FD Fluid Came Out Black at 3900 Miles. Another Dealer Screw Up?

[dhgeyer]

2009 R1200R, purchased January 20, 2010. I had a dealership do the 600 mile service at 683 miles, I believe in early February.

Today I drained the final drive at 3900 miles, and the fluid is pure black. I think I read somewhere (here?) that the original fluid is black. Did the dealership fail to change it at the 600 mile service? If so, how likely is that to contribute to an early failure, and how upset should I be?

Thanks!

[marchyman]

Sometimes the second drain is black, too. Throughs are that some kind of assembly lube with moly is used which blackens the gear oil. It can take a flush or three before the oil stops turning black.

The color does not indicate anything good or bad. If you want to know that get the oil analyzed.

[dhgeyer]

Thanks. I guess I worry too much now.

[tsperez]

Is the FD oil changed at the 600 mile service? There was nothing on my invoice about that. Wouldn't they charge for it? They listed engine oil, oil filter, shop rags, etc. but nothing about FD oil. It did have an item for 600 mile service also.

tsp

[deilenberger]

Is the FD oil changed at the 600 mile service? There was nothing on my invoice about that. Wouldn't they charge for it? They listed engine oil, oil filter, shop rags, etc. but nothing about FD oil. It did have an item for 600 mile service also.

tspIt is as of the 2007 model year.. mine received it 3 years ago, and the oil PN was on my invoice. And yes - they'd charge for it. Bikes prior to 2007 had "lifetime" oil (which wasn't) and it wasn't specified to be changed at the 600 mile service.

[deilenberger]

2009 R1200R, purchased January 20, 2010. I had a dealership do the 600 mile service at 683 miles, I believe in early February.

Today I drained the final drive at 3900 miles, and the fluid is pure black. I think I read somewhere (here?) that the original fluid is black. Did the dealership fail to change it at the 600 mile service? If so, how likely is that to contribute to an early failure, and how upset should I be?

Thanks!Might have been here - might be on the R1200R subforum on www.r1150.org..

If it was me - I'd ride a few hundred miles, and then do the change again. Make sure none of the black is still in there.

We don't know what the black substance is - but BMW apparently linked it to drive failures since they added a change of the fluid at the 600 mile service (and then again at every 12,000 mile service.)

I had mine changed during the 600 mile service. When I changed it myself at 24,000 miles (this was before BMW came up with the 12k recommendation..) the oil that came out looked just like what I was putting in (BMW 75W-90 Synthetic gear oil) - sort of a clear cherry red color. I had drained it into a brand new aluminum foil baking pan so I could see how the oil looked. It looked great - there wasn't a sign of any black whatever, and there were no signs of contamination.

If I was you - after doing this - and getting clean oil in the drive, I'd stop worrying about it. While the number of drive failures dropped off drastically after the oil change at 600 was introduced, it wasn't as if every final drive that didn't receive this change was doomed to fail.. BMW has hinted the actual failure rate was less then 1%.. based on some informal numbers gathered here and elsewhere, I suspect that number is pretty accurate. And since people started draining and refilling the older drives that hadn't gotten the 600 mile change, I've also noted a big drop-off in reported failures.

Get it clean, and then stop worrying about it. Since your '09 has a bottom drain and a top fill (the speed sensor) - it would be possible to flow some oil through the rear drive and turn the wheel while it's draining. That will probably rinse out any clinging to the gears inside - then let it fully drain and refill with the specified 180cc's of oil.

And go ride it.

Best,

[RoboRider]

The more I change mine, the cleaner it stays. 2005 R12RT around 45k miles.

[hjsbmw]

2009 R1200R, purchased January 20, 2010. I had a dealership do the 600 mile service at 683 miles, I believe in early February.

Today I drained the final drive at 3900 miles, and the fluid is pure black. I think I read somewhere (here?) that the original fluid is black. Did the dealership fail to change it at the 600 mile service? If so, how likely is that to contribute to an early failure, and how upset should I be?

Thanks!

I did mine at 12k miles. The fluid was yellow/greenish, not the red BMW juice, although as per previous owner dealer maintained, and it had some dark, soft, non-metallic stuff float in it. In addition, I got out some pasty mess from the drain plug, which is hollow and collected it. If I'd have to guess I'd say it's either assembly grease or an additive the factory put into the oil.

[dhgeyer]

Update: Thank you all for your responses. I will not worry about the color.

What may concern me even more is that, after carefully collecting as much as I could of the fluid that came out and putting it in a measuring cup, I now discover that the dealer overfilled the final drive. The original spec was 220 ml, but, as I understand it, BMW decreased that to 180 ml after some seal failures. I drained mine cold, not warmed up as I should have, and at least 225 ml came out. Probably more like 230 ml, given that I was not able to get every drop into the measuring cup.

I actually purchased the BMW special tool for filling the final drive (a big, graduated, plunger type syringe), so I know I put the right amount in. But, there is the possibility that there may still may be too much in there if I didn't get all the old stuff out. I let it drain for about an hour, knowing I hadn't warmed it up, so I don't know. I'll change it again and do it right in another thousand or so and see how things look then.

Next time I do it I'll use the fill plug, rather than the speed sensor for filling. They have a fill plug on the final drive now. I don't know when that was added, but it's fairly recent. I used the speed sensor this time because I don't think I had a new crush washer for the fill plug, but I did have a new O-ring for the speed sensor. Some of the dealers' service departments don't know about the fill plug yet.

Between overfilling the engine oil by about 8 ounces, overfilling the final drive, and leaving hoses unconnected, I'm getting kind of disheartened by BMW service techs. I guess they aren't really any better than any other techs. I'm going to do as much of this stuff as I possibly can from now on. I'd better change the transmission fluid soon to see if they overfilled that, too. While not called for, I asked them to change that too at the 600 mile service.

[RoboRider]

You are find on the Final Drive. The spec is meant for refill. I think they assume 20 or 30 mls of oil are retained and adding 180 brings it up to full. I think on mine "full" is about at the fill threads (or drain threads on the 05).

The tranny is impossible to overfill. You fill to the bottom of the threads, if you over fill it will just drain out before you put the plug in.

Engine oil fill is sometimes tricky, make sure to check it after the engine is nicely warmed up, maybe a good 20 minute ride, and let it sit for a few minutes on the center stand. A good time to check is after filling with gas.

[Wallowa]

First Moly assemble lube is not the problem; concensus is that the OEM moly will persist for a few lube changes, many add 10% moly back into FD refills...

And when the "sealed for life" FDs started to fail...BMW started to 'flail'...

First this dictated: #1 Change 'lifetime' lube at 600 mi check-in

Then they said to: #2 Change from 220 ml to 180 ml when changing out lube

Along came: #3 Change FD lube every 12K miles after 600 mi change

No, the lube change was not to remove moly and no the 180 ml was not to stop seal failures....but to try and stop or slow down FD bearing failures...BMW NEVER gave a definitive answer to why the FDs fail or what they were doing or have done to abate this problem...

Person with multi colors in your FD lube ['pasty mess']...contamination...consider flushing a couple of times...my guess is water..

Don't even get started on what lube to use in FDs! Dealers were putting in 75W140 while manual stated 75W90...

What amazes me is the variance in what services and what products the BMW dealers provide when you take you bike to them for service...this is only outdone by the total lack of updated information that BMW sends to owners...owners either find out from a dealer or hear it on forum..BMWNA and Motorrad are the "black holes of information"...data flows in but none comes out.

[RoboRider]

OK, that jogged my memory. The fill for a new "dry" FD was 250, then 220ml on a change, assuming about 30ml would remain on the gears and casing.

That was then dropped to 210ml, or 180 on a change. So, you really don't want to let the FD drain for hours and hours. If you were able to make it completely drained (like after a rebuild) you'd fill with 210ml. Warm it up on a ride, drain it like you would the engine oil, and fill with 180.

As for BMW and information, they are certainly no more cryptic than the company I work at. Just about every company I know has a marketing and communication strategy of Bart Simpson or Sgt. Schultze ("I know nothing...."). So I won't hammer BMW for it.

The best thing I know is to develop a good relationship with the dealer. My dealer (Capitol BMW in Raleigh, NC) is run by fantastic people from parts to sales to service. They are very forthcoming with information and help. If you have a bad dealer, you'll likely have a bad feeling about BMW. When you have a great dealer, life if much better.

[TourNut]

I do not know if my FD oil got replaced at 600 or not, I changed it myself at 3500 mi. What came out was dark Red and drain plug "cup" had metallic sludge attracted to the magnet as I kinda would expect a FD being in the early breaking-in stage. I'm glad it has the magnet filtering the oil in effect. I put in what the BMW dealership sells for FD oil, also clear red. On the '08 the fill plug was on top, forward of the axle, that sensor was behind the axle, I left it alone. I put chain lube on the ends of the splines , to wick in behind the circlip, (which my circlip pliers tool was too small to open). Chain lube kinda sticks to metal, keeping out moisture, protecting splines with lubrication. (too much can centrifugal force it's way to brake disc) I would have liked to get a moly paste on the splines but figured chain lube was better than dry splines.

[deilenberger]

A few general comments -

The ONLY bearings on the final drive that see the fluid are the input shaft bearings (aka bevel gear) and the needle bearing on the outside edge of the axle. The large bearing that actually carries the weight of the wheel is a sealed, greased bearing located on the OUTSIDE of the housing - with an oil seal between it and the fluid in the housing.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0398&mospid=49569&btnr=33_0638&hg=33&fg=10 - shows the input shaft bearing (Bevel Gear).. with the seal outside it - indicating it IS lubricated by the oil in the housing (#5) and an inner bearing (indicated it has been discontinued - dunno what's up with that..) #7. Both of these are lubricated by the rear-drive fluid.

If you look at: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0398&mospid=49569&btnr=33_1265&hg=33&fg=10 - bearing #7 clearly has seal #10 BETWEEN it and the fluid - and this bearing is NOT lubricated by the rear-drive fluid. The needle bearing #11 IS - as is indicated by the position of seal #12.

What has been observed by ME - in talking to owners of (and seeing in some cases) failed hexhead rear drives - 4 so far - is -- all the failures appear to have been preceded by a failure of seal #12. Was the seal failure the cause? IMHO - probably. It's that or the needle bearing (which really takes no weight, just the thrust force of the wheel pushing the bike forward) failed and it causes the seal to fail.

In one case - I was called by a local club member who was about 1,000 miles from home. He'd observed leaking from the outside seal (#12) but he HAD to be home the next day... and it was a weekend, and he was in the middle of nowhere midwest. So - he pressed on despite the leak. He made it to within about 20 miles of his house before the bike started to feel squirrely. He said he had a little bit of trouble making it the last 5 miles because it felt like the rear brake was locked on.. When I saw his final drive it had rather obvious signs of overheating.

I suspect his failure mode was - the seal went - eventually the oil all leaked out - and the rear drive started overheating to the point where it boiled the lubricant in the large sealed bearing (#7) which eventually failed.

YMMV - but I've also noticed a sharp dropoff in reported rear drive failures since BMW instituted 1, 2 and 3 in Wallowa's (Phil's) posting.

As far as the assertion that the black is moly lube - I've seen no one who has had the oil tested to actually determine what the black stuff is. Might be moly, might be ??. Whatever it is - BMW doesn't really want it in there. Moly is used as a last-chance lubricant - great for things like DRY gears and sliding splines. I don't think it's that great in this application, since it has been shown in some applications to build up inside bearing cages causing the bearings to stop rolling and start sliding, which then results in a failed bearing. It was rather frequently added to early K bike transmissions with claimed improvement in shifting - but the important thing to note - the K bike transmission has ALL sealed bearings, so the moly never got to the bearings, it just coated the gears and sliding surfaces (where it probably DID do some good.) In the case of our rear drives - there are two bearings that are not sealed bearings, and I doubt if moly is ideal to be used with them.

YMMV, and all the above is my thinking and mine alone - so ignore it at will.. :bikes

[TomBarnhart]

Black Oil: For years I used Motol Semi Synthetic gear lube in my K-75 tranny and rear drive. It went in black and came out black. Maybe this is what the dealer used on your bike.

Fill Plug: My dealer showed me the fill plug. The tech said that the fill plug (just about 11 O'Clock) started appearing on bikes built late in 2008, which corresponds to my bike's build date. He also explained that there are 3 different sized and colored "O" rings for the sensor unit. Green, black and silver. Make sure you have the right one before pulling the sensor, they are not interchangeable.

[marchyman]

As far as the assertion that the black is moly lube - I've seen no one who has had the oil tested to actually determine what the black stuff is. Might be moly, might be ??

Hmmm, I assumed it was moly, but ... Linky (http://www.r1200gs.info/forum/showpost.php?p=11444&postcount=4) [r1200gs.info]. That is a Blackstone Labs analysis of what came out of an '09 GS at the 600 mile service. Doesn't look like there was extra moly in that sample. What I don't know is if the sample came out black as it did in the earlier bikes. I'd assume yes, but look where that got me. :D

[30300]

This is from an oil sample taken from a friends HP2. Second oil change at about 12k miles.
Long time since I looked at a periodic table.
Unfortunately the numbers don't line up, Al=4, Si=5, B=195, Ca=19, Mg=1, Mg=1, Zn=14, P=1256

Wear Metals (ppm)
Cu Fe Cr Al Pb Sn Si Na K B Mo Ni Ag Ti Sb Ca Mg Zn P Ba
1 202 3 4 0 0 5 0 0 195 0 0 0 0 0 19 1 14 1256 0

[dhgeyer]

This morning I rode over to the BMW dealership that did the 600 mile service, and had a long talk with the service manager. We have gotten to be somewhat friends. Good guy. I had him note in my written records the various glitches in the 600 mile service, and the fuel sensor replacement. It's there in writing should any of this ever become an issue.

When the subject of overfilling the final drive came up, he was very strongly of the opinion that 230 ml was a reasonable amount. He, and several of his techs (I also spoke to one of them who has 22 years as a BMW tech) believe that the engineers at BMW were overly hasty and a bit arbitrary in dropping the fluid quantity spec as drastically as they did. He pointed out that BMW never produced any documentation to show that these drives, which were originally designed for 250 ml, would last for long service lives with the reduced quantity. His concern is that, if any of the smaller amount of fluid is lost to overheating, there may not be enough to lubricate the drive. And he thinks that overheating could be more likely with less fluid. He had several other reasons to support his position, not all of which I will quote here, but he is quite convincing. He said that he does not dictate to his techs how much fluid to put in final drives. Some of them use 180 ml, some use more. He uses more in his own bike, as does the tech I spoke to.

This is, if not the premier BMW dealership in the USA, certainly one of the top two or three. They are located about 50 miles from where I live.

After I got back from riding over there and back, I drained the final drive again. For one thing, I wanted to see if there was any truth to RoboRider's claim that I might get less out if I didn't drain it as long, or that the drive might retain some fluid. I also was curious to see what color it might be after a little over a hundred miles. What came out within a few minutes, with the drain and fill plugs removed and the drive warm from riding, was exactly what I put in yesterday. It was still red, but quite a bit darker. The magnet in the drain plug, which I completely cleaned yesterday, had a surprising amount of dust on it. No chunks or slivers.

So now I see that there are several points of view on this issue, and it's like the old saw "The longer I live and the farther I go, the more I learn and the less I know".

I put 200 ml back in today. That's not a magic number; it's just a compromise. I guess the rest is up to the powers that be.

[deilenberger]

Hmmm, I assumed it was moly, but ... Linky (http://www.r1200gs.info/forum/showpost.php?p=11444&postcount=4) [r1200gs.info]. That is a Blackstone Labs analysis of what came out of an '09 GS at the 600 mile service. Doesn't look like there was extra moly in that sample. What I don't know is if the sample came out black as it did in the earlier bikes. I'd assume yes, but look where that got me. :D

Looks like virtually no moly in the sample. Lots of phosporous, some boron and some iron. I believe the boron is a neutralizer.. phosporous is an anti-scuff agent when combined with sulphur - but I don't see a line in the analysis for sulphur. From memory (often faulty) I do seem to recall the distinctive smell of sulphur in the BMW Synthetic.. so I'm guessing it's there. Iron would be normal for a new drive - a bit of break-in wear.

But it still begs the question - what's the black stuff? Some assembly lube would be my WAG that isn't adequately washed off before filling the drive the first time.

Good stuff - thanks for passing it on!

[marcopolo]

When the subject of overfilling the final drive came up, he was very strongly of the opinion that 230 ml was a reasonable amount. He, and several of his techs (I also spoke to one of them who has 22 years as a BMW tech) believe that the engineers at BMW were overly hasty and a bit arbitrary in dropping the fluid quantity spec as drastically as they did. He pointed out that BMW never produced any documentation to show that these drives, which were originally designed for 250 ml, would last for long service lives with the reduced quantity.


I'm no engineer, but given the choice between the manufacturer's recommendations and the musings -- however well intentioned -- of a service manger and some of his techs, I'll stick with BMW's recommendations, but that's just me. BMW had a problem, assessed it, reached some conclusions and made some changes to the FD fill quantity and frequency. Neither I, nor a service tech, have the engineering resources that BMW does to make these FD recommendations. As for the service manager's point about lack of documentation regarding the changes, does he mean to suggest that BMW provides volumes of engineering justification every time they make a change to the maintenance schedule, or issue a tech service bulletin?

[dhgeyer]

I'm no engineer, but given the choice between the manufacturer's recommendations and the musings -- however well intentioned -- of a service manger and some of his techs, I'll stick with BMW's recommendations, but that's just me. BMW had a problem, assessed it, reached some conclusions and made some changes to the FD fill quantity and frequency. Neither I, nor a service tech, have the engineering resources that BMW does to make these FD recommendations. As for the service manager's point about lack of documentation regarding the changes, does he mean to suggest that BMW provides volumes of engineering justification every time they make a change to the maintenance schedule, or issue a tech service bulletin?

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You ride to where the highway ends and the desert breaks"

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