, and I just can't see that.

Of course to add to this silliness, it may seem BMW is good at "precision" after all, as they somehow know they only need to include one "shim" (washer) in each kit.

My "guess" (because the statistics don't exist) is that in 99% of the cases, bikes with straight-edge filter canisters need only one "washer," and bikes with rolled-over edge canisters need zero/zip/nada washers.

As for the other contents of the "kits," BMW hasn't made a bike since the /6 era that needs the paper gasket. They simply aren't going to make more than one kit, but I am kind of surprised they include the gasket at all in the oil cooler kits. Maybe something I don't know about retrofitting coolers to /6 engines.

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?

[lkchris]

The bike had one shim and the gasket used, and I've always replaced it with new ones. I've thought about removing the gasket, but the bike seems to have good oil pressure. The light goes out quickly and stays off until the bike is shut down. So, I see little use in changing what's working.

Be careful when starting bike in sub-zero conditions with 20W-50 dino oil on board. I went for years with my G/S using the gasket before I saw a leak in these conditions. This was months since the relevant oil change. No gaskets and no problems since.

[mneblett]

I'd like to see some statistics on this, as I currently consider this the most over-hyped bunch of baloney imaginable.

It seems the typical "I as genius mechanic with very little education know SO much more than engineers back at auto companies." All part of the sales pitch so many independent mechanics seemingly think they have to employ to sell their services.

It also implies BMW isn't very good at precision when it comes to making motors, and I just can't see that.

Of course to add to this silliness, it may seem BMW is good at "precision" after all, as they somehow know they only need to include one "shim" (washer) in each kit.

My "guess" (because the statistics don't exist) is that in 99% of the cases, bikes with straight-edge filter canisters need only one "washer," and bikes with rolled-over edge canisters need zero/zip/nada washers.

As for the other contents of the "kits," BMW hasn't made a bike since the /6 era that needs the paper gasket. They simply aren't going to make more than one kit, but I am kind of surprised they include the gasket at all in the oil cooler kits. Maybe something I don't know about retrofitting coolers to /6 engines.

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?
Believe whatcha want, but see, for example, this page regarding the *known* variances in BMW's installed canister depths (scroll down to para. 32): http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/Oil.htm

BMW knows a *huge* amount about engine design and manufacture, but that doesn't mean they are totally immune from having a design or two which is capable of being mis-assembled on the production line (as they've also proved by the final drive crown bearing failures).

Discussed at length for many years by Oak, Bob, others -- good enough for me.

[cjack]

I'd like to see some statistics on this, as I currently consider this the most over-hyped bunch of baloney imaginable.

snip

It also implies BMW isn't very good at precision when it comes to making motors, and I just can't see that.

Of course to add to this silliness, it may seem BMW is good at "precision" after all, as they somehow know they only need to include one "shim" (washer) in each kit.

snip



The washer was never a precision shim. It was and is a washer.

I believe BMW engineering is the best in the world...BUT...their quality control sucks. The home mechanics never said (to me at least) that they knew more than the engineers...but they have had to figure out what the engineers intended and make it happen to their bikes. And this has been going on for the last 40 years in my experience.
When it's running...the BMW is the best motorcycle in the world.
That is why I keep riding them.

[BubbaZanetti]

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?

there are clearly ways to prove that canisters are seated to the right depth and whether or not the engine is running at proper oil pressure.

sure there are probably thousands of bikes out there that run "fine", but that doesn't mean they're running as they should. rather than thinking of this as a manufacturing "defect" it should be analyzed on a bike to bike basis. i fail to see how something as simple as doing a little math with regards to shim placement, compression and taking an oil pressure reading could possibly be so controversial.

[20774]

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?

Bulletin 11 021 82 (March 1982) -- has a note that in the 1982 production, a new canister was used and indicated that the paper gasket and shim (it says shim) were deleted. Previous models were to use on o-ring, one shim, and one gasket to seal the filter cover. Sort of sounds like the gasket's purpose was the just seal the cover.

Bulletin 11 024 83 (May 1983) -- discusses that during any service or engine rebuilds, the depth of the canister should be measured. It shows a cutaway with a max of 3.8mm and a min of 3.1mm. It says that excessive clearance will cause a poor oil seal and the oil pressure will be reduced or fail. The bullentin references 11 011 78 for further details...I don't have this bulletin.

That would suggest that BMW expected for the depth to be within the above specific range in which case the o-ring, shim, and/or gasket would suffice. For any deviations outside those dimensions, the user must do something to ensure proper sealing and oil pressure. Logically, one doubles up on shims or adds gaskets to keep the proper dimensions.

And with any other manufactured item, there will be variations. Hence the issues of these bulletins.

[AntonLargiader]

All part of the sales pitch so many independent mechanics seemingly think they have to employ to sell their services.

Hmmm.. my web page is free for reading.

It also implies BMW isn't very good at precision when it comes to making motors, and I just can't see that.

I guess you don't work on them.

My "guess" (because the statistics don't exist) is that in 99% of the cases, bikes with straight-edge filter canisters need only one "washer," and bikes with rolled-over edge canisters need zero/zip/nada washers.

My experience and data indicate that the newer 'rolled edge' canisters are too short and can recede into the case or be installed too deeply. I've seen canisters well over 4mm deep. The best solution IMO is to install a new canister with a shim under it so it can't go deeper than the proper depth.

Some canisters are so shallow they damage the O-ring. Some are so deep they let the pressure out. You actually know this, I think. Why pretend otherwise?

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?

From 11-024-83 (2077): "We suggest that during any service or rebuilds, the depth of the oil filter canister sleeve to crankcase cover be measured."

[dduelin]

I'd like to see some statistics on this, as I currently consider this the most over-hyped bunch of baloney imaginable.

It seems the typical "I as genius mechanic with very little education know SO much more than engineers back at auto companies." All part of the sales pitch so many independent mechanics seemingly think they have to employ to sell their services.

It also implies BMW isn't very good at precision when it comes to making motors, and I just can't see that.

Of course to add to this silliness, it may seem BMW is good at "precision" after all, as they somehow know they only need to include one "shim" (washer) in each kit.

My "guess" (because the statistics don't exist) is that in 99% of the cases, bikes with straight-edge filter canisters need only one "washer," and bikes with rolled-over edge canisters need zero/zip/nada washers.

As for the other contents of the "kits," BMW hasn't made a bike since the /6 era that needs the paper gasket. They simply aren't going to make more than one kit, but I am kind of surprised they include the gasket at all in the oil cooler kits. Maybe something I don't know about retrofitting coolers to /6 engines.

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?

My cannister depth is 4.15 mm. There is no way a factory O-ring and 1 shim is going to seal properly - the O-ring won't be compressed enough. How deep is your cannister inset?

[lkchris]

Bulletin 11 024 83 (May 1983) -- discusses that during any service or engine rebuilds, the depth of the canister should be measured. It shows a cutaway with a max of 3.8mm and a min of 3.1mm. It says that excessive clearance will cause a poor oil seal and the oil pressure will be reduced or fail. The bullentin references 11 011 78 for further details...I don't have this bulletin.

I don't either.

"Isolated cases."

[mneblett]

Anybody care to reference any official documentation from BMW regarding use of "shims" to accomodate factory engine assembly lack of precision ... every time motor oil is changed?
You've provided it:

"We suggest that during any service or rebuilds, the depth of the oil filter canister sleeve to crankcase cover be measured."

"Isolated cases."
Isolated cases of *failure* -- but the potential is there for *any* engine of this era to have canister depth off. So, everyone should check theirs -- only once is necessary -- to they know whether they need to do anything.

This thread has been a good reminder to me, as I've been meaning to check my wife's /5. I put in an order for a new caliper w/depth gage yesterday :thumb

[crazydrummerdude]

This thread has been a good reminder to me, as I've been meaning to check my wife's /5.

Check for what? The $2000 o-ring is a later invention.

[83014]

You've provided it:

"We suggest that during any service or rebuilds, the depth of the oil filter canister sleeve to crankcase cover be measured."


Isolated cases of *failure* -- but the potential is there for *any* engine of this era to have canister depth off. So, everyone should check theirs -- only once is necessary -- to they know whether they need to do anything.

This thread has been a good reminder to me, as I've been meaning to check my wife's /5. I put in an order for a new caliper w/depth gage yesterday :thumb

I would think that variations in filter manufacturing could affect the length of the filter. It would be a good idea to check the depth with each filter change, not just one time.

[mneblett]

Check for what? The $2000 o-ring is a later invention.
Well, DUH! That's why I had never checked it -- I forgot about the inner cover :doh

Thanks for the reminder! :thumb

[mneblett]

I would think that variations in filter manufacturing could affect the length of the filter. It would be a good idea to check the depth with each filter change, not just one time.
For info: The issue has nothing to do with filter length -- this is about the seal between the end of the tube the filter sits in and the side of the crankcase. The filter cannot change the hard (fixed) distance between the tube (the canister) and the side wall of the block.

So, one check, and you know for all future filter changes how many shims and/or cover gaskets you need.

[83014]

You're right, of course. Mine measured at 3.135mm. Not just good, but good enough.

[AntonLargiader]

So, one check, and you know for all future filter changes how many shims and/or cover gaskets you need.

That would be nice. However, some people have found them to shift. It might be that overshimming the canister puts so much pressure on it that it will recede under O-ring pressure when the block gets hot enough. They are not that hard to push into place and they will go too deep.

As for the bulletin saying to check every time, remember that was written for service departments. Every bike is 'new' so you just check them all, every time. I do.

My R100R is about 3.7 so I use one shim. When I set a new canister I shoot for 3.5 so that shims won't be needed.

"Isolated cases..." isolated how? If they had actually isolated them there wouldn't be a bulletin, and we wouldn't be seeing canister issues on bikes made ten years later.

[mneblett]

That would be nice. However, some people have found them to shift. It might be that overshimming the canister puts so much pressure on it that it will recede under O-ring pressure when the block gets hot enough. They are not that hard to push into place and they will go too deep.
Interesting! Learned something new -- guess I'll check mine over the next couple of filter changes to see if there's any trend.

Thanks, Anton.

[jforgo]

It is simple enough to incorporate measuring the depth into your standard oil change procedure. I make it a habit to clean areas which have been under a cover of some sort anyway. So for this I have the cloth dampened with alcohol in one hand, calipers in the other. Clean then measure; scarcely adds to the time for the job.

Also, on the washer, you can tell which way the die was going when it was stamped out. there is a slight amount of sharp flashing, even bend, towards one side. That side I place against canister.