ON articles on the web

[Hodag]

Ran across some ON articles on the web, go to Shiva's articles.
why is it we can't do it online?
http://www.bmwk1200s.com/ridefast.htm

[BradfordBenn]

Thanks for pointing that out. Hmmm makes me wonder. Although I do know that Shiva holds the copyrights for his articles and our older agreement did not allow BMWMOA to post them on the web. But I do agree that it is interesting.

[GregFeeler]

Ran across some ON articles on the web, go to Shiva's articles.
why is it we can't do it online?
http://www.bmwk1200s.com/ridefast.htm

Once our site is split between members and guests, we'll start using the publication rights we have been collecting for articles contrubuted to the ON. Shiva contributes his material so still owns it and can publish it as he wishes.

We have a great big list of cool things to do with our web site (in stages) once we have membership validated access. Article archives, tech article indexs, ride databases, GPS coordinates, etc. :thumb

[Hodag]

I would suggest that we don't just scan the magazine pages.

Can I have a section for "Whats Mark11Lt doing right now" for my fanclub?

[lorazepam]

Mooommmmm!!!!!!!! He's doing it again!!!!

[GregFeeler]

I would suggest that we don't just scan the magazine pages.

Can I have a section for "Whats Mark11Lt doing right now" for my fanclub?

Only if you install a web cam. :stick

[Hodag]

Mark's trouble making checklist for today:
1. Go to church smelling like beer.
2. Argue with wife about new bike.
3. make a mess in the house while wife from above is working, blame 4 year old daughter.
4. Talk to buddy on phone, insult his bike, and make rude comments about St. Patty's day.
5. Sneak some cheese popcorn, after being told I don't need to eat any.
6. write scathing letter to Cheese popcorn people about the lack of cheese on 43% of the kernels
7. Leave cheese popcorn finger prints on keyboard.
8. Stir up trouble on the net.

day ain't over yet,

[GregFeeler]

Mark's trouble making checklist for today:
1. Go to church smelling like beer.
2. Argue with wife about new bike.
3. make a mess in the house while wife from above is working, blame 4 year old daughter.
4. Talk to buddy on phone, insult his bike, and make rude comments about St. Patty's day.
5. Sneak some cheese popcorn, after being told I don't need to eat any.
6. write scathing letter to Cheese popcorn people about the lack of cheese on 43% of the kernels
7. Leave cheese popcorn finger prints on keyboard.
8. Stir up trouble on the net.

day ain't over yet,


Day may not be over, but that's a good list so far. :evil

[BradfordBenn]

Mark's trouble making checklist for today:

3. make a mess in the house while wife from above is working, blame 4 year old daughter.


Now I know why people have kids! It is to have someone to blame stuff on
:stick

So what is on the list for today? :dunno

[BradfordBenn]

Shiva contributes his material so still owns it and can publish it as he wishes.

I did the same thing with my article, I waited for it to be published (which might have been the hardest part) then I put it up on my website.

[Hodag]

been pretty slow today so far, a few lowlights....
1. harrassed a few people at work, in regards to hunting and fishing abilities.
2. attempted to convince a female ex-coworker via e-mail that she still is in love with me and not her current fiance, and that her potential marriage is doomed
3. Called my buddy to have him call and leave a message at home that he thinks his old GS is about to be bought, and I better get off the dime and grab it.
4. forgot my daughter fav. blankie at day care and also grabbed some other kids artwork/info sheets

I'm getting sick (thanks Manic) and I'm a little slow today.

[username]

Once our site is split between members and guests, we'll start using the publication rights we have been collecting for articles contrubuted to the ON. Shiva contributes his material so still owns it and can publish it as he wishes.

We have a great big list of cool things to do with our web site (in stages) once we have membership validated access. Article archives, tech article indexs, ride databases, GPS coordinates, etc. :thumb

is there a schedule for this great big list? seems like youve been telling us "real soon" for a long time.

here's a fun thing to do on a project: tell us the date of the milestone for the split, and tell us the gating items - what is in the way (specifically) of the mag showing up online? and who exactly is responsible for these items. i live in a fantasy world and in my little world i call this accountability. who is getting what done and when will they have it done?

i have this nagging fear that there are all these "mother may i?" milestones in the form of votes from the board, etc, and they are planned for 90 days time, and [insert reason, not results here] going on.

will we see something like this (http://www.bmwcca.org/Roundel/rdelfset.shtml)?

thanks! :thumb

[GregFeeler]

is there a schedule for this great big list? seems like youve been telling us "real soon" for a long time.

Well, not just me - the rest of the "web team" as well. But good point and good question. I'll try to explain what's going on - at least my part of it.


here's a fun thing to do on a project: tell us the date of the milestone for the split, and tell us the gating items - what is in the way (specifically) of the mag showing up online? and who exactly is responsible for these items. i live in a fantasy world and in my little world i call this accountability. who is getting what done and when will they have it done?

Those are great ideas - I use them every day in my day job. I'm the I.T. manager for a national company and the ONLY way I can get things done and keep my management happy is that way. However... in a volunteer organization like the 'MOA it doesn't work quite the same way. :)

In making improvements to the web site the Board has paid for third party software and professional services when we had to, but we have a tradiition of member volunteer effort on our activities. That's what we are doing right now on the web site. That's always open to review, but we do have a good team of pretty savy folks and the price is right.

i have this nagging fear that there are all these "mother may i?" milestones in the form of votes from the board, etc, and they are planned for 90 days time, and [insert reason, not results here] going on.

Although the Board has to approve certain things - that's their job - the outline for the web site upgrades have been approved in general for over a year. It's really and only a matter of working through the technical details.

Remember, last year's International Rally was the first time we were able to have folks register securely on-line, or maintaine their memberships, or buy Country Store goods. The software implemented to make that all possible took much longer than hoped to get running right. And, just about the time we got it running ok last fall, there was a major upgrade. That held back work from the Web Tech Team on developing a "unified" login between the secure area and the forum and new member's only areas we have planned. I'm involved with content, so it's the Tech Team folks who can answer for where that project is right now, but I know there is work being done.

will we see something like this (http://www.bmwcca.org/Roundel/rdelfset.shtml)?

thanks! :thumb

The best answer I can give for now is "over the next year". That is supposed to leave us some wiggle room for problems or delays, and also implies phased in enhancements. The plan is to use the web site for what web sites are good for and the print for what print is good for. Each will compliment the other in ways that make them both stonger. The point is to have reasons for the members to look at both media and to make them both better through a process of "extending" one into the other. Considering that the 'MOA has waited over 32 years to get to this point, a year of media coordination is pretty fast, and it lets us "measure twice and cut once" as we implement new features. Hope that answers your questions. :dunno

[Visian]

The plan is to use the web site for what web sites are good for and the print for what print is good for.

Whose opinion are we using to determine what's good? What if some members wants all the information they pay for to be delivered on-line? What if other members don't care if something has been seen on our web site?

Each will compliment the other in ways that make them both stonger. The point is to have reasons for the members to look at both media and to make them both better through a process of "extending" one into the other.

This is part of the equation. There was a meeting held nearly three years ago to effect this synergy.

The other part of the question involves the process by which the information that comes into the BMW MOA gets turned into value-added (relevant) content. We've heard the concept of "news" and "resources"... but channeling all news through a single filter not only limits the perspective on the news, it reduces the news' community value by limiting the number of perspectives that can be shared.

Could I please request another experiment in content creation?

When the press kit for the R1200GS HP becomes available, could we please post it to our web site with no editing... raw PR: pictures and prose... and then let members discuss their opinions about the bike's implications here on the forum? Then randomly select a person to edit those discussions into an article for the BMW ON?

This is an excellent example of "extending" one medium into another, and I think that an article full of individual members opinions would be a lot more interesting to read than an edited press release.

If the information shows up on the forum when it becomes available from BMW, and isn't embargoed until it appears in the magazine, then the people here on the forum could easily meet any print deadlines.

This might be a good way to bridge the gap until we get to whenever we're going to be "next year." :)

Ian

[MCohen]

If the information shows up on the forum when it becomes available from BMW, and isn't embargoed until it appears in the magazine, then the people here on the forum could easily meet any print deadlines.
I'm sorry but that is incredibly naive. Information about new models is considered a priority and placed into the magazine as soon as it arrives (usually past deadline).

A concise edited article about people's reaction to a new model would be interesting, though (and a supplement to the "Rider to Rider" letters). Why don't you take the helm and make it happen with the R1200GS-HP? The press kit and photos will be available on the internet from a number of sources as soon as they are available and there is already a lively debate about each new model on this forum.

I'm sure the web team plans to have text and photos on new models here in a members only section but as you suggest, why wait? You certainly could do it now.

Michael Cohen
Art Director, BMW ON

[Hodag]

Here is a naive question,
Is there an anti-forum/website agenda from the ON powers (from what I've heard the real power brokers in MOA) ??
Michael's comments just reflect that view to me?
Are they afraid of being subjugated, passed by?? why isn't the website receive equal billing? press kit released here?
As I've said before,
Most recently to Mr. Gore, nice invention but it won't last. Me and Gutenburg agree the printed word is the only thing that will last.
mark

[MCohen]

Here is a naive question,
Is there an anti-forum/website agenda from the ON powers (from what I've heard the real power brokers in MOA) ??
Michael's comments just reflect that view to me?
I have no idea in what I said gave you the impression of an anti-website view. I would love to see the website utilized more. I guess I haven't been using my "ON powers" correctly.

I bet I would like to see the same things online as you. Hopefully the website will be set up for it soon.

Michael Cohen
Art Director, BMW ON

[Visian]

Naive is evian spelled backward. :)

If I wanted to speculate on Internet rumors, I'd write for the RA. ;) <= that's a wink, RA bretheren....

Please send the web team the press kit when it comes, and *all* the pictures and information that comes and stand back!

And of course, I'll volunteer for a chance on the test ride list. Wonder where it's going to be? Tierra del Fuego, I hope! :wave

Ian

[Visian]

press kit released here?


Mark -- there's the "press kit" and then there's the real information, the exclusive photo, the publicity opportunity (ie: new model intro's, access to executives, etc.).

Ian

[username]

personally, i dont *just* want the BMW-spewed press-kit crap spoon-fed to me in paper format. that is nice and all, but the source is tainted. i want to see real riders' impressions of these new bikes and products, and i want to see them ASAP. i think that'd be good use of the web, and it is certainly how these forums are used. i think we could be taking greater advantage of the knowledge of our membership by having folks that represent different genres/makes of bikes weigh in on a new model, and just put it on the web.

i dont see why we cant have feature writers for the website - people that are tasked with putting together stories and articles. we do it for the magazine, but it takes FOREVER to see anything. kbasa kind of did this when the new r1200gs came out, and then we he got his own bike, he took it apart, critiqued it, and posted lots of photos. nothing even close has been presented in the mag, or anywhere else that i've seen, and what he did is an example of the power of the web and motivated people. more information, sooner.

the magazine is great and all, but as i think ive said before, it's an un-indexed, unsearchable, non-archived source of information that arrives around 60 days after whatever content it has could be considered "news." if im thinking about buying a new ST, would i be smarter to post in here for advice, or write a letter to the editor of ON, and then wait 30-60 days for it to appear, then wait 30-60 days for my fellow bmw enthusiasts to reply? posting it here is obviously way smarter.

this is heresy, but i say turn the web team loose, and see of the magazine can keep up. our current model is to slow the web-based stuff down to the pace of the magazine. that's not an accurate reflection of how the world is moving, and where this club needs to be to be a part of the future, as opposed to a relic of the past.

as if to prove my point, i posted this note, then hit "new posts" and saw rob nye's thread. (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5619) here he and chace go ride two new models, take a bunch of good pictures, and share their feedback for the models. let's pretend this was 1990. in about 3 months, you'd see this information in the magazine. that's 90 days that MOA members would be going without this sort of feedback to help them make a purchasing decision! 1/4 of the year, and for some of you northerners, most of your riding/sales season! (rob, great report.)

[MarkF]

this is heresy, but i say turn the web team loose, and see of the magazine can keep up. our current model is to slow the web-based stuff down to the pace of the magazine. that's not an accurate reflection of how the world is moving, and where this club needs to be to be a part of the future, as opposed to a relic of the past.


What he said! :clap

[lorazepam]

Hey guys, just think, when we get 38000 members online, we will have the pull and the ability to get things done really fast.
I figure since the forum is viewed by everyone who browses BMW motorcycles, membership should increase due to its existance at a very rapid rate.
Since it is only members that get to see the magazine, it doesnt really help in recruiting new members. One day the powers that be will realize that and we can have meaningful content here.
I hope the ON and the forum will be able to work together to provide the best information to the members and we can have upgraded technical sections here, as well as up to date product reviews for the membership to utilize when considering a purchase.

[Visian]

Since it is only members that get to see the magazine, it doesnt really help in recruiting new members.

Not 100% true, Loraz. The magazine gets passed along pretty well, and non-members see it and are impressed. As an ambassador, I get three copies a month in addition to my member copy... and I give those to people at local club meetings... and leave a copy or two sitting around at TWO and the Blue Ridge Motorcycle Campground.

That said... it isn't the magazine that sells the BMW MOA... or our web site. It's the information *in* the magazine that's of value. And the community of riders, as manifested in rallies and this forum.

Certainly, there are plans to synergize our media at some point in time in the future. That was the vision when the Board was presented the proposal that got this all started two and a half years ago.

Two points:

1) the BMW MOA is not a magazine subscription
2) give the web site equal access to the information the BMW MOA receives and watch this sucker drive the value of the community experience.

THAT is what will make our membership ranks increase at a rapid rate.

Ian

[Hodag]

can we get a firm schedule for these implementations???
"soon", is kinda vague, and allows for interpretation.

[GregFeeler]

Here is a naive question,
Is there an anti-forum/website agenda from the ON powers (from what I've heard the real power brokers in MOA) ??
Michael's comments just reflect that view to me?
Are they afraid of being subjugated, passed by?? why isn't the website receive equal billing? press kit released here?
As I've said before,
Most recently to Mr. Gore, nice invention but it won't last. Me and Gutenburg agree the printed word is the only thing that will last.
mark

Mark, I'd like to address your questions:

1) There is no anti-web agenda in the management of the 'MOA - period. Quite the contrary. Read the minutes. Over the last three years I've been on the Board, the web and the integration of the two media have been the single biggest projects from both time and money. I can say that everyone on the current Board is fully in support of all our efforts to expand the web site, and I know many of the candiates running are as well, first of all me, but also Dave and Brad, whom you all here know.

2) The only "power brokers" in the 'MOA is the Board of Directors. All employees and contractors report to Ray Zimmerman, and Ray reports to the Board. If there's a "problem" we fix it. The "old days" of secret clicks - if that were ever true - are long gone. You don't think so, come to the next Board meeting. It will be in St. Louis, May 7th.

3) Unfortunatly, not every idea for web use is a good one. Not every bright light in the night sky is a UFO, or proof of the, and not every canded comment (read: negative) on a specific web suggestions is proof of an anti-web conspiricy.

There seems to be the idea here on the forum that just because everything anyone can think of doing with or adding to our web site hasn't already been done that is proof of a conspiricy. Just ain't so, folks, and I think it's a little short sighted to attack the people who have put in so much of their free time to help us get where we are, especially with unsupported allegations. You'll note that no one among the web team volunteers is making those accusations. Wouldn't it make sense that if they felt there were an anit-web plot we'd be hearing from them?

We're all wanting the same thing and are equally frustrated that more hasn't been done yet, but it will happen. It's the single most important thing for the future of this organization, and I think everyone knows and supports that.

Thanks for your time.

[username]

One day the powers that be will realize that and we can have meaningful content here.

i've been giving folks the benefit of the doubt. this was my mindset for the past when i've been hearing about changes coming "real soon." see my post here (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=55700#post55700) where i asked greg feeler for some specific milestones, dependencies, and a list of who is specifically accountable, and his reply (directly below it) says a bunch of nice things, but fails to answer the question, except to say "within the year." well jeez, that was the answer last year. this is pretty typical of things thus far. there is an accepted notion today that because MOA is a volunteer organization, that it is unreasonable to establish accountability for project status and completion. i think this is baloney. i agree that there may be project slippage because someone would rather go riding than do work for the club, but i think the milestone and accountability should exist and that slippage should be shown. and if a particular volunteer shows lots and lots of slip, and not a lot of progress, i think that an honest discussion can be held, and work can be done to partition the task to more than one volunteer, or a new volunteer can be recruited for the task.

hence my feeling is that the "powers that be" will not wake up to this if they havent already, and i am a big fan of them becoming the "powers that were."

[GregFeeler]

i've been giving folks the benefit of the doubt. this was my mindset for the past when i've been hearing about changes coming "real soon." see my post here (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?p=55700#post55700) where i asked greg feeler for some specific milestones, dependencies, and a list of who is specifically accountable, and his reply (directly below it) says a bunch of nice things, but fails to answer the question, except to say "within the year." well jeez, that was the answer last year. this is pretty typical of things thus far. there is an accepted notion today that because MOA is a volunteer organization, that it is unreasonable to establish accountability for project status and completion. i think this is baloney. i agree that there may be project slippage because someone would rather go riding than do work for the club, but i think the milestone and accountability should exist and that slippage should be shown. and if a particular volunteer shows lots and lots of slip, and not a lot of progress, i think that an honest discussion can be held, and work can be done to partition the task to more than one volunteer, or a new volunteer can be recruited for the task.

hence my feeling is that the "powers that be" will not wake up to this if they havent already, and i am a big fan of them becoming the "powers that were."


With all due repect, I think my answer to your earlier question did provide a lot of information. Read it again. We were working on getting the on-line secure services running last year and that didn't get stable until into the winter (read: December of '04). As I said, that took a lot longer than expected (by months). But, that had to be done before work could start on the site split. Although that work may not be important to you, it is for a lot of members: over one-third of renewals are now done on-line, saving a lot of time and expense in the head office. It also supports on-line rally registration for us (the 'MOA) and we're looking at ways to use it for Chartered Club rallies.

The web team is divided into groups, one technical and one for content. I have given you as much detail as I can without being misleading. I can't speak in detail for the actions of the Web Technical Team - they are the ones directly responsible for working on the site split - as I said in my referenced answer to your earlier questions. As I know you know, Dave Swider is the Web Tech Team Manager - questions about this area should be directed to him.

As for publishing a list of names of who's doing what, that would seem to be an open invataion for personal attack if the history here is any guide. As I've tried to explain and answer questions, it seems if some don't like the answers or there is a difference of opinion, the result is often reckless charges or personal attacks.

The general idea that there is a lack of support for the web on the part of anyone currently working on the web site - or anyone on the Board - is, to quote you "balony". It's been said, and said again, by many - not just me - that a lot of work has gone into the foundation for the new web site. It's just not visable. So vote for who you will (although I have to say it seems a strange proposition to be voting againt someone who supports what you want done).

Thanks for your time.

[Hodag]

answers?? where are the answers lots of sidestepping as far as a schedule goes.

once again, how can I help?

[MarkF]

3) Unfortunatly, not every idea for web use is a good one. Not every bright light in the night sky is a UFO, or proof of the, and not every canded comment (read: negative) on a specific web suggestions is proof of an anti-web conspiricy.

Greg,

As a VP candidate would you care to tell us which ideas for web content you believe to be good and which ones are not? Then add what time table you believe is appropriate for start-up.

Dave,

Feel free to add your VP candidate two cents as well. (If it's allowed...)

[GregFeeler]

Greg,

As a VP candidate would you care to tell us which ideas for web content you believe to be good and which ones are not? Then add what time table you believe is appropriate for start-up.

Dave,

Feel free to add your VP candidate two cents as well. (If it's allowed...)


Yes, I would love to. Part of why I want to run again is to finish this specific work. I'll put something together and post it in a few days in some kind of "statement" format. There will likely be questions I'm sure, but I don't want to get into a pissin' contest with or against Dave or anyone here. I appreciate input from members and I respect Dave for wanting to serve on the Board.

[kbasa]

Getting the membership database to talk with the vBulletin database is proving to be very difficult.

At this point, this is the hold up. We've had a vendor working on it for a couple months with limited success. When this is complete, we'll be able to get the site split done and roll out the content we've got planned.

I know, I know, it's been taking forever. I'm at least as frustrated as anyone else. We've considered dual log ins. We've considered a funky scheme where you long in via the forum and it reveals new stuff on the MOA site. Ultimately, the easiest way to deal is with one unified log in that will present both the member content and perform the forum log in function. As the guy that gets all the help messages for the forum, there is considerable and understandable confusion on the part of members that assume one log in will work on both the e-commerce pages and the forum.

The complicating factors are that we have iMIS on one side, which serves to operate the membership database and runs in some locked down Cold Fusion templates. On the other side we have vBulletin, which runs on top of MySQL. We have to get these two disparate data structures talking with each other and this chore is presenting considerable challenges. We've contracted with the folks that do our iMIS implementation to help us and they've been at it for a while.

This isn't as simple as throwing up some html and calling it a day, it's a major and final piece of the infrastructure changes that have been going on for a year.

So there's your hold up. It's all about development and data structure integration, not some conspiracy. There's complete buy in from the Directors to make this happen with all due speed.

[Visian]

The complicating factors are that we have iMIS on one side, which serves to operate the membership database and runs in some locked down Cold Fusion templates. On the other side we have vBulletin, which runs on top of MySQL. We have to get these two disparate data structures talking with each other and this chore is presenting considerable challenges.

This was exactly the subject of the meeting I held with the vendor (assuming these are the same people now as the ones I met with then) back in June of 2003.

Sorry to hear that it's a tougher integration issue than expected. Quite frankly, I left the meeting thinking that the vendor wasn't going to be tasked with solving the problem.

Ian

[GregFeeler]

This was exactly the subject of the meeting I held with the vendor (assuming these are the same people now as the ones I met with then) back in June of 2003.

Sorry to hear that it's a tougher integration issue than expected. Quite frankly, I left the meeting thinking that the vendor wasn't going to be tasked with solving the problem.

Ian

It's a different, and better vendor.

[Visian]

Does iMIS still suck? (in the non-YB sense of the word...) ;)

Ian

[kbasa]

It's not great, but it's not painfully awful, either. It's biggest drawback is lack of flexibility. You can't really do much to customize thier templates, which is why the Country Store looks like it does.

[username]

With all due repect, I think my answer to your earlier question did provide a lot of information. Read it again.

i know you think that. you thinking that you have provided a useful response to my question is what concerns me. that's all i'm saying. i'm fine with you thinking that, so you don't have to defend it further.

As for publishing a list of names of who's doing what, that would seem to be an open invataion for personal attack if the history here is any guide. As I've tried to explain and answer questions, it seems if some don't like the answers or there is a difference of opinion, the result is often reckless charges or personal attacks.

if my boss asks me to do something, and then he comes by and wants to know if i've done it, it is not a personal attack. if i say, "boss, it ain't done, because of X, Y and Z and i expect to have it done by DATE" then that's ok. if i give him that line over and over, i get fired. ultimately, i have to deliver. along the way i need to convince him that i know what i am doing, and that i give him useful status information.

why divorce oneself from intelligent business practices just because it is a volunteer organization? in both situations, the goal is results.

personal attacks are not condoned on this site, the mods would step in and clamp down on that crap in a heartbeat. threads get locked when people cross that line, and that line is well-established in here. so i dont think that is a valid concern for a lack of transparency with regard to roles, responsibilites, and deadlines.

i'll say this, if people don't want to be judged in public by their peers, they should not take public positions of responsibility, whereby people endorse you via voting. there's some heat/kitchen thought coming to mind.

So vote for who you will (although I have to say it seems a strange proposition to be voting againt someone who supports what you want done).


it isn't strange at all. support is a necessary but not sufficient condition to earn my vote. i can get support from a jockstrap. anyone can nod their head, "uh-huh, yup, we gotta do that." however, support doesnt get stuff done. (i *support* having clean dishes, but i have to *wash* them to have any.) hence DOING something to move the club forward in its use of the online world to attract and enthuse a younger membership are what earn my vote. that means having a much more open mind regarding the use and content of the website. that's been lacking in this organization. simply by the fact that we are having a conversation like this in 2005, and not 1999, proves that. we're already late, we're behind, and other web resources are going to occupy the minds and time of BMW enthusiasts. given that the club membership average age is increasing faster than time is progressing, i'd say that something needs to be done.

the future ain't what it used to be, and it's coming. it's up to us to either have a future-focused group of leaders, or a bunch of folks pining for the old days.

[GregFeeler]

it isn't strange at all. support is a necessary but not sufficient condition to earn my vote. i can get support from a jockstrap. anyone can nod their head, "uh-huh, yup, we gotta do that." however, support doesnt get stuff done. (i *support* having clean dishes, but i have to *wash* them to have any.) hence DOING something to move the club forward in its use of the online world to attract and enthuse a younger membership are what earn my vote. that means having a much more open mind regarding the use and content of the website. that's been lacking in this organization. simply by the fact that we are having a conversation like this in 2005, and not 1999, proves that. we're already late, we're behind, and other web resources are going to occupy the minds and time of BMW enthusiasts. given that the club membership average age is increasing faster than time is progressing, i'd say that something needs to be done.

the future ain't what it used to be, and it's coming. it's up to us to either have a future-focused group of leaders, or a bunch of folks pining for the old days.


Ok, let me rephrase - it would be strange not to vote for people who were WORKING on improving this web site before the forum existed which now gives you a venue with which to hold this discussion.

I wasn't on the Board in 1999 - that was a different group of people who were at that time working to setup the Executive Director position - a very major step for this organization. But since I have been on the Board my major work has been to push this project, which has involved a lot of "clearing the brush away" before we could even get started.

Apparently you have a much different idea of how to work with volunteers than everyone else who's been involved with this. As I've said before, I manage technical projects for a national company for a living (read: bike payments :)) so use schedules and accountability on a daily basis. But, I get paid for that as does everyone else on the project. Volunteers don't.

We have a long tradition and a strong committment to volunteer labor for everything we can. As the 'MOA changes, that may change. But, you have to move carefully when starting to pay money to "professionals" for services that often-times even more qualified volunteers are alreading providing for free. We have a professional staff for the print media and may have to do so for the web - at some point. However, it's the collective judgement of the Board and the volunteers that it's the best approach right now to use the volunteer system during the major changes to the web site and as we "integrate" the print and web.

This is motorcycle club -first and foremost it's about riding and having a good time. That's not to say good managment practices don't have a place - not at all, but there has been so much to get into place for the chages we have in mind that the key focus was on the next objective in our path at a given moment. Dave Swider made an excellent post about the problems with the single login. A detailed long range schedule would have been pure fantasy up to now.

However, we are getting to the point where schdules are going to have a place. I've been asked to post my ideas, which I will do in a few days. Yes, from some perspective the 'MOA is "behind", but it is exacly the people you are questioning and doubting who have turned this ship around so recently. It's not just unfair to blame them for not being on "schedule" - it's wrong.

[Hodag]

Getting the membership database to talk with the vBulletin database is proving to be very difficult.
I know, I know, it's been taking forever. I'm at least as frustrated as anyone else. We've considered dual log ins. We've considered a funky scheme where you long in via the forum and it reveals new stuff on the MOA site. Ultimately, the easiest way to deal is with one unified log in that will present both the member content and perform the forum log in function. As the guy that gets all the help messages for the forum, there is considerable and understandable confusion on the part of members that assume one log in will work on both the e-commerce pages and the forum.

The complicating factors are that we have iMIS on one side, which serves to operate the membership database and runs in some locked down Cold Fusion templates. On the other side we have vBulletin, which runs on top of MySQL. We have to get these two disparate data structures talking with each other and this chore is presenting considerable challenges. We've contracted with the folks that do our iMIS implementation to help us and they've been at it for a while.


You guys have most likely already thought of this, and sorry if I don't use the correct verbage.

What about a single log-in using the iMIS database (which I believe is SQL, and is more of a contact d-base not really set-up for this sort of thing??), which then allows members to access to members only info. Within this members only info area, we could have all the features we have spoken about, and a link to a members only forum. Or just a simple posting area for classified?
From what I hear is that the vbulletin (mysql) and the IMis database don't mesh. So leave this forum alone and just make changes to the website, and maybe add another forum for classified type stuff.
Dual log-ins suck, but at work I log into 4 different programs using different passwords??

mark


P.S. Greg, and all the webguys I also agree that the things discussed here should not be viewed as personal attacks. Just people pushing and prodding (ok??) :thumb

[BradfordBenn]

What about a single log-in using the iMIS database (which I believe is SQL, and is more of a contact d-base not really set-up for this sort of thing??),

~~~ snip ~~~
Dual log-ins suck, but at work I log into 4 different programs using different passwords??

Actually the problem is that iMIS is a ColdFusion engine, and it is also a few versions behind. The iMIS engine was purchased as a membership and eCommerce gateway. The cookie used iMis and ColdFusion is not the same as the SQL cookie used by the Forum, nor is there an easy translation tool.

There is also lots of other stuff going on at greater speeds that are not always apparent but are part of the teams' work. There is stuff like the weekly club listing updates, Heard on the Road on a monthly basis, When and Where monthly, Mileage Contest form, Meeting Minutes, Rally 2005 updates, content updates such as BMW MOA at Cycleworld, the video from Corbin Ride On at Spokane...

So there is lots going on that is not always seen.

But this issue with trying to get the website split has been a puzzler for much of the team for a while. I have even cheated and asked the team at the office that is migrating from MAPICs to SAP (IBM AS/400 mainframe to Windows Server) Seeing that team which is a consulting staff of eight working full time and it is behind schedule as well. Some of this stuff just takes times.

None of us are resting on our laurels, but at times there are just plain stumpers.

[Rob Nye]

Hey now,

If you don't mind I will touch on a bunch of the issues / comments that have been raised here.

For background when Ian went out looking for the software that we would use for the forum the idea of a member’s only site was in the very early stages. This was driven by some of the rules regarding rights of publication, copyright etc. were material that had appeared in the Owners News could not be released to the general public.

Ian selected V Bulletin which we have all seen is a fantastic product. The idea was pitched to the board that we were going to have the rally discussion board run year round. We really didn't get into concepts like the clubhouse, campfire or tech pages.

Going back a bit further when I first joined the MOA board I was put on the Communications and Marketing committee. One of our tasks was to generate a proposal for using our member database for securing some part of our website. With about a month before the meeting the committee had yet to do much on a proposal and there was discussion of tabling the project to the May meeting. I did not want to do this because we really don't get much heavy lifting done between May and October, with the rally and riding it is difficult to get folks to spend a few hours a day working on a web project.

I contacted the vendor and discovered that not only had the software not been kept current but our current version had a hard limit of 40,000 records. IIRC we were around 34k in members at the time so this was something that could become a critical issue. We also were informed that the latest version incorporated secure services, utilizing plug-ins or modules to handle activities such as member join and renew, country store and event registration. What I didn’t do was spend a lot of time on how the two databases would communicate with each other as we were focused on secure services and getting online rally registration ready and the join and renew modules working properly. Generally speaking getting information from a SQL database is not too difficult. I also had some assurances from the vendors regarding our plans for a site using the db for authentication so we could have a member’s only area and felt cautiously optimistic about our plans.

During this time the C&M committee started studying what a split site would look like and what content would be for members only. Shortly before the May meeting I submitted a rough template of our current content, added some archives and presented it to the C&M committee as an example of a split site. This is the only example ever generated and if we split the site tomorrow this is what we would use. Some would suggest we wait to split the site until the template is updated; it is this kind of ying and yang that has at time prevented forward motion.

During the time from when the board approved the upgrade and we introduced the secure services the office hardware was also upgraded. All of this work was done by paid staff or contractors under the direction of our Executive Director, Ray Zimmerman. There were a few vendor generated surprises, and a little bit of scope creep. There was point when the project was a bit stalled. I had a frank and candid discussion with the vendor which got us moving again however we had to switch vendors. We are much happier with the performance of our current iMIS vendor.

On the volunteer side the forum was humming along and we were very pleased with how things were going. From the forum we had a track day planned, a new club formed and many friendships made which after all is the cornerstone of our purpose. What we didn’t have was new content or a plan for keeping the site current and fresh, even though we have a tech team consisting of seven we never got anything to post other than monthly updates to the page that teases on the upcoming Owners News.. There were plenty of people focused on some of the big picture ideas suggested by Ian however under the structure in place an article on the 2004 Boxer Cup series festered on the front page for almost a year, or seven months after the event and series had been cancelled. While having new model press releases or insider information would be a great thing to have we have been struggling for any new content; this is why Dave and I set up the deal with Smugmug and the picture of the week, to provide a member benefit for our on-line members and to rotate something new on the home page.

Our tech team generated a new look for the site, simplified navigation and prepared the foundation for a much larger site integrating much of the ideas discussed here. Along the way we often thought we were close to having the security issue licked, more often than not someone would proclaim that we were ready or about ready to rollout a whiz bang feature before all the research on how to make the whiz bang was complete, call it over- enthusiasm. From a technical stand point we demonstrated an example of a split site at the last board meeting in St. Louis and while I can not give an exact date we are close to having the interface in place between the member data base and the forum. As Dave Swider pointed out the million dollar hurdle is getting the forum data base and the member db to authenticate against each other. Our goal is to have a single username and logon for the forum, member area and secure services although you will probably have to re-login for the secure services. Any other solution we looked at gets real sloppy from both the technical and user standpoint. We experimented in a test environment using only the SQL db, however we ran into problems modifying the proprietary code of the iMIS system.

So where are we today? We have a great forum and a pretty good secure services site. Our website has a good look and feel for the infrequent or first time visitor but gets very stale very fast. We are working on resolving some issues of content and the division of information between print and the web and I expect some major progress in this area going forward but we must improve our process of generating interim content. We have paid staff working on the connection between the data bases and I also expect some progress in this area but I am not sure how quickly it will be. We purchase time from the vendor in blocks and right now the priority is making sure everything is in place for rally pre-registration which opens in just a few days.

Does the current board support the website and the forum? I would say absolutely yes. While some of us spend a bit more time on the forum, you can rest assured that those members of the board you don’t see posting are reading.

Best,

Rob Nye
Secretary BMW MOA
IT Manager (Global)
B+H Ocean Carriers Ltd.
Proud to move oil

[GregFeeler]

P.S. Greg, and all the webguys I also agree that the things discussed here should not be viewed as personal attacks. Just people pushing and prodding (ok??) :thumb


Understood. :thumb

[Visian]

OK, nice simple picture of an integrated information flow. Just a scribble. This flow would vary by content type.

http://www.visian.nu/eMOA/images/infoflow1.jpg

Ian

[GregFeeler]

Greg,

As a VP candidate would you care to tell us which ideas for web content you believe to be good and which ones are not? Then add what time table you believe is appropriate for start-up.

Dave,

Feel free to add your VP candidate two cents as well. (If it's allowed...)

Mark and all,
Now that it seems most everyone is getting their copy of the Owner's News and ballots, it seems like a good time to post this link: www.e-moto.com. My position statement is there, plus some of that "VP Candidate two cents" you mentioned, and some other things. :brow