Weeping Ring Gear Seal....help!

[bugley]

I've discovered that my weeping ring gear seal on my 96 RS has graduated to a leaker. Not bad, but a drop here and there and it probably won't seal itself! Would like to replace this seal myself but was wondering if anyone has any first hand experience in this repair and would be willing to share some wisdom?

Specifically, after the rear tire is off, the caliper set aside, rear disc assembly is removed from the ring gear cover, the cover is next - after fluid drain. If I separate this cover from the case to get to the ring gear seal, will the shim and bearing behind it just fall off and require some special procedure to reassemble or can you simply pull the cover, remove the seal, replace the seal, and then reinstall the cover onto the case?

Can this procedure be done without removing the whole ring and pinion case assembly from the bike? The Clymers that I have focuses more on the pinion and is pretty thorough but is somewhat lacking information on ring gear seal replacement. Any and all help would be appreciated. :)

[MCMXCIVRS]

I had to replace mine a few years ago for the same reason. As I recall it was a pretty simple job. Once the brake disc is removed the seal is easily removed. I just drilled a small hole near the outer edge, inserted a small sheet metal screw and pulled the seal out with a large set of channel lock pliers. Then carefully tap the new one into place making sure not to get it cocked. I don't think I used any sort of seal driver, just work slowly around the circumference of the seal tapping it in with a soft face hammer. I imagine that it could be done with the final drive on the bike, I had mine off to inspect and replace the paralever bearings.

[MechanicSavant]

If you're concerned about instaling the new seal w/out a driver take the new one to your local home ctr. or plumbing supply house & forage through thier plastic plumbing fittings ,odds are real good you'lle be able to find the right size piece to do the job...I'd rather waste a $3 plastic fitting than a new seal... :doh

[Chickenman_26]

I replaced my seal about 6 months ago. Just like Ed suggested, I pulled the seal out with a sheet metal screw. The new seal can be pressed in with your thumbs. Make sure to clean the output shaft's sealing area before installing the new seal.

CM

[bugley]

Contacted the Reverend Doctor Paul Glaves on this weeping ring gear seal thing and he recommended that I first try draining the synthetic fluid in the final drive, let it drain fully, replace it with normal dino hypoid fluid and go out and put about 100 miles on it. Well folks, I don't understand all the techno reasons why it worked, BUT IT DID WORK! :D Seal expansion? No more weeping/leaking! Thanks Paul for this simple suggestion. It saved me some dollars, some aggrivation, but most of all it saved me some time. Always prefer riding to wrenching!

:twirl

[Chickenman_26]

I've stopped seeping from fork seals this way...by replacing old fluid with new. It's called "flushing to remove contaminants" and has nothing to do with the effects of dino oil vs. synthetic on oil seals. That's an old tale that refuses to die, but Paul apparently still subscribes to it.

Stu

[dano]

All the more reason to keep fresh lube in the final drive! :thumb

[bugley]

I've stopped seeping from fork seals this way...by replacing old fluid with new. It's called "flushing to remove contaminants" and has nothing to do with the effects of dino oil vs. synthetic on oil seals. That's an old tale that refuses to die, but Paul apparently still subscribes to it.

Stu

I too have been quilty of only opening my mouth only to change feet. How do we say "contempt prior to investigation"?

The bike had very, very, new fluid in it - a lot of it- and it was unlikely that the kulprit was "contaminants".

Here is the scenario: The bike is a 98 R model with a grand total of 7k on the clock. I had the final drive fluid changed, flushed and refilled with BMW synthetic at 4k which was less than a year ago. About a month ago I noticed residue on the rear rim after a ride. Investigated and found fluid pooling on the bottom of final drive drain plug.

Cleaned off reside and pooling, tightened final drive plug. rode again with same result. Dropped plug and drained fluid(very little "residue" on magnetic plug), refilled with BMW synthetic, installed new crush washer, torqued plug rode bike 160+ miles. Result: smaller amount of residue on rear rim, cleaned same, loosened and retorqued final drive plug.

Sat overnight but showed pooling again the next morning.

Redid the drain (no residue on magnetic plug), refill, another crush washer, retourque bit and rode again. Sat over night and pooling again the next morning!

Contacted Paul, took his advice in draining synthetic and refilled with dino, yet another crush washer, retorque and rode for a tank of gas. No residue after ride - good sign.

Sat overnight and not a trace of new fluid - better sign!

Rode for another tank of gas. No residue after ride - great sign! Sat for the last week with no trace of fluid weap, pooling, leaking - NO, NADA, NEIN, LA, ZERO.

Like I said previously, I don't understand the magic here and don't really care what did it - whether the dino restored the elasticity to the elastometer seal, wheter all this flushing got all those old gremlins out or whether the glavanic responses in the case finally aligned with Neptune - I really don't give a care! I'm just giving thanks to Paul for his help and advice which saved me some time and money. It might not work in every case, but if you've got a leaking pinion or ring gear seal, or perhaps even a tranny seal, or a bike has been sitting for a period of time, or is an older low mileage bike like mine, you might try going to the dino first and see what happens. :p

Thought I was going to procrastinate today, but I decided to do it tomorrow.

[Chickenman_26]

I too have been quilty of only opening my mouth only to change feet. How do we say "contempt prior to investigation"? In my case, it's contempt after investigation. Not investigation of your particular bike, but investigation of the claim made by some that synthetic oils cause seals to leak. Doesn't happen. That was the point I wanted to make. I'm sorry the way I made it didn't sit well with you. There was nothing in your previous posts to indicate that you'd previously flushed the fluid.

[bugley]

There was nothing in your previous posts to indicate that you'd previously flushed the fluid.

No offense taken big guy. BUT - As I said - "contempt prior to investigation". There is alot of knowledge swirling around in our heads that is based on insufficiet and/or faulty data and a lot of our decisions are made and opinions formed on this data. At no point did I ever say that synthetic caused the problem. Rather, what I did say is that changing to dino fluid cured the symptom displayed. I don't know if this is temporary or permanent, only time will tell, but the seal no longer weeps/leaks and I can use the time riding the bike rather than wrenching on it - and you can take that to the bank.:D

[MCMXCIVRS]

I was still using the dino based oil in mine when it developed it's leak. I've since switched to synthetic and have not had it leak with the new seal in more than 60,000 Kms. There should be no relationship between the type of lube and the seals ability to keep it in. If its getting past the seal, the seal is bad. It is probably just that the dino lube with different flow characteristics is less likey to leak past a marginal seal. I'd bet that you'll eventually have to do the wrenching anyway. My feeling is better to do it when its convienient rather than have it turn into a major leak somwhere inconvienient. I like to do the wrenching so I can keep riding when I go.

[bugley]

There should be no relationship between the type of lube and the seals ability to keep it in. If its getting past the seal, the seal is bad. It is probably just that the dino lube with different flow characteristics is less likey to leak past a marginal seal. I'd bet that you'll eventually have to do the wrenching anyway. My feeling is better to do it when its convienient rather than have it turn into a major leak somwhere inconvienient. I like to do the wrenching so I can keep riding when I go.

You're probably right on all accounts. Will keep an close eye on it as I ride locally but will seriously consider changeing it out as time allows prior to our long ride we have planned in May. Experience dictates that this is probably not a long term cure but Paul tells me that he did this same switch and it is still holding up after quite some miles on his wife's bike - 60,000 miles(km's) if memory serves me correctly.

After lots of rain here over the past month, riding is beautiful right now and want to get in as much as I can. Aside from the pure pleasure, it will give me a chance to pinpoint other areas requireing opening up the old tool box and try to do everything that is practical all at one time, or maybe two times, or.....?!

[PGlaves]

Since I unwittingly contributed to this thread - I'll chime in here. I have had first hand personal experience with several final drive and transmission seals which leaked with synthetic and not with dino lube. On my wife's R1100 I have switched back and forth more than once - and on my K75 I have switched back and forth - and in these cases with each switch synthetic leaks and dino doesn't leak - within 100 miles of the change.

I have received at least a dozen email questions about leaking seals over the past few years - and advise that before tearing the unit down - try replacing synthetic with dino lube. In about 75% of these cases the report back is that the leak stopped. There are reasons that some old wives tales don't die completely.

I know that a new seal would probably hold the synthetic fine for a while. But I see no reason to do a seal replacement when a change in the lubricant does the same thing - for now at least. And that "for now" can be a very long time. The leak first appeared on Voni's R1100RS in 1995 on the way to a rally in Texas. The bike had 78,000 miles on it. It now has 315,000 miles on it - with the same seal - which still holds dino oil fine but leaks with synthetic. And given the longevity of the final drive in that bike and in my K75 at 361,000 miles I don't think the dino lube is doing either bike any harm.

So, even if it means I get accused of believing old wives tales - I will continue to advise a change from synthetic to dino lube first, when a seal is leaking. I seldom offer advice about things I don't know first hand.

[Chickenman_26]

Dear Paul,

You know what has worked for you, and you recommend it to others as a first measure. That's fine. I don't doubt for one second that your experience with these oils is exactly what you claim; first hand experience. We all should be so lucky. Where I disagree is in the idea that this experience warrants recommending fluid replacement as a reliable, permanent repair. As a get-me-home measure? Certainly. But the fact that the leak has stopped is not proof that the seal is "cured."

As Wing World's technical editor, I always advised my readers to attack their problems rather than their symptoms. Unfortunately, the cheap and easy "fix" is usually the most attractive, if not the most effective, and it's often seen as addressing the root cause when it doesn't.

Leakage after switching to synthetics is clear evidence of a seal problem, not an oil problem. I'd consider it an early warning. And frankly, I'd be grateful for the opportunity to correct that problem in the workshop as opposed to somewhere in the outback. Switching back to petroleum-based lubricants may accommodate a weak, hardened, or worn seal temporarily, but it repairs nothing. Yes, the seal may hold again for many thousands of miles under "normal" conditions. Then again, it may begin passing the "dino" lubricant at a most inopportune time and place as the seal becomes worse, especially in extremely hot weather or if the vent becomes obstructed. And once that happens, then what?

If the seal and shaft are both clean and in good condition, neither regular nor synthetic oils will leak, not even under conditions of elevated heat or pressure. Once the marginal seal is replaced, and provided the shaft is undamaged, the choice of oil type becomes immaterial as it regards leakage.

Regards,

Stu Oltman
Scottsdale, Az.
480.860.8057
hgo@cox.net

[PGlaves]

Stu, you and I are somewhat in agreement. We agree that properly replacing a weeping seal against a clean and undamaged surface will stop the leak. We also agree that some seals go bad and will contain neither synthetic nor dino lubricant and must be replaced. I see this as a continuum. A pristine seal does well regardless of lubricant type. As the seal ages, synthetic lube sometimes leaks when dino lube doesn't. Eventually, the seal just leaks and needs to be replaced. You believe that if a seal leaks synthetic lube it is the fault of the seal. I believe that if it leaks synthetic lube but not dino lube it may well be the fault of the lubricant. You believe that a seal that leaks synthetics is a sign of seal failure. I believe that if it doesn't leak dino lubricant it is a sound seal - particularly in every bike I own where BMW specs regular dino lubricant. If I owned a bike that was required by specification to use synthetic lubricant, or if I owned a bike which otherwise needed to use synthetic lube, and the seal leaked I would agree the seal needed to be replaced, but if the seal contains the spec'd lubricant then I don't necessarliy have a problem with that seal.

This is a definition of terms thing and I don't think we are going to agree beyond what we already agree on.