At the light waiting and waiting and waiting and...

[Maylett]

Every now and again, I'll find myself first in line at a stop light waiting for the left turn arrow to appear so that I can turn. I know of at least a couple of dozen lights in town where a motorcycle just doesn't seem to activate the pressure plate, or whatever it is, to cause the light to change. As often as not, a car will pull up behind me, so after a couple of rotations through the light changing, I'm left with little choice other than to run the light hoping that no police officers are watching and that I don't get mowed down by the cross traffic.

I don't suppose I'm the only one who's run into this problem, but I'd be interested to know if anyone here has ever been ticketed for doing this.

[widebmw]

I have read about magnets that you put on your bike that may work but some say they don't work.
A coil of wire around the bottom of your bike that goes to the bikes power with a push switch will work.
You push the button when you are over a manhole and pick up the cover and ride over the sensors at the light.:heh
Be sure to take the manhole cover back to where you lifted it.:laugh

[Andy VH]

In Wisconsin, like some other states, if you on your bike are the only one at the light and it has not changed in over 45 seconds, it is legally to your discretion to run through the red light. I have done it many times.

[MCMXCIVRS]

I have only rarely encountered this, and after a reasonable wait time, I opt to proceed when safe to do so.

If you are having this happen frequently, contact your local traffic department and let them know they need to repair the signals.

[deilenberger]

I've been known to get off the bike and walk over to press the pedestrian button.. much to the amusement of the riders with me.

If there is right-turn-on-red available, sometimes I'll use that, then go up to the first driveway/parking lot on the left and turn around, and come back to the light and turn right again. PITA - and usually when I do that - the light is red for me again since some car that was behind me at the non-changing light triggered it.

Hints for getting it to trigger.. older lights use inductive loops embedded in the pavement. The loops can be square or diamond shaped (later ones use the diamond shape). Try to end up with the largest metallic mass on the bike (generally the engine) over one of the lines or for the diamond ones - one of the corners of the diamond. The loops don't respond to non-ferris bits - but they do respond to a crankshaft spinning around in the engine, so that's what I try to center. Sometimes reaching down with a toe and pushing the centerstand down so it touches the ground seems to help, or it's my imagination.

A big enough magnet will likely help - but the ones sold for this purpose aren't all that big. I do have an old radar-magnetron magnet kicking around in my garage, and I'd try it - but it weighs something over 20lbs, and is rather large..
http://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/users/6435/vm_tubes/magnetron/Pic1_7.jpg - the one in the bottom left corner.. it's about 5"x5"x4"..

Other sources of "free" powerful magnets can be found in junk.. http://www.sas.org/E-Bulletin/2002-10-25/labNotes/body.html (great fun website..)

But I digress..

Newer "smart" lights use heat detecting cameras. These are the tubular things you see pointing in your general direction from one of the overhead bits when you pull up to the light. You want to be where the camera is looking directly at the bike, so it picks up the engine heat signiture.

When a particular light doesn't respond - it is worth tracking down the responsible authority (local government, county, state DOT, etc..) and asking that it be adjusted. I've never had one refuse - and it always seems they get it right after being asked (nicely.)

[Greenwald]

Every now and again, I'll find myself first in line at a stop light waiting for the left turn arrow to appear so that I can turn. I know of at least a couple of dozen lights in town where a motorcycle just doesn't seem to activate the pressure plate, or whatever it is, to cause the light to change. As often as not, a car will pull up behind me, so after a couple of rotations through the light changing, I'm left with little choice other than to run the light hoping that no police officers are watching and that I don't get mowed down by the cross traffic.

I don't suppose I'm the only one who's run into this problem, but I'd be interested to know if anyone here has ever been ticketed for doing this.

It's not pressure (i.e. weight), but rather the presence of enough ferous metal to cause a readable change (flux) in the magnetic field of a coil beneath you.

Positioing near a corner of the cuts in the concrete may help, but nothing (magnets, posture, sidestands, etc.) seems foolproof.

Consider finding out if Utah has the same 'Red Light Law' that we have here in Wisconsin. If not, PM me and I will send you the written statute, which you can forward to a state represenative along with a plea for similar language in your neck of the woods.

[Newstar]

You can often see the lines on the road marking the sensors. I try to stop on top of one. I've been told that if you put your side stand down on top of one, it will trigger but I haven't tried that. Another thing I've heard is to attach a large magnet to the bottom of your bike somewhere.

[PGlaves]

When a traffic signal malfunctions you are supposed to treat it like a 4 way stop. Make a full stop and proceed when the way is clear and it is safe to do so. Since the signal is supposed to detect vehicles in the left turn lane and fails to do so, that is a malfunction.

So, that is what I would do, and what I would say to an officer who stopped me for doing it. It is also what I would say to the judge should the officer decide to cite me.

In the meantime if you have identified a certain signal that does this routinely you should call it in to the public works or traffic engineering department responsible for maintenance on the signal. Especially if it is one you encounter regularly. Then if an officer should take exception to your actions you have the record of the malfunction reports to show the judge too. And they may be able to fix it even, by adjusting the loop sensitivity.

[Peter_Krynicki]

This would happen to me at one particular light near where I live. Since it's so easy to do so now-a-days, I posted a question on the city's web page dealing with traffic. The response was that these are adjustable to a certain extent and that they would have someone take a look.

Sure enough, a week later the bike set off the traps and the light changed.

[R184]

Even though the Calif. Veh. Code now requires that stop lights be set-up to detect motorcycles, there are still a lot of lights that don't. But doesn't matter where I live anyway.

We have plenty of stop lights (in fact waaay too many), it's just they're always red. The "running" joke is if you hit three green lights, then you go buy a lotto ticket, because it's your lucky day.

So I just plan my routes around the lights. It usually a longer route, but less traffic and more fun anyway...

[Holly]

My 250 Virago often didn't trigger the lights, so I treated them as 4-way stops after a reasonable wait time. OTOH, the bike didn't trigger the cameras which are used to bill you on the 407 which bypasses Toronto and is likely the most expensive toll road in the world. I'm going to miss that bike when the bills arrive this year!

[angysdad]

Never used one...don't know if they work...but I've heard of these.

http://www.whitehorsegear.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=red+light+trigger

[angysdad]

The single review on the site (from my previous post) says he likes it.

Another solution...add a sidecar...more metal should trigger that darn light:stick

[mistercindy]

Years ago it happened more often than it does now. These days it rarely happens. In fact, I can't even remember the last time. That's particularly true in relatively new intersections in the suburbs. My guess is that the newer mechanisms or magnets or whatever are better or more sensitive. Its funny, but even though it practically never happens anymore I'm still surprised when I get the arrow! I'm also still pleased to have a cage pull up behind me so I know the mechanism is clicked!

But when it does happen I let it go through one complete cycle, then if it skips me a second time I'll just go when its clear. If I get pulled over for it I'll have no problem explaining that to a police officer or judge. If I ultimately get fined, then so be it.

BTW, many years ago I knew a guy who claimed to have taken care of the problem by welding an old railroad spike to the bottom of his bike.

[PGlaves]

The latest systems are a lot better than the old ones. Those using inductive loops have greater sensitivity (detect you) and selectivity (but not a car in the adjacent lane). And, many jurisdictions are going to optical sensors mounted on the mast arm facing the lane. This avoids disturbing the loops every time the intersection is milled and overlayed with new asphalt. Now I don't know for sure but suppose little skinny folk on tiddler bikes will be at a disadvantage compared to very large folk with huge frontal area riding big bikes. I suspect that Big Al riding his Boss Hoss doesn't have a problem with either system.

[mXarad]

Someone mentioned the mast-mounted sensors
are infrared optical. They should pick up the heat from the
headlamp, I would think.
mXa

[83014]

But when it does happen I let it go through one complete cycle, then if it skips me a second time I'll just go when its clear.


The law was recently changed in NC to address this problem. This is actually the legal way to clear an intersection when the vehicle can't trip the light. I have also started reporting nonresponsive signals to the appropriate agency. Some can be adjusted, some can't. A signal that doesn't respond to a motorcycle is legally defined as malfunctioning , but only for the affected motorcyclist.

[PGlaves]

The law was recently changed in NC to address this problem. This is actually the legal way to clear an intersection when the vehicle can't trip the light. I have also started reporting nonresponsive signals to the appropriate agency. Some can be adjusted, some can't. A signal that doesn't respond to a motorcycle is legally defined as malfunctioning , but only for the affected motorcyclist.

This truly amuses me. The law in virtually all states, for a very long time has permitted this under the general rule: if a signal malfunctions treat it like a 4-way stop. I learned that back in Driver's Ed and that was 1959.

But since both the LEOs and the general public seem to have trouble understanding the general rule, legislatures have to spell it out in gory detail: if the signal doesn't detect a two wheeled self propelled vehicle, that condition is hereby defined to qualify as a malfunction; and the operator of the such vehicle is entitled to follow the general rule of treat it as a 4-way stop, except to further clarify they probably have to specify you are supposed to wait x number of cycles or until a full moon whichever comes first, and then must proceed only when the nearest vehicle is at least 1,322 feet distant, measured on the roadway centerline or its arc tangent if curved, or has red fenders. And then we wonder why we have to have so many laws.

We have met the enemy, it is us!! For sure!

[chris_d]

My 250 Virago often didn't trigger the lights, so I treated them as 4-way stops after a reasonable wait time. OTOH, the bike didn't trigger the cameras which are used to bill you on the 407 which bypasses Toronto and is likely the most expensive toll road in the world. I'm going to miss that bike when the bills arrive this year!

Holly, I'm sure the 407 entry and exit ramps have cameras that take a pic of your plate. Your lack of toll bills is due to:
a) a damaged, missing or obscured rear plate
b) you exit the ramp at warp speed and well over to the left or right of a lane:nono

Cheers, Chris

[Greenwald]

This truly amuses me. The law in virtually all states, for a very long time has permitted this under the general rule: if a signal malfunctions treat it like a 4-way stop. I learned that back in Driver's Ed and that was 1959.

But since both the LEOs and the general public seem to have trouble understanding the general rule, legislatures have to spell it out in gory detail: if the signal doesn't detect a two wheeled self propelled vehicle, that condition is hereby defined to qualify as a malfunction; and the operator of the such vehicle is entitled to follow the general rule of treat it as a 4-way stop, except to further clarify they probably have to specify you are supposed to wait x number of cycles or until a full moon whichever comes first, and then must proceed only when the nearest vehicle is at least 1,322 feet distant, measured on the roadway centerline or its arc tangent if curved, or has red fenders. And then we wonder why we have to have so many laws.

We have met the enemy, it is us!! For sure!

Greetings, Paul. Not picking a fight here (great respect for your mechanical talent), but......

Things have progressed (or regressed - point of view, I suppose) since your 1959 driver education.

There is no 'general rule' that I am aware of, and the 'if it didn't detect me, I can treat it as a four-way stop' most certainly will get you busted in Wisconsin, and many other states.

That 'logic' is a bit too convuluted - sort of like a 'jailhouse lawyer,' as we used to refer to prisoners who were sure they knew the law better than 'us LEO's.'

I don't know every nook and crany of our legal system - no one does, but being ignored by the variable sensitivity of a signal loop is not carte blanche permission to 'jump' to a different, more convinient interpretation at an intersection.

I urge you not to be that confident, should your bike not trip a sensor. When the Judge can't find this 'general rule,' your day could end badly.

Afterall, if you're locked up, how will we get all that great advice on maintaining our Beemers?! :stick

[henzilla]

Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...:brow

[Holly]

Holly, I'm sure the 407 entry and exit ramps have cameras that take a pic of your plate. Your lack of toll bills is due to:
a) a damaged, missing or obscured rear plate
b) you exit the ramp at warp speed and well over to the left or right of a lane:nono

Cheers, Chris

Chris, if I can't get a clear shot at the cameras, without any cages going through at the same time, I do get a bill. They can see my plate, but the 250 alone doesn't trigger the cameras. Every other bike I've taken on the 407 does get billed.

Warp speed just doesn't happen on a 250cc bike (130 kph is the best I have managed.) I tried that bit about going well over to the side once. Have you seen all the crap on the sides? Geez, it is an expensive toll road, but not nearly as expensive as new tires. Never tried that again.

[PGlaves]

Greetings, Paul. Not picking a fight here (great respect for your mechanical talent), but......

Things have progressed (or regressed - point of view, I suppose) since your 1959 driver education.

There is no 'general rule' that I am aware of, and the 'if it didn't detect me, I can treat it as a four-way stop' most certainly will get you busted in Wisconsin, and many other states.

That 'logic' is a bit too convuluted - sort of like a 'jailhouse lawyer,' as we used to refer to prisoners who were sure they knew the law better than 'us LEO's.'

I don't know every nook and crany of our legal system - no one does, but being ignored by the variable sensitivity of a signal loop is not carte blanche permission to 'jump' to a different, more convinient interpretation at an intersection.

I urge you not to be that confident, should your bike not trip a sensor. When the Judge can't find this 'general rule,' your day could end badly.

Afterall, if you're locked up, how will we get all that great advice on maintaining our Beemers?! :stick

So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?

[PGlaves]

Never mind. I found what Wisconsin law specifically says about this situation.

"4. Notwithstanding subd. 1., a motorcycle, moped, motor
bicycle, or bicycle facing a red signal at an intersection may, after
stopping as required under subd. 1. for not less than 45 seconds,
proceed cautiously through the intersection before the signal turns
green if no other vehicles are present at the intersection to actuate
the signal and the operator of the motorcycle, moped, motor
bicycle, or bicycle reasonably believes the signal is vehicle actuated.
The operator of a motorcycle, moped, motor bicycle, or bicycle
proceeding through a red signal under this subdivision
shall yield the right−of−way to any vehicular traffic, pedestrian,
bicyclist, or rider of an electric personal assistive mobility device
proceeding through a green signal at the intersection or lawfully
within a crosswalk or using the intersection.

[Maylett]

That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation. :evil

[Greenwald]

So, purely out of curiosity then, in Wisconsin, what are drivers supposed to do when a signal malfunctions? Lets say it stays red for 3 hours. Or the bulbs all go out? Or the power fails? Everybody sit there? Charge through the intersection as if the signal doesn't exist? What does Wisconsin law say about signal malfunctions? I'd bet it says something? Generally drivers must exercise "reasonable care." What is the standard of care required in Wisconsin?

Paul - glad to see you were able to access our statute about how a motorcyclist can 'option thru' a traffic control signal if his/her presence does not activate a loop sensor. I wish every state put this tool in our riding tool boxes.

As for a response to your many scenarios quoted above, this is a case of apples and oranges.

All of the 'malfunctions' you describe require innovative (and responsible) action on the part of a motorist, or the prompt response of a traffic officer to restore order.

The loop sensor not detecting your motorcycle is not a malfunction, but rather a sensitivity issue, for which you can petition local government for resolution.

Anyone self-declaring such an intersection as 'malfunctioning' could result in their day ending badly.

Ride Safe. :deal

[Greenwald]

That's interesting. In addition to Wisconsin, here's a Web page that says Minnesota, Georgia, Tennessee, Idaho and North Carolina have laws allowing a motorcyclist to cautiously proceed through a red light if the traffic signal sensor fails to detect the motorcycle.

http://www.bikernation.net/stoplightbill.htm

It looks as though Utah is lagging behind on this. I just might draft a letter to my state representative suggesting a new piece of legislation. :evil

Please do so!

If you wish, you may include my name as a contact for any legislator to discuss this issue with me.

As a retired law enforcement professional and current MSF instructor, I would be glad to enlighten him/her as to the practicality and track record of this statute.

[Greenwald]

Then what would be the protocol at an intersection that never reads your existence? Sitting there is not a practical one...really.


Waiting on a larger piece of metal to pull up behind you often never happens. I have ridden aluminum & carbon fiber bicycles in a lot of towns that never see you on the loop no matter how sensitive they are set.

I have sat thru a few cycles of a non sensing loop and taken that leap of faith...one I would not be observed by the local LEO...the other that I could explain my plight and not be cited if I was. Has worked so far...:brow

Please see my responses to Paul and Maylett.

Petition your state legislature to pass a law similar to Wisconsin - your gripes are legit, and you deserve equal consideration for what you ride!

[PGlaves]

Kevin, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

I reluctantly agree with Kevin. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

What a shame!

Edit: I corrected Kevin's name. I previously said Ken. My bad.

[Greenwald]

Ken, (and everybody else) - don't do what I say. Sit there till a LEO comes along and tells you what to do. You are screwed because anything you do may be illegal or be foolish.

I reluctantly agree with Ken. Since folks can't think then the states should pass more laws so they don't have to. Here in Texas the law states that loops must detect motorcycles. So between filing a complaint charging the traffic engineer/public works director with failure to obey the law or deciding it was a malfunction ..... I know what I would do. Their defense would be that they didn't break the law - it was a malfunction. So round and round we go ......

If at the stop bar I have three technically unlawful moves I could make: right turn from left lane; unlawful lane change in the intersection; or proceed with care to turn when safe to do so. Any abusive LEO can cite me for any of these.

Since by your expert opinion, at least some LEOs would seem to think I should sit there until I starve, push my bike to the side and leave it, or some other action less safe than reasonably and carefully proceeding, I give up and fully support legislatures spelling it out so folks don't have to think or be reasonable when technology doesn't work right. Meanwhile, I'd take my chances with the judge. Won't win maybe, but it beats making a right turn from the left lane or unlawful lane change in the intersection any day of the week. That's what I would do, but nobody else should listen to me because you might get a ticket. You have been warned by somebody who knows what LEOs would do in these circumstances.

What a shame!


Ultimately, each of us must decide how to handle this occasional annoyance. I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that. Hope the future holds better experiences.


As for sitting there until you starve, I would hope that when an LEO does happen along, he shares some of his donuts with you out of compassion! :heart

[BuddingGeezer]

Arkansas has had a motorcycle Red Light Law since 2005.

Ralph Sims

[ragtoplvr]

About the only bad side effect of the fluorescent green Olympia Jacket I now wear.

When stuck at a malfunctioning light, it is now almost impossible to get anyone to pull up close enough to trip the light. Especially on a sunny day. They tend to stay about 1 or 2 car lengths back. Not that it is a bad thing.

Rod

[SheRidesABeemer]

I practice "stop, look & leave". I made it up myself. I can't wait to explain it when I get pulled over some time.

[Greenwald]

About the only bad side effect of the fluorescent green Olympia Jacket I now wear.

When stuck at a malfunctioning light, it is now almost impossible to get anyone to pull up close enough to trip the light. Especially on a sunny day. They tend to stay about 1 or 2 car lengths back. Not that it is a bad thing.

Rod

Been there. If it looks like 'Soccer-Mom Sally' behind me is going to error on the side of caution and stay too far back to be of assistance, this works:

Activate your flashers and wave her on past you - as she performs this maneuver, the signal will trip and away you go. :clap

[PGlaves]

"I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that."

Kevin,

I have the greatest respect for authority. I was a Building Official, Codes Enforcement, and Zoning Enforcement director for most of my 30+ year career. I clearly understand the proper and improper use of authority; even disciplined subordinates a few times because they didn't want to think. What I have a problem with is the unthinking abuse of authority.

[Greenwald]

"I am aware from previous posts that you and authority have not always been the best of friends - sorry for that."

Ken,

I have the greatest respect for authority. I was a Building Official, Codes Enforcement, and Zoning Enforcement director for most of my 30+ year career. I clearly understand the proper and improper use of authority; even disciplined subordinates a few times because they didn't want to think. What I have a problem with is the unthinking abuse of authority.

OK - I'm with ya on that.

Like you, I wish we had fewer laws to enforce, since many are duplicated in their intent.

Not sure if 'the system' can filter itself anymore - too much bureaucracy.

Sounds like things in Texas are even more convuloted than here is WI.

Have a safe and busy (riding, that is) summer. :bikes

[83014]

The loop sensor not detecting your motorcycle is not a malfunction, but rather a sensitivity issue, for which you can petition local government for resolution.

Anyone self-declaring such an intersection as 'malfunctioning' could result in their day ending badly.

Ride Safe. :deal

Under NC law, even if the detector is working and detects larger vehicles, a motorcyclist is allowed to treat it as a malfunctioning signal if it doesn't detect the motorcycle and proceed after the appropriate delay.

[Greenwald]

Under NC law, even if the detector is working and detects larger vehicles, a motorcyclist is allowed to treat it as a malfunctioning signal if it doesn't detect the motorcycle and proceed after the appropriate delay.

Similar to Wisconsin's law (see Paul's post of the specific language), but here, it does not get classified as "malfunctioning."

Interesting.

[TinyTrains]

Regardless of any law, after waiting the prescribed length of time, and proceeding, should a LEO happen upon you as you go, you will probably still get a ticket. They did not see you waiting, so it just you word, which is meaningless in traffic court.

I don't know the legal meaning of malfunction, but as a design engineer, if a sensor fails to detect an object is supposed to detect. That is a malfunction. But try proving it in court.

I suppose you can turn off the bike and push it to the corner and press the button. :dance

Scott

[PGlaves]

Regardless of any law, after waiting the prescribed length of time, and proceeding, should a LEO happen upon you as you go, you will probably still get a ticket. They did not see you waiting, so it just you word, which is meaningless in traffic court.

I don't know the legal meaning of malfunction, but as a design engineer, if a sensor fails to detect an object is supposed to detect. That is a malfunction. But try proving it in court.

I suppose you can turn off the bike and push it to the corner and press the button. :dance

Scott

How sad it is that we now consider sworn testimony to be "meaningless" in a court of law. I guess years of folks lying on the stand under oath brings us to that. If it happened to me I would take my bike right back to the same spot with as many witnesses as I could cajole to accompany me so that I could corroborate my version for the judge. Of course, with my luck I'd go back and the darn detector would work.

[TinyTrains]

How sad it is that we now consider sworn testimony to be "meaningless" in a court of law. I guess years of folks lying on the stand under oath brings us to that. If it happened to me I would take my bike right back to the same spot with as many witnesses as I could cajole to accompany me so that I could corroborate my version for the judge. Of course, with my luck I'd go back and the darn detector would work.

My comments were based on the fact that in traffic court (unlike criminal court), the burden of proof has always been with the defendant.