Streetlight won't change to green

[walterK75]

I would be interested in how people deal with stop lights at intersections that don't change. These on-demand lights with the sensors in the pavement often don't "know" I'm waiting for a green light. I have a gizmo on the bike to trigger the light, but it doesn't always work. I hate waiting for a car to show up to change the light to green. It's so humiliating.

[criminaldesign]

I resort to running the red light.

[PGlaves]

Your gizmo to alert the signals you are there will seldom work.

Call the city or county responsible for maintaining the signals at that intersection and report the problem. The loop sensitivity needs to be adjusted. Note the time, date, and who you talked to. You might need the information later, because:

When the signal fails to activate and no car comes along you are faced with several technically unlawful actions.

1. Left turn on red.
2. Lane change within the intersection.
3. Right turn from the left lane.

The only technically legal movement is to push the bike backwards until you can change lanes prior to being in the intersection, then proceed straight through on green.

It is my personal opinion that the situation falls under the category of a signal malfunction which should be treated as a 4-way stop. However, I had a rather long argument on-line with a former LEO who's advice basically was "good luck with that" when the officer sees you.

So call it in, call it in, call it in, call it in. Most public works departments actually do want their signals to work correctly.

[Greenwald]

I would be interested in how people deal with stop lights at intersections that don't change. These on-demand lights with the sensors in the pavement often don't "know" I'm waiting for a green light. I have a gizmo on the bike to trigger the light, but it doesn't always work. I hate waiting for a car to show up to change the light to green. It's so humiliating.

I sympathize with your frustration.

There have been many anecdotal 'solutions' to this problem mentioned before on this forum, i.e. "specific placement of the bike over the coil, undercarriage magnets, touching down the side stand, pestering your DPW for adjustments to sensitivity, lucky charms, snake oil, phases of the moon, take your chances in court" and other such libations.

Check first if you state actually allows you to violate the signal under a specific set of circumstances, as in the case now (actually since Fall of 2008) here in Wisconsin.

If not, PM me with your e-mail and I'll send you the text of our State Statute that permits a motorcyclist to ignore the red light after certain precautions are met.

Then, send a copy of it to your state legislators with a request that they too join the 21st Century of traffic laws. :deal

[TomBarnhart]

Many of the loop sensors do not detect a motorcycle. Calling the local community responsible for their maintenance usually does not work. If it were a car it would get a response.

In any case, most state codes allow you to proceed after waiting a normal time for the signal to change.

More communities are going to the radar sensors. You can tell them by the camera like device mounted on a stalk above the signal posts or arms. These rarely fail.

[Toadmanor]

Here in Minnesota it is legal, on a motorcycle, to proceed through a red light after waiting for a time and ascertaining the intersection is clear.

I have never been questioned as I do this often.

[35634]

I try to stop right on top of the cutout (usually a rectangle) for the sensor wire. That seems to work 99% of the time. If not I run the light.

[lionlady]

Put your bike at the intersection of as many pavement-sensor cutouts as possible. I've almost never had an issue with a sensor not recognizing my R1150R.

I always stop with my cylinders over a crosswise cut, and the tires/wheels on a lengthwise cut.

P

[BuddingGeezer]

I sympathize with your frustration.



Check first if you state actually allows you to violate the signal under a specific set of circumstances, as in the case now (actually since Fall of 2008) here in Wisconsin.

l

Arkansas has this law.

Ralph Sims

[PGlaves]

I sympathize with your frustration.

Check first if you state actually allows you to violate the signal under a specific set of circumstances, as in the case now (actually since Fall of 2008) here in Wisconsin.

l

Glad you found that Kevin.

[beemermyke]

Georgia has this law as well. I find it very useful on my early commute to work, where it's just me and the crickets some mornings.

[aviator]

I may be wrong here but have heard that it has something to do with "iron" or steel your car or vehicle has. More plastic and alum, you will not trip the field.

[Greenwald]

I may be wrong here but have heard that it has something to do with "iron" or steel your car or vehicle has. More plastic and alum, you will not trip the field.

No - you're correct.

It's all about causing a detectable disruption in a magnetic coil. It is not about weight. Not enough ferrous metal - no discernable disruption.

Either need more metal or increased sensitivity.

[Greenwald]

Glad you found that Kevin.

I take it Texas does not have this law?! :deal

[PGlaves]

I take it Texas does not have this law?! :deal

I don't know. It has never been an issue here. Brewster County, in all 6,192 square miles does not have any traffic signals, let alone one with a protected left turn. :)

[Maylett]

Last May, I asked the same question here about traffic lights that don't recognize motorcycles, and there were some pretty good responses. Here's the link: http://bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=45529

[98lee]

Uhh, you guys actually STOP at lights???? :scratch





Ooops! :uhoh








:dance:dance:dance

[cathdeac]

I made friends with the local traffic control techs... and offered to drive by for them to verify the system works.

Turns out they were "instructed" by "managment" to turn down sensitivity on the sensors to "save money.. so they don't burn out the sensors". The loops are unaffected, but the sensors seem to have a high failure rate... imagine that.

[nytrashman]

in NY you can not legally proceed through a light that does not detect a motorcycle. i have spoken to several different law enforcement officers in various dept's (ny state police, county police, local town & city cops etc) and almost to a man (or woman) they all agree that if you treat it as a non-functioning light and proceed with caution 99.9% of the officers will not ticket you for going through the light. the only exception were the NY State Police that said, and i quote "if you go through a red light you will get a ticket", they did not want to hear anything about the light not functioning for a motorcycle for any reason.

now for the strange part. i asked the NY State Police officers i spoke with what would happen if i was in my car and the light would not change and they all said i could go through the light with due cation. i asked them straight out "you mean if the light does not work i can proceed through it with my car but not my bike" and the answer was YES. this is called selective enforcement, which in the eyes of the law is illegal.

i urge all NYS residents that read this to write there elected officials to get the law changed so it allows the operator of a motorcycle to treat a traffic light that does not detect a motorcycle to treat the light as a non-functioning light and to be allowed to proceed through the light with due cation, as if it were a four way stop sign

[Rad]

You asked what I/we do. I wait for a full sequence and proceed with caution, usually completing my left turn. This happens to me almost once a week on both the motorcycles and bicycles I commute on.

I have never been ticketed, if I was stopped my only response would be to paraphrase California State law which states basically that vehicles are not only allowed, but required to treat nonoperational traffic signals as controlled stops.

I understand in doing so the burden will be on me to convince the officer or judge in court that the signal was indeed nonoperational.

I also have one other technique, those signals that I know will not change for me, I don’t turn there unless there is traffic already stacked up.

[chaconja]

I deal with this same situation every time I leave my community. The intersection and the stoplight is less than a year old and my guess is that the sensitivity will not pick up a motorcycle. I've put my cylinders right over the wires and it still hasn't made a difference.

So I wait for one complete sequence and then ensure that the intersection is clear before proceeding through the red light and completing my left turn.

(short version - I run the light)

[robday]

You asked what I/we do. I wait for a full sequence and proceed with caution, usually completing my left turn. This happens to me almost once a week on both the motorcycles and bicycles I commute on.

I have never been ticketed, if I was stopped my only response would be to paraphrase California State law which states basically that vehicles are not only allowed, but required to treat nonoperational traffic signals as controlled stops.

I understand in doing so the burden will be on me to convince the officer or judge in court that the signal was indeed nonoperational.

I also have one other technique, those signals that I know will not change for me, I don’t turn there unless there is traffic already stacked up.

Yes, in California there are a couple of loopholes you can use to get out of a ticket (or have it dismissed). Many of the statutes in the Vehicle Code end with this phrase: "...unless it is safe to do so..."
So, by the letter of the law in some cases, if it is "safe" to proceed through a red light, it is technically permitted. You may still get a ticket, but a "trial by declaration" (ie; fighting it through the mail) is easy and has worked for me on a few occasions. Didn't even have to show up in court.

Another California law that riders should probably be aware of is the law(s) concerning radar use. If you are ticketed and told that you were clocked on radar (or laser), the ticket may be invalidated if the roadway has not been surveyed for radar use. In other words, if there are no signs stating "speed checked by radar", it's likely that the road has not been surveyed, and the ticket is not valid. And here in California, radar/laser is not allowed on interstate highways (at least it wasn't the last time I checked, which was a few years ago). So, if you're on the 10 Fwy (I10) and get a ticket from radar, it is also invalid.

Most folks don't know these details about our vehicle code...but my brother is a 25 year veteran of the Highway Patrol, and also a rider.

[Braddog]

Here in Minnesota it is legal, on a motorcycle, to proceed through a red light after waiting for a time and ascertaining the intersection is clear.

I have never been questioned as I do this often.

Ditto, as do I.

As has been stated, check your state laws. It may be OK to run the red after stopping and waiting for whatever is considered the appropriate amount of time, or appropriate number of signal cycles.

[Pauls1150]

California actually does have a specific statute (sorry I don't have the # handy) that allows any vehicle to proceed after coming to a full stop and ascertaining that the sensor is malfunctioning, and that it is safe to proceed. This doesn't mean that you won't have to discuss it with the local LEO...

Also: the inductive pickup loops detect a change in the magnetic field, not an "absolute value", so you have to cross over at least one of the loops to trigger it (provided it is sensitive enough). These loops are towards the outer perimeter of the "cutout", not in the middle, so place your bike in the part of the lane that will put the most ferrous material crossing into the field.

I've seen pickup trucks get "stuck" because they were simply jacked up too high for the sensor to detect!

[Polarbear]

In Fresno, I have to bust a light every night, for this very reason. I go to work at midnight or later and nearly no city traffic, so I bust the light after a full stop. I GOT stopped just a few weeks ago too, by the local Fresno city cops. Unlucky one night, I guess, because I've been doing this route for 20+ years on the bike, busting this same light for nearly all that time and no issues. This cop actually looked me over good, asked where I worked, what I was doing roaming the city streets in the middle of the night and I was almost at my workplace, a few blocks away and then let me go:). I did tell him the lights are not motorcycle friendly and been so for years and years, he said nothing. I still bust the light, stopping every time. Randy

[deilenberger]

I'd also suggest contacting the authority who maintains or installed the light, and tell them it isn't triggering. In writing is good (with a copy for yourself..) I've never had them ignore the letter. Usually within a few days the light has been adjusted and the bike is now "seen"..

Which reminds me - they replaced loop sensors with camera sensors at a nearby light, and I've gotta write them about it. It's not seeing my bike correctly.

[gunnert]

In Virginia, you can go to the state DMV website and send them an email identifying the intersection that needs resetting. I have had "some" luck with the site.

To correct, I have installed a tool box magnet (6"x 1/2") to the center stand and this appears to help at most intersections.

[deilenberger]

In Virginia, you can go to the state DMV website and send them an email identifying the intersection that needs resetting. I have had "some" luck with the site.

To correct, I have installed a tool box magnet (6"x 1/2") to the center stand and this appears to help at most intersections.A lot of intersections in NJ are being switched from the inductive loop design to the camera design. Magnets don't help the camera ones at all :bolt

[85801]

in the magazine, "friction zone" november, 1999, there is a "get out of jail free coupon" for california riders. it states;
if you find yourself stuck at a traffic light and the in-road sensor doesn't seem to realize you're there, you can legally proceed through the red light as long as it is safe to do so.
california vehicle code, section 21800(d)(1) provides: "the driver of any vehicle approaching an intersection which has official traffic control signals that are inoperative shall stop at the intersection, and may proceed with caution when it is safe to do so."
if your bike doesn't trigger the device, the device is considered to be inoperative.

[rocketman]

in NY you can not legally proceed through a light that does not detect a motorcycle. i have spoken to several different law enforcement officers in various dept's (ny state police, county police, local town & city cops etc) and almost to a man (or woman) they all agree that if you treat it as a non-functioning light and proceed with caution 99.9% of the officers will not ticket you for going through the light. the only exception were the NY State Police that said, and i quote "if you go through a red light you will get a ticket", they did not want to hear anything about the light not functioning for a motorcycle for any reason.

now for the strange part. i asked the NY State Police officers i spoke with what would happen if i was in my car and the light would not change and they all said i could go through the light with due cation. i asked them straight out "you mean if the light does not work i can proceed through it with my car but not my bike" and the answer was YES. this is called selective enforcement, which in the eyes of the law is illegal.

i urge all NYS residents that read this to write there elected officials to get the law changed so it allows the operator of a motorcycle to treat a traffic light that does not detect a motorcycle to treat the light as a non-functioning light and to be allowed to proceed through the light with due cation, as if it were a four way stop sign

that's why I tend to look up laws in the books rather than get an opinion from a law officer since they might not jibe all the time. One can't really expect them to know every law and every detail of each afterall.

here ya go, from findlaw for NY traffic code..

§ 1117. Traffic-control signals; malfunction. Except when directed to
proceed by a police officer, every operator of a motor vehicle
approaching an intersection governed by a traffic-control signal which
is out of service or otherwise malfunctioning shall stop in the manner
required for stop signs set forth in section eleven hundred seventy-two
of this title, and proceed according to the rules of right of way for
vehicles set forth in article twenty-six of this title.

So if the signal does not respond to your bike, one could view it as falling under the "otherwise malfunctioning" clause and you just treat it as a 4 way stop. Makes no difference whether car or bike. So “technically” you could proceed, how well it would sit with a judge is another matter! but I did use the same thinking when a light did not/does not respond to my bikes, haven't "tested" it yet but now we have a law on the books to allow for it so.....

Lots of states seem to be adopting the right to turn left after stopping if the signal does not "see" you. Most seem to require waiting at least one full cycle of the light before proceeding. Seems like you could use the above law to argue for a change and specific regulation covering that.



RM

[ANDYVH]

I went to our local Fleet-Farm store (kind of like a Tractor Supply/Home Depot) and bought some "cow magnets" in the bovine supplies aisle. They are about $5 a pair, and are basically a three inch long magnet powder coated black.

What,....you got no stores in your area with a "bovine" aisle? Hmm,..your loss, oh well.

Anyway, I used high-strength epoxy to glue the magnets to the vertical leading side of my centerstand, just high enough that they won't touch the ground when the stand is down. It seems to help. The magnets are low on the bike, don't mess with the electronics on the bike, and if the sensor is touchy, I simply push the centerstand down to touch and lift it, and the light triggers.

Here is some info on them, http://magnets-cow.com/

[rocketman]

cows are magnetic????

who'd of thunk! :laugh

so do they produce iron-rich milk in your area?

RM

[bmwgsrider]

I read an issue in a magazine about traffic lights not changing to green because the lights are not set for motorcycles to trigger them. The article suggested to call the local street department and report which lights are not triggering and the street department will correct the issue. I have this problem with some of the traffic lights where I live and have not called my street department. I will one of these days and see if the problem will be corrected.

[ANDYVH]

The method of calling the local maintenance responsible for setting the sensor is especially effective if you offer to be the test subject to set the sensor. That way, in a sense they set the sensor for your bike, it switches just for you, and you ride on!

[Reverse]

When I get to one of these lights (and there were many in my relatively small town), I quietly steam in my helmet, make a note of the location, then proceed.

I created a Google map where I recorded all locations, along with comments detailing whether it was left turn, etc.

After doing this for a while, and gathering a nice collection of malfunctioning lights, I emailed the link to the map to the city's public works department. They called me back within a day, and actually fixed the lights within two weeks.

Not sure if my city is more responsive than others, but making it easy for them to see which ones malfunctioned probably didn't hurt.

Also, a tip I received from a fellow rider (and engineer I believe): when there are three loops in the pavement, position yourself on the middle one. It is usually the most sensitive one. This worked for me in several intersections where I couldn't get a green light before. The sucky part is of course that the center of the lane is covered in oil and other liquids :-(

[DBCasey]

Where would I go to find out the law about this specific to my state and/or city. (Frankfort, Kentucky)

I too have noticed several lights that won't change for me while I'm on the bike. One particular one is on my way home from work. I've run it on occasion, but only after waiting at least one cycle. I've just been fortunate to not have had any of Frankfort's Finest be around.

The cow magnets sounds like a good option as long as they don't get knocked off.

[Greenwald]

Where would I go to find out the law about this specific to my state and/or city. (Frankfort, Kentucky)

I too have noticed several lights that won't change for me while I'm on the bike. One particular one is on my way home from work. I've run it on occasion, but only after waiting at least one cycle. I've just been fortunate to not have had any of Frankfort's Finest be around.

The cow magnets sounds like a good option as long as they don't get knocked off.


Knock yourself out, my friend! :lurk

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/krs/189-00/chapter.htm

[E_Page]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious, so I gotta ask, what is a cow magnet used for and how is it used?

I may regret asking that.

[Greenwald]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious, so I gotta ask, what is a cow magnet used for and how is it used?

I may regret asking that.

Up here in the Dairy State, it's how we get the iron out of the milk! :doh

[Anyname]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is curious, so I gotta ask, what is a cow magnet used for and how is it used?

I may regret asking that.

Cows occasionally swallow old nails etc. Feeding the cow a magnet keeps the nails from causing internal bleeding. The magnets are coated with plastic to prevent them from corroding.

Chick magnets, are not, however, an agricultural tool for poultry...

[R80RTJohnny]

FWIW I've had some success when lowering the center stand, making sure it makes contact with the ground (trigger area?) while waiting for the light to change. When this does not work I'll wait for the lights to cycle once then proceed with care.

[norton1]

If you can't grt light to change here is a trick
find a fist or smaller strong magnet , find an area to attach on bottom of bike. Has worked for me

[pffog]

What rocketnam said, in NY state it IS legal to proceed through a malfunctioning traffic light. If a cop stops you., tell them to read the law BEFORE they get out their ticket book.

[Greenwald]

What rocketnam said, in NY state it IS legal to proceed through a malfunctioning traffic light. If a cop stops you., tell them to read the law BEFORE they get out their ticket book.

I have a curiosity question for you. Not in any way trying to argue about anything - just professional curiosity - OK?!

I've done some research into this matter, and since you hail from the great state of New York, here is your specific language as it applies to a "malfunctioning" traffic signal:

§ 1117. Traffic-control signals; malfunction. Except when directed to
proceed by a police officer, every operator of a motor vehicle
approaching an intersection governed by a traffic-control signal which
is out of service or otherwise malfunctioning shall stop in the manner
required for stop signs set forth in section eleven hundred seventy-two
of this title, and proceed according to the rules of right of way for
vehicles set forth in article twenty-six of this title.


However, the 'litmus test' for this wording to be of any benefit or advantage to you as a motorcyclist is not if you or even your attorney thinks it applies to signals that fail to notice and react to a motorcycle - it's whether or not there is CASE LAW on file to support that interpretation.

In other words - has someone in New York challenged a traffic citation they received based on the 'malfunctioning' exception and has a lower court of law ruled (and such ruling was supported by an appelate court review) that failing to be detected is the same as malfunctioning?

It doesn't matter how WE as riders interpret the law - in our legal system, what matters is how the courts interpret the law and have ruled on it.

As the old saying goes, "Cemetaries and jails are full of people who believed their opinions were all that mattered."

Let me know if case law (which must be 'published' for other courts in your state to obey) exists in NY to support this interpretation of Section 1117 of the New York State Traffic Statutes.

Thanks for your help! :deal

[pffog]

Let me know if case law (which must be 'published' for other courts in your state to obey) exists in NY to support this interpretation of Section 1117 of the New York State Traffic Statutes.

Thanks for your help! :deal

I guess I really can't answer that question, as there are probably millions of cases and the research could take weeks, unless one got lucky.

But I do know some Judges and they say if you came to court and asked for dismissal, they might ask how long you waited etc, to ensure you just didn't blow the light, and then throw it out and likely chastise the cop for wasting everyone's time.

I frequently see local town justices throw stuff out, and admonish the cops for being jerks, as I have seen them admonish citizens for being stupid.

Traffic tickets are 95% of the time are handled by the local town Justice , that took a week long training class after he was elected. They are not career judges, but truck drivers, farmers, working hacks of some sort, and they don't like wasting their time for stupid stuff, and most are not afraid to let the cop/accused know it. They can get called any time night or day to arraign a person, many times in their kitchen at home, so after this happens a few times they get pretty uppity.

All laws, even ones that have been supported through rulings from the highest courts get misapplied, and require further challenges at times. That is how Lawyers and Politicians like it.

[Greenwald]

I guess I really can't answer that question, as there are probably millions of cases and the research could take weeks, unless one got lucky.

But I do know some Judges and they say if you came to court and asked for dismissal, they might ask how long you waited etc, to ensure you just didn't blow the light, and then throw it out and likely chastise the cop for wasting everyone's time.

I frequently see local town justices throw stuff out, and admonish the cops for being jerks, as I have seen them admonish citizens for being stupid.

Traffic tickets are 95% of the time are handled by the local town Justice , that took a week long training class after he was elected. They are not career judges, but truck drivers, farmers, working hacks of some sort, and they don't like wasting their time for stupid stuff, and most are not afraid to let the cop/accused know it. They can get called any time night or day to arraign a person, many times in their kitchen at home, so after this happens a few times they get pretty uppity.

All laws, even ones that have been supported through rulings from the highest courts get misapplied, and require further challenges at times. That is how Lawyers and Politicians like it.

Fair enough. Just thought maybe you'd know if your interpretation was case law in your state.

As for your statement of "cops being jerks," that certainly does not offend me.

While most law enforcement professionals that I worked with for over three decades were just that - professionals, I've seen my share of 'jerks' too. Name me a job category that does not have any?!

Thanks for the response, and good luck should you ever find yourself sitting across the kitchen table from one of those 'Justices' you deal with in your neck of the woods. :bikes

[radan2]

NC has a law that, if the bike will not trigger the sensor, you can go through the intersection after two minutes, provided you can do so without endangering yourself and other vehicles.

[Greenwald]

NC has a law that, if the bike will not trigger the sensor, you can go through the intersection after two minutes, provided you can do so without endangering yourself and other vehicles.

Similar law and privileges here in Wisconsin.

Only here - not as patient. We only have to wait 45 seconds, then decide.

If we sit still for a full two minutes, we freeze in place - and that's in May! :D

[DamonS]

I have one of these (http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=153) under the insoles in each of boots. I stop so I can put one of the boots right on the cutout line and it works for most of the signal lights. For those that don't change, I tend to eventually run it after it has cycled and if I see no LEO's or traffic cams in the area.

[jopars]

FWIW, I had this happen in downtown Phoenix just a couple of days ago.

I had stopped at a red light, wanting to turn left (I was the only one). When it was obvious that the light didn't acknowledge my existence (i.e. after 2 full cycles), and despite lots of traffic going every which way through the intersection (but no one also turning left with me), I proceeded through against the red when safe. No one apparently noticed or cared.

I really don't care what the law says... Such a light is dysfunctional, and one should not feel obliged to indefinitely obey a dysfunctional signal, regardless of individual interpretation. If ever stopped and cited, I would calmly and respectfully plead not guilty and refuse to pay any fine if so levied. If any officer or system would rather "put me up" for a few days rather than see the error in their logic, then that's on their head. That's one of the privileges of being retired and cantankerous...

:stick
JP
:D

[JWMcDonald]

Prior suggestion(s) about notifying the local authorities to check out the problem really do work.

I had a pleasant and cooperative interaction with CalTrans in Sonoma County this morning at a Windsor exit.

The day after I called in a problem intersection, I received call from the field technician who appreciated my offer to come provide a motorcycle test vehicle.

Turns out there was a failing detector card in the roadside igloo for controlling the intersection. He confirmed that if I had not shown up to do "test stops" he would have increased the sensitivity and left it at that. He spent the extra few minutes to troubleshoot and swap cards, and now there is my personalized sensitivity setting established...:)

[amiles]

There may be some hope of this problem being indirectly solved. In some areas hereabouts the signals are being changed to what I believe they call an "at will left turn". What this means is that the left turn lane does not get a red signal separate from that of the through traffic. A steady green signal permits through traffic as well as permitting left turns to be made when it is safe to do so as determined by the driver.

In addition to this a double sensor loop (in a sort of figure 8) is placed roughly where the third or fourth car in line would be detected. The assumption here is that drivers using the old tried & true "claiming" method (waiting just inside the intersection until the light changes, don't need the arrow if waiting two cars at a time. When the line exceeds two cars, the signal engages the left green arrow to clear the lane.

I hope to see more and more of these in the future as lights are being replaced with LED signal heads, and smart technology goes in with the new controls which are often changed at the same time..

[rocketman]

FWIW, I had this happen in downtown Phoenix just a couple of days ago.

I had stopped at a red light, wanting to turn left (I was the only one). When it was obvious that the light didn't acknowledge my existence (i.e. after 2 full cycles), and despite lots of traffic going every which way through the intersection (but no one also turning left with me), I proceeded through against the red when safe. No one apparently noticed or cared.

I really don't care what the law says... Such a light is dysfunctional, and one should not feel obliged to indefinitely obey a dysfunctional signal, regardless of individual interpretation. If ever stopped and cited, I would calmly and respectfully plead not guilty and refuse to pay any fine if so levied. If any officer or system would rather "put me up" for a few days rather than see the error in their logic, then that's on their head. That's one of the privileges of being retired and cantankerous...

:stick
JP
:D

I don't think you have the option of entering a plea at the time of the ticket being issued or that you need to worry about being arrested at that time. you would have to go to court and enter the plea and if found guilty you'd have to pay the fine plus any court costs. I doubt you could refuse to accept the ticket, now that might get you arrested and even being retired I can't see it would be worth going to jail over it! Besides may states are now allowing for left turns when the light is malfunctioning if you treat it as you would any four-way stop, proceed with caution when the cross traffic or oncoming traffic has cleared the intersection, after waiting for one or sometimes 2 full cycles.

Sometimes caution is the better part of valor and all that jazz..bravado is often not the best option!

RM

[jopars]

Sometimes caution is the better part of valor and all that jazz..bravado is often not the best option!

RM

Quite right... I'm not riding around looking for opportunities to snub my nose at any system. I simply meant that I would put my case calmly and clearly to the officer (and if necessary, a judge). If a fine was levied in spite of it all, I would attempt to take the alternative sentencing as opposed to paying it. :nyah

Of course, if one is on the road, it would be unlikely that one would commute many miles back to the scene to address all the processes to get to this point. Bravado is only worth so much inconvenience, right? :D

Passing through Great Falls, MT last week, a signal that "ignored" me a couple of years ago was doing the same thing again, so I waited long enough to ensure that the light was still malfunctioning and no traffic was coming along to help me out... then merely rode through the red light when safe to do so. No drama. :brow

Really, if there is no traffic to trip the signal for you, and you wait until safe to do so, it's extremely unlikely that there's even a LEO around to see you and cite you. I'll take my chances with those odds.

JP

[rocketman]

Quite right... I'm not riding around looking for opportunities to snub my nose at any system. I simply meant that I would put my case calmly and clearly to the officer (and if necessary, a judge). If a fine was levied in spite of it all, I would attempt to take the alternative sentencing as opposed to paying it. :nyah

Of course, if one is on the road, it would be unlikely that one would commute many miles back to the scene to address all the processes to get to this point. Bravado is only worth so much inconvenience, right? :D

Passing through Great Falls, MT last week, a signal that "ignored" me a couple of years ago was doing the same thing again, so I waited long enough to ensure that the light was still malfunctioning and no traffic was coming along to help me out... then merely rode through the red light when safe to do so. No drama. :brow

Really, if there is no traffic to trip the signal for you, and you wait until safe to do so, it's extremely unlikely that there's even a LEO around to see you and cite you. I'll take my chances with those odds.

JP

What?? NO drama?? How drool :laugh

yeah I pretty much do the same around here, just wait a bit then proceed with caution ...(with a little bravado thrown in for good measure :lol )

As for going back on a trip for taking care of a ticket, I did do that once but really had no choice as I knew if I kept going I'd never get around to paying it thru the mail. Asked where the mayors office was and the trooper told me it was in the town I just passed thru (What town???) Oh, you mean where the gas station general store was?? (no other buildings for miles, Hmmmm..) Found the general store/gas station which also severed as the town's mayor's office (can you see where this is going?? :lol ) When I entered I saw two desks in the back and asked for the mayor, who was also the store owner/gas jockey ( i half expected him to take off his greasy service cap and put on a stove-pipe or some other "official" looking head piece) and gave him the ticket and the cash ( the state trooper actually knew the ticket cost, that right there was a clue to get this taken care of pronto!). the "mayor" took the ticket and cash, folded the cash in with the store/gas money he had in his pocket and told me to be on my way. I was really tempted to ask what the trooper's cut was, ( was young but luckily not Too foolish!) then decided that might not be a good idea! Ha Ha!

RM

[dwyandell]

I'm curious. . . my MSF instructor, who was a full-time DMV employee and seemed to be pretty clued-in to our state (Vermont) statutes, said the only legal course was to push back, maneuver into a lane for a right turn, and turn right on red. .. . then find a place to make a legal U-turn, etc., etc.. . .

I notice nobody in this thread has said this is what they do. Common sense suggests that the safest possible course is probably to treat it like a stop sign--you are certainly no MORE likely to get hit making a careful 'look and cross' or 'look and turn left' than a 'look and turn right' . . .and making a RH turn from the left turn or straight lane, or trying to walk your bike around in the intersection, seems infinitely more likely to get you hit . . .

What do I do? all of the above I guess. Entering heavy traffic I turn right- lonely road, I cross or turn left. The best solution seems to be to avoid intersections where you know the sensor doesnt pick up a bike. In my experience here in Vermont, the likelihood that the state will send a crew to adjust the sensor if you complain is somewhere between hitting powerball and getting hit by lightning.

BTW I bought a bunch of rare earth magnets from the internet and stuck them to various spots on the bottom of our bikes. . . seems to help at some crossings but not others. I think these might be cheaper and stronger than cow magnets and are a better shape for sticking to the bottomside of a bike.

I wouldnt dare to use a cow magnet. . . we have too many cows here in Vermont. We already have enough trouble avoiding all the porcupines, possum, deer, raccoons, skunks, woodchucks, bear, etc. The LAST thing I need is a cow stuck to my airhead.

Dave
'84 R80ST
MOA 169106

[bmwrider88]

I'm curious. . . my MSF instructor, who was a full-time DMV employee and seemed to be pretty clued-in to our state (Vermont) statutes, said the only legal course was to push back, maneuver into a lane for a right turn, and turn right on red. .. . then find a place to make a legal U-turn, etc., etc.. . .

I notice nobody in this thread has said this is what they do.

Dave
'84 R80ST
MOA 169106

this is exactly what i do when confronted with this issue, which is basically at about 98% of all our local lights. of course i live in a suburban zone, so unless it's late, there are typically cars about to *help* trigger the light. and of course out in the country, there aren't any (or there are darn few) lights. either treat it as a stop sign or turn right and the u-turn the bike.

never had any issues tho never been seen by an LEO either. as was already mentioned if you wait thru a couple rounds and don't get the light, then look to see if no one is coming and go, it's not likely that you'll be seen by ANYONE much less an LEO.

[bmwrider88]

here is the PA statute on malfunctioning signals, which reads as i'm certain do many others:

(c) Inoperable or malfunctioning signal.--If a traffic-
control signal is out of operation or is not functioning
properly, vehicular traffic facing a:
(1) Green or yellow signal may proceed with caution as
indicated in subsection (a)(1) and (2).
(2) Red or completely unlighted signal shall stop in the
same manner as at a stop sign, and the right to proceed shall
be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a
stop sign as provided in section 3323 (relating to stop signs
and yield signs).
(Dec. 21, 1998, P.L.1126, No.151, eff. 60 days)
1998

obviously this is left open to the discretion of the officer at hand, and whether or not a signal is *malfunctioning* may or may not be arguable in traffic court, or on the actual scene when dealing with whomever pulls you over on this...

as i mentioned above, i takes my own chances and at least TRY to appear to be doing *the right thing*. (as opposed to the knuckleheaded thing?) guess i'll find out how it goes if and when i ever get pulled over for thjs....

[Superdave Osborne]

I heard that you can trigger the loop detector by hitting the kill switch and then restarting the bike. The starter motor throws off a magnetic field that triggers the sensor. I've used this a couple of times and it seemed to work, but that could be a coincidence too. Anyone else try this?

[AKBeemer]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/30/motorcycles-bicycles-can-run-red-lights-under-new-law/

CHICAGO (CBS) — Illinois motorcycles and bicycles will be allowed to run red lights starting in 2012, but only in certain instances.
Motorcycles and bicycles often aren’t big enough to trigger magnetic sensors that switch traffic lights from red to green, WBBM Newsradio’s Alex Degman reports.
That could mean the riders either break the law and run the red light, or wait until another vehicle comes along.
State Rep. Dan Beiser (D-Alton) says the new law means bikers can go through a red light if they wait a reasonable amount of time, but that amount isn’t yet defined.
“A reasonable amount of time, which was not defined in the bill, will be 120 seconds,” says Beiser. “So two minutes, that’s what we’ve come to agreement on and that was part of the governor’s concern.”
The governor issued an amendatory veto of the measure because he wanted a set amount of time the vehicles must wait.
But lawmakers overrode the veto, assuring the governor’s office it would be addressed during the upcoming session.
The law applies to municipalities with fewer than 2 million people, meaning it wouldn’t apply in Chicago.

[GeorgeK1200RS]

I have had some success shutting off the engine and restarting it. It works at some intersections.

Bought one of the expensive magnets from my dealer that was supposed to resolve the issue...it also worked at some intersections. I did not replace it after it fell off...may go for cow or rare earth.

Mostly have had to wait until traffic clears and proceed through the red light. Have changed lanes and turned right, usually get the attention of a 4 wheeler and get their approval to pull in front of them.

[hungstart]

When the signal fails to activate and no car comes along you are faced with several technically unlawful actions.However, I had a rather long argument on-line with a former LEO who's advice basically was "good luck with that" when the officer sees you.

So call it in, call it in, call it in, call it in. Most public works departments actually do want their signals to work correctly.In TN a couple of years ago they finally passed a law that says that if the light doesn't change for you on a motorcycle you can run the light without being cited for running the light.

[barryg]

I do it a lot in Memphis. One place is downtown at Jackson and Front heading to Arkansas to access I 40. That light must stay on Red forever. After a couple of minutes of waiting, when it's clear both ways, off I go. :thumb

[ANDYVH]

Someone commented about my suggestion to use cow magnets attached to the centerstand uprights: "The LAST thing I need is a cow stuck to my airhead."

Err,...wouldn't that go with the old saying about Airheads being "rubber cows".

Remember the ol' "Gummikuh Fahrer" stickers?

By the way, I still love my 76 R100RS.