another riding technique question

[ultracyclist]

You are riding through South Central WI which has huge hills and sharp turns.

At the crest of one hill you see a yellow road sign that indicates a "squiggly" road up ahead, and as you look to the top of the next hill about a half mile away you can barely see the road that has a sharp turn to the left at the very top of the hill.

The speed limit on this road is 45mph. I am taking it easy.

You ride dowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. AS you do so the road up on top of the next hill disappears. You know "about" where things are. This is indeed the "hidden road". Yikes.

Then you ride upppppppppppppppppppppp.

As your sight line sees the up coming curve, you also notice that there is some loose gravel on your intended line which was probably tossed there by cars riding on the shoulder.

What is your technique? What would you do?

[From MARS]

I would straighten the bike, bleed off as much speed as possible, pick the least littered line, and thank my lucky stars I wasn't going any faster.

Tom

[pffog]

90% of corners with gravel in them, have a fairly clean line that exists, approx 8-12" wide that generally starts 3-4 " from the inside pavement edge (fog line area. The 100% that do not is because the last car that went around threw the gravel. It gets cleaned off by people that do not drop a tire off the edge.

My lines in twisty stuff ALWAYS put me in that clean(er) zone, especially if blind, and there was evidence of gravel on previous corners.

Too many riders are afraid of the fog line, it can be your bet friend in the twisties, be it inside or outside. Around limited sight line corners I always favor the pavement AWAY from the center line and oncoming traffic.

[32232]

Seriously, I zoom in the resolution on my GPS to the tightest possible picture and use it as an indicator of what the upcoming blind turns are.

It's better than having the co-driver in a rally car reading the description of the turns in your ear. That way the chances of entering a bend too fast to react are greatly reduced. The second part on a unknown road is riding at a pace where hazards like gravel can be handled safely.

There is only one decent, twisty road in these parts and gravel in the turns is always a consideration. Although I know it well, if I haven't been on it for some time I will first ride a tame "scouting" pass before I turn around and ride it at an enjoyable pace.

[pffog]

Seriously, I zoom in the resolution on my GPS to the tightest possible picture and use it as an indicator of what the upcoming blind turns are. .........................


WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.

Even at track days where I have taken the same corner hundreds of times, I would never glance at the speedo or tach to set my speed. In fact some track day organizers make you put tape over your speedo, so your not tempted to look.

I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.

[40427]

Most roads present some hazards, always look up where you want to go. Look through the curve/corner.
The speed is not all that important, since any sane person would only ride on public roads well within their capabilities.

I see people all the time riding and looking at their bloody GPS. They often time miss the corner completely or run off the edge of the road, worse case is going over the center line into on coming traffic.

If you need to look at your GPS , STOP !!!

[mneblett]

WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.

Even at track days where I have taken the same corner hundreds of times, I would never glance at the speedo or tach to set my speed. In fact some track day organizers make you put tape over your speedo, so your not tempted to look.

I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.
If you're not going track-day speeds, it can be very useful -- like the time I had no choice but to ride through dense fog, at night, crossing a mountainous W.VA ridge coming home from the Charleston MOA Rally.

Having the GPS to snap glances at while maintaining a reasonable pace (i.e., not high speed, but fast enough to not get run over by idiots approaching from the rear) was a true God-send -- the brand-new Navigator GPS, which I had conducted multiple hand-wringings over debating whether to spend that much money, paid for itself in full that night.

Point is, it doesn't take massive eyes-off-road-concentration to be able to snatch quick snapshots of the upcoming road in the straights between corners.

[pffog]

[QUOTE=mneblett;718355.............-- like the time I had no choice but to ride through dense fog, at night, crossing a mountainous W.VA ridge coming home from the Charleston MOA Rally. .......................[/QUOTE]



Pilots call that "get-home-itis", and it is usually applied to dead pilots! I can see where your coming from, but when I have ridden into fog that heavy I back track and grab a place to stay, or find a safe place to pull well off the road, and wait it out. Drivers coming the other way can offer reports, as well as the new smart phones. If you can't see, than neither can anyone else.

There was an accident in Utah, where 2 riders got seriously hurt when they found themselves in a sudden sand storm, not much they could do but to make sure they were as far right as they could get, but the truck coming the other way, that hit them both, was all the way across both lanes. Living where white out snow storms exist, I can tell you all you can do is hope, when you can't see but at least you have a cage around you.

On the bike, I think I would just park it as far off the road as possible, then walk as far as possible from the road and wait. Just NOT worth it to me.

[mneblett]

Pilots call that "get-home-itis", and it is usually applied to dead pilots! I can see where your coming from, but when I have ridden into fog that heavy I back track and grab a place to stay, or find a safe place to pull well off the road, and wait it out. Drivers coming the other way can offer reports, as well as the new smart phones. If you can't see, than neither can anyone else.

(snippage of pointless hurt riders story -- they could just as well been "safely" in a hotel room when the same truck driver came thought the wall; one could also argue they would be ok if they used their GPSs and kept on riding so they weren't in that wrong place at the wrong time)

On the bike, I think I would just park it as far off the road as possible, then walk as far as possible from the road and wait. Just NOT worth it to me.
If that was an option where/when I was, I would have taken it -- this wasn't just a matter of "I wanna get home"-itis (sort of insulting to suggest it was -- I ain't made it this far with everything intact without having some sense of judgment and discretion).

In any event, that doesn't address the original points -- that use of a GPS for a quick "read ahead" of an unfamiliar road is not an inherently dangerous activity, and that to suggest that anyone that takes their eyes off the road for a split second is a fool is, at best, unthoughtfully condescending.

[ultracyclist]

Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

[marchyman]

Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

The fog line is the white line on the right side of the road (assuming you live where they drive on the right) that indicates the end of the road and the start of the shoulder. Anything to the right of the fog line is shoulder.

Warning: in some places the fog line also pretty much marks the invisible bicycle lane. Hugging the fog line around a blind turn in such places is not a good idea.

[mneblett]

Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

An aside -- a nit -- in your sig block, his name is spelled:

Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov (Russian: Михаи́л Тимофе́евич Кала́шников, Mihail Timofeevič Kalašnikov)

[Rpbump]

When riding twisty roads you have to scan not only the road for potential problems but be on the look-out for "critters & other hazards" on the side of the road. Do not exceed your driving capabilities, (speed is exhilarating / accidents hurt). I will attend Track Days sponsored by BMWNEF this coming year. The rider is ultimately responsible for his/her safety, learn to make good decisions.

[ANDYVH]

I expected to read someone using other methods to read turns before you get to them. I had done quite a bit of riding in central/south Missouri and learned to read the unmarked turns (quite a few down there) by "reading" the tree lines and terrain. A classic is the uphill road leading to a turn at or over the crest.

As I scan/search the 4-sec to 12-sec range ahead of me, I also read the terrain and tree lines to gauge the upcoming turns. If I see a lot of trees perpendicular to my forward sightline, or a lot of trees at a shallow angle to my forward sightline, I can use it to indicate the turn "tightness". I can do the same by reading the power/telephone poles. If the tree line is more "inline" or more parallel to my forward sightline it indicates the turn is broad.

[ultracyclist]

I will be in GB next week exhibiting at a trade show.
I would like to hear more about what you posted.
Maybe we could grab a cup of coffee?
PM me if you are interested.
If I recall, you work at Nick's BMW?
TIA

[deilenberger]

WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.
Snippage happened here..
I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.
Actually - I do the same thing, but my GPS is mounted where it is just about in my line of sight, up high where I don't have to make a large eye movement to glance at it. The trick is don't fixate on it. And you don't glance at it when you're in the turn, you glance at it when you're in the straight heading toward the turn.

Works wonderfully on the really twisty roads in West Virginia, especially when you run into the oddball 340 degree turn, or a hard 180 right followed almost immediately by a second hard 180 right (and those turns do exist in WV.. gotta love that their engineers don't own a straight-edge..)

[Greenwald]

Have used my GPS more than once to be forewarned of a sharp curve up ahead.

While I don't take my eyes off looking as far thru a curve as I can once I'm in it, I appreciate the alert that GPS gives me as to the lay of the land coming up, especially in limited visibility conditions. :thumb

[walterK75]

I would be riding so I can safely stop in the visible road space in front of me. I cannot assume anything about a road I can't see. A GPS may show the curves etc. but it cannot tell me if there is a dead deer lying in the road, a stalled vehicle, construction or gravel. I can't assume anything about the road I cannot see.

[lkchris]

If you're going 45 mph, you'll probably have time to react to most of it.

[pffog]

If you're going 45 mph, you'll probably have time to react to most of it.

45!!!, On my favorite roads and corners, 25 has me scraping pegs, while I am hanging off.

[NCStephen]

Back to the OP..

One, you knew the curve was there, good scanning ahead and you knew it was sharp. I would have been in 2nd gear dropping into 1st for it (if it was like a 30--35 mph or less (50 kph) turn. As was said, there is almost always a few clear lanes from the four wheel traffic. The danger I have run across is that if you are apexing from out to in to out you are crossing over this debris line. The choice then becomes which clear lane to take. It is a judgement as if you take the inner one on the outside lane you may be pretty close to any traffic that is swinging wide in such a tight turn. Esp something pulling something else that is working to keep the trailer on the pavement. If you pick the outside line of the outside, you have to be confident of that line as you have little room to run wider. It varies a little more if you are on the inside lane of a really tight turn. Running in the outer lane runs a very high risk of having a vehicle or the trailer of a vehicle well into your part of the lane. That then would force you into the debris field that you fear. If you run inside, you may have to deal with more debris as it would be the less clear lane.

OK.. so those are the quick overviews..

What I think I do, easy to talk about without going out and diagnosing it as I ride.

I am in higher RPMs. on my K bike if at 7000, (redline is 9) just easing off the throttle does a tremendous slowing of the bike if needed. This is done without brakes and it also mandates the bike will become more vertical following the same line. It was a tight turn we are talking about so it will be 2nd or 1st gear for set up of the turn I tend to judge the lane by how much I can see and some little things like, is the center line very worn. Having grown up around the mountains you just kinda learn, this is a turn where most folks cut in or run wide. The signs are there. So I try to find the line of the 4 wheelers that seems the safest, clearest, and most relaxed for the speed I am picking for this bend. I then will run that line through most of the turn. If it is the inner part of my lane, I will still apex, out to in (inside the debris line for lane) then out as the turn unfolds and is usually cleaner. If it isn't, I don't accelerate and hold to that part of the lane.. If I am on the inner lane, I will drop a bit more speed and apex into the inside part of the lane, aware but comfortable with expecting some debris, then ease back across the lane as it unfolds and clears.

The other skill most likely needed is riding around where there is a lot of gravel. of being used to it, knowing how the bike will step over just a bit when it hits a few pebbles but then catches with not much more than a jar. So you ride around gravel turns as much as you can and learn you and your bike. You have to relax.

If you aren't relax then you stand a great chance of blowing it. You will be tense, you will put that sense into the bike and your throttle and your brakes and you will focus on the gravel and then for sure ride through it making you feel all that much worse. It is then you truly hope there is enough pavement to give you run off without other traffic as you aren't about making the turn, you are working to control your panic.

You have to be comfortable with riding beyond the debris. Yes it will effect the bike.............. some. You have to be relaxed and be looking beyond it. If you need to alter your line, you cannot fear it. Right gear, right speed, right line, right line of sight, right body position and relaxed all serve you well. If you have those ingredients you can most easily deal with the unexpected. Start marking off those things as not being there and you have a harder time handling a changing situation.

In situations you know, a road very familiar, good sight regarding traffic and other things, a nice slow speed corner or curve with some room around it, you might intentionally ride through debris. Might a parking lot also allow practice?

Of course debris takes different forms. Gravel as in loose stones, more pavement than stones, is not as good as clear pavement but easily doable. A corner filled with ridges of chat or sand is more serious. A leaf here or there is easy enough but piled wet leaves with no pavement showing is a much more serious situation.

Prepare yourself as best you can so you know what things are truly possible in preparing for those times. Practice in those situations as you can before hand.

This also should be said, ride the pace you can feel relaxed with. As mentioned by others, if you are riding so it is dangerous, alter things so you are safe and safe from others.

NCS