Both fast and safe in the twisties?

[BCKRIDER]

Just wondered how those of you that consistently wear out the edges of your tires first on public roads manage to do that? I get all the stuff about turning your head, looking toward the exit, keeping your eyes level with the road, steering with a quick push, trusting your tires (assuming the road surface is good) and gradually accelerating through the turn while mildly "hanging off." In fact, I practice those things on every ride, though at a pretty modest pace.

Must admit that I really don't understand "trail braking." Am I correct that carrying a little front brake as you start the turn allows the bike to turn quicker? Is this a useful technic for "intermediate" road riders such as myself? A track day is not likely in my future, so confine your advice to lightly travelled back roads.

What I REALLY DON'T GET is what you do when, leaned well over, you are confronted with a deer, boulder, stalled vehicle, etc. in your lane. Or an approaching vehicle that's using a third of your lane. In my experience, 99% of all turns are "blind." In other words, you have only a few seconds to see what is in your land - or APPROACHING in your lane.

Any rider can learn to ride fast through the twisties - and a number of them die every year when their skill level is not up to their speed. I'm inviting those of you who are not just quick but have survived your quickness for a decade or more to share your thoughts. I doubt that I am the only one who has a lot to learn.

[johnnywishbone]

i entered a turn too fast. a blind turn. i saw a rock in front of me. say, the size of a soccer ball. i was totally committed and leaned over hard. the front wheel hit the rock, the bike wobbled a little, and that was end of story. no nothing. no problem, no drama.
BMW HANDLING. that's where the extra money went. that was a R100/7.

some of your questions confuse me. but then, tv remotes confuse me.

[Mika]

I don’t wear out the edges of my tires as much as I once did. However; I do enjoy riding winding country roads with a good deal of alacrity. I don’t have the skills to answer some of your questions and will leave that for others to comment on. The OP’s last two paragraphs set up a false paradigm, at least to my eye, seeming to equate sport riding with being unsafe.

The hazards described confront all riders. What will you do on a K 1600 GT riding two up loaded for a trip up the North Shore of Lake Superior when you round a bend traveling well within the speed limit and are confronted by a moose in the middle of the road? Hopefully you are paying attention to your riding and not just gawking at the scenery, have practiced your riding skills and are constantly updating your riding strategies as you scoot along. I know that is what I am doing and in a focused way when I am sport riding.

Motorcycle deaths are a serious topic. Unfortunately many of these deaths involve drinking and riding. Speed is seriously intoxicating. Its affects on ANY rider start when they twist the throttle and let out the clutch. This is a great topic and I hope to learn from my fellow members. I just hope it is a discussion of sport riding and the safe development of skills and use of them.

[rocketmanli]

Put on a bunch of miles in 29 years, and always thought I knew everything. Last summer, finally had an opportunity to experience the Tail of the Dragon. Challenged myself, not to ride it too fast or too slow, but to try it without hitting the brakes, at all. First couple of tries, found it impossible to do. By the 5th or 6th time, it was about 90% possible (and that was 2-up). After that short trip, I had 100% more confidence in me and my bike; knew what we both could handle within reason, and now realize that under normal circumstances, as long as my bike keeps moving, it will stay vertical. Also, hitting the brakes has its appropriate times, but may not always be the best answer to a given situatiion. Unlike a car, acceleration sometimes is the answer. Just need to make that decision and analyze the situation in a split second; most likely intuition, instinct and experience, rather than thinking it out. Simple enough concept, but had to prove it to myself. Looking where I want to go, breathing steady, not panicking, and letting the bike do its thing, will get me home safe. Even an old dog can learn something new.

[Rad]

No expert here. I do work the edges of my tires fairly well and have done so for a few decades.

I ride narrow twisty two lane redwood tree lined mountain roads every day on my commute. This 4 ½ mile stretch has about 100 changes of direction.
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/56367170_MnYi4-M.jpg

There is no magic to surviving that for the decades I have. You have to have enough skill, good gear, a good bike and most importantly, good judgment.

I have my personal “rules of engagement”; these must all be met in order to ride near my traction limits.

Good weather
No traffic
Good road surface
Good site line through the turn
not riding in a group
No mail boxes or driveways!

A funny thing happens to me when I wick it up, my focus and concentration goes up accordingly. In some regards I’m safer and more on my game at speed. I wish I could say I have the same focus at moderate paces, but I don’t. It is important to note that I know myself well enough to be able to tell rather quickly if I’m on my game” at that moment. If I’m not, I back way off.

I have one other technique that helps. I ride the straights at moderate speeds and carry that speed into the corners. I don’t hammer out of turns or need to brake heavily setting up my turns. That is why I can ride a BMW that only has about 100hp, it is about the turns for me, not the straights.

Another thing, I’m far the fastest out there, and that is just fine with me.

Oh ya, the most important reason I have survived all these years, I have been lucky! When I go, chances are Bambi will take me out. At the posted speed or double that, if Bambi decides to bolt from the brush, I'm toast.

I forgot, you said, "safe". As we taught in the previous MSF curriculum, the definition of “safe” is, absence of risk…It ain’t going to happen.

[Greenwald]

Just wondered how those of you that consistently wear out the edges of your tires first on public roads manage to do that? I get all the stuff about turning your head, looking toward the exit, keeping your eyes level with the road, steering with a quick push, trusting your tires (assuming the road surface is good) and gradually accelerating through the turn while mildly "hanging off." In fact, I practice those things on every ride, though at a pretty modest pace.

Must admit that I really don't understand "trail braking." Am I correct that carrying a little front brake as you start the turn allows the bike to turn quicker? Is this a useful technic for "intermediate" road riders such as myself? A track day is not likely in my future, so confine your advice to lightly travelled back roads.

What I REALLY DON'T GET is what you do when, leaned well over, you are confronted with a deer, boulder, stalled vehicle, etc. in your lane. Or an approaching vehicle that's using a third of your lane. In my experience, 99% of all turns are "blind." In other words, you have only a few seconds to see what is in your land - or APPROACHING in your lane.

Any rider can learn to ride fast through the twisties - and a number of them die every year when their skill level is not up to their speed. I'm inviting those of you who are not just quick but have survived your quickness for a decade or more to share your thoughts. I doubt that I am the only one who has a lot to learn.

If you have the opportunity 'up there in the northwoods,' take the MSF Advanced Rider Course (ARC). This is NOT a recycled version of an ERC, but rather a whole new animal that spends a lot of range time working thru the very scenarios you describe.

Braking while leaning thru a curve is addressed, along with swerving while leaning thru a curve - previously, both significant "No - No's"

I learned a lot when I took it last August, and wrote an article about it in the January 2011 ON.

As for trail braking, two ways I use this technique. First, I can "dial in" a set amount of throttle and set amount of friction zone (clutch), and then all my momentum is modulated by pressure on the rear brake only.

It was an essential technique for many of the LEO maneuvers we did as Motor Officers, but also can be applicable to civilian riding.

Secondly, I can use some rear brake pressure for speed control in twisties (I use it a fair amount when riding The Dragon) as well.

No forum advice is an adequate substitute for good training, though, so find a resource near you and best of luck! :thumb

[pffog]

As someone that has yet to get 3K out of a set of tires, in the last 45K miles (you do the math $$, it would make me cry), A certified corner addict, that always wears out the sides before the centers, here is my advice. For the street, track is different.

1. NEVER try to be fast, ALWAYS try to be SMOOTH!!! SMOOTH is fast, simple as that, plus a lot less work, a lot less surprises, and much more room for error.

2. Stay in the low gears, in the twisties keep it singing, 4k-5k PLUS rpm range, on a boxer. This eliminates 90% of brake usage as the the engine does most the slowing. It also keeps it simple, instead of thinking about front and rear brakes, clutch and throttle to think about, you just have one speed control, at your right wrist to do it all (keep it simple).

3. Do any braking and all the slowing (see throttle note) PRIOR to turn in. If you need to slow down while turning you went in too fast. You should be adding or maintaining throttle as soon as you turn in, if you have a good sight line.

4. Delay turn in (delay Apex) as long as possible and always have lane position for maximum sight lines, be it near the center on R handers, and on the fog line for L handers. Once you commit, run to the inside to apex.

5. Plan on apexing 8" to 12" from the fog line, on blind corners. This is generally cleaner than the edge or middle of the lane if there is gravel. If road is clear, you can dive deeper toward the edge.

6. Always leave some extra wiggle room, EVERY corner you should plan on and have the skill and reserve, to exit at the INSIDE of the corner. (the fog line RH, the center in LH). Drifting wide is easy, should an obstacle be in my path, tightening up causes people problems. Also get comfortable running LH turns around the outside, near the shoulder, if they are blind. Many people fear the edge of the road, when the danger YOU can't control is usually in the other lane.

7. LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO! It is a mantra I repeat to myself over and over in the twisties.

8. Look ahead, looking 30 feet in front doesn't do anything but make you do the wrong thing (jerk the bars). I am usually looking at the next corner. If good sight lines exist, I an setting up for the next, before I straighten up from the one I am in. It is a lot like a game of pool, every corner exit should position you for the next entry.

9. RELAX, loose on the bars, let the bike do its thing, it is better than most riders. I also slow down in the straight sections many times, less chance of LEO issues, plus gives you a second to recharge for the next bunch of fun.

On all turns, a blind turn especially, it would not matter is someone was half in my lane, as I am NOT using that part of the road, I am using the inside on rights, and, if blind the outside on lefts, and realistically I only need about a foot of pavement or less when I an leaned over to get by. AND I don't need to adjust my line, just keep doing what I planned on doing in the first place.

That is just a few of the major things, best thing get to a track day, practicing on the street is dangerous and hard, the track lets you improve what you did in a corner EVERY lap, the street requires constant adjustment.

Then you can do this to a Pilot Road2 in 2700 miles and 10 days of street riding!

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23236&stc=1&d=1273028367

[pffog]

..........................
A funny thing happens to me when I wick it up, my focus and concentration goes up accordingly. In some regards I’m safer and more on my game at speed. I wish I could say I have the same focus at moderate paces, but I don’t. It is important to note that I know myself well enough to be able to tell rather quickly if I’m on my game” at that moment. If I’m not, I back way off.

I have one other technique that helps. I ride the straights at moderate speeds and carry that speed into the corners. I don’t hammer out of turns or need to brake heavily setting up my turns. That is why I can ride a BMW that only has about 100hp, it is about the turns for me, not the straights...................

We must be related somehow, excellent points as well

[EXR911]

For a great many years now, I have followed the "Limit Point" system of determining cornering speed and position when confronted with a corner which is "blind" to a greater or lesser extent. I think there are lots of examples of this on the "Net" especially on YouTube - Google Limit Point Riding or Limit Point Driving. It seems to be a British term and the videos are almost invariably from that country.

I also try to be more careful in areas where the sides of the road are heavily wooded, have hidden entrances and such other features which would allow obstacles (animals, wild animals, hikers, cyclists, farm equipment, and such) which may suddenly come into the roadway between the "Limit Point" of my vision of a clear road ahead.

I also have gone to using "Late Apex" cornering which is not as "smooth" (at least the way I do it) as "sweeping". And the old "slow in - fast out" approach.

As Satchel Paige is reputed to have said, "No sense hurrying to meet trouble." I concluded long ago that trouble on the road is usually hiding round the bend where you can't see. it.

PT9766

[Rad]

I concluded long ago that trouble on the road is usually hiding round the bend where you can't see. it.

PT9766

I understand your comment.

I will say that for me, I would rather be on the nastiest twisty two lane road and take my chances with what’s around the next curve than be on the straightest multi lane highway in traffic and face the risks from the only creature I have found to be more unpredictable than a deer, car drivers!

[EXR911]

I understand your comment.

I will say that for me, I would rather be on the nastiest twisty two lane road and take my chances with what’s around the next curve than be on the straightest multi lane highway in traffic and face the risks from the only creature I have found to be more unpredictable than a deer, car drivers!

Well, yes, But - on the multi-lane the traffic is usually all in one general direction. On the curving two lanes around here the oncoming traffic, be it humans in cars or trucks, or on motorcycles, or in packs of recreational bike racers/tourers is too often taking "its half of the road out of the middle".

A careful rider friend of mine, well into the right side of a narrow right hand curving 2 lane suddenly found an oncoming minivan come barrelling around completely on the wrong side. Bike took to the right hand paved gutter and the front end of the minivan hit the bike just at the rear shock absorber a couple of inches from the rider's leg. Rider pretty well recovered from being thrown off but never was able to go on long rally rides after that.

Just as many - if not more "Road Idiots" on the scenic routes as on the 4 lanes, as far as I can tell. I like to ride old motorcycles and d---ed if I want to let some punk deny me the ability to do so.

PT9766

[Rad]

....................Just as many - if not more "Road Idiots" on the scenic routes as on the 4 lanes, as far as I can tell. I like to ride old motorcycles and d---ed if I want to let some punk deny me the ability to do so.
PT9766

I guess we each get to pick our poison:D

[Mike_Philippens]

the front wheel hit the rock, the bike wobbled a little, and that was end of story. no nothing. no problem, no drama.
BMW HANDLING. that's where the extra money went. that was a R100/7.
When something like that happens, you're amazed how stable a bike actually is. I did an advanced driving course and they let you do several things to make you aware of the stability of the bike. If you know that, you know that you don't have to freak out when you see a pothole that your can't seem to avoid or gravel in a corner.

As part of the course, we had to do gymnastics on the bike, go over a car tyre and over a wooden plank, screwed down on the track diagonal on your driving direction. You had to cross it without hands on the handlebars. It's scary at first, but the bike goes over it with ease.

I can go fast if I like, with the pegs over the road surface, but I rarely do that. I don't see the need and I like to enjoy the scenery. Also, I think that when you go for the limit all the time (ie using all of your tyre) your margin for error is marginal. When something happens, correcting is harder. By just going a little slower, you can easily survive gravel or other debris on the road. As long as it's a little bit. You also have more time to spot problems and to react.

I'm not saying that people who drive fast are bound to have accidents. It's just my own policy which keeps me in the saddle for a lot of years allready. Public roads are not suitable for driving on the limit since you never know if there's road damage, debris or some nut coming from the other direction taking the corner a little wide.

[ANDYVH]

For the most part I agree with all the other posts. Over the past 15 years of riding my 94 RS I have by practice developed many skills that allow me to use a lot of my tires and be quick and smooth. Now, programs like Total Control and the MSF ARC address many of the techniques leading up to the ability to be both smooth and quick through the turns. To me, quick and smooth have to be related to each other to be a good rider. Just "fast" alone is a crash waiting to happen.

Visual control is the biggest part of quick smooth riding. Without knowing, how to look, where to look, what to look for, and how to manage your visual control over your riding, you'll never have the ability to be quick and smooth. Visual first. That even includes terrain reading WELL before the turns, reading tree lines, reading slopes (both the road and terrain next to the road), reading the road surface for a LOT more than clean or dirty, but also for slope, camber, crown, texture, material, etc.

That all ties into traction management. If you can read and detemine the traction, then you can rely on what the tires are capable of. Next is trust, in the tires and grip and in yourself. The bike will almost always do what is possible to make the turn, but the RIDER ALWAYS limits what the bike produces. With trust in what the bike can do you can build the trust in yourself to get more from the bike. Eventually, over some years of practice I found I was able to at times, touch down the footpegs or centerstand and still feel totally in control.

Trail braking is an experienced level technique of using the brakes (not just the front or rear) to cause the bike to turn in a bit quicker. BUT! Trail braking first requires the other aspects of visual control, road reading and traction control before using the brakes to set the bike into a quicker turning mode, because trail braking must be blended into the turning and blended off as the throttle is applied while turning. The whole idea of trail braking is to "set" the suspension and chassis in a way to cause the least transition of chassis loading from decel into a turn into to accelerate out of a turn. It is an advanced technique for sure, and one which I doubt I do much of, really.

[BCKRIDER]

Wow! The posts so far give us all a lot of "food for thought."

I'd like to rephrase the original question: "On a blind curvy road, can you stop within your sight distance?" If so, do you count seconds to the point of "visual termination" to determine if you are too fast? Seems to me that sight distance, if you believe gravel, etc. will not be a problem, is more often the fact that should limit our speeds in the twisties. If you do impose this limitation on yourself, how do you practice it?

Just to be clear, I don't think the folks who CONSISTENLY wear out the edges of there tires first are riding more "dangerously" than those of us who don't. I'd just like to know how they do it. And how they deal with the hazards. They have valuable information we all can use, whatever our chosen speed.

[pffog]

.....................
I'd like to rephrase the original question: "On a blind curvy road, can you stop within your sight distance?"

I can't guarantee, I can stop if a hazard (deer, opposing traffic, dog, someone switching lanes, a muffler laying in the road, hidden by the truck I was following; that loose bail of hay/couch/sheet of plywood/washing machine/matress strapped to the truck/roof etc, etc ) on straight level road either. But when I see these hazards, I adjust accordingly.

I don't run as fast on roads with lots of traffic/driveways/known high deer areas/gravel in random corners/after a heavy rain/ after a high wind etc. But I try to give myself as much cushion as possible. One post talked about reading the road/corner, this is VERY important. The fact that ABS is on so many cars took away one of the "signs" of a deceptive corner, as you don't see the skid marks anymore, but you do see the dented guardrails, the scrapes in the road from the wheel chocks the tow truck used when pulling cars out of the dung weeds, the dung weeds mowed down by frequent out of control cars, the scars in trees etc. There are THOUSANDS of clues, but they are just that, clues. Again, you adjust to your comfortable risk level. But we are ALWAYS going to be at higher risk than a cage.



If so, do you count seconds to the point of "visual termination" to determine if you are too fast? Seems to me that sight distance, if you believe gravel, etc. will not be a problem, is more often the fact that should limit our speeds in the twisties. If you do impose this limitation on yourself, how do you practice it?
...................................

I don't count, as there are too many other things to evaluate. If you used that criteria, one would not be able to go over 5 mph in a lot of blind corners, and risk getting mowed over from behind.

Again, you adjust to your comfortable risk level. But we are ALWAYS going to be at higher risk than a cage. Practicing risk reduction through paying attention is all you can do, risk will never be eliminated.

[SugarHillCTD]

Do a track day. :thumb

[EXR911]

Wow! The posts so far give us all a lot of "food for thought."

I'd like to rephrase the original question: "On a blind curvy road, can you stop within your sight distance?" If so, do you count seconds to the point of "visual termination" to determine if you are too fast? Seems to me that sight distance, if you believe gravel, etc. will not be a problem, is more often the fact that should limit our speeds in the twisties. If you do impose this limitation on yourself, how do you practice it?
.

Riding by the "Limit point" system when you know the stopping capabilities of you and your bike from various speeds will do this automatically.

PT9766

[PGlaves]

These are just my opinions. Sight distance is the limiting factor in my riding. The bike and tires are far more capable than I am. When I am down here in the Texas Big Bend I can ride a curve with a given geometry much faster than I can/will ride a curve with the same geometry in the Arkansas Ozarks or West Virginia hills. The reason is that the prickly pear and creosote bushes are much less an impediment through the curve.

I still have chicken strips (Voni calls them margins for error) on my tires even riding around here but sight distance through the curve is seldom the limiting factor. The 70 mph speed limit is more of a limitation even on curves that I might ride at 30 or 40 when the roadway is lined with trees/woods.

Many folks who do wear tires to the edges solve the gravel in the road issue by being very familiar with the road beacuse they ride it every day.

[RoboRider]

That, and in my case, low side in the gravel, slide 20 feet or so, pick up the bike, weld the foot peg, pop some Advil, and keep on going.

[AKsuited]

I forgot, you said, "safe". As we taught in the previous MSF curriculum, the definition of “safe” is, absence of risk…It ain’t going to happen.

My definition of safety is "managing risk." To do that you must first actively identify risks as you encounter them. You can't manage a risk you are unaware of. Managing risks on a very curvy road includes acknowledging that "you must be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear," a quote from the Motorcycle Roadcraft book from the UK. It's about sight distance, the term we use in highway design.

Ride anyway you like, just be aware of the risks. On curvy roads, limited sight distance is one of the more important ones.

The MSF rider course helps a rider deal with what to do when he encounters a manure-spreader/farm tractor around that next bend.

Harry

[ANDYVH]

This is how vision relates to quick efficient riding, as quoted, "On a blind curvy road, can you stop within your sight distance?" If so, do you count seconds to the point of "visual termination" to determine if you are too fast?

"If you do impose this limitation on yourself, how do you practice it?" You can practice the count be doing it at various speeds during those more quiet times of riding. It helps you develop that mental memory sense of your speed without using the speedometer. Use the sound of the engine, the vibes of the ride, and count "one thousand one, one thousand two,...." and eventually you'll develop a sixth sense for speed.

"Just to be clear, I don't think the folks who CONSISTENLY wear out the edges of there tires first are riding more "dangerously" than those of us who don't." Very true. Granted, those that use the tires to the edges are (hopefully) accepting the risk of being closer to the traction limits and are willing to accept the responsibilities of their choices. It is though, a level of riding that is a developed skill and doesn't just happen. I'd start by taking the MSF ARC, or the Lee Park's Total Control program, and then maybe attend a track day.

[ozbarron]

Maybe it was this thread alone, maybe the sum total of things I've been reading recently, but yesterday, after dealing with some 'stuff', I got out on the bike for the first fun ride in awhile. Not a long one, couple of hours down some amazing back roads here in california, and it was the best ride I"d had in a long time. Kept the revs up, thought "smooooooth" the whole time, played with late apex turns, didn't touch the brakes at all on some nice, back road, through the vineyards kind of twisties.

I felt reconnected to the "Big Girl" (What I call the GS) in a way I hadn't since we'd crossed the country together in 2009. So, thanks to all for the great info.

[pffog]

......................and it was the best ride I"d had in a long time. Kept the revs up, thought "smooooooth" the whole time, played with late apex turns, didn't touch the brakes at all on some nice, back road, through the vineyards kind of twisties....................................


No you have SMOOTH in your toolbox, add LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO, and KEEP EYES UP and AHEAD. All accentuate the smooth, and pretty soon you will be riding faster without trying.

[criminaldesign]

Do a track day. :thumb

I whole heartily agree, probably THE best thing I did for my riding perception.

[pffog]

I whole heartily agree, probably THE best thing I did for my riding perception.


++++3 on track days.

[103979]

I generally have no discernible chicken strips on the rear tire of my R1200 RT. I love to run the twists, though its 450 miles to deals gap from my house in Indiana I have run the dragon about 130 trips.

One of the commenters seemed proud that he ran the dragon without using his brakes. While this is an accomplishment, I strongly believe that if you don't brake lightly going into a turn, you won't know how. When a hazard appears you can slow the bike much quicker if you already are on the brakes. Light trail braking transitioning to throttle as you turn in takes a lot of practice but it is the smoothest way to ride especially with a shaft drive bike with ample driveline lash.

Several have described late apexing of turns especially blind turns. I do this all the time, again if you don't practice it you can't do it well just because you are riding the dragon.
Those who execute late apex turns on the road are much more likely to use all the tire right to the edge. You actually turn in twice when executing late apex technique. You take a wide line (right side of lane in left turn or left side of lane in left turn) This makes the turn radius bigger, you can lean less as a given speed around any turn if you take a wider radius. Once you can see you way out of the turn, and can see there is no hazard in your lane, thats when you execute the apex by turning in harder. This is when you can lean the bike to its limits and gas out of the turn sooner than the bike that just follows the road. So while you lean over farther when late apexing turns, you do it for a shorter distance than if you just follow the curve of the road.

The beauty, and increased safety of late apexing is that:
1. you never are committed to do it until you can see that the road surface is safe and their is no oncoming or slow traffic in your lane.
2. If there is a hazard you simply don't have to execute the sharper turn in to the apex. 3. You are much less likely to outrun your braking distance as you are taking the widest practical radius until you see the turn open up allowing you to feather the brakes if necessary to avoid a hazard.
4. Your line of site of the road will always be farther with the wide radius.
5.You never execute the extreme lean angle until the blind
turn is no longer blind.
6. Last you will not run over the center line on those right turn switchbacks or run of the road on the left turn switchbacks.
That's a lot of reasons to practice late apexing, but you can also:
7. brag about how narrow your chicken strips are, if you have any.

Take training, read Proficient Motorcycling, and practice/use the techniques all the time.

[ANDYVH]

SMOOTH to me is the key. Smooth and consistent tire loading and chassis attitude. Meaning, no excessive pitching/diving by clamping on the brakes to the point you feel the steering geometry alter because of fork dive. Smooth to the point that using a slightly higher gear through the twisties (let that engine sing) gives better responsiveness and also more effective engine braking. It allows you to blend down the speed by rolling the throttle down.

Late apexing gives you the better view of the turn and more of the turn to work with. Reading the terrain and trees/vegetation/grades before you get to the turn helps set you up for the late apexing.

These are skills I developed over time and practice, and by following others that I already knew where consistent, smooth and quick through the twisties. Now when I read articles by David Hough, Lee Parks, and others who advocate smooth, higher gear, late apexing it all comes together to a riding style that is easier overall and more engaging than simply following the road.

[Walking Eagle]

If any of you have ridden on the seat behind Reg Pridmore (or other Aces) -- You now know what smooth is. The first time I did this a few years ago, Reg was then riding a K1100RS (not a slick-shifting Honda VFR), and you could NOT feel a single shift, up or down. (Jason is the same, a clone of his dad.) BTW, these guys are also much faster than you can believe, too! Think there's a connection between "smooth" and "fast?" Right. You got it.

Walking Eagle

[26667]

http://www.totalridertech.com/
And yes, I've ridden behind Jason, Rego's son at CLASS, and loved the whole day, but have to honestly say that for me, IMHO, as they say, if I I had first been thru Total Rider Tech, it would have made Reg's CLASS far more useful. If you're asking the kind of Q's that I think you're asking, you might well be in the same category of rider that I was/am. Hope it's helpful.