Help - Valve Cover Bolt Cross-Threaded

[BobFV1]

Hi Guys -

This is posted on the RT Board as well, so sorry if you read both. Today I intalled a moto-techniques oil filler cap on my 04 RT. I had to remove the valve cover to do the job. When I put it back on the bottom two bolts went in fine and I torqued them to 8NM. The top left (facing the left side of the bike) also went in fine. Top right went in snug and then just spun - seems to be cross threaded. I just got it back from 6K service yesterday and suspect they may have cross threaded it - I know I didn't (but that will be a big debate.

Anyway - 3 out of 4 are properly torqued and the top right is snug but not torqued properly. I am supposed to leave on a six hour road trip in the AM, and the dealers are closed tomorrow. My plan is to take it out for a test ride now - see if it leaks, and if it seems to be okay I will take it tomorrow. Since the offending bolt is on top and it is reasonably snug I am going to hope it doesn't leak. Any opinions/experiences that might help? Thanks.

[YB in IN]

I'd do exactly what you are going to do with taking it out to see if it leaks. If it does how much does it leak, and is it little enough to not care about? Think about the kinds of puddles that Brit bikes leave in their wake. My guess is that If you've gotten 3 of the 4 bolts to torque you'll probably be okay. Not great, but okay. Good luck, hope you don't have to cancel your trip.

[BobFV1]

Thanks Garth - I just took it out and it seems to be fine. The offending bolt is on top so I am hoping there won't be much of a problem tomorrow. I can always get it to the dealer up in Vegas to look at.

Bob

[BradfordBenn]

You may want to put some fresh newspaper under it to catch any leaks over night. It is two fold, 1) keeps the garage floor clean, 2) you will know how much if at all it leaked.

[BobFV1]

Well - made it 300 miles to Las Vegas today and nothing seems to be leaking, bike is running great. I'll still go by the dealer when I get home.

[dlearl476]

Bob, sorry to hear of your dilema, happy for your safe return. I had much the same thing happen to me the first time I did my Triumph valves. All but one of the bolts went fine, the last one stripped. Hopefully, you can get the dealer to pony up, but I'm not getting a good vibe about that. Especially since you've done work yourself. (It all depends on your dealer, and your relationship with him)
From your post you sound resonably compenent mechanically. Rather than have the dealer do the repair, you might want to "Time-sert" (http://www.wurthusa.com/project/en/leftnavi/catalog/product.php?path=07.0461.jpg) it yourself. I say this because this work involves metal shavings and engines. Personally, I wouldn't trust a shop that a) stripped the thing in the first place and b) didn't mention a word about it to you prior to a trip, to take the proper care required to do the job and do it right. It's really a no brainer, you drill the hole out, insert the tap, insert the timsert. The kit is ~$50 and you'll have some next time you need them. On the advice of a race mechanic I know, the NEXT time I do my Triumph valves, I'm going to go ahead and do ALL the VC bolt holes. That way you end up with STEEL threads in your head. (He told me one of the first things he does to race prep a stock motor is to timsert every bolt hole in the engine)

[BobFV1]

David - thanks for the great info - that's definitely an option I will consider. Ironic, but I was basically doing the same thing to the oil filler cap, replacing the cheap plastic threads and cap provided by the factory with a well-machined stainless steel sleeve and replacement cap, when this happenned. Anyway - the bike ran great on the way up here so I am hopeful that anti-seize and aluminum filings haven't destroyed my engine - we shall see.

Bob

[r1dinman]

Stripped threads are a common problem. I stripped one and took the bike to my dealer for a steel insert installation. After the mechanic did the work, he installed the cover and stripped another one. He was using a torque wrench. Fine, small diameter threads in aluminum aren't a very good design.


Jay
R1100GS

[nrpetersen]

You have to be careful with metric fasteners tapped into soft materials like aluminum. The metric series don't have a coarse and fine thread series like the inch fasteners do.

The old unwritten US engineering rule was fine threads only for hardened materials and possibly thru bolts & nuts if necessary, and coarse threads for everything else. Fine threads are too easy to cross thread.

I know this could ignite a firestorm but that why I like the inch system over the metric. One curmudgeon called them "communist metric queer".....

[dano]

I too, installed a Moto-Techniques oil filler cap on my 2003 RT.

Installation was easy and straightforward. In regards to the valve cover screws, the screws on my valve covers have "stops" built right into them. Thus, no way of over-tightening them. And.....I always just hand-tighten only. NO TORQUE WRENCH!!

I don't know what it is with owners of motorcycles being so anal about torque values and their wrenches. If a screw, nut or bolt, is not a stressed fastener, don't torque it. Hand tighten only.

I've heard of guys asking for the torque value for an oil filter, body panel screws, and believe it or not......turn-signal lenses. :dunno

[CJM]

You have to be careful with metric fasteners tapped into soft materials like aluminum. The metric series don't have a coarse and fine thread series like the inch fasteners do.

The old unwritten US engineering rule was fine threads only for hardened materials and possibly thru bolts & nuts if necessary, and coarse threads for everything else. Fine threads are too easy to cross thread.

I know this could ignite a firestorm but that why I like the inch system over the metric. One curmudgeon called them "communist metric queer".....

Not only that but they also have three different pitches on the thread!

And have you ever heard of Whitworth tools?

MTBATP

[BobFV1]

Took it to the dealer here in Vegas today BMW of Las Vegas and Randy in service took a look at it - confirmed it is stripped but suggested I could make it home since it's not leaking. BMW of Las Vegas is a very nice dealership and they treated me right, so I bought a tee shirt (much cheaper than the Ralleye jacket, which is what I really wanted).

I honestly don't see how I could have stripped this - I put it in and carefully tightened it down - it didn't even "take" the 8nm of torque I tried to apply, it just spun.

I don't understand BMW - when you take the valve cover off and look at the beautiful machining on the billet - no tool marks or anything, it almost makes you want to go to Berlin, stand outside the plant, and say "I'm not worthy". But then you look at the cheesy plastic oil filler cap assembly and the cam covers - what a place to scrimp! I don't get it - same thing with the threads in the soft aluminum - it's intuitively obvious that these are going to be trouble.

Oh well - I love the bike and the marque despite these little foibles.

[nrpetersen]

As much as I hate dealing with Whitworth fasteners, I have to admire them because the thread form had a radius in the root making for better fatigue properties.

[dlearl476]

But then you look at the cheesy plastic oil filler cap assembly and the cam covers - what a place to scrimp! I don't get it - same thing with the threads in the soft aluminum - it's intuitively obvious that these are going to be trouble.


I have a feeling the response would be "dumkopf ham-fisted americans!" The problem with the plastic oil cap is the company is now run by the marketin and accounting depts. instead of the engineering dept that ran the company that built the true "legendary motorcycles of Germany".
I've owned and worked on Volkswagens, Porsches, BMW cars and bikes all my life and IMHO metric fasteners, are vastly superior to any SAE hardware, which basically has two thread pitchs. The thread pitch on metric fasteners is based on their size and hardness which to me, makes a lot more sense. And I've never had any problems what-so-ever with steel fasteners in aluminum that were PROPERLY cared for. I also have a full set of "Time-Serts"! :dunno

>Took it to the dealer here in Vegas today BMW of Las Vegas and Randy in service took a look at it - confirmed it is stripped but suggested I could make it home since it's not leaking. BMW of Las Vegas is a very nice dealership and they treated me right, so I bought a tee shirt (much cheaper than the Ralleye jacket, which is what I really wanted).

Bob, your sig says Tempe, are you here in Vegas? If so you need to meet the European Motorcycle Owners of LV. We meet Sundays at Henry's American Grill (http://www.restaurantrow.com/MoreInfo.cfm?Code=855312) at 8:00 am for breakfast.
My story from the Las Vegas Dealer (owned by the same corp that I bought my F650, btw): I went to the Grand Opening and bought $250 worth of new-fangled BMW undies. My joking suggestion that it should qualify me for a FREE BMW-LV T shirt was met with nothing but nervous laughter. I deal with Irv Seaver in LA.

[CJM]

As much as I hate dealing with Whitworth fasteners, I have to admire them because the thread form had a radius in the root making for better fatigue properties.

My 75 Norton was Whitworth and just trying to remember the insane system of wrench sizes was enough to drive you, well......................insane! Other than that they were good-to-go.


MTBATP

[BobFV1]

"Bob, your sig says Tempe, are you here in Vegas? If so you need to meet the European Motorcycle Owners of LV. We meet Sundays at Henry's American Grill at 8:00 am for breakfast.
My story from the Las Vegas Dealer (owned by the same corp that I bought my F650, btw): I went to the Grand Opening and bought $250 worth of new-fangled BMW undies. My joking suggestion that it should qualify me for a FREE BMW-LV T shirt was met with nothing but nervous laughter. I deal with Irv Seaver in LA."

Dlearl - I am riding home tomorrow (Thu) but will plan my next visit to be over a Sunday so I can hook up with you all. I go to LA frequently but my family home there is close to West Valley Motorcycles. They are an acquired taste, and I will check out Irv on my next visit.

By the way, my last car was a 2003 Mercedes-Benz E320 which I bought new, and traded in for my present ride, a 2004 VW V-8 Touareg. Both German cars have seriously flawed electrical systems. My Touareg is currently at the dealer because the solenoid controlling the door lock on the passenger door has locked my wife out of the car! I am considering trading it in for a new BMW 745 - but I have heard nightmares about the I-Drive system. To be honest, I am about ready to trade the RT in for an FZ-1 and the Touareg in for a Chevy Pick-up that I can use to haul my Ducati to the track once a month! I thought we won WWII - looks like they are getting even. Harumph!

[BradfordBenn]

I am considering trading it in for a new BMW 745 - but I have heard nightmares about the I-Drive system.

The new I-Drive is much improved after the first year. The design team basically said "Well that sucked, shall we go back to the drawing board?"

[CJM]

The new I-Drive is much improved after the first year. The design team basically said "Well that sucked, shall we go back to the drawing board?"

I still have not figured out why they put a joy stick with menu to control most everything in the car(BDOTBS?). My wifes Honda has manual heat/ac controls that are so easy/logical as to be genius. The best heat/ac car I ever owned was a 1982 240-D Mercedes with manual everything but the passenger could have 110 degrees of heat and the driver could have 40 degrees of air at the same time. Plus it got 25/33!

But then again I'm stuck in the 1960's.

MTBATP