Four finger braking?

[BCKRIDER]

I'm really curious why Greenwald (November ON Motosafe article) and other MSF coaches are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders with normal finger strength and decent front brakes. Surely they know they know that a number of authors (David Hough, Ken Condon and Lee Parks in my library) strongly recommend using TWO fingers on the front brake lever, both for smoothness in transitioning between throttle and brake and also reduced time in getting on the brake.

Assuming you can bring your front tire to the point of sliding (or activating the ABS) on dry pavement with two fingers, is there another reason for using four fingers that I and the above authors have missed? This is real question. No intention to "flame" anyone.

The "two finger" folks put forth very cogent arguments for their position. The "four finger" people need to do the same. And here is your opportunity.

[roy]

The reasons I teach four fingers are:

If something goes wrong with your brakes and you need to sqeeze the lever closer to the bars your other two fingers are not in the way.

Not all bikes have dual front disk brakes so the extra sqeeze power may be required.

Mostly to develop the habit so when the need arises your fingers are in position.
Same applies for the clutch, may only need one or two fingers but I recommend use all you have for both controls.

Roy

[PGlaves]

Square pegs, round holes. But the pegs have to go in the holes.

I always try to use enough fingers to stop in the distance I have. That varies among my three bikes. My single disk F650 takes more lever pressure than my R1150R, for example. Beyond that, pronouncements are merely dogma.

[EXR911]

I'm really curious why Greenwald (November ON Motosafe article) and other MSF coaches are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders with normal finger strength and decent front brakes. Surely they know they know that a number of authors (David Hough, Ken Condon and Lee Parks in my library) strongly recommend using TWO fingers on the front brake lever, both for smoothness in transitioning between throttle and brake and also reduced time in getting on the brake.

Assuming you can bring your front tire to the point of sliding (or activating the ABS) on dry pavement with two fingers, is there another reason for using four fingers that I and the above authors have missed? This is real question. No intention to "flame" anyone.

The "two finger" folks put forth very cogent arguments for their position. The "four finger" people need to do the same. And here is your opportunity.

It is my impression that the MSF courses must be teaching it this way (and MSF must require it to be taught this way) and so it is drummed into MSF instructors that it is "the way". I have seen a number of justification reasons for this 4-fingers-only policy from several people including Mr. Greenwald and it turns up in the "Motosafe" column whenever hand control discussion arises from other writers. These reasons, as Ms. S Twain warbles, "Don't Impress Me Much".

I don't have ABS on my bike(s) so I am not interested in intentionally bringing my bike tires "to the point of sliding". I normally use two or three fingers on the front brake, reserving the thumb and index finger for fine throttle control. With my heavier clutched bikes, I use four fingers of the left hand to pull the lever in. I keep the front brake lever adjusted so as to prevent the possibility of the lever trapping any fingers against the throttle drum. (All my bikes have quickly adjustable -without tools- front brake set-ups.)

I think that there are a good many much more important things to discuss about safe riding and motorcycle safety than this nit-picking over how the controls "must" be held and operated.

Unfortunately, "Motosafe" shies away from any substantial discussion of these more significant and important things and issues.

PT9766

[marchyman]

The reasons I teach four fingers...

I think I'd teach four fingers, too, to keep things less complicated to a new rider. But that wasn't the question. It's this part....

are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders

... the experienced riders part. I fit my braking style to the bike I'm riding. I've not found a one-size-fit-all solution to be best.

[henzilla]

Consistent teaching methods... even though one style does not fit all. In basic education, it prob works as beginners need basic skills and instruction...Keep It Simple Seymour

But in real life, do what works for particular bike and style...personally my pinkie fingers rarely reach the levers anyways...both from many years of construction and tool pulling...it just doesn't bend like it used to:dunno
Most bikes I two finger...some three. I have yet to have to really grab that big handful. As mentioned, I am still using part of my hand on throttle control.

[BuddingGeezer]

I would use 4 fingers, but I only got 3 3/4.:laugh

Ralph Sims

[jopars]

Four fingered (i.e. whole hand) braking has 2 specific advantages, over and above the amount of force which can be brought to bear;

- If the braking is excessive and the bike goes down, say due to front wheel lockup, there are no fingers under the brake lever to be broken when/if the bars hit the ground or other obstacle.

- It is possible, especially for neophytes, to roll on the throttle somewhat when applying front brake. This can be so pronounced, that the resultant acceleration can delay or completely negate any braking from the application of the lever. With whole hand braking, the whole hand can be "rolled" onto the lever, thereby positively shutting the throttle at the same time. This is more difficult or impossible with less than whole hand braking.

Now, both of these scenarios may have less relevance for experienced riders, and so the dogmatic approach to teaching one method or another is at odds with individual realities. It's one of the reasons I stopped instructing, especially specific, prescribed methods and programs.

FWIW, I generally use whole hand braking, but often use one or two fingers if/when circumstances permit or favor it. YMMV

JP

[Sit]

Muslce memory. When the time comes that I need every last ounce of braking power, I don't want hesitation in my mind as it figures out if the situation is a two finger, three finger, or four finger stop. No matter what bike I am on, my bike, new bike, old bike or borrowed bike, my hand will always have full power available to it. Would suck to loose concentration for a second and forget that you are on your classic bike with drum brakes as you two finger it into the back of the car stopped in front of you.

But hey, to each his own, I'm just hoping this snow crap melts, I need a fix.:bikes

[98lee]

I would use 4 fingers, but I only got 3 3/4.:laugh

Ralph Sims

You must be a shop teacher.:stick




:dance:dance:dance

[SugarHillCTD]

You must be a shop teacher.:stick

OUCH.


I tend to always use the same muscle memory for all hand braking- mountain bike tandem or motorcycle- two fingers. Always have index and middle fingers on the levers. In a (motorcycle) panic stop or (MTB tandem) rough downhill singletrack, I don't want to have the delay of moving fingers to the lever- so I always have two fingers covering the handlebar levers.

John

[BuddingGeezer]

You must be a shop teacher.:stick




:dance:dance:dance

Nope, I was helping some football coaches assemble a blocking sled, got the middle finger of my right hand in a pinch point, a coach hit the sled and cut the end of my finger off below the fingernail above the knuckle, slick as a whistle.

Ralph Sims

[BCKRIDER]

As the OP, I would like to thank all of you for your replies. To summarize:

1. If you ride only one bike and can get maximum front braking with two fingers (for most this is the index and third fingers) that is the way to go. You can cover the brake in traffic or other dicey situations, reducing the reaction time in getting on the brake. You can also much more smoothly transition between slowing and accellerating. Also, no worries about possibly holding the throttle open if your STOPPING procedure requires pulling in the clutch.

2. If you own (or rent or borrow) bikes with varying braking capability, as Paul Glaves pointed out, you may need to use more fingers on some. I think the point is to get in some stopping practice before you need it. I also have to admit I am not comfortable with this idea. I think having ONE set of practiced habits on ONE bike is your best bet. Clearly, there are many multible bike owners who can change their habits and ride safely. David Hough's accident though on a borrowed sport bike underscores the necessity of safe practice on an unfamiliar machine.

3. The moral is find an empty parking lot (or road) and practice increasingly hard stops at gradually increasing speeds. However many fingers you need to stop that bike as quickly as possible is the number of fingers you should use for the lightest braking in a corner. As so many have pointed out, what you do in an emergency is what you do regularly but with more emphasis.

[dwestly]

Four fingered (i.e. whole hand) braking has 2 specific advantages, over and above the amount of force which can be brought to bear;

- If the braking is excessive and the bike goes down, say due to front wheel lockup, there are no fingers under the brake lever to be broken when/if the bars hit the ground or other obstacle.

- It is possible, especially for neophytes, to roll on the throttle somewhat when applying front brake. This can be so pronounced, that the resultant acceleration can delay or completely negate any braking from the application of the lever. With whole hand braking, the whole hand can be "rolled" onto the lever, thereby positively shutting the throttle at the same time. This is more difficult or impossible with less than whole hand braking.

Now, both of these scenarios may have less relevance for experienced riders, and so the dogmatic approach to teaching one method or another is at odds with individual realities. It's one of the reasons I stopped instructing, especially specific, prescribed methods and programs.

FWIW, I generally use whole hand braking, but often use one or two fingers if/when circumstances permit or favor it. YMMV

JP

As an MSF RiderCoach, I can tell you that one of the main reasons we stress 4-finger braking in the basic course is to prevent accidental throttle opening during braking. New riders (and more than a few experienced ones) have a real tendency to try and ride wrist-up, causing unintentional throttle opening if they keep a finger(s) wrapped around the throttle during front brake application. This also happens with experienced dirt riders, who for obvious reasons have learned to manipulate brake/throttle while off-road. Once riders get past the basic course and get some time/experience on a bike, most tend to adjust their braking technique to fit their own style, bike requirements, etc.

On the other hand, it drives RiderCoaches crazy, as we have to continually adjust our own riding styles. When we do basic courses, we spend a lot of time demonstrating techniques and exercises to the students. As such, we have to make sure we are using 4 fingers on the brakes, using both brakes all the time, covering the clutch, etc. I have to do a serious mental mindshift when I get on the training bike during a course, particularly (as occasionally happens) when I've just come off a track day the day before, where I've been one-fingering the front brake lever, almost never using the back brake, and clutchless up-shifting my Ducati... :p

[pmdave]

The "four finger braking" mantra comes from a history of instructors (now "RiderCoaches") teaching novices to ride a bike. I don't recall the four-finger thing part of the actual curriculum, just something that instructors could pick up on to further intimidate a new rider. New riders are also admonished to never brake while leaned over. Since four finger braking doesn't make logical sense for all bikes, arguments have been created about pinched fingers, etc.

I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not.

My suggestion is that at some point a rider ought to move beyond novice techniques.

First, your "muscle memory" needs to be adjusted to the bike you are riding. I managed to cartwheel a borrowed Truimph Triple R end over end because when faced with the need for a quick slowdown my braking habits were way too powerful for the Triple R. (huge double front discs, short wheelbase, light rear end, and no ABS). I'm with Paul here. You need to have the correct habits for the motorcycle you're riding. Like tube socks, one size braking fits none.

Second, I believe in having the skill and habits to brake at any time, including while leaned into a curve--or even trail braking while leaning. That requires smooth transitions from throttle to brake, and from brake to throttle. And transitions require you to control the brake lever and throttle simultaneously. Unless you have a spare finger on your right hand, that means two-finger or three-finger braking.

Third, as (the late) Hugh Hurt reminded me a few years ago, the majority of crashes occur on straight level roads in daylight, with a good view of the road--where you don't predict a crash might happen. His point was to cover the front brake lever at all times. And if you are covering the lever, you'll need to control the throttle with one or two digits wrapped around the grip.

Of course, you can do whatever you prefer. After a presentation on braking a couple of years ago, a silver hair female responded that she found it too confusing to use her hand for braking as well as throttle, so she only braked with her foot, leaving her right hand to focus on the throttle. She was older than I and still alive, so who am I to argue with her technique?

pmdave

[B1Pilot]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I never touch my back brake on my RT... this was challenged by the 30yr harley bike cop MSF instructor at the mandatory advanced rider course on base.... that was until I showed him that standing on my pegs I could complete the stop better than any other bike there using only my right hand... Interestingly enough, I never seem to forget my back brake on my dirt bikes, and ride those with split fingers at all times... different bikes, different habit patterns.

habit patterns are of course important, until such time that the technology obviates them or makes them less helpful than need be.... similarly I, I never touch the rudder pedals in flight on my aircraft (something near impossible to do in any prop-driven aircraft). I would love to see some CFI tell me I "had to" use rudder pedals...

[BCKRIDER]

pmdave wrote "I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not."

Dave, I LOVE the alliteration! (Close contender to a humorous outdoor article a friend wrote; Bugging Big Bass Before Breakfast.) But I think this fanaticism is still alive and well.

And I think I even understand it in the BRC. Those "RiderCoaches" have a lot to communicate in a very limited amount of time. They have no knowledge of the bikes their students will soon be riding. I think "four finger braking" makes sense in this context.

What bothered me in Kevin Greenwald's "Motosafe" column in the November ON was that he was talking about experienced riders taking the ERC on their own bikes and said "...and usually only need minor admonishment to drop inefficencies, such as one or two finger braking..." I think there is a consensus here that on many (not all) street bikes, two finger braking is the most efficient way to control speed. While I can see the purpose of dogma on the BRC, I would think dialogue would be more appropriate for the ERC. Some people who take the ERC don't buy the books which might open their minds on a number of things about riding.

Please understand I respect Greenwald's much greater experience than mine on motorcycles - both miles and years. He also writes well. Wish he would share his considered view on this this thread.

[roy]

ERC Instructors. how many people do you see that don't use the front brake or use it very sparingly?

Reason I ask is that I have taken the ERC course twice and have noticed usually two or three riders in each group that was very lax with the use of the front brake and not very good with the rear either. During the quick stop exercises they would go at least 20 -30' farther than the people using both brakes.

Yes, as a BRC instructor I teach people to use all of their fingers on both controls. This is a Basic / Beginners riding course and we are doing our best to provide the students with as much information in a short time as possible. I can't speak for others but as an example: How would you explain to a new rider with very limited skils that it is better to use two fingers for this situation and possibly three fingers here and etc....

As experienced riders do what works for [B][U]you[U][B]. My technique is probably different than BCKrider who is different than...

Roy

[Greenwald]

pmdave wrote "I don't know whether the fabled four finger fanatiicsm is alive and well in the BRC curriculum, but I suspect not."

Dave, I LOVE the alliteration! (Close contender to a humorous outdoor article a friend wrote; Bugging Big Bass Before Breakfast.) But I think this fanaticism is still alive and well.

And I think I even understand it in the BRC. Those "RiderCoaches" have a lot to communicate in a very limited amount of time. They have no knowledge of the bikes their students will soon be riding. I think "four finger braking" makes sense in this context.

What bothered me in Kevin Greenwald's "Motosafe" column in the November ON was that he was talking about experienced riders taking the ERC on their own bikes and said "...and usually only need minor admonishment to drop inefficencies, such as one or two finger braking..." I think there is a consensus here that on many (not all) street bikes, two finger braking is the most efficient way to control speed. While I can see the purpose of dogma on the BRC, I would think dialogue would be more appropriate for the ERC. Some people who take the ERC don't buy the books which might open their minds on a number of things about riding.

Please understand I respect Greenwald's much greater experience than mine on motorcycles - both miles and years. He also writes well. Wish he would share his considered view on this this thread.

As the original poster, I suppose I owe you some sort of a response. After all, I think you were genuinely interested in the logic of consistent braking habits, and I have never been one to restrict debate - to the contrary, I encourage it, which is why I penned that guest article in MotoSafe (which by the way, went national on other venues and is now referenced on some military bases - actually had to grant my 'release' for that).

But you were forgivingly naive to have tossed in "No intention to 'flame' anyone."

Understanding human nature from the perspective of 30+years in the trenches of society (some call it Law Enforcement), we don't all metabolize advice the same way, and I knew by the end of the day your innocent challenge would morph into a target on my back, so I stayed in the bleechers to merely observe.

Only a couple of posts into your thread, my training philosophy was given the derogatory label of "dogma."

Further on, the MSF was again 'demonized' as out of touch and draconic in their thinking, as if all us MSF RiderCoaches are goose-stepping robots.

Brake any way you want - there are no experts - especially with anecdotal observations that little old ladies who only rear-brake and are still around is somehow a relevant contribution to a rather serious skills discussion.

I appreciate your intent (and the comments you directed towards me) and will continue to contribute (or step into the crosshairs) when I am sufficiently motivated.

I'll just keep a fire extinquisher a bit closer for however long it takes to eventually get 'flamed' - comes with the territory. Besides, bleechers get boring after a while!

Ride Safe! :wave

[Clay]

I remember going round for round with Ray Ochs of MSF concerning the 4-finger vs. 2-finger technique...finally after many emails I got him to allow the students or I should say customers to try 2 and 4 finger braking during that braking exercise portion and then ask them of their thoughts...

[pmdave]

My hat's off to anyone who spends their valuable time as an instructor or RiderCoach. Certainly there is a need for better skills and habits. I cringe at the memory of many events where hundreds/thousands of riders demonstrate their ignorance and lack of skill. If I come across as harsh about how instructors/coaches act, it's from a number of years of association and observation, but in no way do I wish to degrade any of you.

However, let's note that the MSF "Experienced RiderCourse" is really the Basic RiderCourse retuned slightly so it can be ridden on your own bike. What is meant by "Experienced" is someone who learned to ride but hasn't yet taken a formal training course. In most states, it would be naive to assume someone who has been riding for a couple of years would take a "basic" course--although it probably wouldn't hurt them. Today's ERC is similar to the old Better Biking Program of yesteryear, when the term "advanced rider" was code for someone who was way over their head.

The problem I see with today's version of the ERC Suite is that riders who really are experienced tend to be beyond the ERC curriculum. Yet the track schools are too intense and not focused enough on street survival tactics. So, a rider with many years of experience thinks, "maybe I should take the course for experienced riders, and see if I have some skills that need honing, or perhaps some bad habits to fix." The ERC probably hits the mark for those "advanced" riders, but IMHO it's not as useful for a truly experienced rider as it is hawked to be.

I like the TEAM Oregon approach, where they look at the statistics and then design a course to answer the problems. For example, TEAM Oregon has noticed that they have a large percentage of motorcyclists who have never gotten endorsed, and unendorsed riders are over-represented in serious crashes. So, they have a one-day course (run on a go-cart track, I understand) that gives the experienced-but-unlicensed rider some tips on cornering, braking, etc. and results in a completion card good as a license test waiver. The rider gets some coaching without a lot of BS, picks up some potentially life-saving techniques, and gets to ride legally.

pmdave

[Greenwald]

My hat's off to anyone who spends their valuable time as an instructor or RiderCoach. Certainly there is a need for better skills and habits. I cringe at the memory of many events where hundreds/thousands of riders demonstrate their ignorance and lack of skill. If I come across as harsh about how instructors/coaches act, it's from a number of years of association and observation, but in no way do I wish to degrade any of you.

However, let's note that the MSF "Experienced RiderCourse" is really the Basic RiderCourse retuned slightly so it can be ridden on your own bike. What is meant by "Experienced" is someone who learned to ride but hasn't yet taken a formal training course. In most states, it would be naive to assume someone who has been riding for a couple of years would take a "basic" course--although it probably wouldn't hurt them. Today's ERC is similar to the old Better Biking Program of yesteryear, when the term "advanced rider" was code for someone who was way over their head.

The problem I see with today's version of the ERC Suite is that riders who really are experienced tend to be beyond the ERC curriculum. Yet the track schools are too intense and not focused enough on street survival tactics. So, a rider with many years of experience thinks, "maybe I should take the course for experienced riders, and see if I have some skills that need honing, or perhaps some bad habits to fix." The ERC probably hits the mark for those "advanced" riders, but IMHO it's not as useful for a truly experienced rider as it is hawked to be.

I like the TEAM Oregon approach, where they look at the statistics and then design a course to answer the problems. For example, TEAM Oregon has noticed that they have a large percentage of motorcyclists who have never gotten endorsed, and unendorsed riders are over-represented in serious crashes. So, they have a one-day course (run on a go-cart track, I understand) that gives the experienced-but-unlicensed rider some tips on cornering, braking, etc. and results in a completion card good as a license test waiver. The rider gets some coaching without a lot of BS, picks up some potentially life-saving techniques, and gets to ride legally.

pmdave

I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment of the current ERC. In past writings, I have oft referred to it as the "BRC on steroids."

I know if I were an 'experienced rider' (still struggling with that definition), I would be less than impressed with it - not a real challenge to what I already know - not a lot of 'growth' in skills or knowledge.

However, I am excited about the ARC (Advanced Rider Course) that the MSF is marketing. I took off my 'instructor hat' some months ago and became a student in that course for a full day, and came away marveling at how different it was from the ERC.

Real-world skills - a feeling that I had advanced my confidence and ability to control my motorcycle under stress.

I'd like to see an open-mind set on the ARC for the next year or two by a wide spectrum of riders - enough time and testing to decide if the re-tooling was a success - a plea for patience, if you will.

As for TEAM Oregon - truly a unique approach for that state. Duplicating something similar to that model another 49 times to be universal across the nation? Might prove a bit difficult, but that's no reason to walk away from the challenge.

I need to learn more about it - intriguing concept. :scratch

[pmdave]

I'm glad to see something to fill the gap between the BRC/ERC and track schools, for riders with a few years and a few hundred thousand miles under their tires. Please keep us informed about how the ARC turns out.

Yep on the struggle to define "Experienced." A rider who learned a year or two ago might think of himself or herself as "experienced." That may be why the "Hurt Report" showed riders at 2 years experience were slightly more dangerous than novices who just started riding. It's not just a matter of years, but of fate being benevolent while you get your trial-and-error learning.

And of course, we've all seen riders who have been in the saddle for years and years, but who still drag their bootskids, swerve across the centerline when making a right turn, enter blind turns in the right wheel track, deny that countersteering works, use the rear brake only, etc etc. I strongly believe that some riders survive on dumb luck rather than skill. And it would be nice to help them gain skill and knowledge.

Fortunately, we have the MOA Foundation now dealing wtih skills issues. My hope is that at future rallies, and in future ON articles, we can deal more successfully with techniques such as braking. So, thanks, Greenwald, for taking the effort, thus exposing your expertise to the blowtorch.

pmdave

[BCKRIDER]

If I understand the "expected decorum" of this Forum correctly, it is perfectly OK to disagree with or even attack ideas and positions. The reason for this is that we may all learn something.

What I have learned so far in this thread is that 1. There are modern bikes which require more than two fingers on the front brake lever. Good to know if I ever ride one. 2. There are modern bikes with MUCH more powerful front brakes than mine. Also good to know. 3. Some folks with several bikes "shift mental gears" and use the number of fingers required for that particular bike. 4. The ERC may be a disappointment for many experienced riders who both read and practice what they read. 5. There is new MSF Advanced Rider Course which I probably should take if it comes within riding distance.

Attacking an individual, I believe is (and should be) verboten on this Forum. And re-reading the thread, I don't see any comments attacking Greenwald. A number of posters (including RidingCoaches) seem to indicate that "four-finger braking" is still expected teaching in both the BRC and ERC, even if those RidingCoaches vary the number of fingers depending on the bike they are riding. That teaching IS dogma. It may well be a solid plan for beginners. It may also be a solid plan for "experienced" riders if they have had no instruction, never read a book on riding, maybe don't even have a license. My guess is that few members of BMW MOA are in those categories. I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column.

Greenwald, I am not planting a target on your back. I only know you by what I've read, but would guess you are a great guy and and a very competent rider. Care to share your comments on the above?

[Greenwald]

If I understand the "expected decorum" of this Forum correctly, it is perfectly OK to disagree with or even attack ideas and positions. The reason for this is that we may all learn something.

What I have learned so far in this thread is that 1. There are modern bikes which require more than two fingers on the front brake lever. Good to know if I ever ride one. 2. There are modern bikes with MUCH more powerful front brakes than mine. Also good to know. 3. Some folks with several bikes "shift mental gears" and use the number of fingers required for that particular bike. 4. The ERC may be a disappointment for many experienced riders who both read and practice what they read. 5. There is new MSF Advanced Rider Course which I probably should take if it comes within riding distance.

Attacking an individual, I believe is (and should be) verboten on this Forum. And re-reading the thread, I don't see any comments attacking Greenwald. A number of posters (including RidingCoaches) seem to indicate that "four-finger braking" is still expected teaching in both the BRC and ERC, even if those RidingCoaches vary the number of fingers depending on the bike they are riding. That teaching IS dogma. It may well be a solid plan for beginners. It may also be a solid plan for "experienced" riders if they have had no instruction, never read a book on riding, maybe don't even have a license. My guess is that few members of BMW MOA are in those categories. I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column.

Greenwald, I am not planting a target on your back. I only know you by what I've read, but would guess you are a great guy and and a very competent rider. Care to share your comments on the above?

Care to comment?! I probably shouldn't, but again, as the OP, you deserve some feedback.

First, some minor confusion. Your opening remarks on this latest post include "..it is perfectly OK to disagree..." and "The reason for this is that we may all learn something." Then you later state "I question placing that unequivitable opinion on braking in the Motosafe column." Sorry, but I can't tell if your signaling a 'left,' a 'right' or just have your hazard flashers on?!

As for the 'target on my back' paranoia, you had the best of intentions in your original inquiry, but if my 2,000 word article didn't come across convincingly, challenging me in this arena (the Forum) wasn't going to go well, and it didn't.

Finally, as for 'dogma,' - not the sort of term I would employ as a compliment, i.e. .......

Dogma : the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practioner or believers

"Sharing my expertise," as pmdave (David Hough) so graciously phrased it, of course comes with the expectation that there will be disagreement or debate (and there should be). You were not the one who got personal and harshly characterized my training experience as 'dogma' - stop apologizing for it.

Let's move on - aren't we overdue for an oil thread or helmet discussion?! :bikes

[gunnert]

I'll join in stating I'm a two finger rider ALL the time; whether on the Beemer or Vtwin. By all the time I mean two fingers rest on the brake lever and three fingers operate the throttle. I adapted to this riding style years ago while riding in heavy traffic. My logic being it saves the reaction time to move the hand from the throttle to the brake lever. On the Beemer I ride with custom levers, the brake lever shortened to accommodate two fingers and not cover the other three.
I appreciate the MSF courses as they have to teach a standard that will work for everyone.

[ANDYVH]

Ok, I gotta jump into the fray on this one, as an 18 year MSF instructor (who has also worked with Kevin Greenwald). This late in the post most of the comments already touch on the issues, being:
1. The BRC is a BASIC rider course, so we teach techniques that are broad based and easy to learn. The first part is learning good basic riding skills. Two finger braking WIHT throttle actuation is NOT a basic skill and is far more complex to teach, especially at the BRC level, and for the mix of riders we coach.
2. Four finger braking, again at the BRC level does minimize throttle action during braking. I have had SO many new rider students that attempt throttle and braking control at the same time, such that neither control is accurate and profficient. That control comes over time and miles.
3. Muscle memory and having all the potential braking when needed is a big one. I have had MANY students that never realized how much front brake they have and how effective it can be, when used properly with the rear brake. The rear brake is there mostly for bike stability in my opinion, but also why give up that last 30% of braking power?

Now, I have also taught many ERCs. Here I look mostly for braking capability and profficiency. If I see the rider does not acheive what is basic good braking skill with their techniques, then yes I will revert to four-finger basics and coach up from there. I have had many ERC students with what I consider marginal braking skills at best. Most all are surprised by how much MORE braking they can do when done right. In many cases, again depending on the rider, bike, strength, etc, four-finger braking results in the rider acheiving better braking skills. In both the ERC and BRC though, I'd say almost ALL riders simply brake to within their "comfort level" while never realizing how much they can really do with proper techniques. Many never pull that front brake lever back as much as it can, as quickly as they can, to get the full capability of braking. In that, I feel, many many riders get themselves in trouble when the BIG braking event does happen. Then, if the right techniques and capabilities were not trained, practiced and developed, we hear stories like "there was nothing I could do, I could never stop in time, hadda lay it down (BIGGEST lie in riding)."

Again, back to the BRC and basic skills, is why we teach four-finger braking. It is the basic skill we all can develop from. As skill and profficiency develop and increase the rider can find and learn what works best. But again, again, it comes down to learning the right techniques, training with those techniques, honing those skills far beyond your "comfort level of braking" and developing the skills until they are almost automatic for the moment. I myself mostly 4-finger brake, but I vary my techniques for the riding at hand. Sometimes its two-finger with simultaneous throttle control, such as trail braking. But that is NOT a basic skill in any measure.

[WooDmEn]

You will see this in the June MotoSAfe: Four fingers for stopping - four fingers working at 50% +/- effort provide more percisions than 2 fingers working at 100% +/-. That is the fundamental skill, and advianced skills are built atop the fundatmental skills. That said, consider four fingers for stopping, or potential stoppong events, i.e. dangersous intgersctions, etc.

Then, consider 2 ( or one or three) fingers for speed adjustments, such as downshhifting to set corner entry speed and other traffic events that call for speed reductions ath are NOT sopping events.

Not a big deal, but worth considering.

Wiles, MNotoSafe editor

[mneblett]

A thread back from the dead! :D

I ride with four fingers poised over the brake at all times for a reason not previously mentioned here:

Instantaneous readiness to apply the brake. A side advantage is that I don't have to worry or deal with a couple fingers behind the lever interfering with the lever squeeze or instinct causing me to delay the braking to get the fingers wrapped around the throttle clear.

Real world: Yes, it makes a difference in reaction time. In 30+ years of combat commuting in DC, I've had at least 3 events when someone did something stupid and the few milliseconds' advantage gained by having four fingers at the ready was the difference between a near miss and contact (i.e., literally down to inches).

I've heard the fine throttle control arguments for two-finger braking, but frankly I don't get that. I have excellent throttle control with four fingers on the brake lever -- in fact, I'd wager than it's better than some, especially when going over bumps, as rather than the suspension/body/arm movement causing minor throttle movements, having fingers resting on the lever provides a stable "reference" position that tends to minimize unintended throttle motions.

Full disclosure: I'm a former MSF instructor. I taught (and believed in) four fingers on the lever at all times. The difference between me and some others is that I believe it a good thing on the street for experienced riders, too -- i.e., not just something to improve throttle/brake control for novices on a range.

[Greenwald]

A thread back from the dead! :D

I ride with four fingers poised over the brake at all times for a reason not previously mentioned here:

Instantaneous readiness to apply the brake. A side advantage is that I don't have to worry or deal with a couple fingers behind the lever interfering with the lever squeeze or instinct causing me to delay the braking to the fingers wrapped around the throttle clear.

Real world: Yes, it makes a difference in reaction time. In 30+ years of combat commuting in DC, I've had at least 3 events when someone did something stupid and the few milliseconds' advantage gained by having four fingers at the ready was the difference between a near miss and contact (i.e., literally down to inches).

I've heard the fine throttle control arguments for two-finger braking, but frankly I don't get that. I have excellent throttle control with four fingers on the brake lever -- in fact, I'd wager than it's better than some, especially when going over bumps, as rather than the suspension/body/arm movement causing minor throttle movements, having fingers resting on the lever provides a stable "reference" position that tends to minimize unintended throttle motions.

Full disclosure: I'm a former MSF instructor. I taught (and believed in) four fingers on the lever at all times. The difference between me and some others is that I believe it a good thing on the street for experienced riders, too -- i.e., not just something to improve throttle/brake control for novices on a range.

Well said. 'Real-world' validation of four finger braking throughout all your motorcycling years - not just a 'beginner skill.'

It's a proven principle in the training arena that "When the sh## hits the fan, you don't 'rise' to the occasion - you sink to the level of your habits." You can't have two or three 'styles' of braking, dependant on your speed or location, and then expect your best performance (the superior grip and pressure of four fingers) when you need it most - during that split second of an emergency.

Problem is that's a hard sell in the real world, once poor/lazy braking habits have become routine and part of somone's riding comfort zone. That seamless transition of basic skills to life-long habits is the "Holy Grail" of the motorcycle training experience.

That said, it is unlikely you will change the minds of those who brake with two fingers - I've seen fanatical resistance to that in ERC's and on forums. Probably why I teach very few of them any more (I've chosen to do just three in 2012 at the 2 locations I instruct at).

I prefer to concentrate on new riders - clean slates if you will - need to "catch 'um while they're young" and impress upon them that 'basics' never change. Posture, head turns, combination braking, proper path of travel, etc. are constants at any level of experience for street riding.

Admittedly, off-road and track-riding techniques can be different - change the game and you get to change the rules.

But the streets will always be the streets.

Ride safe and often, Mark.

[racer7]

Having gotten my first bike years before there were mc endorsements or helmet laws and done some dirt racing in the early years and done way too many hours ($) on tracks with cars since I find that most of my street habits are what I think of as dumbed down or relaxed track / racing habits.

The first different skill a track teaches is vision- the need to see only what matters at speed because the brain cannot fully process everything otherwise (you'll get tunnel vision and be erratic as heck if you try). What one needs to see is different on the street but the principle applies (why we scan for danger) and the slow street speeds give one plenty of time to process if you're adapted to higher speeds. My riding/driving brain operates as a "track speed" processor out of habit so easily chips in a useful safety margin on the street.

The second different skill and the subject here is braking. Braking deep into corners and using a full panoply of thottle and brake skills (sometimes left foot braking plus throttle in a car) are an absolute necessity to fast times and protecting position. I can't forget this stuff all of a sudden and revert to only straight line braking, no trail braking, 4 fingers, etc on the street- I'd have to become a different person and I'm not all that schizo by nature...(How you train is how you react) Of course I don't press hard on public roads- that's inviting disaster if for no other reason than I don't have all those essential corner workers watching around blind turns and ready to throw the yellow....Once again, skills honed at higher speeds chip in a safety margin on the street. I haven't had to go full brakes at any time in a long while on the street. On the track full brakes (or close to full because tires have to be preserved) is common but only rarely involves a complete stop to zero....

I understand the dilemma for mc instructors- its not 1 on 1 semi custom instruction. And for sure newbs have a heck of a time using a brake hard enough period, let alone with 2 fingers (I used to also teach street skills in cars and never once had a novice apply brakes hard enough initally- they generally act like the pedal is made of eggshells). But my size 9 hands don't comfortably and quickly get 4 on the lever of my RT anyway- do all rest of you have size 11s, run the levers way close to the bars or what?

20 to 30 ft longer I'd believe- bad braking habits are very very common. But do they get a cert without fixing that???

[motorman587]

I'm really curious why Greenwald (November ON Motosafe article) and other MSF coaches are so adament about 4-finger braking for experienced riders with normal finger strength and decent front brakes. Surely they know they know that a number of authors (David Hough, Ken Condon and Lee Parks in my library) strongly recommend using TWO fingers on the front brake lever, both for smoothness in transitioning between throttle and brake and also reduced time in getting on the brake.

Assuming you can bring your front tire to the point of sliding (or activating the ABS) on dry pavement with two fingers, is there another reason for using four fingers that I and the above authors have missed? This is real question. No intention to "flame" anyone.

The "two finger" folks put forth very cogent arguments for their position. The "four finger" people need to do the same. And here is your opportunity.

I will add my .02$, if you want to read it. Been a Ridercoach since 1998 and a motor cop instructor since 1994. I like the four fingers on everything I use, lawnmower, screwdriver, and other "tools". What made me a believer is a school where we did hard stops at 60 mph, and I can tell you that the brake level went to the handle bar. So if I had my two fingers near the handle bar I would have never been able to come to a hard stop. I am also a beleiver that what you practice is what you do in a panic. Just remember MSF or any other school provide technics which you, the rider, has to find will work for you. The old saying, "more than one way to skin a cat". 2 or 4 fingers?? put it in that riding tool box and use what ever works for you.

[bikerfish1100]

you have finer control of the brake lever when using 4 fingers than when using only 2.

[RoboRider]

I prefer 4 but have a bad habit of using two. I think I need to tape my glove fingers together as a training aid. My reason is the "fingers pinched in the lever" which as happened to me.

[oldnslow]

Let me hijack this 2 year old thread with these comments. I see lots of talk about 2 or 4 fingers, but no mention of what I consider even more relevant; brake lever position. I see many of my friends just ride their bikes with the brake and clutch lever in what ever position it was in when they bought the bike, and that position is usually too high, IMO. One friend complained of her clutch arm getting sore in stop and go traffic. I checked her clutch perch location, and she had to rotate her wrist on the grip to grab the lever! We lowered the lever about 15 degrees, and like magic, no more sore arm.

For me, I set my street bikes up by lowering both levers, then sit naturally with fingers extended in a natural reach, then bring the levers up til they touch my fingers, then just a smidge more, and call it good.,

Sorry if I am preaching to the choir on this one.

[EXR911]

It is my impression that the MSF courses must be teaching it this way (and MSF must require it to be taught this way) and so it is drummed into MSF instructors that it is "the way". I have seen a number of justification reasons for this 4-fingers-only policy from several people including Mr. Greenwald and it turns up in the "Motosafe" column whenever hand control discussion arises from other writers. These reasons, as Ms. S. Twain warbles, "Don't Impress Me Much".

I don't have ABS on my bike(s) so I am not interested in intentionally bringing my bike tires "to the point of sliding". I normally use two or three fingers on the front brake, reserving the thumb and index finger for fine throttle control. With my heavier clutched bikes, I use four fingers of the left hand to pull the lever in. I keep the front brake lever adjusted so as to prevent the possibility of the lever trapping any fingers against the throttle drum. (All my bikes have quickly adjustable -without tools- front brake set-ups.)

I think that there are a good many much more important things to discuss about safe riding and motorcycle safety than this nit-picking over how the controls "must" be held and operated.

Unfortunately, "Motosafe" shies away from any substantial discussion of these more significant and important things and issues.

EXR911

I have tried all these various combinations of fingers again since the above post and my conclusion about the 4 or 2 finger contention has not altered from what is written above. I would only note that it reminds me of the old saw about something as being as useful "as re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".

EXR911

[BCKRIDER]

You will see this in the June MotoSAfe: Four fingers for stopping - four fingers working at 50% +/- effort provide more percisions than 2 fingers working at 100% +/-. That is the fundamental skill, and advianced skills are built atop the fundatmental skills. That said, consider four fingers for stopping, or potential stoppong events, i.e. dangersous intgersctions, etc.

Then, consider 2 ( or one or three) fingers for speed adjustments, such as downshhifting to set corner entry speed and other traffic events that call for speed reductions ath are NOT sopping events.

Not a big deal, but worth considering.

Wiles, MNotoSafe editor

As the OP, I too am glad to see this thread revived. What is completely clear, to me at least, is that there are a number of different methods which work well for different riders on the same bike; or one rider on different bikes.

Roger's suggestion that a rider might want to use a different number of fingers on a given bike - because he was planning to slow rather than stop - rings false to me. A "slow down" can occasionally turn into a "quick stop." If you need three or four fingers for a "quick stop" on a particular bike, that should be the same fingers you use to slow for a corner. Build in the habits you need when the worst case scenario occurs.

Spring is here; us northerners now have our bikes licenced. Find a parking lot or dead-end road and practice your "quick stops" with all the finger combinations mentioned. If you typically use some form of "throttle control," be sure to engage that too.

The only important answer to "how many fingers on the front break lever" is what works best for you on a given bike. And the only way to find that answer is to practice quick stops, trying different finger combinations in a safe environment.

[RoboRider]

....what I consider even more relevant; brake lever position.

It's off topic but spot on. I always adjust mine to a natural feel at the wrist, especially the clutch since that hand does not rotate.

[DakotaMike]

A rider should use as many fingers as feels comfortable for them on the machine they ride. To tell a rider to use 4 or 3 or 2 is a broad stroke of the brush. I have met two MSF instructors in the past few years and they are properly anal and OCD if you don't do it their way. Sorry, I'll ride safe within my limitations and knowlege and skills learned in the past 37 years, no one method is correct.

[ANDYVH]

I responded on this post early on, but a few quick refreshers:
1. MSF BRC is the beginner course, and it is FAR easier and less complicated to teach beginners good basic braking techniques using all four fingers. I've been teaching it that way as an MSF instructor near 20 years.
2. Beginners that try to use one or two fingers for braking while trying to maintain throttle control, find mastering either control much more difficult.
3. Four finger braking capability IS good to have, because some day you will need all your braking power/capability.
4. Most likely, your habits are your reaction, if you only do two finger braking, when the day comes you need ALL the braking power/capability you might come up short.
5. As braking skill and proficiency improve, it is actually more important that a rider develop, hone, and practice the technique that actually works best for them. That may be two finger or four finger. Myself, I use both depending of the riding. BUT I DO go out and practice my braking skills.

But I bet most riders never practice their braking skills, never develop a high capability at braking, and then apply the wrong technique or no technique when the vinyl pucker moment is upon them. To that, it may be easier to simply endorse four finger braking as the universal/easiest technique to master. But to say it is the ONLY way to braking is myopic at best.

Beyond the BRC, I coach riders to actually practice to find what skills really work for them, that they can master and efficiently use. Find what you can and can't do and adjust your technique, BUT practice it and perfect it. DO NOT just expect it to happen.

[marchyman]

3. Four finger braking capability IS good to have, because some day you will need all your braking power/capability.

That bit of wisdom comes up often. It sounds good, but may not be true. I've ridden a bike were I could lock the front wheel solid and/or trigger the ABS using no more than half of my maximum *one finger* effort. I did not like that bike. At the opposite extreme is my vintage bike where I sometimes wish for another 4 fingers on the brake lever. Of course that is about the time the brakes start fading so extra effort at that point wouldn't help much. My whizzy brake GS can trigger the ABS with not much effort using two fingers. Because I must also be prepared should the power assist fail I've the the lever out far enough that only 3 fingers reach. If I brought it in enough to use 4 fingers I'd be able to pull the lever all the way to the bar without applying full braking in a loss-of-power situation. That would not be a good thing.

My point is that the proper number of fingers depends upon the person and the bike. I get that teaching newbies to use 4 fingers is a good thing. That doesn't mean it is a good thing for all riders on all bikes all the time.