Accident Free Mileage?

[LRider]

I am a new rider (started in 2002) who took up motorcycling later in life. I have taken all the motorcycle safety courses offered in Ontario. Today I passed the final road test to get the full "M" license, the last of three levels in the Ontario graduated license system. As I was riding home from the road test, I thought about how the techniques I have been taught really do make a difference in being a safe and accident free rider. Then I thought about the BMWMOA riders who ride long distances, and wondered if these miles are accident free? (my wife has a vested interest in this discussion).

So, I was just wondering, from the veteran members who have been riding hundreds of thousands of miles, are these miles generally without accidents??

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[kbasa]

200K on BMWs since 1979. No accidents since 1980 (knocks on wood).

[cruisin]

shhhhh, ya wanna everybody to jinx themselves.

Just kidding, although there are some who believe that if you talk, brag or just make a sublime report like this it will have ill effects. I personally do not think that way and attribute accident free miles to a variety of things. Like where most of your riding takes place; large city, small town, mainly open road. Or your personal tolerance/propencity for risk or risky behavior. The type of training you have had. Skill level vs. experience. Drinking and driving.
The list could go on and on but you get the idea; there are lots of factors involved in racking up accident-free miles. I am proud to report a lifetime total of 226K without an accident during street riding (dirt is a whole nother world). I attribute my early training as the #1 contributing factor. Our local "Aurthur Fonzarelli" took several of the younger guys under his wing (iron fist actually) and taught us about counter steering, emergency braking, obstacle avoidance, proper attitude about safety and how to constantly watch the other drivers and veiw them as the enemy. Sounds like the teachings you might receive in a modern-day MSF course, right? That all started back in 1968 when I first learned to ride on a 1964 Honda 90. There is no doubt in my mind that that early training has saved my butt many times over.

Thank you DF, wherever you are.

After thinking about this some more, another outstanding factor is the # miles you drive per year. It is sort of a two-edged sword though. Lots of miles in a year mean lots more chances of encountering problems, especially if you ride in metro areas a lot. On the other hand, it also means lots of good experience which pay dividends in avoiding bad situations. If you ride very few miles in a year, then you greatly lessen the odds but also lessen the experience as well. What made me bring that up is the apparent slow accumulation of miles from my own experience. Those numbers are a little on the deceiving side though. My first 100K happened from 1968 to 1981 on four motorcycles driven mostly around small towns and on the open road. With the last 50K on a BMW R75/6 over five years. Fast forward to April of 2000 when I bought my next ride and sort-of started over. I have since logged ~126K on 3 beemers, still mostly small towns and open road type driving.

One last thought; I used to teach summer tennis camps where we would put a twist on the old saying of "practice makes perfect." The new thougt we tried to get into the heads of the kids was, "perfect practice makes perfect." The same holds true of just about everything we do, including motorcycling. So just riding around without proper attitude and technique is not in itself the best way to approach the accumulation of mileage. That's why I read and re-read david Hough's books and practice proper technique on a regular basis, usually at least weekly, sometimes more often.

Ride safe everyone!

[LRider]

Cruisin, thanks for your thoughtful post. Much appreciated!!

[dano]

I've never kept track of miles, but last accident I had (wasn't my fault BTW) was back in 1977. :clap

[manicmechanic]

Working on 200K Beemer miles(haven't figured total bike miles), only major event was 8 years ago. Close encounter of the worst kind with Jane Doe and her daughter, Fawn. Killed them, killed the R100RT, and I somehow walked, battered and bruised. It happened at 3pm, sunny day, in spring.

[Braddog]

I ride daily as a commuter, approximately 6 months a year. Because of my work/family situation, I don't take long motorcycle trips, at least not yet.

I'm one of those "re-entry" riders. I rode as a youngster, gave it up for many years, then "re-entered" the riding community, as it were.

I had a major accident as a teenager, on a rather deserted country road, in the middle of North Dakota. I would say the odds against something like that happening would be astronomical, and yet it happened.

Fast forward 25 years. I now commute daily, in traffic, to a downtown-metro area. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm a considerably better, smarter rider now, than I was as a teen. I can't count the close calls I've had over the last 4 years, yet the worst that has happened was me sliding up to, and bumping, a rear bumper of a Taurus who was dead stopped at a green light. I got a couple of small bruises on my shins from the carbs, that's it. I believe I learned a valuable lesson about target fixation that day.

Motorcycle training and classes give you the tools, it's up to the rider to use them. There's not a better way to use them than to ride. Riding for hundreds of miles on super slabs can be done rather easily. Riding curvy mountain roads, or riding in traffic on high speed freeways is something else, and requires the use of more skills. It's more about time in the saddle, the types of roads ridden, and the use of the skills that you are constantly acquiring. In my opinion, you never really quit learning about riding.

[jmerlino]

I've heard it said that everybody goes down sooner or later. Last year I had a very, very minor crash that resulted in a broken turn signal light on my bike and a few bruises on me - no damage to the car whatsoever. I'm hoping that that's what will comprise the sum total of "going down" for me.

[donkey doctor]

Hello; I have been on two wheels since '61, and have had only two accidents, both of which I could have prevented. The first occurred in '65, when I ran a red light, and went under a Plymouth. No serious damage, just torn fingernails, and a few cuts. That one smartened me up, I haven't run a red since then. The second was when a fellow in a red and white 64 Impala SS came across the centre line right at me in Grand Bend. I had to hit the ditch to avoid being killed. This happened in '67.

I firmly believe that experience is a great teacher, and have been in many incidences where it could have been pretty bad if I hadn't taken avoiding measures. I seem to have developed a kind of danger radar that gives me a caution signal whenever a potentially dangerous situation arises.

I see new bike riders with the red vests all over the place now, and think that some of the safe-ness that I feel is in the independance that a solo motorcycle represents, as opposed to the stay in line, keep your distance, dollow the leader, group ride mentality. It's kind of hard to put in writing, but an example would be going up on someones lawn rather then running into a kid who just darted out in front of you. Can you stop in time? Can you steer left? Can you keep it up on the grass? You have to process all these questions in an instant. If you have never faced this situation, how will you know how to react?

Even though I have been riding for more then 40 years, I haven't seen every danger that is out there, but I have developed a riding style that will keep me as safe as possible yet still allow me the fun that two wheeled freedom brings.

[moa84843]

So, I was just wondering, from the veteran members who have been riding hundreds of thousands of miles, are these miles generally without accidents??


They have to be "generally without accidents", because accidents are too hard on the rider, to be having a lot of them.

I have been riding many years and have had two accidents involving cars. In both cases it was just my bad luck, to be around, when a driver was being stupid. There are times when all the training in the world is not going to help you. Training, practice and having the best equipment, increases your odds of avoiding and/or surviving an accident a lot.

From personal experience I have had a lot more close calls per mile while driving in rural Missouri, than I have in Kansas City traffic. Rural driving does not always mean safer driving.

[LRider]

These are very helpful insights, especially for someone who has been riding only a few seasons. Thanks for sharing..... :thumb

[CJM]

Crash history 101:

1. 1977..crashed 1975 Norton 850 on Hwy 17S at what is now Ye Olde Fashioned Ice Cream Parlor...broken collar bone..bruised a lot.

2.1996..crashed 1977 XLCH when truck driver gave left signal and turned right

3. 1998..crashed 1977 XLCH when wife in Jeep Gand Cheerokee locked-um-up for a siren taht was no where in sight (just one reason I now ride a bike with ABS)

4. 1998..crashed 1977 XLCH while trying to find-out just how far you can lean it without crashing (a lot farther than anyone who has never ridden one thinks!)

My advice...
1.ride terrified of cars/trucks.
2.Test your and the bikes limits in very small increments.
3.Did I say to ride terrified of cars/reucks?
4.The left-turn-idiot is your worst enemy.
5.Approach all intersections with the knowledge that they will say they didn't see you, this will be after they wait until you are so close that you have no reaction window left. THEN they will turn
6. Did I say ride terrified of cars/trucks?

Be safe

MTBATP

[cruisin]

Crash history 101:

1. 1977..crashed 1975 Norton 850 on Hwy 17S at what is now Ye Olde Fashioned Ice Cream Parlor...broken collar bone..bruised a lot.

2.1996..crashed 1977 XLCH when truck driver gave left signal and turned right

3. 1998..crashed 1977 XLCH when wife in Jeep Gand Cheerokee locked-um-up for a siren taht was no where in sight (just one reason I now ride a bike with ABS)

4. 1998..crashed 1977 XLCH while trying to find-out just how far you can lean it without crashing (a lot farther than anyone who has never ridden one thinks!)

My advice...
1.ride terrified of cars/trucks.
2.Test your and the bikes limits in very small increments.
3.Did I say to ride terrified of cars/reucks?
4.The left-turn-idiot is your worst enemy.
5.Approach all intersections with the knowledge that they will say they didn't see you, this will be after they wait until you are so close that you have no reaction window left. THEN they will turn
6. Did I say ride terrified of cars/trucks?

Be safe

MTBATP


. . . and what he said in # 1. #3. and #6.

[manicmechanic]

I heard a saying years ago - "Ride scared, you live longer." Honestly, I can't disagree more. I refuse to ride scared. If things are bad enough to scare me, then maybe it's time to park it - permanently. Not saying having a pucker-inducing event is just cause, but enough to wake yourself up.

[Braddog]

I heard a saying years ago - "Ride scared, you live longer." Honestly, I can't disagree more. I refuse to ride scared. If things are bad enough to scare me, then maybe it's time to park it - permanently. Not saying having a pucker-inducing event is just cause, but enough to wake yourself up.

Exactly. It's not good to ride truly "scared". There is such a thing as being paranoid and too careful.

Being aware, completely mindful of all surroundings, is good. Being paranoid and fearful is not.

[jdcoffman]

I'm a reentry guy too. My first motorcycle accident wasforetold the day I brought home my used Honda 175...You'll wreck it within two weeks. No way I insisted I was a very mature 17 year old and I was going to be careful. Nine days later as I was sliding down the street watching my shiney red honda sliding out ahead of me I thought rats...I was riding with some friends none of which were old enough to have a license they all had 70cc trail bikes I was showing off somewhat with my massive 175 and as I was passing one of those 70cc bikes he decided to turn left and hit my front tire. That was it. No other street accidents...Since rentry back in Aug 2002 I have logged over 40k on my R1100RS....Some close calls though, be vigilant.

[Voni]

Great discussion here. BUT, I disagree strongly with accepting that you've either been down or you're going . . .

Your mind is much more powerful believing there's always more you can do to prevent - and look for it - rather than to accept and as they used to say "lay it down". I want all of the atoms of my being looking for the way out, not accepting the inevitable.

That said, knock on wood, in over 700,000 sMiles I've not had an accident. Tipped over at low to no speed, yes. Hit from behind and stayed up, yes. And I'm not planning on an accident.

Voni
sMiling

[Jim Shaw]

Your mind is much more powerful believing there's always more you can do to prevent - and look for it - rather than to accept and as they used to say "lay it down". I want all of the atoms of my being looking for the way out, not accepting the inevitable. In the flying business (arguably a different sort of environment because you can only rarely 'pull over and get off'), we used to promote a thought methodology called "doubting confidence."

The notion is that you continually doubt all about you while keeping confidence in the abilities of you and your machine. In biking, too often your first, gut reaction is inspired by fear, and lacks consideration of the alternatives. And in biking, as with airplanes, your gut reaction is way too often wrong. Doubting confidence also reinforces and amplifies the value of learning and experience.

As one who has had the pleasure of riding behind Voni, I can say that every turn and stop for her is a deliberate setup. My comment to others after that ride in Colorado was, "I can see how Paul can watch her go down the driveway on a thousand mile solo trip, and not worry much if at all for her safety."

So far, doubting confidence has worked for me. 210,000 miles with only one injurious mishap: a jammed wrist when an unlicensed, uninsured teen cage driver turned left in front of me. ABS might've saved that. I should have seen it coming.

Jim

[knary]

sorta

http://gravitysdog.smugmug.com/photos/21438751-M.jpg

:lol

[RTRandy]

Ok This might really sound stupid, but . . .

I think a lot of the difficulties some riders might get into at least with other vehicles might have a lot to do with their style of driving a car. Things like using a turn signal, keeping a safe distance, being methodical, proper lane change, staying within reason to the speed limit etc. I'm 57 and haven't had a ticket in many many years and I tend to handle the bike in traffic the same way. I can't believe the young guys on sport bikes going from one side of the highway to the other. If you ride crazy, eventually your number will come up.

I can't remember what the percentage of two wheel accidents that have to do with "another vehicle", but I believe being a good driver can at least give you a leg up in this catagory.

[LRider]

Great discussion here. BUT, I disagree strongly with accepting that you've either been down or you're going . . .

Your mind is much more powerful believing there's always more you can do to prevent - and look for it - rather than to accept and as they used to say "lay it down". I want all of the atoms of my being looking for the way out, not accepting the inevitable.

That said, knock on wood, in over 700,000 sMiles I've not had an accident. Tipped over at low to no speed, yes. Hit from behind and stayed up, yes. And I'm not planning on an accident.

Voni
sMiling





This perspective is positive and helpful. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll say again that this discussion is extremely useful for newer riders, providing real context to attitude and awareness. Sincere thanks!!
:thumb

[The_Veg]

I had not been tracking accident-free miles, but whatever the clock said it went back to zero on Saturday. Oddly enough at a cafe earlier along the way, the three of us on the ride got into a discussion about accidents we'd witnessed in the past year. I don't think it jinxed anything though and I will not develop a superstition over it.
What happened was that I made a series of mistakes. I liked Jim's references to flying. I am a lapsed private pilot and one thing that was often emphasised in flight school was that accidents were rarely traceable to one single failure- that they often are the culmination of a chain of events and that when something starts to go wrong we should break the chain. I can recall doing this once when a plane's engine gave heroic resistance to being started. My instructor said let's break the chain right now- what if it stalls at altitude and we can't get it restarted?
Anyway, what happened Saturday is that I allowed myself to accept uncomfortable circumstances by riding with a guy who rides strictly for adrenaline, and then I took the lead when he offered it. And we were on roads with which I was not familiar. Each of these things will inspire extra cautiousness in me by itself, and all three were true that afternoon. There had already been a few moments during the day when I reacted poorly to my surroundings. I didn't feel sluggish or unfocused or disengaged at all- but clearly on some level I was. And I was a little out of practise with long days in the countryside.
I entered one curve a little hot. Then I panicked and did everything WRONG from that point. The result was a hard landing on my left side- instant pain as I slid along through grass and sand, watching the bike slide along next to me. I still remember how weird it looked to be looking up and over at the seat and the top of the tank. I went down at probably 50 MPH.
The pain was intense, but within a few minutes it was apparent that nothing was broken or seriously injured. One odd thing I remember is that the first thing I did when the bike and I came to a stop was to reach over and throw the kill-switch. I wonder how many downed riders do that before even thinking about whether or not they should move or try to asses their injuries. I was wearing all my gear and it did its job. I have some scratches on my back and a few sore joints but otherwise I am okay and the soreness is healing fast.
The bike was not damaged as badly as it could have been. A mirror and turn signal broke off, the fairing and windscreen are severely scuffed but the fairing is not structurally damaged beyond bent mounting brackets, the tank took a small dent and paint-chipping in a not-so-obvious place, an engine bar got slightly bent, and the rear subframe is out of alignment (have yet to determine if it is bent or merely shifted in its mounts). I rode the bike about 150 miles home after the accident.
I never thought of myself as a bad rider- although I sure felt like it as I lay there in pain! Even when I was an extrememly new rider I thought I did a pretty good job of being the safest I could be at that level of experience and I have always put safety first. But I made mistakes on Saturday, and every one of us is equally capable of doing so as well. I can't say I learned anything new from this, but I did get a good reinforcing of things I already knew.
PLEASE my friends, be careful out there! Break those chains. Be aware of your mistakes. Back off when you need to. Keep pride and complacency out of the decision-making process. Don't push your skills too far. Don't worry about what other riders think of you if you don't like how they ride their ride. Stay focused. Live to enjoy riding another day.

The picture doesn't really do the damage justice:

[knary]

Veg,
I'm glad you're ok. I hope the bike heals as smoothly as you and may you never ever learn lessons the hard way (the way I do).

[MarkF]

Great discussion here. BUT, I disagree strongly with accepting that you've either been down or you're going . . .

That said, knock on wood, in over 700,000 sMiles I've not had an accident. Tipped over at low to no speed, yes. Hit from behind and stayed up, yes. And I'm not planning on an accident.

Voni
sMiling



I'm with ya! But I won't tempt fate with my statistics...

[knary]

Though there were some miles here and there for some years previous (including a serious accident 10 years ago), I've only been riding actively for the past 7 years or so and 100k+ miles.

9/98 = went down on mountain road after some bad choices (speed, sand, etc). Bad bruises, battered bike. ATGATT is a good thing.
3/03 = low speed oopsie on wet railroad track. no pain, but bike was nearly totalled.
4/03 = hit deer on 4th day of owning the new bike. Broken finger, a few pulled muscles.


Is crashing inevitable? I'm not the one to ask. It does seem likely for most, whether it be a minor incident or a big one. As to those that have avoided it, almost all are very good riders. Beyond that, their riding styles vary - some are cautious plodders, others hardcore canyon carvers. The common thread is that they pay attention to the task at hand and know their bikes and themselves. I honestly see a dose of luck as part of what has kept some riders upright and what has put some in the wrong place at the wrong time. We gamble when we get out of bed. We gamble when we eat a meal. We gamble when we get on a bike. The challenge is to stack the odds in our favor.

If you really want to avoid falling down, keep your skills up. If your bike sits unused for a month or so or longer, you will be rusty. Expect it and meet the problem head on. At the least, get out an practice. Better yet, take a refresher course. Even better, move to where you can ride year 'round. :D

p.s. stay off of small 110cc kid sized dirt bikes. DAMHIK :rofl

[BradfordBenn]

Glad you are relatively okay.

[RTRandy]

VEG,

So sorry to hear you had a spill and hope your bruises heal quickly. Glad you're ok. That's scary stuff. Let me know if I can be of help perhaps giving you a ride back from the repair shop.

I play incidents of close calls over and over again in my head and think about what led up to the problem. I'm sure you might do the same and that you will one day ride that same turn again perfectly when you and your bike are up and running.

I'm curious as to what road you were on where it happened.

Route 51 south of Paluxy is a tough road that came to my mind.

[Voni]

Veg did exactly that. Analyzing, and then sharing.

One of the keys of continuing safe riding is to continue to learn. As a teacher I know that if my learning curve isn't increasing, it is decreasing. So its important to continue to read, talk and practice safe thinking and riding skills. Attitude is so important.

As is luck. But attitude is something I can do more about.

Voni
sMiling

[DLilah]

Veg, glad you're okay. Hope your bruises, and your bike, heal soon!

[LRider]

Veg, hope you heal up real fast. All the best on the road!!

[The_Veg]

I'm healing very fast. Got the major replacement parts bought or ordered today. Found that the rear subframe is bent so I'm about to start making inquiries to knowledgable locals on straightening it. Still not sure about the timetable on which I'll deal with the fairing damage.

[CJM]

I heard a saying years ago - "Ride scared, you live longer." Honestly, I can't disagree more. I refuse to ride scared. If things are bad enough to scare me, then maybe it's time to park it - permanently. Not saying having a pucker-inducing event is just cause, but enough to wake yourself up.

I was only trying to emphasize a point..that being cars and truck are your worst enemies. While I don't ride terrified, I do pay close attention to the enemy.

Another reply said something about going with your "gut" or instinct and this being wrong. I agree with that if you are in an airplane when you have 20,000 feet between you and death, and not in a combat situation, but I ALWAYS rely on my instincts. It saved me from a long and very uncomfortable life ending experience once. I have found that if you have to think abouut your next move on a bike...too late...your dead. Pre-despose yourself to do certain things in given situations and you will live longer.

MTBATP