Shop Manuals

[ROLAND]

ARE THE HAYNES OR CLYMER SHOP MANUALS ANY REAL HELP,WHICH IS BEST ? HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FACTORY MANUALS COST. I HAVE A R1150 GS. THANKS :dunno

[lorazepam]

Either one will give you torque values for the nuts and bolts, and The clymer manual I bought has color schematics of the wiring in it. It will help you with pictures and procedures on doing many different maintenance issues, and if you want to tear down the bike, they will help with that also. I think they are worth getting.

[roy]

I am a "K" bike owner but will chip in my $.02 worth.

1) I have both the Clymer & Haynes manuals for my bike. The Haynes is less detailed than Clymer but has better picture quality over all.

2) I have found torque and assembly discrepencies between these two manuals. As an attempt to alleviate this I have ordered a factory manual.

3) Factory manual for my 85 is still paper and is $89. Newer manuals are CDs and I was told around $125. I have been told these are more geared towards BMW service technicians. Hopefully will have it tomorrow. If you want an update on my opinion of the factory manual let me know.

Bottom line: If you are going to do any seriuos wrenching you had better get at least one of the above.

Hope this helps from one of the "K" boys.

[Mika]

If you intend to do your own wrenching build a library of all the options. As others have replied each has advantages that will make a difference depending on what you are doing at a given time. The factory CD runs about $120, but versions can be found on e-bay from $0.01 to $20.00 plus shipping.

[JetDoc]

If you intend to do your own wrenching build a library of all the options. As others have replied each has advantages that will make a difference depending on what you are doing at a given time. The factory CD runs about $120, but versions can be found on e-bay from $0.01 to $20.00 plus shipping.

A note of warning though... The CD manuals you see for sale on ebay are probably pirated (illegal) copies of an original CD. They may be poor quality copies, and sale of such items is a violation of copyright law. If you buy one, you're also guilty. Let your conscience be your guide.

[YB in IN]

I am a "K" bike owner but will chip in my $.02 worth.

1) I have both the Clymer & Haynes manuals for my bike. The Haynes is less detailed than Clymer but has better picture quality over all.

2) I have found torque and assembly discrepencies between these two manuals. As an attempt to alleviate this I have ordered a factory manual.

3) Factory manual for my 85 is still paper and is $89. Newer manuals are CDs and I was told around $125. I have been told these are more geared towards BMW service technicians. Hopefully will have it tomorrow. If you want an update on my opinion of the factory manual let me know.

Bottom line: If you are going to do any seriuos wrenching you had better get at least one of the above.

Hope this helps from one of the "K" boys.

I would reccomend that if you are going to buy a factory manual that you also go ahead and get a Haynes or Clymer manual as well. When my dad and I have gone through our factory manual we've noticed that they tend to leave some steps out about things that they assume you as a factory technician would already know about. Also, I remember one time when I still had my airhead we were doing something or other on it that had a critical warning about what not to do in the Haynes manual in big bold letters, and that the Clymer made no mention of. It may have been the other way around, but you get my point. It's always good to cross-reference between to see if there are any discrepancies between the two. If you have any doubts this forum, and the IBMWR Tech Archives are a good place to check.

[flash412]

A note of warning though... The CD manuals you see for sale on ebay are probably pirated (illegal) copies of an original CD. They may be poor quality copies, and sale of such items is a violation of copyright law. If you buy one, you're also guilty. Let your conscience be your guide.One of the points of digital media is that there are no "poor quality copies." Unlike copying cassette tapes, the hundredth copy of a CD made from the 99th copy (et cetera) is indistinguishable in quality from the original (assuming that the copy equipment was functioning properly).

While there is truth in the copyright issue, it it curious to consider why BMW gets more for a CD than for paper copies. Compared to paper manuals, CD's cost almost nothing to reproduce, ship or store. They are the ultimate "just in time" product. BMW does not even need to make one until there is an order for it. So if there is no money tied up in inventory, reproduction, or storage, why does BMW charge us even MORE for CD manuals than they do for a book version of a manual?

[syeager]

So if there is no money tied up in inventory, reproduction, or storage, why does BMW charge us even MORE for CD manuals than they do for a book version of a manual?

Probably because they know that for every 6 to 10 electronic manuals in use throughout the world at any given time, maybe 1 of them was paid for.

[GlobalRider]

They may be poor quality copies, and sale of such items is a violation of copyright law. If you buy one, you're also guilty. Let your conscience be your guide.

I can't see how they can be poor quality copies. A digital copy is a digital copy.

As for pirated copies, I don't see BMW giving anyone a price break over the real cost of a paper copy which costs quite a bit more than a CD-R.

BTW, you can get original service CDs in Australia and the UK for a fraction of the cost...so I've read on the numerous forums.

[flash412]

As for pirated copies, I don't see BMW giving anyone a price break over the real cost of a paper copy which costs quite a bit more than a CD-R. BTW, you can get original service CDs in Australia and the UK for a fraction of the cost...so I've read on the numerous forums.It seems like BMW is encouraging piracy with their egregious policies. Heck they even gave the airhead and oilhead models pirate names such as ARGH Elebenfiddy ARGH Ess.

[syeager]

Hm. By that logic, if they charged less, people would be less likely to make copies of it? Dunno if I agree with that. People make bootleg copies of a $15 boy-band CD to hand out to their friends - and that material is (to most) less of a commidity than maintenance info on a $10K + motorcycle - simply because the technology to do so is readily available and becomes more so everyday. And it's not that the CD needs to be copied; just the 50 Mb or so PDF file (the reader for which just about everyone has). Imagine how many copies of THAT have been emailed from one backyard wrench to another. Ever makes copies of an entire printed manual in less than ten minutes for one of your friends?

Anyway, off my soapbox...

I think the CD is priced high, but I've bought multiple copies of airhead manuals over the years... in regular heavy use, they get oil on them, get wrinkly in damp condition, sometimes the dog chews on them.

On the other hand, I can buy the CD and print copies of the relevant sections until I've gone broke on ink and paper for the various printers I have around the house. Or I can go to Kinkos and have them laminate every page and bind the whole mess in something that'll work better in my particular situation. Point is, by the time I add up the cost of all the printed manuals I'd buy during my GS' life, the CD is a good value proposition.

[GlobalRider]

Point is, by the time I add up the cost of all the printed manuals I'd buy during my GS' life, the CD is a good value proposition.

True, but it doesn't explain why BMW NA and BMW Canada has to charge $125 (or thereabouts) for the service CD when BMW Australia and BMW UK sell it for about $25. That price as claimed by forums posts.

Another thing about BMW is their absolute need for national security for the most incredibly unimportant issues, like their parts CD. I happen to have one. Very handy and it doesn't contain any national security information that I didn't already know.

Next is their dealer information. Sure, a name, address, URL and e-mail is available by going to the BMW International site and clicking on the country of interest. But have these bozzos not heard of GPS coordinates or are BMWs only to be used to go to the corner store for milk. Every once in a while I send a nastygram to BMW AG and heckle them about this. And they think of themselves as a company that produces motorcycles for serious travellers...yet no GPS coordinates. :p

[syeager]

Good points, Alex.

Well, with all the "standardization" going on between the BMW dealerships, I suppose Motorrad will make it a requirement at some point for them all to submit GPS coordinates before they can be certified.

Maybe they've done market research that suggests the US market is more prone to pirating CD's, thus the higher cost? But I'd love someone to substantiate the price overseas, and really compare it.

[JetDoc]

Maybe they've done market research that suggests the US market is more prone to pirating CD's, thus the higher cost? But I'd love someone to substantiate the price overseas, and really compare it.

Or maybe their market research suggests that just like all the other BMW branded parts and accessories, there are American customers willing to pay the higher prices just because it has the BMW stamp of approval on it. It works for Harley-Davidson!

[lkchris]

... I don't see BMW giving anyone a price break over the real cost of a paper copy which costs quite a bit more than a CD-R.


The cost of printing or digitizing a manual is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of writing it in the first place.

Here we are with one of the world's more expensive motorcycles and there are complaints about the cost of service manuals!

Be thankful you don't own a Volvo, where the cost is in the thousands.

[Mika]

In regard to the original question I again urge you to begin a library of different manuals etc, if you intend to work on your bike. Each will give you a different look at the same topic. Some will be better for you in one area than others. If you buy only one it is a bit like being in a one room school and expecting the teacher to be equally lucid on frames as they are on wiring diagrams. They may be, but the may not.

I am pleased to see all the discussion about the issues related to buying CDs on e-bay. Without batting and eye or discussing the merits of it, e-bay is trotted out regularly on other forum sites as a source for cheep software. The issues are a bit more complex that dealing with copyright law, and I would argue that ethics on the internet can be confusing at best.

I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on television. Copyright law and prices vary from country to country. Laws regarding the sale of items on the internet vary from country to country. A current example in the news deals with French e-bay. The French have banned the sale of Nazi memorabilia on e-bay. To date no other country has. French courts are attempting to expand the application of their legislation outside their boarders by attempting to force e-bay in all countries comply with their law, even if the sale of such items is not illegal in the other host countries.

I have purchased several variants of BMW manuals on e-bay and have purchased them through legitimate BMW dealers, on the net, in various countries. This was done as part of a project for a client. The ethics of this were discussed, and working with the client’s legal council we do not believe we violate the law. The e-bay CDs were eventually destroyed at the end of the investigation, while the client allowed me to keep dealer purchased CDs that cover my bike. The client knew I ride a BMW when the project searches began.

PRICES: Some were clearly bootleg and some have all the appearance of being factory originals in cases similar to the ones sold by the dealers. Bootleg prices were higher than some of the factory CDs purchase elsewhere, depending on how new the model was and general availability of the CD at dealers. Prices varied from $0.01 to $120.00. US dealer prices were the highest across the board.

QUALITY: There was a difference in the visual quality, i.e. packaging quality, disc labels or lack there off. We found no difference in the quality of the content. We printed from all and all produced acceptable quality inkjet and laser copies. There were strange combinations of models covered on all of the CD, regardless of source, the purpose of which was not clear to me. In our samples the content was consistent in the samples tested.

I am pleased that we are having a debate about buying bootleg items on a BMW sanctioned club site. I am not going to debate ethics. It is something that needs to be discussed but I have been long winded enough on the above while trying to setup my next point.

How can we as a club impact this issue?

I am all for supporting dealers. Over my work and riding carrier I have lived a long distance from dealers at various times. I know the value of having a good dealer network out there. I know they need to make a buck in order to survive and I regularly do my bit to keep the dealers in my area alive.

Do we as good BMW fans purchase things at astronomical prices? Do we opine on our forum the various vagaries of the issue and little more? Or is there a way for us, as a club and forum, to lobby the brand to promote a pricing structure that helps the factory recover the cost of writing the publications required by their dealers to do the required maintenance, allows the dealer to make a buck on the sale of CD or other support material that the guy who is going to work on his bike anyway is going to buy, and does not put us as hands on enthusiasts in an ethical quandary?

[GlobalRider]

...to lobby the brand to promote a pricing structure that helps the factory recover the cost of writing the publications required by their dealers to do the required maintenance, allows the dealer to make a buck on the sale of CD or other support material that the guy who is going to work on his bike anyway is going to buy...

The cost of producing service information should be and is part of the cost of producing a vehicle from the stage of the drawing board. A manufacturer cannot produce a vehicle without providing the service support to the dealers. Raping the consumer in an effort to make up those costs and to also protect the dealer from losing service profits only leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer.

Years ago, and possibly still today, my local BMW car dealer would not sell a service manual to a customer. I finally managed to get one on microfiche. I can tell you I would NEVER consider the purchase of another BMW car without a service CD thrown into the sale....period!

[syeager]

I had a fleeting thought years ago that if I owned my own dealership, as part of maintaining good relations with a customer I'd include a service manual and parts catalog with a bike purchase - either at the initial purchase itself or at the conclusion of the bike's initial warranty period. Sure would beat key fobs and coffee cups :p

Call me an idealist.

[syeager]

... then again, I'm often surprised at how many BMW owners I run into who DON'T turn wrenches on their own bikes, even for simple things like turn signal bulb replacements.

Maybe coffee cups and key fobs are more important to those folks.

[BubbaZanetti]

i found the entire R1100S manual in pdf, all 370 pages of it, for free, i'm sure these exist for all the bikes

now, i'm just trying to figure out if the data management people at work would catch on if i printed up a 370 page manual through their network........

[RT_guy]

Interesting thread. I did a google on "r1150rt manual pdf" and came up with numerous sites with downloadable factory manuals. I'm surprised BMW doesn't prosecute for copyright violations.

[Hodag]

yesterday the service manager at my shop said, "if you need specific info from our service manual, just let me know and I'll print out the pages"
I doubt he would print out all of them, but if you are buying oil filters I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving you the pages for an oil change.

[syeager]

A handy - and legal/moral/karmatically correct - resource: <a href="http://www.bmwbobs.com/catalog/2003_catalog/Oil-Head_Parts.pdf">Bob's BMW's Parts Catalog</a>

Not the complete list for any particular bike, but it's just about everything you could need anytime soon.