The UN & Tsunami Relief (warning -- sorta political)

[basketcase]

I think all of us remain shocked and moved by the magnitude of the tragedy in Asia following the earthquake and Tsunami.

Now, the typical posturing is under way, and I ran across a poll that I thought might be interesting to post here. The basic question has to do with trust and the handling of money for the disaster relief efforts.

Personally, I think that for the (we line our pockets with food for oil money) UN gangsters to posture about being the right group to administer the efforts is hypocritical beyond description.

And once again, GWB was been misunderestimated. The well thought out plan to enlist former Presidents Bush and Clinton to head up the US effort borders on a stroke of genius, given the nature of the issue.

Former Presidents Bush & Clinton to Head Up US Tsunami Fund Raising (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6780798/)

But what say ye? Do you trust the UN to administer the funds, or not?

[Braddog]

The UN, such as it is, at least provides a decent way to provide this relief. Is it totally flawless? Will absolutely all funds go exactly where they should. My answer would be "NO" to both of those questions, but given the enormity of the tragedy, and the number of countries requiring aid, I think the UN provides an "OK" vehicle to provide relief.

That said, on a personal level, I think one should consider donations of money to the Red Cross efforts.

[GlobalRider]

But what say ye? Do you trust the UN to administer the funds, or not?

NO, but then I don't trust or give to charities. If they want a 50 pound bag of rice (or whatever), sure, I am more than willing. The trouble with money is it is too easy to mismanage and it corrupts people. People have a tough enough time managing their own personal finances, how do you expect them to manage someone else's.

[Cliffy777]

$$ or rice. it certainly sounds better (safer) to give food instead of just handing over money. however, too many of the debacles in africa and elsewhere have shown that giving food does not always mean that the food ends up feeding someone who is hungry. too often the powers that be get a stranglehold on the food and use it to line their own pockets and/or promote their own political agenda. shoot, folks were selling donated aids medications on the black market in europe that had been DONATED by european countries to help out in africa. that was mid-2004 i believe.
there are no easy answers. remember a couple of years ago everyone was a little p.o'ed at the red cross when it was revealed that not all $$$ donated for the 911 relief was going to 911 relief.
i guess the answer is to give to whomever you trust to get the job done.
personally i do not trust the u.n. at this point in time.

[YB in IN]

I'm not exactly all that trusting of the UN after the oil for food debacle (FYI the U.S. used something like 80% of that oil), but at the same time I'm not exactly sure who else should be put in charge of administering the aid. Yes, the Red Cross is a viable option, but they will have their detractors as well. If the U.S. were to try to do it on their own, we would once again be seen as bullies in the international community for trying to take over the aid, and I can only imagine what the outcry would be in predominately Muslim countries if we screw that one up. Why not allow some of the Scandinavian countries to try to take up some of the reigns on this one. They were hit probably the hardest population-wise in regard to missing tourists, and they have experience with large social welfare systems in their countries. Another option perhaps would be to form a coalition of different countries under the aspices of the UN to administer the rebuilding in conjunction with UNICEF or whatever arm of the UN is going to be heading up the effort. I usually don't wave the red W flag, but I think that he has made a wise move by having former presidents Bush and Clinton heading up the American end of things. Both had extensive experience in their terms as president/seantor/governor with dealing with national disasters. Also, I applaud the decision to send his brother Jeb in to try to get a feel for what is going on. It is a human tragedy that has happened over there, and there is even a greater tragedy waiting to happen if we don't get help to these people in a real hurry. Hopefully we can come together as a human family and take care of our fellow citizens of the world with a minimum of bickering, and get to the task at hand.

[Hodag]

My vote is for Halliburton to take over the re-building effort.
mark

[Visian]

My vote is for Halliburton to take over the re-building effort.


I agree. Let them line up deals with corporations based in the affected countries and then channel all US aid through this mechanism. Things will get done fastest and at the lowest possible cost.

Then let other governments do whatever the heck they want.

You can't trust the UN to do the right thing anymore (UNless it's to complain about the US, which was the first thing they elected to do in this situation) and I am afraid the same can be said for the International Red Cross.

Get the governments out of the way and things will get done better, faster and cheaper.

Ian

[YB in IN]

I agree. Let them line up deals with corporations based in the affected countries and then channel all US aid through this mechanism. Things will get done fastest and at the lowest possible cost.

Then let other governments do whatever the heck they want.

You can't trust the UN to do the right thing anymore (UNless it's to complain about the US, which was the first thing they elected to do in this situation) and I am afraid the same can be said for the International Red Cross.

Get the governments out of the way and things will get done better, faster and cheaper.

Ian

Lowest cost possible? Wait a minute, how much was Haliburton charging for gas in Iraq? Didn't they just get fined for that?

[kbasa]

I think W oughta get on the phone to WalMart, the world's largest logistics and retailing operation and let them deal with it. Enlist UPS, Fedex and the whole thing will flow like you can't believe. Tell WalMart to send all their drugs, household items and food stuffs to those islands for a couple weeks until we get things stabilized. In the meanwhile, the US is gonna have to deal for a bit, but we'll get by without any issue.

Get the assorted military operations, US and foreign, to deliver those items the last leg.

Send the bill to the UN and be done with it.

Wish I could take credit for that thought, but I pilfered it from some Idiot. I thought it was a terrific plan.

OH - and while I usually think W is about as sharp as a marble, recruiting both Clinton and his dad was a stroke of genius. Bipartisan. Serious power with those two gentlemen, I'd say.

[PGlaves]

While it is cynical, somehow this thread reminds me of the passage in the novel Elephant Song, by Wilbur Smith.

Foriegn aid is when poor people in rich countries send money to rich people in poor countries, to put in their Swiss bank accounts.

[GlobalRider]

however, too many of the debacles in africa and elsewhere have shown that giving food does not always mean that the food ends up feeding someone who is hungry. too often the powers that be get a stranglehold on the food and use it to line their own pockets and/or promote their own political agenda.

I know this for a fact. Someone I know used to go to Africa and volunteer two weeks of their vacation leave to help out. That is exactly what they saw happen.

But food isn't as fluid as money. Its harder trading rice for AK47s.

[BradfordBenn]

There is no right answer. I will say this though, there are people suffering all around the world so do what you think is best. Me personally, I have bought people food but won't give money to pan handlers.

Each person has to decide for themselves. :thumb

[JetDoc]

Warning… Warning… Warning… Rant in progress!

OK, I have never been known for being politically correct, but why the #@!! should I want to send money or food or anything else to some pissant country half a world away just because Mom Nature got angry and ruined their day?

When Mt St Hellens blew her top back in 1980 and messed up a good portion of the Pacific Northwest, did any other country come to our aid?

When the earthquakes tore up San Francisco back in the early 90’s, did any of these countries offer to help us out?

When the Mississippi floods every couple of years and causes millions of dollars in damage to crops and property, where was the UN and the rest of the world?

When hurricanes ripped through the southeast USA last year, and the years before that, where were the UN and the Indonesians? Did they offer to help us out with disaster relief funds?

When the jets crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on 9/11, did I see any of those guys in the white trucks and blue hats helping to rescue victims from the rubble?

Why does our Federal Government think that the solution for every problem is "Just throw money at it and it will all go away"?

Why is it necessary for us to give away $350 million of our hard earned tax dollars (and go deeper into debt) to help out a third-world country who would rather burn our flag and piss on our Constitution than shake our hand?

It’s time for the United States to stop being “Big Brother to the World.” Let’s stop throwing our money into these little rat-hole countries and start spending it to improve our own country! We need more (and better) schools, more cops, more firemen, more libraries, more parks, better highways… The list is endless! Every dollar we give away to the UN or some other bogus foreign aid program is one less dollar we have to spend on improving own infrastructure and the health and welfare of our own citizens!

Screw ‘em! Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

Rant over… You may resume your normal viewing…

[kbasa]

Think of it as sending a couple weeks worth of Iraq money to a slightly better use.

IMHO, anyway. :dunno

[gambrinus]

I have to say that I mostly agree with JetDoc.. It is tragic that all these people died, some were innocent children. Politically, some were pro-American. But the truth is that Jakarta Indonesia had some VERY pro-Iraq demonstrations against the great satan USA prior to their little run in with mother nature. Rather than letting them eat sand and mud and die in their own filth, I'd rather see them eating nice big meals out of boxes that say in big bold letters "RELIEF AID FROM THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" Let them sleep under blankets bearing the same message. Let them drink water from our fleet of warships off their shore that are running their desalination plants around the clock and shuttling fresh drinking water to shore. Let them receive medical care from our military MASH hospitals that are being set up. Let them have shelter under the thousands of tents that are being supplied. THEN maybe they will think twice about burning our flag.

RW

[YB in IN]

I have to say that I mostly agree with JetDoc.. It is tragic that all these people died, some were innocent children. Politically, some were pro-American. But the truth is that Jakarta Indonesia had some VERY pro-Iraq demonstrations against the great satan USA prior to their little run in with mother nature. Rather than letting them eat sand and mud and die in their own filth, I'd rather see them eating nice big meals out of boxes that say in big bold letters "RELIEF AID FROM THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" Let them sleep under blankets bearing the same message. Let them drink water from our fleet of warships off their shore that are running their desalination plants around the clock and shuttling fresh drinking water to shore. Let them receive medical care from our military MASH hospitals that are being set up. Let them have shelter under the thousands of tents that are being supplied. THEN maybe they will think twice about burning our flag.

RW

You can catch a hell of a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[YB in IN]

Warning… Warning… Warning… Rant in progress!

OK, I have never been known for being politically correct, but why the #@!! should I want to send money or food or anything else to some pissant country half a world away just because Mom Nature got angry and ruined their day?

When Mt St Hellens blew her top back in 1980 and messed up a good portion of the Pacific Northwest, did any other country come to our aid?

When the earthquakes tore up San Francisco back in the early 90’s, did any of these countries offer to help us out?

When the Mississippi floods every couple of years and causes millions of dollars in damage to crops and property, where was the UN and the rest of the world?

When hurricanes ripped through the southeast USA last year, and the years before that, where were the UN and the Indonesians? Did they offer to help us out with disaster relief funds?

When the jets crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on 9/11, did I see any of those guys in the white trucks and blue hats helping to rescue victims from the rubble?

Why does our Federal Government think that the solution for every problem is "Just throw money at it and it will all go away"?

Why is it necessary for us to give away $350 million of our hard earned tax dollars (and go deeper into debt) to help out a third-world country who would rather burn our flag and piss on our Constitution than shake our hand?

It’s time for the United States to stop being “Big Brother to the World.” Let’s stop throwing our money into these little rat-hole countries and start spending it to improve our own country! We need more (and better) schools, more cops, more firemen, more libraries, more parks, better highways… The list is endless! Every dollar we give away to the UN or some other bogus foreign aid program is one less dollar we have to spend on improving own infrastructure and the health and welfare of our own citizens!

Screw ‘em! Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

Rant over… You may resume your normal viewing…

You do raise some interesting points in regard to other countries helping with aid. If I recall however, it is the Red Cross that comes to the aid of people in this country as well as in countries around the world who are displaced by natural disasters. However, I politely must disagree with you in regard to your other points that seem to be an isolationist attitude for America towards the rest of the world. An American foreign policy that doesn't try to reach out to other parts of the world will only lead us to more of the same situations that we find ourselves in. I'm not trying to be an apologist for the scum of the earth. Please understand this. However, if I was a young man or woman in one of these countries affected and heard such a position from an American citizen, I can't imagine that I would feel too warm and fuzzy in regard to America. Our government is trying to work with these governments, especially that of Indonesia and of India, to forge relations that we can use to our mutual benefit. We need to continue the cooperation that we have started in the last few years after the fall of the dictator Suharto in Indonesia to insure that we don't create another Iraq or Afghanistan in the most populous Muslim country in the world. Perhaps the child who is getting the food, shelter, and clothing from the United States now will think twice when approached by an Al-Queda recruiter outside of their place of worship, or will decide to not follow a radical cleric and instead embrace the teachings of another who teaches non-violent Islam. I'm sorry, but we are world citizens, everything has an affect somewhere else. And by the way, what happened to that whole love your neighbor as yourself thing? I don't remember the part in the sermon on the mount when Jesus said to love everyone as long as they live in the same country as you and as long as they agree with you. But I don't know, maybe I missed that part.

[jgr451]

It saddens me to see fine Americans do the head in the sand nimby thing even now...as it was until 1917,as it was until 1941,some Americans still do not get the idea of noblesse oblige.They that are blessed to have the most,need to express their gratitude by helping the abysmally poor and abject when the chips are down.
America has delivered a million dollars a day by sending one aircraft carrier to the relief of the unfortunate.You/they will always be there firstest,and with the mostest.Who cares what some UN bureaucrat said?

As Romeo Dallaire (and others ) have said,are "they" less human than "we"?

The UN is a tired organization,but is it realistic to suggest that any organization that has less than that sort of world stature,can deliver the goods?Sure,Rotary,Red Cross, Medecins sans Frontieres,OXFAM,UNICEF;the ancient tension between the US and the UN is ,how much does the US still owe to the UN to meet its paper commitments?Still,the UN is the one that can move mountains...slowly maybe,but eventually.How many fine Americans have devoted themselves to that concept?

The US will do more than its share to help the destitute,BECAUSE,in my opinion,that is America's place in this world.

Well.. I certainly do not wish to offend.My friends and I from our small town raised and sent $3200 to the Canadian Red Cross to help.Not that that is a great big thing,and not because we had to,but because it was the right thing to do.Many others in my small town donated more,and you will find that the largesse of the Canadian people and of our government,will be in proportion to yours.For we are blessed.Others are not.

[knary]

This poll isn't "sorta political", it is entirely political. Do I "trust" the UN? I trust that they, as part of a larger effort, will do what they can to help. I do trust that money will be mismanaged and that corruption will siphon away some of what we offer in aide. But so goes any large human endeavor. Please don't let this ugly slice of the human equation stop you from offering what you can to those that deeply need it.

The simple fact is that we are part of the international community. We rely on the cheap labor and intellectual exports of the region affected. We rely on foreign investment. We rely on cheap(er) foreign goods. We depend on foreign energy resources. We depend on foreign markets for our crops. And so on. We are a far cry from a self sufficient nation, and so it goes for every nation on the planet. I am not suggesting that we give up our sovereignty, but it would be foolish and blind to pretend that we are not deeply intertwined into the fates of the other inhabitants of this planet.

And if you wish to compare the natural disasters within our own nation to this one, you will have a very difficult time finding a parallel. Hurricane Andrew killed 23 (this number varies depending on the source) in 1992, the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989 killed 35, and Mt.St.Helens killed 57 (many of whom had chosen poorly to be on an erupting volcano) in 1980. We have *no* parallel to the tragedy in SE Asia where the death toll is pushing towards 160,000! If your heart doesn't break when you see the images and hear the stories coming from the region, I can only guess that you have little to no regard for your fellow human beings.



p.s. If you're looking for a place to offer some assistance, my wife and I donated through one of the best aide organizations around...
Mercy Corps (http://www.mercycorps.org/)

[Visian]

Lowest cost possible? Wait a minute, how much was Haliburton charging for gas in Iraq? Didn't they just get fined for that?

Garth -- I think you missed my point.... both in my idea and in the situation you point to in Iraq.

IIRC, the people in Iraq actually *got* the gas. I believe that no other company on earth could have delivered that gas at *twice* the price... and that Halliburton is being hounded for political purposes.

And... I believe the same as Kbasa does: that private businesses are the most practical solution to the problem.

*Definitely* not government organizations.

Ian

[Visian]

If your heart doesn't break when you see the images and hear the stories coming from the region, I can only guess that you have little to no regard for your fellow human beings.

Ohmigosh, something that Scott and I agree on!

:)

There's no way that we, as people on this planet, can turn our backs on the people that are suffering through this tragedy.

Also, I think that the UN's initial reaction to the situation is very telling. Something new needs to happen. The UN is in the past.

Ian

[BklynPete]

i gave to the red cross, because, good or bad they're there everytime, whether it is in the states or elsewhere. i lost two friends in 911, but if the red cross wanted to divert some funds to help future needs, then fine with me. as far as the un goes, i have always felt that they should move their facilities from nyc to some third world country and this way the diplomates would have to do something instead of just having a cushy assignment. maybe being an ex new yorker (who can still be there in an hour) the un has been a sore point for me. having diplomates take up parking spaces and not paying tickets because they have diplomatic immunity is a case in point. getting back to the original thread, when you have over 100k people dying, you have to be very heartless not to want to do something.

pete

[kbasa]

I have to say that I'm absolutely stunned at the callousness I see reflected in the poll above.

Sorry, folks, but that really, really disappoints me. The motorcycle people I know will go out of their way to help a fellow rider that's stuck, but I can't believe so many of us would turn their back on someone that has had everything they own, including their family, swept away in a few minutes.

How sad. How horribly sad.

[rocketman]

You do raise some interesting points in regard to other countries helping with aid. If I recall however, it is the Red Cross that comes to the aid of people in this country as well as in countries around the world who are displaced by natural disasters. However, I politely must disagree with you in regard to your other points that seem to be an isolationist attitude for America towards the rest of the world. An American foreign policy that doesn't try to reach out to other parts of the world will only lead us to more of the same situations that we find ourselves in. I'm not trying to be an apologist for the scum of the earth. Please understand this. However, if I was a young man or woman in one of these countries affected and heard such a position from an American citizen, I can't imagine that I would feel too warm and fuzzy in regard to America. Our government is trying to work with these governments, especially that of Indonesia and of India, to forge relations that we can use to our mutual benefit. We need to continue the cooperation that we have started in the last few years after the fall of the dictator Suharto in Indonesia to insure that we don't create another Iraq or Afghanistan in the most populous Muslim country in the world. Perhaps the child who is getting the food, shelter, and clothing from the United States now will think twice when approached by an Al-Queda recruiter outside of their place of worship, or will decide to not follow a radical cleric and instead embrace the teachings of another who teaches non-violent Islam. I'm sorry, but we are world citizens, everything has an affect somewhere else. And by the way, what happened to that whole love your neighbor as yourself thing? I don't remember the part in the sermon on the mount when Jesus said to love everyone as long as they live in the same country as you and as long as they agree with you. But I don't know, maybe I missed that part.

I gotta agree with the above and add that we (as a country and people) can not afford to practice "isolationism" and was once proposed many years ago. Like it or not we (the world) are ONE people sharing a single tiny ball of rock in an incredibly vast universe and if we are all to survive we have to learn to look beyond our borders to see the world as one. And consider that we are one of the richest countries in the world, both economic and in available resources. For many of the countries involved they don’t have enough to begin with, so then why would we expect them to send us aid? That would be like expecting a beggar by the side of the road giving his last coin to the passing nobleman.

If you have never been to that part of the world and lived there for a time, it is very difficult to understand just how little they have in comparison to most western nations.

And consider this too, when there are natural disasters in the US, consider how the loss of life, the time it takes for help to arrive and the overall impact from those disasters compares to that seen recently in the far east, that right there should tell you something of how much better equipped we are to deal with such occurrences and knowing that how can we NOT help? If not for the people, consider the political implications of turning our backs on them?

One of my favorite quotes is from a book of pictures taken from space by various members of the shuttle crews over the years. In one set of photographs taken by a Middle-Eastern (as in the Mediterranean Sea area) passenger goes something like this
“On the first day passing over the Mediterranean Sea I pointed and said “Look there is my home Country”, on the next day I said “Look there is my home Continent” by the third day I said (pointing to the entire globe) “Look, there is my Home”. It was then that I realized we are all one people! You can’t have looked upon the world from space and NOT come to this same realization”.

During my first 18 years growing up overseas I came to the same realization and ever since then have held that same belief, we indeed are all “One People”. As such we should help others where we can regardless of whether they help us, just as I would stop for other riders by the side of the road regardless of whether they would stop for me.

RM

[JetDoc]

Rather than letting them eat sand and mud and die in their own filth, I'd rather see them eating nice big meals out of boxes that say in big bold letters "RELIEF AID FROM THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" Let them sleep under blankets bearing the same message. Let them drink water from our fleet of warships off their shore that are running their desalination plants around the clock and shuttling fresh drinking water to shore. Let them receive medical care from our military MASH hospitals that are being set up. Let them have shelter under the thousands of tents that are being supplied. THEN maybe they will think twice about burning our flag.

RW

OK, I agree that the death toll from this latest disaster is a tragedy, and is reaching biblical proportions, but we (The United States) have been giving the world blankets and food and water and medical care and money for more than 50 years, and what have we got in return?

We have been rubbing their noses in the fact that we have it all and they don't. All we have accomplished by throwing money at them is fostering more resentment against "The Great Satan USA."

It's time to revise our policies and start demanding that the rest of the world do something for themselves for a change.

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime."

[rocketman]

OK, I agree that the death toll from this latest disaster is a tragedy, and is reaching biblical proportions, but we (The United States) have been giving the world blankets and food and water and medical care and money for more than 50 years, and what have we got in return?


Giving isn't about what you get in return it's about doing what is right esp. when you have the ability

We have been rubbing their noses in the fact that we have it all and they don't. All we have accomplished by throwing money at them is fostering more resentment against "The Great Satan USA."

Not quite sure why you think we have been rubbing thier noses in it, or why you think that is the reason there is resentment against us. I think there are much larger reasons for any resentment felt against us nor do I think that is the prevailing attitude, at least among the general populance, based on my personal experiances while overseas.

It's time to revise our policies and start demanding that the rest of the world do something for themselves for a change.

"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime."

those two comments seem contradictory, how can they learn to fish if they are not given the tools and knowledge to do so, and how can that be done by turning our backs on the rest of the world, if that is what is meant by reversing our policies?

In fact that is exactly what many of our dollars are spent doing, i.e. teaching and giving third world countries the tools to better themselves, not just dumping dollars in thier coffers. The relief effort is different in that it is attempting to solve immediate needs first, then helping them rebuild themselves.

Let me ask you this: if a poor man passed you as you lay in a ditch unable to rise, passed you because he could tell you were “better off” than him, would you not resent him for not stopping to help, and would you resent him more for not stopping or for being poor? Now reverse the above with him lying in the ditch unable to rise, and you passing him by without stopping, do you think he would resent you more for not stopping or for being “better off”?

RM

[rocketman]

I have to say that I'm absolutely stunned at the callousness I see reflected in the poll above.

Sorry, folks, but that really, really disappoints me. The motorcycle people I know will go out of their way to help a fellow rider that's stuck, but I can't believe so many of us would turn their back on someone that has had everything they own, including their family, swept away in a few minutes.

How sad. How horribly sad.

If that is true, then I'm glad I have not looked at the results and I think my last two posts clearly state where I stand on the matter, 'nough said.
:cry

RM

[kbasa]

During my first 18 years growing up overseas I came to the same realization and ever since then have held that same belief, we indeed are all “One People”. As such we should help others where we can regardless of whether they help us, just as I would stop for other riders by the side of the road regardless of whether they would stop for me.

RM

Altruism separates us from the animals, IMHO.

[JetDoc]

Not quite sure why you think we have been rubbing thier noses in it, or why you think that is the reason there is resentment against us. I think there are much larger reasons for any resentment felt against us nor do I think that is the prevailing attitude, at least among the general populance, based on my personal experiances while overseas.

RM

Perhaps my world view is different than your's because of where I have been... I served in our country's armed forces for more than twenty years. I have dodged bullets in VietNam and other places in the world. I have seen people bow and scrape for a handout of food or clothing, and then try to shoot us in the back as we walked away while we were patting ourselves on the back because of the "Good" that we have done.

I have been in Thailand, the Phillipines, Puerto Rico and other places where the people strongly resent the United States because of our wealth and power. I have been in places where "Yanqui Go Home" is not just a cute slogan on the wall, but a real attitude of the people who just don't want us interfereing in their lives.

those two comments seem contradictory, how can they learn to fish if they are not given the tools and knowledge to do so, and how can that be done by turning our backs on the rest of the world, if that is what is meant by reversing our policies?

RM

My point is that we are NOT "teaching them to fish" but just throwing money at them. How many Billions of American dollars have been sent overseas since the end of WWII for "Military aid" How much of our foreign aid money went to build Sadam Hussein's palaces, or to keep other petty dictators in power? How much American money has been given to African warlords and South American drug dealers so they can continue to exploit their own people in the name of more power and greed?

We, the people of the United States of America need to stop trying to make every other country in the world be just like us, and just leave them alone to lead their own lives the way they want to lead them! If they want us to help them build a school or a hospital, we can do that, but where does it say that we have the right to tell them how to run their schools, or how to practice medicine?

Let me ask you this: if a poor man passed you as you lay in a ditch unable to rise, passed you because he could tell you were “better off” than him, would you not resent him for not stopping to help, and would you resent him more for not stopping or for being poor? Now reverse the above with him lying in the ditch unable to rise, and you passing him by without stopping, do you think he would resent you more for not stopping or for being “better off”?

RM
Huh?

[knary]

Altruism separates us from the animals, IMHO.

Actually, altruism can be found in many large brained mammals. What separates us is that we have even bigger brains and busily try to draw lines between us and them. :D

"Man is a tool maker. Animals aren't."
"What about the chimpanzee?"
"Ok. We are altruistic."
"What about the elephant?"
"Ok. We manipulate our environment."
"What about the beaver, the termite, the elephant, the bird, ...."
"Ok. We were made in God's image."
"What does God look like?"
"Shut up."

:D

[kbasa]

We, the people of the United States of America need to stop trying to make every other country in the world be just like us, and just leave them alone to lead their own lives the way they want to lead them!

How do you feel about Iraq, now that we know there are no WMD and there wasn't a tie to Al-Qaeda?

Not trying to start a fight, just curious about your feelings in light of your statement above.

FWIW, I agree with you that our role on the planet shouldn't be empire building, nation building or any of that stuff, but I do think we have a responsibility to help when we can.

[Cliffy777]

i have a couple of thoughts. kbasa is upset at the poll result, but i think you might be forgetting the question asked in the poll. the question is "do we trust the UN to adminstrate etc etc". the nays are ahead of the ayes, but the question was not "Should US citizens stand by and not lift a hand to their wallets to help those whose lives have been shattered by a tsunami".
granted there are a couple folks on here who do not think we should "throw money" at the problem, but having just read all of the posts i think the general trend favors compassionate behavior and the willingness to help.
it does make one hesitant to hand over $$ or food when one is not sure the $$ or food will actually benefit those who need it.
when i was a younger man (circa 1975) i participated in the model united nations program in my high school. our school represented the us that year and we studied for months to prepare for several days of "session" which was held at a local university with high school teams from all over the state of michigan acting as other countries. the idea was to closely reflect the "real" united nations. well - those other countries had very little to say in favor of the US, they much preferred to take pot shots and criticize our every move. to me, not much has changed. no wonder we as a group do not want to trust them with $$/food.
i agree with the post suggesting the un move it's hq to some third world back alley, THEN let us see how things might change if the "diplomats" were not living a limo-ride away from luxurious dwellings and eateries.
my .02

[kbasa]

Good point, Cliffy.

There's big difference between the poll as stated and the way I read the results. Thanks.

dave

[JetDoc]

How do you feel about Iraq, now that we know there are no WMD and there wasn't a tie to Al-Qaeda?

Not trying to start a fight, just curious about your feelings in light of your statement above.

FWIW, I agree with you that our role on the planet shouldn't be empire building, nation building or any of that stuff, but I do think we have a responsibility to help when we can.

I've said all along that "Bush the First" stopped our troops too soon during the first Desert Storm. We should have continued into Baghdad and took Sadam down while we were there the first time, with much more support from the other nations of the world. To go in a second time, with just the British for support was not a well conceived plan.

[JetDoc]

Everyone for moving the UN headquarters to Baghdad, raise their hand! :wave

[rocketman]

Perhaps my world view is different than your's because of where I have been... I served in our country's armed forces for more than twenty years. I have dodged bullets in VietNam and other places in the world. I have seen people bow and scrape for a handout of food or clothing, and then try to shoot us in the back as we walked away while we were patting ourselves on the back because of the "Good" that we have done.

I have been in Thailand, the Phillipines, Puerto Rico and other places where the people strongly resent the United States because of our wealth and power. I have been in places where "Yanqui Go Home" is not just a cute slogan on the wall, but a real attitude of the people who just don't want us interfereing in their lives.



My point is that we are NOT "teaching them to fish" but just throwing money at them. How many Billions of American dollars have been sent overseas since the end of WWII for "Military aid" How much of our foreign aid money went to build Sadam Hussein's palaces, or to keep other petty dictators in power? How much American money has been given to African warlords and South American drug dealers so they can continue to exploit their own people in the name of more power and greed?

We, the people of the United States of America need to stop trying to make every other country in the world be just like us, and just leave them alone to lead their own lives the way they want to lead them! If they want us to help them build a school or a hospital, we can do that, but where does it say that we have the right to tell them how to run their schools, or how to practice medicine?


Huh?
I too have been in those parts of the world, i.e. Thialand, southeast asia during the war era, mid 60's and oddly enough have formed an entirely different view than yours, however I was a civilian not military, and I can see that having someone shoot at you could effect your outlook toward the people you encountered. However that doesn't lead to the conclution that they ALL wanted us dead and gone, nore that most of the world see us (the US) in that light. I also lived in Africa and again did not feel that the people I encountered held me in distain.

As for the US aid program, my father worked for the Agency for International Development (AID, US state department) and I took numerous trips with him into the hills of Thailand to visit with the hill tribes and from what I saw what they were being provided with were the tools to help themselves not handouts. I discussed this with my father and others many times in the light of what we thought was being acomplished and the overriding conclution that I could reach was that indeed the goal of the programs was to provide self-help.

As for the last statement think about it some more there is a moral buried in there somewhere.

And I would add that to denigh anyone in need for politcal reasons is, in my view, just plain cold hearted, as others have also stated, I would hope that anyone with the means to help would be willing to do so regardless of the politics of those in need.

And that all I'm going to say on the matter. We obviously have different takes on what we saw/experianced.

RM

[kbasa]

To go in a second time, with just the British for support was not a well conceived plan.

JetDoc, I'm in full agreement with you there.

[BradfordBenn]

To me this thread just proves that motorcyclists are like everyone else, lots of opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own, and everyone has to live the way they think is right.

Just so long as you don't tell me that my opinions is wrong I am fine with that. :thumb

[rocketman]

To me this thread just proves that motorcyclists are like everyone else, lots of opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own, and everyone has to live the way they think is right.

Just so long as you don't tell me that my opinions is wrong I am fine with that. :thumb
Your opinions are fine, but your grammer needs help! :D (opinions is (?) )

RM (you DO know i'm just ribbin ya, right?)

[Visian]

How do you feel about Iraq, now that we know there are no WMD and there wasn't a tie to Al-Qaeda?


Dave -- you really need to read this book:

America's Secret War. (http://www.americassecretwar.com/)

Ian

[widebmw]

This is a copy from the R1150 forum copied from a blog, so it must be true. :dunno

Diplomad with More UN Posing.--Diplomad continues its string of reports on UN tsunami efforts in Asia. It seems that the UN is trying to take credit for US and Australian efforts:

A colleague came back from a meeting held by the local UN representative yesterday and reported that the UN rep had said that while it was a good thing that the Australians and Americans were running the air ops into tsunami-wrecked Aceh, for cultural and political reasons, those Australians and Americans really "should go blue." In other words, they should switch into UN uniforms and give up their national ones.

[kbasa]

Dave -- you really need to read this book:

America's Secret War. (http://www.americassecretwar.com/)

Ian

Over the next month, I've probably got 30 hours of airplane time coming, along with untold hours in hotel rooms. This might be just the ticket.

But first, I have to finish Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer (http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/catalog/display.pperl?0385509510).

[PacWestGS]

Oh My God, I don't know if I want to get into this one or not, but.

JetDoc has many interesting points and a position to post them from, I agree with many of them. But, differ on his pro-isolationist attitude. I too spent over 20-years in the military. Closer to now, than, then. I retired as a Special Forces, Master Sergeant, three-years ago. I spent 10-years of that time as a Special Forces Medic building hospitals and treating people all over the the south pacific and southeast Asia. (I am married to a Thai woman because of it). It was, and will continue to be one of the highlights of my life. Having said that, it is incomprehensible to believe that a single American person can say or think that we should keep our hard earned money to ourselves under the circumstances that occured.

Yes, as the wealthiest nation on earth we do not expect other countries to send us financial aid under any situation, 9/11, tornados, huricanes, etc. etc... This is and will always be our number one foreign policy, to send what ever we can to less than ideal countries around the world. It's what keeps us being the number one country in the world. (When your number one, everybody hates you) Just like you hate your boss, the politicians that make the rules, the police that enforce them, etc.

We can only hope that what ever the master plan is (whether you are, or not a believer) is that the world can come closer to realizing that we are all "PEOPLE" and what ever your situation is; there is either someone to help you or sh#t on you. I choose to help, because after you've been sh#t on your whole life you tend to hate more than the life you've been given. The good 'old US of A choose to sh#t on people of the middle-east in the late '70's and since then and look what that got us.

I know quite a bit about our history, the failed foreign policies that we had and the successful ones that led to the end of the 'Cold War' which I fought in everyday until it was over. "That one was, 'Bankrupt was your advesary".

The people around the Indian Ocean have been devastated by mother-nature, set aside your personal ideology, your complaints abouts who is, who is not, and whether the UN is functional or corrupt as an institution. (I pesonally believe it is corrupt) but it will get the necessary resources to the right place in the big picture. The only other option is: to shoulder the whole responsibility on ourselves and send in the military, that will cost more than the relief operation and the American people can afford right now.

My mantra during the time I spent as a 'Civil Affairs Specialist': "I'm here, to help you, help yourself". That's what we need here, provide them with the resouces and stand back. They will know where that help came from.

That is what the government can do right now, next year, five years from now and for ever.

There are only two kinds of 'Humanitarian Aid' rice. The bag that's stamped 'Compliments of the USA, or Japan'. There is no other, no matter who gave it away...

There are people who will disagree with me and that's OK.

I've been there, done that. And didn't want the T-Shirt. (I've got a lot of T-Shirts)

[jgr451]

Well said SFDOC.
Thanks.

[Visian]

The good 'old US of A choose to sh#t on people of the middle-east in the late '70's and since then and look what that got us.

Yep. And even well before the 70s.

We forgot where we came from, did some incredibly stupid things vis-a-vis the mujahadeen and the leaders of the countries they lived in, and now we're stuck cleaning up the mess.

The only thing we can do now, both in the mideast and in the tsunami disaster, is to do what made this country great. *That* will work every time.

Great post, SFDOC.

Ian

[BradfordBenn]

Your opinions are fine, but your grammer needs help! :D (opinions is (?) )

RM (you DO know i'm just ribbin ya, right?)

My grammar is fine, just like yer spelling. :stick

:brad

[BradfordBenn]

Nice post SFDOC :thumb

[rocketman]

My grammar is fine, just like yer spelling. :stick

:brad
u'r quiet rite, speelin ain't not never ben ma strong pointe!

RM (at least I Think it's spelled RM ??)