fun, fun, fun...

[cowboyatheart]

Okay, been riding my R1200RT since summer of 2008. Was 25 years since I owned a motorcycle. So I took a refresher course, then an advanced riders course (http://advancedridertraining.ca/). Just this summer I have now become so comfortable that I like to take the twisties with speed good enough to drag a toe or two! I love it. Maybe I should slow down, but it is exciting. And is not that far over that I feel in danger.

Am I nuts, or just learning to ride?

[SteveAikens]

with speed good enough to drag a toe or two! I love it. Maybe I should slow down, but it is exciting.
Am I nuts, or just learning to ride?
You're nuts. You're not learning to ride either. If you were, you'd have the balls of your feet on the pegs so you have more ground clearance before anything touches down, you protect the toes of your boots, you protect your feet from pavement irregularities and most importantly, you'll have better control of the bike.

Email me when you scrape a touchdown peg [that little pin dealie on the bottom and end of your footpeg] and I'll tell you another secret That will be even more exciting.....:D

The real deal? You're becoming one with your bike. A good thing and unless you get over-confident, safer than before you reached this point. The more you understand your ability to control your bike - the better you'll enjoy it.

Now - off the computer and hit that next curve - and have fun....:clap

Oops - forgot to mention: This is also how you get rid of those 'chicken stripes' on the edges of your tires.

[cowboyatheart]

You're nuts. You're not learning to ride either. If you were, you'd have the balls of your feet on the pegs so you have more ground clearance before anything touches down, you protect the toes of your boots, you protect your feet from pavement irregularities and most importantly, you'll have better control of the bike.

Email me when you scrape a touchdown peg [that little pin dealie on the bottom and end of your footpeg] and I'll tell you another secret That will be even more exciting.....:D

The real deal? You're becoming one with your bike. A good thing and unless you get over-confident, safer than before you reached this point. The more you understand your ability to control your bike - the better you'll enjoy it.

Now - off the computer and hit that next curve - and have fun....:clap

Oops - forgot to mention: This is also how you get rid of those 'chicken stripes' on the edges of your tires.

Okay, to be straight up, it was my toe hitting that told me I was leaning over far enough. I don't drag my toes around a corner and I keep my feet on the pegs so they don't drag, good point you've made. I've scrapped the touchdown peg once or twice. Not that comfortable doing that, I am pretty cautious and will be careful about becoming over-confident - because that could end in a "not so great way".

Off the computer is a good idea, but not until Saturday. I have a 3 day trip planned with a friend. So from now til them, I'm just making money, and helping others do the same.

One of things we learned in advanced training, was that the bike will outperform most riders, so stay with it and keep focussed on where you want to go, not what you are trying to avoid.

Thanks for the advice.

[SteveAikens]

the bike will outperform most riders, so stay with it and keep focused on where you want to go, not what you are trying to avoid.
That's the key to getting around any turns you make. Good dela - ride safe, and often.

[BCKRIDER]

Couple of questions for the two of you - and others who are very quick through the twisties:
1. How do you determine there is not a bunch of gravel kicked up on the road, which would make your serious lean angles an inevitable lowside?
2. Can you stop within your lane at these speeds if there is an stationary object blocking the road? (Where I ride, ALL tight turns are also blind turns.)
3. Do your cornering speeds allow for the possibility of an opposing driver over the center line?

I've seriously asked these questions before and not received answers. So I ask again. Are you just rolling the dice that nothing bad will happen in those fast twisties, or do you know something I (and I bet many others) don't?

Look forward to your responses.

[SteveAikens]

Couple of questions for the two of you - and others who are very quick through the twisties:
Your questions are good questions. I have no idea why you've asked but not gotten a serious response yet, unless of course you haven't asked in the right place.

First, let's make sure we understand being 'quick through the twisties' is not synonymous with being irresponsible when it comes to safety. You evaluate the environment to determine what's safe and what's not. Once you've determined it's safe to do so, it's about picking a safe, correct and quick line from the entrance of a curve to the apex, increasing power just before that apex and following the line out of the curve. Most important is entering the curve at the correct speed [most riders try to enter the corner/curve too fast] to allow you to apply power properly through the turn to the apex where you increase that power. Remember, as you apply power, you force the rear of the bike down to increase traction. If you've entered the turn to fast, the natural tendency is to reduce power or brake [trail brake only if absolutely necessary] in the turn. The problem that creates is it reduces traction as you scrub speed. Lastly, look where you're intending to go. If you don't look through the turn to your exit point, your bike will try to follow to the point you're looking at. It's often said you need to look where you want to go, not where you're going.

So now that's out of the way:
1. How do you determine there is not a bunch of gravel kicked up on the road, which would make your serious lean angles an inevitable lowside?
You never over-ride your line of sight. As you look where you want to go, you use your peripheral vision to insure you're on a clear path.
2. Can you stop within your lane at these speeds if there is an stationary object blocking the road? (Where I ride, ALL tight turns are also blind turns.) See above. If you can't see the exit point of the turn - SLOW DOWN to the point that you don't over-ride your line of sight. This should be no different in your mind than over-riding your headlight at night. If you can't stop safely within the distance you can see PLUS at least one car length - you're going to fast for conditions.
3. Do your cornering speeds allow for the possibility of an opposing driver over the center line? No.

Keep in mind what I said earlier: 'quick through the twisties' is not synonymous with being irresponsible when it comes to safety. If you're in an area with traffic, you're not in an area that's safe to 'play boy-racer'. Doing so moves you from sensible motorcyclist enjoying the capabilities of your bike, to risk-taking squid, regardless of your choice of bike.
I've seriously asked these questions before and not received answers. So I ask again. Are you just rolling the dice that nothing bad will happen in those fast twisties, or do you know something I (and I bet many others) don't?
We probably don't know anything you don't know. It's possible that when we ride more quickly through turns, we are more aware [through experience] of our environment than a lot of others. We take more of that ever-changing environment into consideration and make adjustments to our riding style, as necessary, than less experienced riders.

Remember, there's a significant difference in picking a fast line through a turn on a race track and riding balls-out through it, and trying the same thing on public streets. Race tracks are playgrounds - public streets are not. Again, it's all about your safety on the track, yours and the public's on public streets. You make a mistake on the track, you're generally the one at risk. Make a mistake on a public streets, chances are pretty good you won't be the only one that suffers the results.

Don't mistake what I'm saying. When it's safe and the urge to feel some "G's" on that perfect curve is strong, enjoy yourself. However, never ignore the ever-changing environment you're in when riding on public streets.

Let me suggest you find and take an advanced rider course to help you in some of these areas. Regardless of your level of experience - when your safety is on the line, there's no substitute for rider education.

Hope this helps.

[Greenwald]

Couple of questions for the two of you - and others who are very quick through the twisties:
1. How do you determine there is not a bunch of gravel kicked up on the road, which would make your serious lean angles an inevitable lowside?
2. Can you stop within your lane at these speeds if there is an stationary object blocking the road? (Where I ride, ALL tight turns are also blind turns.)
3. Do your cornering speeds allow for the possibility of an opposing driver over the center line?

I've seriously asked these questions before and not received answers. So I ask again. Are you just rolling the dice that nothing bad will happen in those fast twisties, or do you know something I (and I bet many others) don't?

Look forward to your responses.

You raise some very important points that need some sort of response, and I will leave that to the previous posters whom you have challenged to justify their advice.

I would just interject the fact that when you are 'over-riding your line of sight thru a curve' (in other words, need more distance to stop than you can visualize), you have just taken the whole 'risk-benefit' equation to a new and potentially dangerous level.

Among the pro-racers where I instruct (Road America, Elkhart Lake, WI), they have a saying. "If you need to take risks to have a fun ride, you belong on the track."

Now back to our regularly scheduled debate. :bikes

[SteveAikens]

:gerg

You type slower than I do....:D

[Mika]

FWIW

These are issues any rider must calculate for. As Kevin points out the 'safest' place to ride fast is on the track. Even there you need to be aware that another rider may have gotten off track – returned and in the process brought grave grass or other debris on to the track since your last tour of the circuit and before a corner marshal can warn you.

Riding quickly is a very mental activity. What is your line of sight? What if I encounter X, how do I deal with it? The questions go on and on. The beginning sport rider needs to ride within the limits of the road, his physical skills and [most importantly in my mind] within their mental skill level. With experience and training the speed of this mental assessment increases and becomes second nature.

If you are a SQUID or Touring rider in full ATGATT you ride in danger if you are not mentally in the game and riding within your skill set.

YMMV

[pffog]

Couple of questions for the two of you - and others who are very quick through the twisties:
1. How do you determine there is not a bunch of gravel kicked up on the road, which would make your serious lean angles an inevitable lowside?
2. Can you stop within your lane at these speeds if there is an stationary object blocking the road? (Where I ride, ALL tight turns are also blind turns.)
3. Do your cornering speeds allow for the possibility of an opposing driver over the center line?

I agree with most of what Steve said but will add some additional stuff I do.

First you roll the dice every time you get out of bed in the morning, and then using a motorcycle rather than a cage you roll them some more, with bigger stakes.

BUT there are a lot of things we all do every day to mitigate risk.

1. How do you determine there is not a bunch of gravel kicked up on the road, which would make your serious lean angles an inevitable lowside?

First I always position myself on entry to get the maximum sight line through the corner, and look for tells, a worn fog line is a good indication people cut the shoulder and may throw gravel, a worn center line tells you opposing traffic frequently cuts the lane, skid marks in the corner indicate a possible decreasing radius, banged guard rails indicate traffic issues, and they are different if on the inside and outside, these are just a few of hundreds of clues that exist. On a blind LH turn, I ride again toward the fog line and apex very wide, again keep you out of the center of the lane, and gives you more cushion against opposing traffic. Most riders are VERY uncomfortable doing this, but track days and becoming "one with the bike" removes this silly fear, guardrails, rock walls, and pavement is stationary, opposing hazards are not.

Also to answer the gravel and opposing coming across the center line, I try to apex RH corners 2-12" from road edge. First if there is gravel, it is generally pushed in the middle of the lane and near the center line, by running a tight inside line you give yourself a cushion against encroachment from opposing, and it is easier to widen a line mid lean, than tighten it, for most people. I ride 90% tight twisties, and have not had a pucker moment in a few years. Most North American drivers are afraid of the road edge and fog line, It is MUCH safer than the center line in the twisties! Learn to use the entire lane.
Can I allow for someone coming my way totally in my lane NO, NO ONE CAN, if you fear that stay home.

2. Can you stop within your lane at these speeds if there is an stationary object blocking the road? (Where I ride, ALL tight turns are also blind turns.)

I am not sure what stopping has to do with going in the other lane, you should be able to hold your line when braking, granted there is not as much traction available, but going into the other lane for any reason is risky. See above comments on being able to widen a turn IF you start out tight.

For those that say they never out drive their brakes in blind corners is full of crap, WE ALL DO. Other wise some corners in places I have ridden, you would have to park the bike, get off look, then remount and crawl through the turn.

Thousands of miles on these roads, and several track days will hone your skills, but there are no guarantees in life, doesn't matter what you do.

Riding places like this you will ride more blind corners, with opposing traffic in the same lane, before morning cappuccino, than most N American drivers will see in a lifetime!

http://www.easy-clan.com/ski/europe2011/2011%20small/D&D%20small/P1050449_1080x810.jpg

[cowboyatheart]

Great discussion above. SAFETY IS FIRST AND FOREMOST. Thanks for all the great comments.

Love to get on a track. I'll have to put that on my bucket list!

[marchyman]

You never over-ride your line of sight. As you look where you want to go, you use your peripheral vision to insure you're on a clear path. See above.


Yep. But even then there are no guarantees. My last low side wasn't due to over-riding my sight lines... it was due to mis identifying what I was looking at. Ooops.


No.


Wrong answer, Steve. At least wrong as I read the question. Yes... I worry about the other guy being over the center line, encroaching into my lane.

[Greenwald]

:gerg

You type slower than I do....:D

Damn! I need to work on my keyeb....keybor.....kyboar.....

Typing. :banghead

[SteveAikens]

Yep. But even then there are no guarantees. My last low side wasn't due to over-riding my sight lines... it was due to mis identifying what I was looking at. Ooops.

Wrong answer, Steve. At least wrong as I read the question. Yes... I worry about the other guy being over the center line, encroaching into my lane.
The Question.

3. Do your cornering speeds allow for the possibility of an opposing driver over the center line?

The answer.

NO.

Keep in mind what I said earlier: 'quick through the twisties' is not synonymous with being irresponsible when it comes to safety. If you're in an area with traffic, you're not in an area that's safe to 'play boy-racer'. Doing so moves you from sensible motorcyclist enjoying the capabilities of your bike, to risk-taking squid, regardless of your choice of bike.
What that means is simply you do NOT ride hard in traffic areas - period. That's the reason the answer is no. The implication of the question was related to being quick through the twisties. My answer means you don't even attempt to be quick when there is traffic present.....:nono

At least that's how it is in my book.......:gerg

[marchyman]

What that means is simply you do NOT ride hard in traffic areas - period. That's the reason the answer is no. The implication of the question was related to being quick through the twisties. My answer means you don't even attempt to be quick when there is traffic present.....:nono

So, in other words, you ride slow enough in such situation that you do allow for the possibility that the opposing driver will be over the center line. :stick

[jaherbst]

So, in other words, you ride slow enough in such situation that you do allow for the possibility that the opposing driver will be over the center line. :stick

Thats the way I would read it. Safety first ------Testosterone Last. After 59 years of riding I have learned that you only let the Badger loose on the track. It has worked well for me and I know it will work well for everyone. If your going to ride motorcycles practice a little self control and respect for everyone else on the road. Take your aggresions and thrills out on the track where you will not kill or injure anyone but yourself.

Far too many people riding that shouldn't be. I am tired of reading about M/C accidents and stupid things people do on M/C's. Racing on streets, too fast for corners, drinking etc.etc. Irresponsible actions give the rest of the community a black eye. Be a responsible rider if not for yourself at least for the rest of us.

I now stand down off my soap box,

Jack

[ncsonderman]

I'm with pffog. There are never any guarantees that there won't be someone losing control/not paying attention and coming into our lane. Think about those twistie roads (the ones that I play on) out in the middle of nowhere. They still have the opportunity for a tractor or a truck carrying kayaks to be stopped without warning. We all know that we take risks and each have a different personal risk threshold.

I'm not advocating total carelessness, but I will hold the torch for those who DO ride too fast for the street:whistle. It's about taking into account all of the factors available. Where am I? Between two towns of 200 that are seperated by 15 miles.....next variable. What is the road surface like? How is the pavement? Have they put gravel on the shoulders recently? Is it planting season or harvest? Are there any roads that come into my current route or areas that have foreseeable traffic?

Experience is always great. Get the right gear for you and make sure it fits properly. Take the time to practice before hitting the dragon. Learn your bike. Enhance your skills with MSF courses. Take a race school or advanced road riding course on the track.

Ride safe, ride hard:thumb