Always a full stop for stop signs?

[BCKRIDER]

Stop for sure means "no forward motion" and I lack the skill some of you have to really do that without putting a foot down. But I can slow to a crawl, ready to stop if needed, then keep moving if there is no traffic. I do it often in my closest town and often at 4-way stops in the next closest town when there is no traffic. Riding/driving in unfamliar towns, I obey the law. I also obey the "stop completely" edict when I enter a highway or street from a mall, rest stop, or whatever. In short, this is a law I only break when I am sure there is no chance of an accident.

About a year ago I violated one of those stop signs in the car. You HAD to roll past the stop sign and line to see if there was a vehicle approaching you under the overpass where I was making a left turn. Legally, I should have made the full stop at the line, then crept forward to see if it was safe to make my turn or I needed to stop again. The hidden cop let me off with a warning, which I found surprising - a mis-placed stop line means numerous violaters and revenue. (Here, I always adhere to the letter of the law, and twice more have found cops in place.)

Very close to my home there is a stop sign which virtually everybody treats as a "yield" sign, and rightly so. Good view up the road for approaching traffic on this T-junction. Only a little farther from my home is a "yield" sign with a very short view of traffic. This is another T-junction. I treat it like a small town stop sign.

Just wondered how you treat stop signs in familiar and unfamiliar territory.

[sedanman]

I do a "California Roll" in my neighborhood only. I knoe full well that I should come to a full stop at each one, I just don't. There are 9 of them in the mile from the main road to my front door.

[Rod Sheridan]

I always come to a foot down, complete stop..............Rod.

[Greenwald]

I always come to a foot down, complete stop..............Rod.

DITTO.

Here in my town S T O P stands for "Squeal Tires On Pavement!" :scratch

[maacova]

I roll through a few signs in my area if I am turning right and I can see a long way. I come to a complete stop at all other times. Not because I am fearful of the law but because I have been caught with a car coming at the last second and me starting my turn than locking brakes. Guess what happened. Down I went. I don't even look, I just stop. Both feet down. Look both ways and go.

Ken Denton

[CarlNH]

Other than the 2 stop signs in our development (rarely any traffic at all) at which I generally come to an "almost stop" before proceeding, I make a complete stop at STOP signs. Mostly, this is for self-preservation as I'm a fairly new rider and tend to err on the side of caution. Also, the local constabulary is always on the lookout for additional revenue :)

[drew3714]

There's only a few stop signs I feel comfortable not completely stopping at but even then I'm almost stopped and looking several times to make sure no one's coming. Otherwise I stop, foot down and looking for traffic. I'm too paranoid about people on their phones not paying attention and anymore everyone's on their phone.

[brewmeister]

I come to a complete stop but balance the bike ,then take off,and sometimes I do a 3 second stop/go and other times its a full what are you waiting for stop.:D :D :D

[Rob Nye]

I do a pause n go (MSF term) which includes a second at a full stop pretty much every time, except when riding with my recently licensed son, then it's full stop and foot down.

As an aside I use almost every opportunity I get to practice my slow riding skills including u-turns and "slow-racing"

What the practice does is often I can approach an intersection with a four way stop or red light and with proper timing never put a foot down; plus I'm pretty hard to beat at the field events. :)

FWIW, once I was chatting with Mike Kneebone, President of the Iron Butt Association and he said "I can pick out the good riders by what they do in the parking lot." which after a few years of observation I've come to agree with. Folks that know how to ride keep their feet on the pegs more often, especially at low speeds.

[sjbmw]

Not fully stopping at a stop sign where I live costs $187. I stop.

[rbertalotto]

Reminds me of the joke about the lawyer pulled over for not stopping at a stop sign......

The lawyer suggested that slowing way down, to a near crawl, was the same thing as stopping.......

The police officer started beating the lawyer on the head with his night stick and asked the lawyer if he wanted him to stop or just slow down............:clap

[Greenwald]

I do a pause n go (MSF term) which includes a second at a full stop pretty much every time, except when riding with my recently licensed son, then it's full stop and foot down.

As an aside I use almost every opportunity I get to practice my slow riding skills including u-turns and "slow-racing"

What the practice does is often I can approach an intersection with a four way stop or red light and with proper timing never put a foot down; plus I'm pretty hard to beat at the field events. :)

FWIW, once I was chatting with Mike Kneebone, President of the Iron Butt Association and he said "I can pick out the good riders by what they do in the parking lot." which after a few years of observation I've come to agree with. Folks that know how to ride keep their feet on the pegs more often, especially at low speeds.

Just for the record when we teach "Pause 'n Go" in MSF courses, it's for situations where one might YIELD. For stopping, we teach you to STOP! :deal

[Anyname]

I like to see a full stop. We have had several cars wrecked by knuckleheads who ran stop signs and lights. It was the thrill of a lifetime to look up and see a fast moving, 7 foot tall truck grill six feet from my window. I didn't really expect to survive that one.

[Holly]

I do a "California Roll" in my neighborhood only. I knoe full well that I should come to a full stop at each one, I just don't. There are 9 of them in the mile from the main road to my front door.

LOL, we call it a Quebec Stop. Not going to admit to doing it on occasion, but I did learn to drive in Montreal...

[bogthebasher]

LOL, we call it a Quebec Stop. Not going to admit to doing it on occasion, but I did learn to drive in Montreal...

And at a four-way stop on the corner behind my house the Leos set up almost every Sunday morning to give out 'no stop' performance awards. Motorcyclists who do not put at least one foot down on their stop receive an award - if not, the rolling stop is interpreted as no stop.

Not sure how many are challenging this in court.

[walterK75]

Full stop; foot down. The first time I simply slowed to almost stationary a school bus blasted through the intersection from behind some bushes. I was able to lock the brakes and stay vertical. Not worth the risk. Full stop; foot down.

[Greenwald]

And at a four-way stop on the corner behind my house the Leos set up almost every Sunday morning to give out 'no stop' performance awards. Motorcyclists who do not put at least one foot down on their stop receive an award - if not, the rolling stop is interpreted as no stop.

Not sure how many are challenging this in court.

NASTY!

Here in Wisconsin, 'foot contact with the pavement' is not written into the statute. The simple, complete cessation of movement is all that is required. Riders that can stop, remain balanced and then go are free to do so.

However, for me - it's a foot down. The extra hesitation of that gesture has saved my butt more than once from someone flashing thru an intersection without a care in the world.

[rockynight]

I put one foot down. Saved me from a death by soccer mom on cell phone.:hide

[Rob Nye]

NASTY!

Here in Wisconsin, 'foot contact with the pavement' is not written into the statute. The simple, complete cessation of movement is all that is required. Riders that can stop, remain balanced and then go are free to do so.

However, for me - it's a foot down. The extra hesitation of that gesture has saved my butt more than once from someone flashing thru an intersection without a care in the world.

I can come to a full stop, count to two mississippi and then go without putting a foot down.

As said above you do not need to put a foot down to satisfy the legal requirement for a stop sign.

[Rob Nye]

NASTY!

Here in Wisconsin, 'foot contact with the pavement' is not written into the statute. The simple, complete cessation of movement is all that is required. Riders that can stop, remain balanced and then go are free to do so.

However, for me - it's a foot down. The extra hesitation of that gesture has saved my butt more than once from someone flashing thru an intersection without a care in the world.

I can come to a full stop, count to two mississippi and then go without putting a foot down.

As said above in many states you do not need to put a foot down to satisfy the legal requirement for a stop sign.

[Oldhway]

I used to pride myself on a feet up stop and tell folks I could often ride to work without putting a foot down the whole way. I recently discovered that the attention spent balancing the bike DOES take away from my attention on oncoming traffic. In a foot up stop, I am anticipating (Assuming? We won't go there) being able to go with no oncoming traffic. A couple of fast moving surprises which led to awkward quick stop and balances maneuvers changed my thinking. I have always said I ride expecting the worst and that is why I am (knock wood) still alive. Now I actually do that by anticipating that there WILL be traffic and doing a full foot down stop. I may lose a couple of seconds by doing it. I could lose a whole lot more by not.

[RoboRider]

Pretty 50-50 for me. If I can see well, and nothing is there, I yield. All others are a stop. I can't do the stop and balance well enough to do that routinely, so it is foot down.

[bobs98]

After the motorcyclist rolled thru the stop in front of the oncoming automobile, he said to St. Peter, "I just didn't see him coming."

[RoboRider]

Rolling through a clearly visible intersection at 1 or 2 mph is about the least of my worries. Of all the many, many laws I don't obey, this one is pretty low on the list!

[john1691]

Feet on pegs complete stop if no other vehicles aroiund with clear liones of sight. Otherwise, full stop with at least one foot down to see who is going to try and kill me first. I have 2 stop signs close to home where there is rarely another vehicle, and I can see clearly for a 1/2 mile in both directions at both, so I feel comfortable keeping my feet up on the pegs. I, too, like to practise slow riding skills and will count to myself when stopped to see how long I can stay upright. Someday I'll probably just fall over...........:whistle

[BluegrassPicker]

Full stop; foot down. The first time I simply slowed to almost stationary a school bus blasted through the intersection from behind some bushes. I was able to lock the brakes and stay vertical. Not worth the risk. Full stop; foot down.

I always stop, but don't necessarily put my foot down. The habits you develop may save your butt when riding when you are fatiuged...

[JDOCKERY132445]

This is why I have an attorney. I ride safely and do not worry about such minor things. If i speed and get a ticket; I send the ticket to the attorney and it is "handled". Same with all citations. I have had plenty of citations; NO CONVICTIONS.

Imagine that this is the Wild West. To stay safe, you need a good hired gun. I have one and I use him to keep me safe from harm.

[Zygmund]

Foot down and watching the cagers decide if they should turn here, hang up the phone, check the lipstick application, put the blinker on for the corner beyond you, yell at the kids, and my favorite, I don't need my turn signal on, I know where I'm going and I can't stop talking to Mary now!
:scratch

[ANDYVH]

I vary it, most often, if I have scanned the stop before getting there and all is clear, then its a feet up, stop, and roll.

Other times its the usual full stop left foot to the ground, then go.

MSF Pause-Go is to develop balance skills in stop and go traffic. But for stops MSF teaches a full stop/left foot to the ground first.

[Scott C]

This is why I have an attorney. I ride safely and do not worry about such minor things. If i speed and get a ticket; I send the ticket to the attorney and it is "handled". Same with all citations. I have had plenty of citations; NO CONVICTIONS.

Imagine that this is the Wild West. To stay safe, you need a good hired gun. I have one and I use him to keep me safe from harm.

Funny Story.... One day I wrote a guy a speeding ticket for doing 38 in a 20 mph clearly marked zone.

He didnt pay the ticket by mail and decided to show up in court with his lawyer. When the judge asks how do you plead, the lawyer gets up and says "not guilty your honor". The judge says to the lawyer "are you sure you dont want court supervision"? The lawyer says no so we proceed with a little trial and the judge finds the guy "not guilty". Some judges will find someone not guilty for minor traffic offenses if they show up with a lawyer because the judge knows the lawyer cost alot of money.

I really didnt care either way but after court when I am walking out, the guy I wrote the ticket to comes up to me in the hallway with a big smile and says " officer I beat you". I said "yes you did but can I ask you a question"? He said sure so I asked him if he knew what "supervision" was and he said "no". I then asked him what the lawyer cost and he said $450.00. I then told him that supervision would have cost him $125.00 with no mark on his license but if the lawyer cost him $450.00 then who really beat who?

DUH !!!

[Greenwald]

Funny Story.... One day I wrote a guy a speeding ticket for doing 38 in a 20 mph clearly marked zone.

He didnt pay the ticket by mail and decided to show up in court with his lawyer. When the judge asks how do you plead, the lawyer gets up and says "not guilty your honor". The judge says to the lawyer "are you sure you dont want court supervision"? The lawyer says no so we proceed with a little trial and the judge finds the guy "not guilty". Some judges will find someone not guilty for minor traffic offenses if they show up with a lawyer because the judge knows the lawyer cost alot of money.

I really didnt care either way but after court when I am walking out, the guy I wrote the ticket to comes up to me in the hallway with a big smile and says " officer I beat you". I said "yes you did but can I ask you a question"? He said sure so I asked him if he knew what "supervision" was and he said "no". I then asked him what the lawyer cost and he said $450.00. I then told him that supervision would have cost him $125.00 with no mark on his license but if the lawyer cost him $450.00 then who really beat who?



DUH !!!


Ditto! If I had a dime for every "penny-wise, dollar-foolish" guy who 'lawyer'ed up,' during my career, I've have airfare to Europe and back by now. :laugh

[JDOCKERY132445]

Funny Story.... One day I wrote a guy a speeding ticket for doing 38 in a 20 mph clearly marked zone.

He didnt pay the ticket by mail and decided to show up in court with his lawyer. When the judge asks how do you plead, the lawyer gets up and says "not guilty your honor". The judge says to the lawyer "are you sure you dont want court supervision"? The lawyer says no so we proceed with a little trial and the judge finds the guy "not guilty". Some judges will find someone not guilty for minor traffic offenses if they show up with a lawyer because the judge knows the lawyer cost alot of money.

I really didnt care either way but after court when I am walking out, the guy I wrote the ticket to comes up to me in the hallway with a big smile and says " officer I beat you". I said "yes you did but can I ask you a question"? He said sure so I asked him if he knew what "supervision" was and he said "no". I then asked him what the lawyer cost and he said $450.00. I then told him that supervision would have cost him $125.00 with no mark on his license but if the lawyer cost him $450.00 then who really beat who?

DUH !!!

I think the man made the correct choice. "Supervision" is on your record as such, and can be used by the insurance company to raise your rates. Or that is the way it is here.

I do not mind paying the state for my offense; but the cost in higher insurance premiums, which continue for at least 3 years, makes a lawyer a great investment.

[dancogan]

I'm really glad this thread is getting so many responses. It has changed my riding habits, and today on the way to breakfast with my wife as pillion I made sure to come to a complete, foot down stop at every stop sign. It definitely gives the driver a much better chance to check for traffic. Thanks, y'all!

[mistercindy]

If there's nobody else at the intersection I rarely come to a complete "foot on the ground" stop at stop signs. I do slow down to the point where there is barely measurable movement, but my feet remain on the pegs. I've done that with police officers near me and nothing has ever come of it. Naturally, if somebody's already at the stop sign I come to complete stop with my foot down until they move on.




About a year ago I violated one of those stop signs in the car. You HAD to roll past the stop sign and line to see if there was a vehicle approaching you under the overpass where I was making a left turn. Legally, I should have made the full stop at the line, then crept forward to see if it was safe to make my turn or I needed to stop again. The hidden cop let me off with a warning, which I found surprising - a mis-placed stop line means numerous violaters and revenue. (Here, I always adhere to the letter of the law, and twice more have found cops in place.)
When I was in college I got a ticket at such a stop sign. I saw the police officer and remembered from driver's education to stop at the line of the stop sign, which I did, then I moved forward through the intersection. The officer gave me a ticket. He told me that I needed to stop both at the stop sign and at the edge of the street, and that failing to stop at the edge of the street was unsafe and that he'd ticket me on that basis. I actually took that one to court, and (surprise, surprise), the judge found me guilty.

[AKsuited]

Next time you are at a red light behind traffic, watch the driver's head in the car in front of you.

You'd be amazed at how few turn their heads left and right before proceeding when the light turns green.

This is a sure-fire way to identify poor drivers: they just go when the light goes green without ever checking for red-light runners.

Harry

[Greenwald]

Next time you are at a red light behind traffic, watch the driver's head in the car in front of you.

You'd be amazed at how few turn their heads left and right before proceeding when the light turns green.

This is a sure-fire way to identify poor drivers: they just go when the light goes green without ever checking for red-light runners.

Harry

Pavlov?!

[henzilla]

When in urban environments I pretty much do at least a toe down. When out in rural land ( picture Cary Grant in N by NW and the airplane scene) I do a balance stop and go. In some blind intersections, I may stop a few times to stick my nose out and left-right-left until I feel it's good to go. If I know the local LEO's are bored or sticklers and watching I do a three count foot down.
No one size fits all and it's the various LEO's interpretation of a full stop. MSF has to teach a standard, I typically put my right foot down ...have for many years. Depends on lane position and how much oil or A/C drippage is on the surface I need to put a foot on. My right index is covering my ft brake, other fingers ready to roll throttle in an escape maneuver. YRMV and that's fine with me.
.
I can stop most of my bikes almost as well as my road bicycle doing a track stand and hold it for a few seconds. Have done that in front of small town and larger cities LEO's and given a pass.

And yes, most folks act like the trafic light is a staging light on a dragstrip...Green and hammer down without any form of a head check. Have seen so many t-bones, especially in Austin,TX, red light running capital of TX ...I count to three and after the wreck ahead of me move on. Have stopped to render aid a few times when I was the only witness or the wreck was serious. Got to be a weekly thing when I was commuting...then I retired :dance

[BCKRIDER]

In my closest little town there is T - intersection with a stop line just before a crosswalk. If there are pedestrians, I of course do the legal thing. When there aren't, I advance beyond the crosswalk and then come to a full stop always. That is the only way to see if there is oncoming traffic from the left because of parked cars.

Just wondered if any of you have ever received a ticket for that particular offence? I think the ex-officers on this forum would be unlikely to ticket me, assuming I didn't see their presence and make the first stop, because I was driving/riding safely.

These are hard times financially for all levels of government. Just wondered if the level of enforcement has gone up on these "violations" that are, in fact, just a common sense way to ride?

[Greenwald]

If there's nobody else at the intersection I rarely come to a complete "foot on the ground" stop at stop signs. I do slow down to the point where there is barely measurable movement, but my feet remain on the pegs. I've done that with police officers near me and nothing has ever come of it. Naturally, if somebody's already at the stop sign I come to complete stop with my foot down until they move on.





When I was in college I got a ticket at such a stop sign. I saw the police officer and remembered from driver's education to stop at the line of the stop sign, which I did, then I moved forward through the intersection. The officer gave me a ticket. He told me that I needed to stop both at the stop sign and at the edge of the street, and that failing to stop at the edge of the street was unsafe and that he'd ticket me on that basis. I actually took that one to court, and (surprise, surprise), the judge found me guilty.

Is that the day you decided to become a lawyer?! :dance

[Greenwald]

In my closest little town there is T - intersection with a stop line just before a crosswalk. If there are pedestrians, I of course do the legal thing. When there aren't, I advance beyond the crosswalk and then come to a full stop always. That is the only way to see if there is oncoming traffic from the left because of parked cars.

Just wondered if any of you have ever received a ticket for that particular offence? I think the ex-officers on this forum would be unlikely to ticket me, assuming I didn't see their presence and make the first stop, because I was driving/riding safely.

These are hard times financially for all levels of government. Just wondered if the level of enforcement has gone up on these "violations" that are, in fact, just a common sense way to ride?

No ticket from me. Good decision making on two wheels. :thumb

[jimshaw]

I used to make many no-foot down 'pauses' at stop signs. I started to notice that some of my closest calls were in that scenario.

I think (and am not certain) that planning to just pause at a stop changes my mentality in favor of greater threat to myself. If I plan to just pause, my body, and the bike, are poised to just pause. My perception of oncoming traffic is blurred by my intention to just keep going.

If I just catch a glimpse of something moving toward me, I and the bike are not really set up to stop, and conscious efforts and everything in my riding position and the bike's position, must change. This cannot be done instantly.

The result is a powerful mind set to pause, not stop, and it has caused me some near fatal near misses.

I know that you all write much better than you ride, but I expect you aren't so different.

So, I stop, foot down, and look both ways -twice- because that driver coming at you at the speed of sound is a lot easier to notice on the second look.

[cathdeac]

I put a foot down.. and... make sure the bike "rolls" backward a bit... and look in all directions for a "problem"... especially when in front of a LEO... so far no ticket...

[bmwrider88]

in my part of the world, a *full* stop could mean a *full* 3 second count. i couldn't pull that off without a foot down.
couple years back, i thought i was in a hurry. my R100 was completely loaded for a trip i was just beginning. i rolled thru a stop sign, making a right turn. as i was looking over my left shoulder, a big (semi) truck appeared from behind a row of parked cars. i jerked the bike to a stop, and lurched about trying to keep it upright. tore my right bicep in the process. yeah, it freakin HURT. like maybe i'm gonna pass out- that level of hurt.
to this day, i have a lumpy bicep to remind me that there is no reason to be in THAT big of a hurry. so now, i stop.

[oldnslow]

From an active LEO's perspective, I only write 'rolling stop' tickets when it is obvious that the driver of the vehicle is 'in a hurry' and really trying to cheat the stop. You know they type, rolls up fast, hard on the brakes, front end is diving, then accelerated quickly from the sign. But if the driver approached the stop in a normal and prudent manner, slows to a crawl or even a walking pace, then accelerated away at normal speeds, no ticket or stop initiated, especially hold true at busy intersections where traffic flow is "hindered" by the 'complete 3 second stop' or by the hot rod rolling stop.

Thus the reason I rarely monitor stop intersections (at least visbly) during high traffic periods. Everyone forgets how to drive in the presence of a marked patrol car!

[bmwrider88]

From an active LEO's perspective, I only write 'rolling stop' tickets when it is obvious that the driver of the vehicle is 'in a hurry' and really trying to cheat the stop. You know they type, rolls up fast, hard on the brakes, front end is diving, then accelerated quickly from the sign. But if the driver approached the stop in a normal and prudent manner, slows to a crawl or even a walking pace, then accelerated away at normal speeds, no ticket or stop initiated, especially hold true at busy intersections where traffic flow is "hindered" by the 'complete 3 second stop' or by the hot rod rolling stop.

Thus the reason I rarely monitor stop intersections (at least visbly) during high traffic periods. Everyone forgets how to drive in the presence of a marked patrol car!

good for you, for cutting some folks a bit of slack. :thumb
sometimes a little slack is a good thing, if applied with a touch of reality as the baseline for your decisions....

[oldnslow]

good for you, for cutting some folks a bit of slack. :thumb
sometimes a little slack is a good thing, if applied with a touch of reality as the baseline for your decisions....

A long time ago my training officer told me, "the 'law' is what you fall back on when all other solutions to the problem won't work". :scratch

[BCKRIDER]

Glad I started this thread and, unlike most threads, it has gained some new life.

I think most of us don't want to live with anarchy on the roads - though sometimes that seems to be the case. I believe what we can do is ride/drive attentively, respectfully, and "generally" legally.

OK, I confess I still don't come to a complete stop at all stop signs. But I am prepared to unless there is absolutely no reason to do so. I sometimes exceed the speed limit when that is a safety issue of keeping up with traffic or there is no traffic and I believe my speed safe. I occasionally pass on the double yellow, but only when CERTAIN I can be back in my lane before a speeding approaching vehicle could be forced to brake.

In short, I try to look out not just for myself but all the other road users I encounter. We all want to get to where we are going and it should be a cooperative effort. When people give me a break (slow to let me merge or change lanes, pull out of a parking lot when they have the rightaway, slow to let me pass, etc.) I always give them a wave or thumbs-up. And, of course, I give other motorists the same courtesies. I see this happening quite a lot where I live and find it very encouraging.

I'm not encouraging you to ignore the traffic laws. Most of them are there for a reason. But attention and respect for other motorists sharing the road with you, do far more to keep you and them safe than unthinking obedience to the "rules of the road," in my opinion.

[DarrylRi]

While it's nice to see even LEOs take a "reasonable" approach, there will still be cases where, if you don't make a complete stop, you're going to get written. There's a fairly quiet residential intersection I go through with some regularity and have seen several of the local constabulary parked 100 feet down, watching everyone go through. I bet they don't give anyone a break on that duty.

While such a change will never happen here, it is interesting to see how this is handled in Europe. You see very few stop signs over there. Instead, they have a system of "priority right". The vehicle entering an otherwise uncontrolled intersection from the right has the right of way, no stop or yield required. In practice, the main streets are marked for priority straight through. Probably because getting and keeping a license over there is so much more difficult and expensive than here, this system seems to work very well. Combined with the extensive use of traffic circles where there is space, the flow continues even through their very tight and crowded city centers.

[sdpc2]

and for the same reason... (it may have even been Rob who suggested it), except when i can't see well enough to make sure that there is a clear path.


[QUOTE=robnye;711780]I do a pause n go (MSF term) which includes a second at a full stop pretty much every time, except when riding with my recently licensed son, then it's full stop and foot down.

As an aside I use almost every opportunity I get to practice my slow riding skills including u-turns and "slow-racing"

What the practice does is often I can approach an intersection with a four way stop or red light and with proper timing never put a foot down;

[ragtoplvr]

When I was 20 I could stop and never put a foot down, look and never miss anything.

Now I am 55, and I now stop. Put down at least one foot, and look carefully. If I am riding a distance, over 100 miles, fatigue can creep up on you. That can be fatal. So it is best to create the stop and look carefully habit. Acting different 10 miles from home defeats developing a habit.

If I am in so much of a hurry that I do not have time to do this, well there is a car and a truck in the driveway.

The bike is for enjoyment.

Rod

[beemervol]

Funny Story.... One day I wrote a guy a speeding ticket for doing 38 in a 20 mph clearly marked zone.

He didnt pay the ticket by mail and decided to show up in court with his lawyer. When the judge asks how do you plead, the lawyer gets up and says "not guilty your honor". The judge says to the lawyer "are you sure you dont want court supervision"? The lawyer says no so we proceed with a little trial and the judge finds the guy "not guilty". Some judges will find someone not guilty for minor traffic offenses if they show up with a lawyer because the judge knows the lawyer cost alot of money.

I really didnt care either way but after court when I am walking out, the guy I wrote the ticket to comes up to me in the hallway with a big smile and says " officer I beat you". I said "yes you did but can I ask you a question"? He said sure so I asked him if he knew what "supervision" was and he said "no". I then asked him what the lawyer cost and he said $450.00. I then told him that supervision would have cost him $125.00 with no mark on his license but if the lawyer cost him $450.00 then who really beat who?

DUH !!!

This is the reason people don't like or respect judges, lawyers and law enforcement officers. It's a game and all three are just trying to bring as much money into the system as they can and all are happy as long as they get some of the cut.

Between the motorcycle and truck, I drive around 55.000 miles a year and I speed when I feel it's safe to do so and I run stop signs when it's safe to do so. There are times when I follow the letter of the law because the conditions make it prudent to do so. My last speeding ticket was 1998 in South Carolina. I was given the choice to pay an extra $50.00 fine and plead guilty to a charge that didn't go on my driving record. Naturally I paid the extra $50.00.

My point is drive to your abilities. Use the laws to help keep you and your fellow drivers/passengers safe, but so many of the traffic laws are made and enforced to be just a revenue stream for government and the people who live off of it.

[From MARS]

I wouldn't come to a full stop if only: 1) I had more money than time; 2) I could tell which LEO's are reasonable and which aren't; and 3) I could see around corners before getting to them.

#1 may be true; I don't know yet. #2 You guys need signs! #3 I wish!

Tom

[Greenwald]

"Between the motorcycle and truck, I drive around 55.000 miles a year and I speed when I feel it's safe to do so and I run stop signs when it's safe to do so."


:banghead

[beemervol]

Kevin:

I will assume that anyone who drives faster than the speed limit or doesn't come to a complete, foot down stop is unsafe in your eyes. That's a lot of folks. I'm not trying to provoke you, it's what I see in my travels.

David

[Scott C]

This is the reason people don't like or respect judges, lawyers and law enforcement officers. It's a game and all three are just trying to bring as much money into the system as they can and all are happy as long as they get some of the cut.

Between the motorcycle and truck, I drive around 55.000 miles a year and I speed when I feel it's safe to do so and I run stop signs when it's safe to do so. There are times when I follow the letter of the law because the conditions make it prudent to do so. My last speeding ticket was 1998 in South Carolina. I was given the choice to pay an extra $50.00 fine and plead guilty to a charge that didn't go on my driving record. Naturally I paid the extra $50.00.

My point is drive to your abilities. Use the laws to help keep you and your fellow drivers/passengers safe, but so many of the traffic laws are made and enforced to be just a revenue stream for government and the people who live off of it.
I wrote the post you reference. So if your going to use my post to blast me then I have a few things to say in response to you.

1. "Its a game". It is certainly not "a game" to me. I have a 4 year college degree in Law Enforcement and have attended over 20 Continuing Ed. classes and training schools. Its a very serious business with tragic and deadly consequences that I have seen far too much of.

2. "Bring as much money into the system". I have never written 1 ticket or made 1 arrest to generate revenue. Its simply not the ethical thing to do. Every citation I write is more than well deserved. In fact, 30-40% of my traffic stops result in warnings, either verbal or written.

3. "Happy as long as they get some of the cut". Exactly what "cut" are you speaking of ? Please tell me because I have never received a "cut" of anything other than my paycheck (which is paid for by tax dollars) resulting from my work. I dont take free donuts, free coffee, or anything and I certainly do not get a "cut" from any citation I have ever written....NOTHING. So please, tell me about the "cut" I am supposedly getting from writing citations.

Thanks

[Greenwald]

Kevin:

I will assume that anyone who drives faster than the speed limit or doesn't come to a complete, foot down stop is unsafe in your eyes. That's a lot of folks. I'm not trying to provoke you, it's what I see in my travels.

David

Your first sentence, by your own confession, is an 'assumption.' Those can get you in trouble, and rarely summarize what the other person (that would be ME) is truly thinking.

As for your concluding sentence, you have not provoked me, sir.

It's just that I've been a front-row-seat witness to three decades of chaos and carnage on the roads - almost always not the fault of a traffic law existing, but rather the ignoring of it. :violin

[Scott C]

Your first sentence, by your own confession, is an 'assumption.' Those can get you in trouble, and rarely summarize what the other person (that would be ME) is truly thinking.

As for your concluding sentence, you have not provoked me, sir.

It's just that I've been a front-row-seat witness to three decades of chaos and carnage on the roads - almost always not the fault of a trafic law existing, but rather the ignoring of it. :violin

+1 :clap

[Scott C]

A long time ago my training officer told me, "the 'law' is what you fall back on when all other solutions to the problem won't work". :scratch

Very true !

[oldnslow]

My last word on the topic as a few posts have questioned police and their techniques.

The last officer I trained in speed enforcement wanted to 'hide' and 'catch a couple of speeders'. I suggested we sit in the open in plain view. This, I explained would be most effective because 'everybody' would slow down and we wouldn't have to write a single ticket! :gerg

[Scott C]

My last word on the topic as a few posts have questioned police and their techniques.

The last officer I trained in speed enforcement wanted to 'hide' and 'catch a couple of speeders'. I suggested we sit in the open in plain view. This, I explained would be most effective because 'everybody' would slow down and we wouldn't have to write a single ticket! :gerg


That's very smart because it accomplishes 2 objectives. It gets people to slow down and generates some good public relations as well.

Besides, we don't have to "hide" to catch speeders anyway. There are enough drivers out there who are either so oblivious to their surroundings that they dont see us sitting out their in the open or they just don't care and keep on speeding.

[rsbeemer]

Here’s one to think about. A New York City dude :dance was traveling through Texas. When he came to a stop sign he just slowed down, looked and then drove on through. Well, a Texas Highway Patrol saw him doing this two or three time and stopped him. The conversation went something like this after checking license and such: HP….Sir, you didn’t stop at the last three stop signs you went though. Dude….Oh, yes I did and looked both ways. HP…Sir, I saw you slow down and then drive on through. Dude…well, that is the same as a stop and I looked both ways. The HP was calm and said that the law is …that you have to come to a complete stop at a stop sign in Texas…..The Dude…said…Well I always slow down in New York and look both ways and its never a problem, a slow down is just the same, and continued to argue with the HP….Finally the HP asked the Dude to get out of the car. The HP calmly took out his baton and begin hitting the dude’s thighs and and legs. The dude fell on the ground, hollering and screaming his head off. The HP said calmly, “now, do you want me to slow down or stop” :laugh

[Greenwald]

Well..... you're certainly not going to convert those who chose to disregard an array of traffic laws for sake of their 'traveling efficiency' with this story.

But, ahhhhh - Texas humor!

Got me to chuckle.

Ride safe and often in this New Year! :dance

[R80RTJohnny]

Here’s one to think about. A New York City dude :dance was traveling through Texas. When he came to a stop sign he just slowed down, looked and then drove on through. Well, a Texas Highway Patrol saw him doing this two or three time and stopped him. The conversation went something like this after checking license and such: HP….Sir, you didn’t stop at the last three stop signs you went though. Dude….Oh, yes I did and looked both ways. HP…Sir, I saw you slow down and then drive on through. Dude…well, that is the same as a stop and I looked both ways. The HP was calm and said that the law is …that you have to come to a complete stop at a stop sign in Texas…..The Dude…said…Well I always slow down in New York and look both ways and its never a problem, a slow down is just the same, and continued to argue with the HP….Finally the HP asked the Dude to get out of the car. The HP calmly took out his baton and begin hitting the dude’s thighs and and legs. The dude fell on the ground, hollering and screaming his head off. The HP said calmly, “now, do you want me to slow down or stop” :laugh

Now that is FUNNY! Thanks

[BCKRIDER]

My last word on the topic as a few posts have questioned police and their techniques.

The last officer I trained in speed enforcement wanted to 'hide' and 'catch a couple of speeders'. I suggested we sit in the open in plain view. This, I explained would be most effective because 'everybody' would slow down and we wouldn't have to write a single ticket! :gerg

I bet their are SEVERAL MILLION motorists that wish you had trained the LEO's that ticketed them. Unfortately, not the case. All of us know (ex-LEO's included) that SOME speed enforcement - and other enforcement - is for revenue, not safety. I rely on my mental radar dector to protect me - which it has for over 20 years.

But the real question, in my opinion, is not religious adherance to the law but awareness to keep myself and others safe. (See my post #47 on this thread.)

Disobey the traffic laws ONLY when it is certainly safe or it would be more dangerous to obey them.

Maybe my last word?