Tubed tires req'd for my R65?

[HERRBAYEMVAY]

I have a 1984 R65 with the stock "snowflake" wheels. When I needed a new rear tire last year, the parts guy at my BMW dealer said the stock wheels on the R65 could not accomodate a tubeless tire, so I got a Continental tire with a tube. I need another rear tire again (that Conty didn't give me more than 10k miles, a disappointment), and I'm wondering if I'm being told the truth about a tubed tire being necessary on the rear. I replaced my front tire last year (not at the dealer) with a tubeless, with no problems. So what's the deal? :confused:

[James.A]

This topic was covered last summer here on the forum. Bottom line, must use a tube with snowflake wheels.

[flash412]

So what's the deal?Liability. BMW recalled a bunch of snowflake wheels because of defects. Nobody at a BMW dealer wants you to have a "rapid de-inflation event" because a BMW wheel failed while you were riding on a tire they installed for you. Aftermarket guys don't care. I ran tubeless tires (without tubes) on a non-recall snowflake wheel on my race bike for a couple of years. Your life. Your money. Your choice.

If you are asking if it is ok to run tubeless-type tires on a tube-type wheel, with a tube, that is ALWAYS ok. Some manufacturers write on the sidewall, "Install tube for use with tube-type rim" (or something equivalent).

[pmdave]

Well, lessee, the big difference between "tube" and "tubeless" rims is that tube type rims have a tapered bead, and tubeless rims have a locking bead that holds the tire in place. Well, that and having rims that have holes in them (say for the spoke nipples)

So, let's say you install a tubeless tire on a wire spoked rim, with a tube to hold the air. Down the road, the tube gets a puncture, and the tire bead slips off the rim. Uh oh!

Or, let's say you install a tubeless tire on a snowflake wheel (with a tapered bead), the tire gets punctured, and the bead slips off the rim. Uh oh!

So, neither the wire spoked nor the snowflake wheels will hold either a tubed or tubeless tire in place once it gets deflated.

So, what's the point of installing a tube in a tubeless tire mounted on a snowflake wheel? If the tube deflates, the tire can still slip off the bead. What's more, a tube can rub against the comparatively rough inner surface of a tubeless tire, and chafe itself to death. The tubeless tire doesn't necessarily deflate just because the tube lets go. There's still air inside the tire even as the tube turns itself into a wad and slides around.

So, IMHO, go ahead and use a tubeless tire on a snowflake rim. The worst case scenario is no worse than with a tube tire on a wire wheel. BTW, you'll need to ream out the hole (for the tube stem) and install a tubeless valve instead.

pmdave

[Bigrider]

I thought the issue was more of one of wheel porosity. Snowflack wheels leak air. Just a thought.

D Hoover
Peyton, CO

[bikerfish1100]

IMHO- i'd run tubes on a snowflake. they are porous, and will leak mucho air compared to a tube, which will also leak air, but not as rapidly.
as for tires- run a Metzler ME33 Laser up front, with your choice of a ME 99 Perfect (mid-grade sport/tour), a ME 88 Marathon (touring, but will sport just fine) or a 55A Metronic (upper end sport-touring). 55 handles best, but i never had a problem pushing the 88 in the hills, and it gets the best life-mileage of the 3. that's my vote- and it's based on 200,000 BMW tube-type miles.

[James.A]

I am running a set of Dunlop 491 Elite that refuse to wear out. Not very sticky, but our quaint "little" airheads can't bust 'em loose anyway.

[lkchris]

Actually, no one has answered the original question.

The answer is ... the dealer is pulling your chain.

You MUST use tubes, but you can use them in a tubeless tire.

[lkchris]

I am running a set of Dunlop 491 Elite that refuse to wear out. Not very sticky, but our quaint "little" airheads can't bust 'em loose anyway.

Tell that to my friend in TX who fell just making a rt-angle turn on wet roads.

Tell that to "Andrew" who posted to the national Airheads list that his bike went out from under him just running straight and level on a wet interstate.

Be VERY careful with Dunlop 491s.

PS: Dunlop 491s are not made in sizes specified for Airheads.

[Fritzc]

Be VERY careful with Dunlop 491s.

PS: Dunlop 491s are not made in sizes specified for Airheads.

Huh? I've been running Dunlop 491's for 20 years on my airheads. :dunno

[lkchris]

Huh? I've been running Dunlop 491's for 20 years on my airheads. :dunno

But never 3.25X19 and 4.00X18, right. There are no metric equivalents.

[Fritzc]

My Tires: Dunlop 491 Elites

Front MM90-19 61H
Rear 120/90B 18 71H
What ever that means.

120 mm = 4.72 Inches
90 mm = 3.5 Inches

I just tell dealer what kind of bike I have and send the tires!!

Fritz

[flash412]

IMHO- i'd run tubes on a snowflake. they are porous, and will leak mucho air compared to a tube, which will also leak air, but not as rapidly.As someone who had tubeless tires on a snowflake wheel for several years, without a tube... I must say that the quoted statement has zero basis in fact. It it complete bovine scatology. PLEASE... solid aluminum is more porous than rubber? Got any bridges to sell with that?

Snowflake wheels were prone to cracking; hence the factory recall. Perhaps that was the start of this foolishness.

[Fritzc]

Hate to burst your bubble but "solid" cast aluminum is very much porous!
Since having acquaintance that is quality control mucky muck for an
Aluminum wheel making, restoring and testing company in Huntington Indiana, he assures me that Aluminum castings can be very porous or lesser so depending upon the cooling time and other factors during the manufacture of Cast aluminum wheels. That is why a sealer is put on the wheels and you should not use abrasive scouring pads to clean said wheels.
I'm no expert but I go fishing with experts and what else do you talk about when in a boat in Canada for hours on end. :clap :doh

[flash412]

Hate to burst your bubble but "solid" cast aluminum is very much porous!More than rubber? Ever blow up a toy ballon and leave it over night?

EVERYTHING is porous. ALL solids are made of molecules made of atoms. ALL atoms have more space than anything else. It is simply a question of degree.

More specifically, I left a snowflake wheel with a tubeless tire mounted (without a tube) for the better part of a year. There was certainly enough air pressure to wheel the bike around the garage without requiring topping up the pressure nearly a year later. To me, that means that even if aluminum IS porous, it sure as heck is NOT what I would consider "high maintenance" compared to a rubber inner tube. One does not have to add air even once a week to a snowflake run tubeless like with natural rubber tubed tires, which lose 2-4 psi per week. After all isn't THAT what the issue was?

[Fritzc]

Hate to burst your bubble but "solid" cast aluminum is very much porous!
Since having acquaintance that is quality control mucky muck for an
Aluminum wheel making, restoring and testing company in Huntington Indiana, he assures me that Aluminum castings can be very porous or lesser so depending upon the cooling time and other factors during the manufacture of Cast aluminum wheels. That is why a sealer is put on the wheels and you should not use abrasive scouring pads to clean said wheels.
I'm no expert but I go fishing with experts and what else do you talk about when in a boat in Canada for hours on end. :clap :doh

My point here was that SOME wheels may have more porosity than others due to poor quality control or different cooling times. :type

[flash412]

My point here was that SOME wheels may have more porosity than others due to poor quality control or different cooling times. Would those wheels not be called defective?

[Fritzc]

Would those wheels not be called defective?

I suppose. My point is that not all cast aluminum wheels are exactly the same regardless of what is and what is supposed to be. Maybe the quality control guy was on a coffee break when that wheel was made. I've worked in a factory and in spite of all measures taken to produce a quality product F___ ups happen. Point is, snowflake wheels are not intended nor designed to have tubless tires withoout tubes mounted on them. One guy says he has ridden snowflakes tubless for years and no problem. Another guy says no way. I drove 300 miles with a trailer on my car that was not properly hitched. My point is I was lucky, very very lucky. Am I going to do it again? Not if I can help it. Point is you cannot buy tube type tires. All tires made today are tubless type but on snowflakes you should mount them with a tube.
That is my opinion. End of discussion. It will come up again but no one is going to change my mind on the topic.

[lkchris]

Would those wheels not be called defective?

Not in the slightest, because they were not designed as tubeless wheels.

Despite all the discussion about "porosity," the fact remains the snowflake wheels are not suitable for mounting tires in a tubeless fashion, as the rim profile does not feature the usual ridges for retaining tubeless tires.

Usually the industry goes further in designating wheel types by the size of the hole drilled for the valve stem. That is, a tubeless valve stem will not fit this wheel without enlarging the hole--it's another clue to the clueless that you're about to do something wrong.

All BMWs that came from the factory with these wheels came with tubes installed ... and we all know how cheap factories are!

The instructions from any tire manufacturer regarding tubeless tires are always ... " on a tube-type wheel, use a tube."

[lkchris]

More on tubeless vs tubed tires.

For my RS, the tire manufacturers see fit to produce mainly tubeless tires, and that's what I'm (almost) forced to use.

Since in Germany, installation of equipment other than that designated by the manufacturer is illegal, availability of tube-type tires for Airheads is assured. It's simply poor customer service that manufacturers won't provide same in the USA.

Why?

Well, tube-type tires remain available for my G/S and their installation is a breeze. The sidewalls are much more flexible, and I can install (warm) tires on those wire wheels with just hands--no struggling with tools.

OTOH, installation of the tubeless versions on my RS's snowflakes is a royal PITA, as the sidewalls are extremely stiff.

Despite all the marketing hype that may exist, there is no safety advantage to tubeless tires. The only advantage is in ease of assembly in situations where automatic tools are available. This is not an advantage to the end DIY consumer.

Tube-type tires are quite advantageous to the motorcyclist, too, as a spare tube can be carried and easily inserted if required.

OTOH--despite what you may fantasize--you'll be in trouble with a tubeless flat, as the plugs often don't work. And, if you roll the tire off the rim, good luck getting it aired up again. You should carry tubes!

It may also be of interest to note that, for example Bridgestone, states the following: "The only acceptable repair involves removing the wheel from the tire." That is, they do not approve plugs and insist on internal patches.

It's REALLY hard to see why anyone would want to run Airhead wheels tubeless.

[flash412]

> Would those wheels not be called defective?

Not in the slightest, because they were not designed as tubeless wheels.Has any motorcycle manufacturer besides BMW ever sold cast wheels that are NOT supposed to be run tubeless? I can't think of one. If not, then there is a defacto "industry standard" that BMW failed to meet.

[flash412]

It's REALLY hard to see why anyone would want to run Airhead wheels tubeless.It's fun. If nothing else, just because it puts some folks' panties in a very tight bind.:twirl

[kbasa]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with putting a tube in a tire. Considering how often you have to mess with it, it sure seems like a non issue to me.

[James.A]

I powder my tubes with corn starch to make 'em slip and slide inside the tire easier. The last thing you want is for your tube to swell up in a sticky place.

[dlearl476]

Pourous or not, BMW recalled snowflake wheels because problems in manufacture (and possibly design) resulting in spokes that cracked at the hub. IIRC, the later design had extra ribbing to support the junction. A person who KNOWS can tell if you have the original, dangerous, design still on your bike.
That BMW would PAY to replace wheels because they leaked air is comedy beyond compare. They won't even replace their NFG drive shafts with any regularity.

>That is, they do not approve plugs and insist on internal patches.


Call me cynical, but IMHO it's the LEGAL department that doesn't approve of plugs. In my limited experience (two plugs so far for a total of ~8k miles), they work fine. Both times I was well aware of a problem before my tire came anywhwere near losing a bead. IMHO, if you DID sustain a catastrophic loss of TP that would cause an unbeading, a) you would have tire damage far and above what a plug could patch and b) fixing a flat would be the last thing on your mind. YMMV

[flash412]

I powder my tubes with corn starch to make 'em slip and slide inside the tire easier. The last thing you want is for your tube to swell up in a sticky place.I powder my tubes with talcum powder. Also, I inflate tires to 50psi (after the bead seats), then I remove the valve core and let all the air out, then replace core and inflate to final pressure. This gives the tube a chance to "re-settle" inside the tire after the bead is seated.

[Bob_M]

I powder my tubes with corn starch to make 'em slip and slide inside the tire easier. The last thing you want is for your tube to swell up in a sticky place.

Perhaps that will keep your panties from getting in a very tight bind :twirl

[James.A]

Panties?...what panties?

[Bob_M]

It's fun. If nothing else, just because it puts some folks' panties in a very tight bind.:twirl

Just follow'n the thread

[srb]

"More than rubber? Ever blow up a toy ballon and leave it over night?"

That balloon gets smaller because the warm air you blew into it has cooled and now takes up less space, not because of the porosity of the rubber.

[flash412]

That balloon gets smaller because the warm air you blew into it has cooled and now takes up less space, not because of the porosity of the rubber.If that's true, why doesn't it do all it's shrinking during the first three or four hours after inflation? And why will it continue to shrink over the next day or five until it is completely flat?

[pmdave]

Well, BMW designed it's "snowflake" wheels in a time when motorcycle tires were almost all tube type. So, the rim beads were tapered, just as spoked wheel rims were. And since the tube-type wheels assumed an innertube to hold air, tubes were appropriate even for the "snowflake" wheels.

But that was then, and this is now. Tube-type tires are rare for street bikes (other than some cruisers), and tubeless tires assume no innertube, so there is no need to be concerned about friction between tire and tube. Take a good like inside a tubeless tire, and it's common to see all sorts of sharp ridges that could rub an innertube raw, with or without medicated crotch powder. That's probably the big reason for not using a tube inside a tubeless tire.

Yes, low pressure aluminum castings are notoriously porous, but so are natural rubber innertubes. And, as some old timers can attest, the synthetic innertubes didn't leak air slowly, but they had a nasty habit of suddenly splitting open. I've run both types of tubes in both tube and tubeless tires, in various combinations on both snowflake and spoked wheels, and had deflations in all types. The bottom line is that there is a mysterious black hole in the universe into which tire air is drawn when you aren't looking. It's related to the black hole where fork fluid goes.

If you get severe headaches from the thought of not using an innertube inside a tubeless tire mounted on a snowflake rim, by all means install an innertube. Based on my experience, when the tube lets go, it will slip around inside the tire into a wad near the valve stem, and the severely unbalanced wheel will clue you to look inside the tire, even though the tire remains inflated. (Well, there are some folks who will first attempt to rebalance the tire with a couple bottles of slime, which creates some VERY interesting tire dynamics, but that's another string.)

On the other hand, if you don't get severe headaches from the idea of mounting a tubeless tire on a snowflake rim without a tube, it will very likely do just fine, in spite of the dire warnings from the pro-condom crowd. It's a marriage of old and new technology, and BMW didn't plan it.

And, regardless of what sort of wheel/tire/tube/stem system you choose, I suggest that what's really important is to get the air pressurized to the appropriate numbers before you ride away. Low pressures are a prime contributor to sudden deflations.

pmdave

[James.A]

Thanks for the info Dave. Here is a question that might be relevant for some of us. Since most tires are now tubeless type tires, what about those of us who MUST use tubes. I only use the corn starch for seating the inner tube on the initial inflation. I have lost a few tubes to pinch situations on initital pressurization, and dusting is a trick I picked up from another rider who does all his own work. Since I started dusting my tubes, I have not had a catastrophic failure on the first airing. It never occurred to me that there might be any benefit beyond that. So if tubless tires might be rough on the inside, and tubeless tires are prevalent, are we shooting crap to use them on early airheads with spoked wheels, needing an inner-tube? I can testify to the fact that the stiffer tubeless tire beads are more difficult to fit by hand. Extra lubrication on the install is most beneficial. Would it advantageous to inspect NEW tires and carefully remove internal irregularities?

[lkchris]

Here is a question that might be relevant for some of us. Since most tires are now tubeless type tires, what about those of us who MUST use tubes.

Just do it.

None of the manufacturers suggest any special procedures other than, sometimes, to consider it a one-step lower speed rating.

It's all on their Web sites, and you can read it for yourself.

[Yockyrides]

I'm riding an 83R65. Always ran it with tubes. Switched from the original Contis to Metzelers. It has gotten harder to get my size tires. Keep an eye on tire wear and plan ahead in case the dealer needs to obtain stock for you. 18's used to be very common but apparently that isn't the case anymore.

[lorazepam]

I'm riding an 83R65. Always ran it with tubes. Switched from the original Contis to Metzelers. It has gotten harder to get my size tires. Keep an eye on tire wear and plan ahead in case the dealer needs to obtain stock for you. 18's used to be very common but apparently that isn't the case anymore.
Try tires unlimited for the sizes you need. I found some gs type tires in 18 and 19 inch sizes. Reasonable pricing, too. http://www.tiresunlimited.com/motorcycle_tires.htm