Anonymous book online??

[tourist]

I was just curious if there's a way to look at it online? It could be updated immediately. I mean its just a database taken from the form online anyway.

[Newstar]

This is not a bad idea! I know of at least one member who was stuck in a hotel away from her anonymous book and needing assistance.

[SIBUD]

Interesting suggestion. :thumb

There as some software issues. We are currently getting ready to install some new software that may make this technically possible. Certainly has some appeal. On the road and want to use your cell phone to query the Anonymous Book for someone who is close to where you are, or where you are going, seems like a pretty neat use of technology.

This would be a decision to be made by the BOD. The very best way for you to present the idea for consideration is to e-mail the whole Board directly at this address:

board@bmwmoa.org

[GregFeeler]

I was just curious if there's a way to look at it online? It could be updated immediately. I mean its just a database taken from the form online anyway.

This is an idea that's been around as a general suggestion for a long time. Since the Anon Book is a member benefit, and people list themselves in it because they believe *ONLY* other BMW MOA members have access, we need a way to limit it on-line to only members. And, also in a way that the information can not be duplicated and redistributed. For example, a PDF file fails that test.

However, Vince has this topic on his development plan, and in one conversation he described a possible smart-phone enabled solution that would let you access the needed part of the Anonymous listing (your local) from the side of the road on using your web-enabled smart phone. That would be very cool, IMHO. No time-line on this right now, but on the list.

[rvb1019]

However, Vince has this topic on his development plan,
and in one conversation he described a possible smart-phone enabled solution that would let you access the needed part of the Anonymous listing (your local) from the side of the road on using your web-enabled smart phone. That would be very cool, IMHO. No time-line on this right now, but on the list.

I think an App for that would be a winner of an idea. :thumb

[RTFlyer]

I think an App for that would be a winner of an idea. :thumb

Great idea. Drop a pin on a map for your current location and pull up anonymous members nearby. If it can work for food, gas, or movie theaters, it should work for us.

Making it a paid app would maybe even pay for it's development from an outside source as well as add a little to the MOA's coffers. The MOA doesn't necessarily need to develop it alone. I'm certain that some people/companies would be interested in it for a share of the proceeds. I'd gladly pay a few bucks for the app which would also be a way to limit it to members only, assuming we had to use our MOA member # to download it. Combine the existing anon database with a map program and there you go.

I think that there are fewer issues than it would appear in getting it up and running.

[Statdawg]

:nod

[DennisDarrow]

Mark up another lost benefit for the folks who have no idea what a smart phone is, are not gonna buy a phone to just use this, who think an ap is short hand for an apple pie, and who see the move to put every thing online as just validation for NOT carrying on with this organization...........There are folks out here who do like to see printed stuff in their hands..........

Yes, it would be valid and real to have the Anon book online; but the above sentiments are not just mine I feel........I need to shut up before I start ranting about in the lastest ON how there are just 3 letters to the editor but 2 pages or more gleaned from online..........The future is not just determined by the whims and desires of editors and leadership of an organization; but also how it's offerings are used.........Must be for some of us, like when we were buckling up the stays on the harness for the Sunday drive to see those smoking, backfiring, and smelly new inventions wheel by.......Just thoughts.........Dennis

[kbasa]

Great idea. Drop a pin on a map for your current location and pull up anonymous members nearby. If it can work for food, gas, or movie theaters, it should work for us.

Making it a paid app would maybe even pay for it's development from an outside source as well as add a little to the MOA's coffers. The MOA doesn't necessarily need to develop it alone. I'm certain that some people/companies would be interested in it for a share of the proceeds. I'd gladly pay a few bucks for the app which would also be a way to limit it to members only, assuming we had to use our MOA member # to download it. Combine the existing anon database with a map program and there you go.

I think that there are fewer issues than it would appear in getting it up and running.

Add an ability to filter by what your looking for. Need storage space? Filter the pins.

Use the GPS on an iPhone to show nearby members on a map. Allow clicking through the pin to see phone number. Dial directly from there.

You may be able to require a link for registration via the MOA server to prevent unauthorized dissemination.

A GPS enabled app would be killer.

[Bob_M]

I was just curious if there's a way to look at it online?

Great idea

[RTFlyer]

Mark up another lost benefit for the folks who have no idea what a smart phone is, are not gonna buy a phone to just use this, who think an ap is short hand for an apple pie, and who see the move to put every thing online as just validation for NOT carrying on with this organization...........There are folks out here who do like to see printed stuff in their hands..........

Yes, it would be valid and real to have the Anon book online; but the above sentiments are not just mine I feel........I need to shut up before I start ranting about in the lastest ON how there are just 3 letters to the editor but 2 pages or more gleaned from online..........The future is not just determined by the whims and desires of editors and leadership of an organization; but also how it's offerings are used.........Must be for some of us, like when we were buckling up the stays on the harness for the Sunday drive to see those smoking, backfiring, and smelly new inventions wheel by.......Just thoughts.........Dennis

I'm not sure what you're saying Dennis. How would anyone be losing a benefit by the organization providing the information in another way? There would be no reason not to print the anon book still, so it would be available to anyone to use as they see fit. But to make it available online or as an app, it seems like it can't be that complicated a thing.

As far as online...make the database available through this site only so that would keep it as a benefit to members only.

As far as an app...Let's say it cost $9.99. I'd gladly pay that. Now imagine another 2000 members doing the same. Cha-ching! That's almost 20 grand. There's no need for hand-wringing and head-scratching. Do a survey as to interest If there's a valid interest, call some people capable of developing the app, run the numbers by them, and cut a deal for development and update costs assuming that the MOA supplies an updated database once a year.:deal You cold even charge for the updates.

If the organization could make money from an app, it would be a benefit to all who belong, whether they use the info in this way or by licking their fingers and turning the pages.

[Motor31]

I'm not one of the folks who is excited by the new and different "apps" available to cell phones. I don't even have a palm pilot style phone, it's just a phone for me.

I do like and would seriously encourage the ability to use the anonymous book online. I know not everyone would or will carry a computer with them on their travels but an internet based option to look at the book, especially if it is broken down by city etc. would be great for those of us who do carry computers everywhere we travel. A simple PDF format would be fantastic as it could even be downloaded and carried in the net book or even a thumb drive for use elsewhere.

[RTFlyer]

A simple PDF format would be fantastic as it could even be downloaded and carried in the net book or even a thumb drive for use elsewhere.

That's definitely a good idea too, and probably the most easily implemented.

[GregFeeler]

That's definitely a good idea too, and probably the most easily implemented.

Consider that a PDF file can be duplicated and distributed endlessly. The Anonymous Book could be "reprinted" all over the Internet. If you are in the Anon. book now, would you continue to do so if you thought that you might be contacted by non-BMW MOA members - perhaps many of them? Asked another way, do you think the majority of our members would continue their Anon listing if they couldn't be assured that their offers of help couldn't be limited to only their fellow members? Would people who value the Anon book and see it as a big member benefit continue their memberships if they could get a PDF copy free from a friend?

[Mika]

An anonymous Luddite ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) member of the MOA recently said “This new fangled technology stuff is not to be trusted to protect our benefits” on his way to create a Luddite pdf file.

1 http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/811193192_Wqayh-S.jpg

Plus

1 http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/811193279_RprEw-S.jpg

= paper security

:stick

Sorry Greg, I understand and appreciate the Board and staff are charged with protecting the value of the membership benefits but could not resist.
:bolt

[GregFeeler]

An anonymous Luddite ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite) member of the MOA recently said “This new fangled technology stuff is not to be trusted to protect our benefits” on his way to create a Luddite pdf file.

1 http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/811193192_Wqayh-S.jpg

Plus

1 http://m1ka.smugmug.com/photos/811193279_RprEw-S.jpg

= paper security

:stick

Sorry Greg, I understand and appreciate the Board and staff are charged with protecting the value of the membership benefits but could not resist.
:bolt



Ha! :rofl

[Statdawg]

Oh no my bad. On a terrible rainy day in Southern Cal I recieved an email from a UK BMW rider, but not an MOA member. He was having an unresolved issue with his bike and needed my advise 3600 miles away. I called someone on the A-list and explained the situation. The result was he took care of the UK BMW rider from trailering, storage, accomendation and getting him to the dealer.

About three days later I recieve an email from the UK rider asking me how do I know these people. I told him I have no clue but would you like to join the MOA or the dark side cult ? I am not sure if he did or did not but his RTW ( Round the World Tour ) is continuing and he certainly is impressed with his American counterparts.

Was security comprimised ? No, because I made the arrangemnets and introduction.

But But he is was not an MOA member. Well there are many people the MOA markets to that are not so why can't I ? After all its a member driven club.

Can the A Book fall into wrong hands ? Depends on how well its secure, I have one in my top case that is somewhere along Rt 84 west bound in 2005. I am not sure if anyone has found it yet, if you do please call me.

Should the benefit be protected ? Of course, and technology and the members will plot the course.

[GregFeeler]

Oh no my bad. On a terrible rainy day in Southern Cal I recieved an email from a UK BMW rider, but not an MOA member. He was having an unresolved issue with his bike and needed my advise 3600 miles away. I called someone on the A-list and explained the situation. The result was he took care of the UK BMW rider from trailering, storage, accomendation and getting him to the dealer.

About three days later I recieve an email from the UK rider asking me how do I know these people. I told him I have no clue but would you like to join the MOA or the dark side cult ? I am not sure if he did or did not but his RTW ( Round the World Tour ) is continuing and he certainly is impressed with his American counterparts.

Was security comprimised ? No, because I made the arrangemnets and introduction.

But But he is was not an MOA member. Well there are many people the MOA markets to that are not so why can't I ? After all its a member driven club.

Can the A Book fall into wrong hands ? Depends on how well its secure, I have one in my top case that is somewhere along Rt 84 west bound in 2005. I am not sure if anyone has found it yet, if you do please call me.

Should the benefit be protected ? Of course, and technology and the members will plot the course.


Are you in the Anonymous Book? Why, or why not?

[DennisDarrow]

[QUOTE=RTFlyer;561307]I'm not sure what you're saying Dennis. How would anyone be losing a benefit by the organization providing the information in another way? There would be no reason not to print the anon book still, so it would be available to anyone to use as they see fit. But to make it available online or as an app, it seems like it can't be that complicated a thing.

All I am saying is that there are a world of us that get out and go BUT; do not have nor will ever have the newest farkle that marketing tries to push......To go to the time, expense, and trouble of installing or purchasing equipment to participate in this worthy idea is simply eliminating a lot of folks............YES, in my travels I do carry a laptop that is totally connected to the internet and used to maintain communications with my bank and friends on here........GPS, IPHONE, IPAD, Text Messaging, Twitter, and on and on will never be in my bags.......Keep it simple...........Dennis

[RTFlyer]

Consider that a PDF file can be duplicated and distributed endlessly. The Anonymous Book could be "reprinted" all over the Internet. If you are in the Anon. book now, would you continue to do so if you thought that you might be contacted by non-BMW MOA members - perhaps many of them? Asked another way, do you think the majority of our members would continue their Anon listing if they couldn't be assured that their offers of help couldn't be limited to only their fellow members? Would people who value the Anon book and see it as a big member benefit continue their memberships if they could get a PDF copy free from a friend?

Umm...I have a copier 10 feet from me right now and nothing standing in the way of making as many copies as I like. I also have the ability to scan documents and convert them to PDF files. This evil technology already exists yet myself and countless others with access to it resist each day!

To go to the time, expense, and trouble of installing or purchasing equipment to participate in this worthy idea is simply eliminating a lot of folks............GPS, IPHONE, IPAD, Text Messaging, Twitter, and on and on will never be in my bags.......Keep it simple...........Dennis

I think that we're on two different pages here too. If you prefer a paper copy and can have one, and I prefer a digital copy and can have one, what is lost to either of us?

[GregFeeler]

Umm...I have a copier 10 feet from me right now and nothing standing in the way of making as many copies as I like. I also have the ability to scan documents and convert them to PDF files. This evil technology already exists yet myself and countless others with access to it resist each day!

That's always been out there, but the logistics of that certainly would deter most people from going to the bother. Plus, if they did, it would be a copyright violation and prosecutable if done on a large scale. However, the question at hand here is about using a PDF format. If the 'MOA distributed the Anon Book in a PDF format it would be like we were actively encouraging people to treat it like a free and unrestricted resource.


I think that we're on two different pages here too. If you prefer a paper copy and can have one, and I prefer a digital copy and can have one, what is lost to either of us?

No, we're not. I would love some kind of on-line access to the Anon Book - BUT - it has to be provided in a way that reduces the risks of widespread electronic duplication and distribution. There are several ways of doing that using on-line viewers and search systems. However, a PDF file fails that test, and in the past we've gotten a lot of feedback from members - who wanted electronic access themselves - who said they would drop participation in the Anon Book if it were available in an unprotected format, like a PDF.

Speaking to that fact, I would like to see a show of hands of how many people on this thread are listed in the Anon Book? My point is we need to make sure we get the opinions of the people who are volunteering to be listed there, since it is their information we're talking about. I'm in there, and have been for many years.

[rmarkr]

................ I'm in there, and have been for many years.

Out of interest Greg, how many calls have you made and/or taken based on the Anon Book?

[GregFeeler]

Out of interest Greg, how many calls have you made and/or taken based on the Anon Book?

Over the years I've had about 15 to 20 Anon calls. Either directly to me or referred to me by someone else local who was in there: directions, broken bike, etc. I've never needed to call for myself, but have for others who left their Anon book at home and got stuck somewhere. The people who I've met have been fantastic, and always amazed that someone they don't know would take their time to help them. The recipient immediately gets the "pay it forward" idea when you refuse any compensation for your time or gas.

[RTFlyer]

I'm sounding argumentative and sarcastic and I apologize for that.

I guess I'm just trying to say that it should be possible to provide the information electronically in as secure a way as is currently done, and even more so. I have both an iPhone app and online access that let me do banking which I hope and believe to be secure. A password protected app or online database that requires a one-time registration including the users valid MOA info and member number should restrict access to members only and provide the necessary level of security.

Maybe I'm just not seeing all the issues.

[Mika]

Are we getting ourselves into a faux argument where there is no basis for argument in the first place?

The OP requested Anonymous be put in a digital form that could be accessed readily.
Others chimed in with agreement and suggestions of how they would implement / use a digital Anonymous.

Greg, your response was it’s in the works but not on today’s to do list.

Having just received our latest Anonymous and with so many getting ready for the heart of the 2010 touring season the sentiment appears to be to move it up the to do list.

Security is an issue in both print and electronic formats.
Protecting member benefit value v enhancing value by adding an electronic version appears to be a battle already fought by the BOD and Editorial staff now it is an implementation issue.

I was in Anonymous for all my member years until the last two issues. My work has me moving around a lot.

I have never received a call from a rider nor have I called on someone in the Anonymous.

When taking breaks on the side of the road when touring bikes stop to see if I am in trouble, the most consistent thing about these riders is the high number of them that have BMW MOA stickers on their bikes.

Anonymous is just a book. BMW MOA is just a motorcycle association. The value in either is the people. The security (how ever you define or apply that word) is in the people.

All anyone is asking is to move the electronic version up the to do list and make it a priority.

[SIBUD]

SNIP

Speaking to that fact, I would like to see a show of hands of how many people on this thread are listed in the Anon Book? My point is we need to make sure we get the opinions of the people who are volunteering to be listed there, since it is their information we're talking about. I'm in there, and have been for many years.

My hand is up. Nashville, IL

[GregFeeler]

I'm sounding argumentative and sarcastic and I apologize for that.

I guess I'm just trying to say that it should be possible to provide the information electronically in as secure a way as is currently done, and even more so. I have both an iPhone app and online access that let me do banking which I hope and believe to be secure. A password protected app or online database that requires a one-time registration including the users valid MOA info and member number should restrict access to members only and provide the necessary level of security.

Maybe I'm just not seeing all the issues.


Larry,
I think you and I are on exactly the same page, now with this post. This thread has talked about on-line access, and also a possible PDF file distribution. The PDF file has issues - but I'm totally with you about the value of on-line access, and that there are ways of providing the right security. :thumb

[GregFeeler]

My hand is up. Nashville, IL

You always have your hand up! :laugh

[GregFeeler]

Are we getting ourselves into a faux argument where there is no basis for argument in the first place?

The OP requested Anonymous be put in a digital form that could be accessed readily.
Others chimed in with agreement and suggestions of how they would implement / use a digital Anonymous.

Greg, your response was it’s in the works but not on today’s to do list.

Having just received our latest Anonymous and with so many getting ready for the heart of the 2010 touring season the sentiment appears to be to move it up the to do list.

Security is an issue in both print and electronic formats.
Protecting member benefit value v enhancing value by adding an electronic version appears to be a battle already fought by the BOD and Editorial staff now it is an implementation issue.

I was in Anonymous for all my member years until the last two issues. My work has me moving around a lot.

I have never received a call from a rider nor have I called on someone in the Anonymous.

When taking breaks on the side of the road when touring bikes stop to see if I am in trouble, the most consistent thing about these riders is the high number of them that have BMW MOA stickers on their bikes.

Anonymous is just a book. BMW MOA is just a motorcycle association. The value in either is the people. The security (how ever you define or apply that word) is in the people.

All anyone is asking is to move the electronic version up the to do list and make it a priority.

Well stated summary. Vince makes his own schedule for things like this. I don't know where it is in the stack, but I don't think it's this year. First, we have a *very* tight budget this year and such a service will cost money to implement that we haven't budgeted. Secondly, we are installing new on-line services software over the spring and summer and that is going to keep our I.T. people very busy. (Everyone hates the on-line member/registration software we have now, so this should make a lot of people happy). Again, this is Vince's project and I know he's very committed to delivering it as soon as he can. Good feedback and discussion. :thumb

[Statdawg]

Are you in the Anonymous Book? Why, or why not?

Yes I am, but I am listed in a very small town so I doubt people would call me if they are in need one mile east or west of it. I offer full services except a trailer but my brother has one in case of a real emergency ( its just not set up for bike transport).

I average about 5 International traveler visits a year and I house bikes from Argentina, Australia and a US registered bike belonging to a Spaniard. There is even a MSF Dirt Bike school behind my house thats is available as soon as another MOAer wishes to teach there. :D And our first two students were foreign tuning up their skills as they pressed forward to South America.

A major issue for me is I work in other areas of the country so I can't be a 24 / 7 person in waiting.

I also never had to use the book for self interest, but a friend of mine did and its is a priceless value we have.

[wuli959]

Speaking to that fact, I would like to see a show of hands of how many people on this thread are listed in the Anon Book? My point is we need to make sure we get the opinions of the people who are volunteering to be listed there, since it is their information we're talking about. I'm in there, and have been for many years.


Well, you have the number of contacts in the Anon book. Divide by household memberships will give you a sample size of the particpants in total (not forum users)

Now if you only had their phone numbers to survey :D

[DennisDarrow]

Speaking to that fact, I would like to see a show of hands of how many people on this thread are listed in the Anon Book? My point is we need to make sure we get the opinions of the people who are volunteering to be listed there, since it is their information we're talking about. I'm in there, and have been for many years.

Sugar Valley, Georgia here.............

No calls in the last 10 years. Of course who knows where geographically I am actually. Perhaps the online version could be a map of the state and then when you click on a region in the state it could bring up a list of folks within a certain distance.......Or perhaps you could plug in the zip code of where you are interested in getting help and a list could come up within a given distance.........

Back in the late 70's and early 80's I used to get folks, I call them leaches, that would travel around using the ANON book as a guide for a cheap easy way to get lodging and food. This happened several times until I learned to discriminate on the call itself......HELP yes, lodging NO..........

Now, have posted a couple of times in the Regional Thread, the South, about having an area up on top of the mountain in the woods that is great for camping and nature but no takers.......Our demography has changed a lot and now the tent travelers are B&B expectations.........Dennis

[snoone]

This post is to address the security issues in regards to the files...

If the anonymous book were to take the form of the online magazine, access can be restricted with a password or at least the software solution we use to do digital publications has that feature..

Also pdf files can be passworded as well...

[Bob_M]

I'm in the book, but never been called. Maybe when people get to the Pac. NW this summer

[alake17]

As a new but "older" member I support the concept of advancing the initiative of an online / smart phone accessible "Anonymous" listings and trying to secure funds from the next budget process to consider implementation.
So moved.
Seconder?

:ca:idea

[greggsnider]

I'm a fairly new member - 2 years now. I put my name in the A book when I signed up. The book was a big factor in my decision to join. I definitely considered privacy issues, 'leeches', etc - and then I thought about when my last bike died in the middle of nowhere at dusk, and I had to call a friend with a trailer who was 90 miles away...and the cold, dark evening I spent waiting on the road...

I'm a techie, so I'm all for digital versions. I agree that a PDF would likely prevent people from signing up - I might think twice. Sure, a PDF can be password-protected, printing and copying/pasting can be suppressed, etc, and I doubt many people would consciously post it online - but it would happen eventually.

Web access to the A book would be great; an app would be even better. Access to either can be secured to keep out non-members.

Features that would really sell an app: integration with the mapping function; integration with the phone dialer (click a button to dial a member's phone if it's published); an offline mode (international, no signal, etc); searching/filtering.

I would absolutely pay for the convenience & functionality of an app, or a few extra $ per year for web access. I gladly pay for quality apps. Projects like this are expensive - I wouldn't expect it for free, and I assume many members would feel the same way. Hopefully that would generate enough revenue to cover development & maintenance and possibly even more.

I was thinking about alternatives to in-house development. Most smartphone apps (iPhone and especially Android) are developed by users. Maybe the board could run a "develop the MOA smartphone app" contest: allow members to develop and submit an app; pick the winning app and give the member a prize (free one-year membership?); then take over final testing, integration of the live Anonymous Book data, and rollout. It would be much cheaper to develop, get people involved and interested, and take advantage of the depth of technical expertize of the BMW community.

Some thoughts:
* Digital and print are complementary, not mutually exclusive
* If the board took a survey and enough people said 'digital, please', printing costs could be reduced, year over year as more people choose digital
* Possibly have two options/price points on the new member form, based on their preference for paper or digital

[Motor31]

Just a last comment regarding paper "security" for the book. Does everyone shred their old anonymous book or do you use another method for securing the sensitive information in it? Just asking as every means of transmitting information has a security risk. Would a more or less permanent PAPER document be more secure than say an electronic one? I seem to recall that permanent archives all seem to be the paper variety. Just sayin.....

[vincewinkel]

Hi everyone,
On the topic of a Digital Anonymous Book - we have discussed this for a couple of years and continue to explore the concept and the best way to accompish it. I agree it would be a great app.

Vince

[lkchris]

Let's see.

Put the magazine online.

Put the anonymous book online.

Try to collect dues.

[GregFeeler]

Let's see.

Put the magazine online.

Put the anonymous book online.

Try to collect dues.

You have to be a current member to access the ON on line - and it's can't be copied for distribution. The same type of constraints will apply to any "on-line" or electronic version of the Anonymous Book. :thumb

[drummer]

How about we start small and just allow people to register in the book with an online form. I recently had a great need and used the book and proved to me the power of this resource. I then went looking for a way to register myself in the book and there seems to be no way to do this online.

Check out my thread on Just Ridin'/Praise for the anonymous book and its people.

[Ted]

I was thinking about alternatives to in-house development. Most smartphone apps (iPhone and especially Android) are developed by users. Maybe the board could run a "develop the MOA smartphone app" contest: allow members to develop and submit an app; pick the winning app and give the member a prize (free one-year membership?); then take over final testing, integration of the live Anonymous Book data, and rollout. It would be much cheaper to develop, get people involved and interested, and take advantage of the depth of technical expertize of the BMW community.

This is the best idea I have read on these forums in quite some time. My only comment on making it available online, even with passwords and locked behind a no download wall, would be that it might be necessary to allow people to opt out of the online version lest folks opt out all together.

And yes, it would be exceedingly nice to be able to sign up, pull up and edit, and withdraw online.

[tessler]

I was thinking about alternatives to in-house development. Most smartphone apps (iPhone and especially Android) are developed by users. Maybe the board could run a "develop the MOA smartphone app" contest: allow members to develop and submit an app; pick the winning app and give the member a prize (free one-year membership?); then take over final testing, integration of the live Anonymous Book data, and rollout. It would be much cheaper to develop, get people involved and interested, and take advantage of the depth of technical expertize of the BMW community.
This is the best idea I have read on these forums in quite some time. My only comment on making it available online, even with passwords and locked behind a no download wall, would be that it might be necessary to allow people to opt out of the online version lest folks opt out all together.

And yes, it would be exceedingly nice to be able to sign up, pull up and edit, and withdraw online.Its a good idea to go electronic. But I'd hasten to caution, having a tech/communications background myself, that user-developed or generated content for any platform (particularly pda and smartphone) would still require the supervision and auspices of professional development and editorial expertise.

That is, if you want to evoke a standard on par with the physical a-book.

[Ted]

I'd agree, but as the roots of this very forum indicate, oftentimes professionals contribute their expertise in volunteering for organizations. I think the original suggestion that members could develop an AP in a competition where the final development and implementation would be handed over to the Organization is based on the premise that the contributors would be skilled in the development of mobile applications. It seems to me it would be difficult to design and build a mobile AP without those skills and expertise, and nevertheless as a competition the winning AP would (I am guessing) be chosen by factors such as the coding and design, features (including security) and the like.

My only concern would be that it be available on the Blackberry ;)

[greggsnider]

Its a good idea to go electronic. But I'd hasten to caution, having a tech/communications background myself, that user-developed or generated content for any platform (particularly pda and smartphone) would still require the supervision and auspices of professional development and editorial expertise.

That is, if you want to evoke a standard on par with the physical a-book.


Absolutely. My suggestion about inviting users to develop an app was strictly for the software itself, not the content. For all the privacy and control reasons discussed, final testing, approval, deployment - and inclusion of "live" content - would need to be done by MOA personnel.

[Maylett]

As for smart phone apps, they tend to be phone-specific, so a more generic HTML solution might be easier to pull off initially and more universally accessible to MOA members. This would make the Anonymous Book available via any device with a browser connected to the Internet. Write the HTML to display something friendly for a small screen size, and you're good to go. Or include a browser sniffer in the code that custom styles the page via CSS depending on the screen resolution. Building subsequent phone-specific apps onto this, down the road, wouldn't be difficult.

As for the confidentiality of the book, and not wanting the entire book to be displayed and easily copied, there are a number of things that could be done. First and easiest, is password protecting it, like is done with this site. I mean, it could even be part of this site — residing behind the same user-specific name and password. Second, it would, of course, be database-driven, so the information could be displayed in whatever way the programmer enabled the data to be queried by the user. For example, it could be displayed ten or twenty names at a time, based upon postal code, state/province or city or, for that matter, GPS coordinates. I haven't looked, but there are likely some some already-coded open source or low-cost Web applications that would get you most of the way there and might even enable users to update their own information. Then, when it's time to make the printed book, a database dump and import into InDesign or Quark would have the printed book assembled in no time.

It would still be possible for someone with too much time on his or her hands to perform enough queries to eventually get all the information out of the book, but doing this would be far more difficult than scanning the paper book and converting it to text using OCR.

If the Anonymous Book information is already in a database or even in a well-structured spread sheet, hiring a php programmer to do this wouldn't be hard or all that expensive.

Really, (and I tell my clients this all the time) it's time for publishers to quit thinking in terms of publishing information, like the Anonymous Book or the magazine as printed pieces first, and electronic distribution as an afterthought. Instead, the problem should be framed as how best to disseminate the information in whatever forms work best, both for the publisher and the end users — whether that be print, Web, RSS feed, smart phone app, iPad, or whatever comes along next year.

[bubbagazoo]

Mark up another lost benefit for the folks who have no idea what a smart phone is, are not gonna buy a phone to just use this, who think an ap is short hand for an apple pie, and who see the move to put every thing online as just validation for NOT carrying on with this organization...........There are folks out here who do like to see printed stuff in their hands..........

Yes, it would be valid and real to have the Anon book online; but the above sentiments are not just mine I feel........I need to shut up before I start ranting about in the lastest ON how there are just 3 letters to the editor but 2 pages or more gleaned from online..........The future is not just determined by the whims and desires of editors and leadership of an organization; but also how it's offerings are used.........Must be for some of us, like when we were buckling up the stays on the harness for the Sunday drive to see those smoking, backfiring, and smelly new inventions wheel by.......Just thoughts.........Dennis

Without reading through all of the posts in this thread, here's how I think this idea could work --

The database could be available to all members of the Forum through a secure area of the web site. That way, even if you don't have a smart phone but do have a netbook/laptop with you, you can access the information. Searchable items such as location and what kind of service/assistance you are looking for would have to be included in the web interface.

As for a smart phone app, I would only like to advocate for apps for Android phones as well as iPhones.

And to address Dennis' thoughts, an online/smart phone app version of the Anonymous Book would be an enhancement, not a replacement to the Anon Book. Many members have joined to get ON and the Anon Book and leave their involvement with the club at that. And that's OK. But I see nothing wrong with making enhancements to what the club can do for its members.

[kbasa]

Maylett knows what's up.

[tessler]

Really, (and I tell my clients this all the time) it's time for publishers to quit thinking in terms of publishing information, like the Anonymous Book or the magazine as printed pieces first, and electronic distribution as an afterthought. Instead, the problem should be framed as how best to disseminate the information in whatever forms work best, both for the publisher and the end users — whether that be print, Web, RSS feed, smart phone app, iPad, or whatever comes along next year.Agreed. Still contending, of course, that the "information" should be given as much (if not more) deference as the delivery platform.

[Maylett]

Agreed. Still contending, of course, that the "information" should be given as much (if not more) deference as the delivery platform.
It does little good for my paperboy to deliver a plastic bag to my driveway early each morning if there's no newspaper in it. So yes, I completely agree that the information is far more important than its container.

That said, moving the Anonymous Book data to a member-accessible database would lead to improved information in at least three ways: (1) Members could update their information as needed throughout the year, and (2) this would mean that the book's information would be more accurate throughout the year, instead of just at that one time each year when the final book proof is okayed. (3) Unlike a printed book with limited space, electronic storage requirements are considerably more flexible. This would provide a means for more expanded, detailed and one-off bits of user information that might be very helpful but that don't fit in the printed book.

[Mika]

This discussion has been going on in various threads for over five years that I am aware of.

I fully agree with Maylett’s post #46 (http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showpost.php?p=599791&postcount=46). In this case I would take it a step further. If “it is time for publishers to quit think in terms of publishing information, like the Anonymous Book or the magazines as printed pieces first, and electronic distributions as an afterthought” it is time for the MOA to stop thinking that everything has to be generated by the efforts of volunteer members down to banging code.

The high level concept can and has been articulated by any number of members. We appear to have a number of members with the skill set to put together the architectural plan for what is desired, write an RFP and review, choose a qualified vendor to build it for us and supervise the process.

What is increasingly clear in an association populated by customers instead of volunteers is we lack the people willing to commit to the minutia and frustration of banging out the final code. Failing a shift in how we intend to see the task through we will be discussing this for another five years.

[Maylett]

What is increasingly clear in an association populated by customers instead of volunteers is we lack the people willing to commit to the minutia and frustration of banging out the final code. Failing a shift in how we intend to see the task through we will be discussing this for another five years.
Well, now you've hit the most crucial nail squarely on the head.

It's very easy to play quarterback while sitting on the sidelines. Doing much of what's been suggested wouldn't be all that difficult, but aside from the actual time spent on the project by a developer and, likely, a designer, the uncertainties of the not-so-obvious, behind-the-scenes unknowns make the project difficult to get started.

I design and coordinate the building of these sorts of online projects as part of my job, but that always involves rather extended conversations with the clients to determine what they have in mind and just how prepared their organization is to handle the transition into something that just might require assets within the organization that aren't currently there.

My knowledge of MOA extends no further than reading the magazine and logging onto this forum. In other words, I'm in the dark as to the organization itself, who makes the decisions, who runs the Web site, whether it's paid or volunteered, what the budget it, etc. It's obvious that there's some Web development expertise behind the MOA website, but where that expertise comes from or how far it goes, I haven't a clue.

As for the print products, somebody collects, edits and assembles the Anonymous Book data, and somebody builds a print version of it using a layout app, and a printer obviously prints and binds it, and then there's the record keeping and mailing. The magazine would have an even a larger operation: writers, editors, copy editors, designers, production artists, sales reps, marketers, financial people, plus a hefty printing budget. I have no idea what's in-house and what's farmed out.

At some point, all necessary systems (people, equipment, resources, budget, etc.) were put together to make the MOA print products possible. When organizations shift resources to make electronic dissemination of that same information possible, it's often a paradigm shift that just isn't easy to pull off. For example, the traditional editorial flow of most magazines might have components of database management, for example InDesign/InCopy, but seamless multi-platform publishing of that same information requires tight adherence to a highly structured database-driven production flow, along with the publishing tools and the technical expertise necessary to code, tag and tap into the data flow to divert off chunks into various directions for various purposes. And that's a fundamental change in both mindset, workflow and expertise.

For example, conversion of the Anonymous Book from a strictly print product to multi-platform distribution would require a ground-up re-evaluation of what the book is and how the information is collected and stored. Password protecting a simple PDF distilled from the print files is easy, but it seems that this easy solution isn't acceptable due to user- and membership-confidentiality issues (plus it's not really small mobile device friendly). Likewise, converting the book data (from its current spreadsheet or database) using, say, RegEx to tagged HTML would require some expertise, but wouldn't be difficult either. It would, however, limit the online version of the book to little more than a static and tedious HTML version of what's now in the printed version.

Ideally, moving the book online would involve a database-driven solution for collecting and storing the information in a way that would facilitate user-query-based dynamic display of the data. And it would also provide a mechanism for the individual user to log on and change his or her Annon profile information at any time he or she wanted to do so. This approach would also open up the possibility of an extended feature set that just isn't possible with the print product.

Of course, all this, unless it was a stand-alone application (which would have user management disadvantages), would need to be tied into the existing MOA site, and this would entail database bridge and/or integration issues so that usernames, passwords, user sessions and various other data carried over between databases.

As for the costs associated with all this, yup, there would be some, but over the long haul, those costs would be offset by the reduced costs associated with a decreased demand for the very expensive print products in favor of the cheap online, more-up-to-date versions.

Sorry for the long, dry post, but yeah, an online/mobile version of the Anonymous Book would be fantastic (as would the magazine), but it would involve thinking through all the stuff (and more) that I just mentioned. And given that this is apparently, as Mika said, a five-year-old conversation, it's apparently a paradigm shift that isn't easily digested by MOA for any number of very legitimate reasons. I mean, MOA is at its core a motorcycle club, not a publishing company.

[Motor31]

Somebody going to the next directors meeting might just get the answer about the situation. They can ask the question about it point blank to the directors and then ask for a vote on the issue of electronic distribution. If that same individual posted on the web site the results of that conversation we would have the answer from the board.

[Hodag]

i'm concerned...
thieves will use it to target bmw owners "electronically" and start rounding up our bikes. might as well park your bike on the curb with a steal me sign on it.


i'm not sure if the guy that posted that origanally is still around but its the best reason why we shouldn't do it to date.

[bmwgsrider]

I would like to see an app for the iPhone. I was under the impression that there was suppose to be an app coming out... guess I heard incorrectly.

[Mika]

BMW Motorrad USA (https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressclub/p/us/pressDetail.html?outputChannelId=9&id=T0082715EN_US&left_menu_item=node__2261)announced an iPhone roadside assistance app today.

Shhh…its part of their nefarious plot with the Banditos to round up the locations of all BMW’s in the Americas so they can be stolen for parts and profit by the Banditios while generating new customer needs for BMW.
:evil

[tourist]

i'm concerned...
thieves will use it to target bmw owners "electronically" and start rounding up our bikes. might as well park your bike on the curb with a steal me sign on it.

that's just too funny.



i'm not sure if the guy that posted that origanally is still around but its the best reason why we shouldn't do it to date.

What I really wanted to do was to be in a city, go online, look to see anybody near by that also posted occassionally that had a kk by their name. I don't think that is the intent of the book anymore. Just old stories I used to hear.

I question if the book is even a good idea. How many books are printed? Is it really worth the cost of printing and distributing to have a couple of members being grateful they had the book with them?

[DBCasey]

Does anyone have any idea if this topic has gotten any farther than this forum thread?

I sure hope the BOD are hearing about this topic. Having the Anon book accessible by digital means would be a great resource.

C

[GregFeeler]

Does anyone have any idea if this topic has gotten any farther than this forum thread?

I sure hope the BOD are hearing about this topic. Having the Anon book accessible by digital means would be a great resource.

C

We have spies everywhere. :evil All I can say is that we are planning several nice announcements for our 40th Anniversary in 2012. :hide

[wuli959]

Idea: Don't pass it to all BMWMOA members . . . limit distribution of the anonymous book to only those that participate by listing themselves in the book.

[SIBUD]

Here is the question that we should constantly be asking ourselves:

If we were to start BMW MOA today, what would it look like?

Specifically in regards to the Anonymous Book.

Ya want younger riders to be around in 20 years so we continue as an organization?

The answer is obvious. They, and some of us old pharts, don't want to carry a paperback book when we could have an e copy available 24/7 on a device that we will have with us at all times.

Of course, I'm preaching to the choir and look forward to the many announcements that Greg alluded to in the post above.

[88bmwJeff]

Sorry for the long, dry post, but yeah, an online/mobile version of the Anonymous Book would be fantastic (as would the magazine), but it would involve thinking through all the stuff (and more) that I just mentioned. And given that this is apparently, as Mika said, a five-year-old conversation, it's apparently a paradigm shift that isn't easily digested by MOA for any number of very legitimate reasons. I mean, MOA is at its core a motorcycle club, not a publishing company.

I don't see magazines being sent to me via the mail to be long term. Eventually, that type of print will go all electronic, and the BMW ON magazine will follow suit. Granted ON is now available online, but I don't know the ease of viewing on a tablet (such as the Ipad). So, moving the Anonymous Book to an electronic format is a when not an if. But as been mentioned, it will take some input from those who use it to shape it into its next incarnation. Since it's quite obvious that there are insufficient volunteers, the association will most likely have to pay to get it done. Although I do not use the A.B., I am in favor of making it more user friendly.

[GregFeeler]

I don't see magazines being sent to me via the mail to be long term. Eventually, that type of print will go all electronic, and the BMW ON magazine will follow suit. Granted ON is now available online, but I don't know the ease of viewing on a tablet (such as the Ipad). So, moving the Anonymous Book to an electronic format is a when not an if. But as been mentioned, it will take some input from those who use it to shape it into its next incarnation. Since it's quite obvious that there are insufficient volunteers, the association will most likely have to pay to get it done. Although I do not use the A.B., I am in favor of making it more user friendly.

There is a saying that TV didn't kill radio. But, it sure changed it. Everyone in publishing and communications is aware that the delivery and format of publications and information is change right before our eyes. We (the MOA) are keenly aware of these changes and tracking them and will position ourselves appropriately. If that sounds vague - it is - but that's about the only way to describe the current status. :nod

[88bmwJeff]

There is a saying that TV didn't kill radio. But, it sure changed it. Everyone in publishing and communications is aware that the delivery and format of publications and information is change right before our eyes. We (the MOA) are keenly aware of these changes and tracking them and will position ourselves appropriately. If that sounds vague - it is - but that's about the only way to describe the current status. :nod


Greg, my comments were not ment to be seen as critique of the boards decisions, and I hope they weren't viewed as such. While I believe changing to an electronic form only is a matter of time, it does not necessarily indicate that time is now. That's up to the board to make that decision. And, I have complete confidence that the board will make whatever changes it deems to be necessary.

[GregFeeler]

Greg, my comments were not ment to be seen as critique of the boards decisions, and I hope they weren't viewed as such. While I believe changing to an electronic form only is a matter of time, it does not necessarily indicate that time is now. That's up to the board to make that decision. And, I have complete confidence that the board will make whatever changes it deems to be necessary.

Jeff, I didn't take your comments as negative in any way. It's only logical people will speculate about changes to our media given all the changes happening. We (the Media Department really) have things in the works, but it's premature to discuss details or timing. And, it can sound like a dismissal to say something like "we're working on it", but we are. :)

[Rob Nye]

Good stuff folks.

A few comments.

I've used the anon book a few times.

The first time was outside of Houston during the Butt Lite II when I got a flat. Paul and his dog Oreo were my saviors.

The second time was in prep for a run to Daytona for bike week. I was looking for a place to stash a couple of pickup trucks and a trailer in Virginia so we could be get safely in and out New England in March. Worked like a champ, a bottle of rum got us a safe spot to leave vehicles for a week.

The third time was on the 07 IBR when I blew up my FD outside Edmonton. Once again the Anon book saved the day.

The fourth time was with the motor the hack blew in up in Oregon when taking my son cross country to college. That one was huge.

Since we're on the topic there is a lot more in the book than just anon member listings and much of this other information can be a game changer when you're broken down.

For example there is a list of Ambassadors by state in the book. When I was in Oregon at my wits end I figured out how valuable a resource an MOA Ambassador can be. After a few misses I looked up the closest Ambassador and gave him a call, figuring a MOA Ambassador would be plugged into the local scene. I sure wish I could remember his name (he's no longer listed) because he was huge in saving my trip. He got the local dealer to open up off hours to store my rig and drove us to he airport so I could rent a car.

Mr. Ambassador my son and I still talk about how the Anon book saved our bacon, thank you very much :bow
http://rpb.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Tours/Dillon-Tour/IMG0335/642495188_iR2hi-L.jpg

I've also been on the receiving end of a few calls although all but one were referrals, i.e. the member called someone else in the area and they called me or had the caller call me.

As an Ambassador and occasional recruiter I find the Anon book to be a valuable recruiting tool. In a face to face meeting this is more effective then showing off the Owners News as the Anon book really drives home the feeling of community.

Regarding electronic publishing I'm in the couldn't care less department. I consider the Anon book to part of my emergency gear. As such I would never consider an on-line version, iphone app and all that as a suitable replacement. There are places you still can't get a cell signal let alone data services with the throughput to effectively use the web.

The idea of the app dropping pins on a map showing participating members locations would still be pretty coarse as the db doesn't (and should never) include physical addresses. FWIW, my number in the Anon book is billed to my office so I feel pretty good that there's no way anyone could get my home address from the book.

I also fall into the camp that if it isn't secure or it's on a .PDF that I would opt out. Call me a cranky old phart but if you're on a tour and you can't look at a book with town names and figure out what towns are close without an electronic device perhaps you're not really ready to be out on tour. Again, you can't count on your smart phone connecting to everything, everywhere so why make a piece of emergency gear something that may or may not work? Do you want to use your primary communication device's battery up surfing a db for numbers or do you just want to dial from a sheet of paper? Personally if I had good access I'd use what battery power I have to put a help me post on a few forums and for making and receiving calls, not surfing a db to figure out who to call.

The question I'd ask the board is what is the true purpose of the Anon book. I believe the primary purpose is to provide a (emergency) resource for travelers, followed by social networking. The social networking is now all on-line but I do see some value of having a list of folks offering KK on-line, that would be good for trip planning for the folks who don't like to broadcast on the forum. As an aside I update my Anon info on-line so the data is already there.

I have no problem with an electronic version as we already have the data in correct format however I don't support spending any money on outside contractors, etc. I understand we have a real IT wiz in STL. If he can do it great otherwise the money should stay in the bank.

Putting it all on line would not improve the chances of a member getting assistance far from home.

[GregFeeler]

Regarding electronic publishing I'm in the couldn't care less department. I consider the Anon book to part of my emergency gear. As such I would never consider an on-line version, iphone app and all that as a suitable replacement. There are places you still can't get a cell signal let alone data services with the throughput to effectively use the web.

[SNIP]

I also fall into the camp that if it isn't secure or it's on a .PDF that I would opt out. Call me a cranky old phart but if you're on a tour and you can't look at a book with town names and figure out what towns are close without an electronic device perhaps you're not really ready to be out on tour. Again, you can't count on your smart phone connecting to everything, everywhere so why make a piece of emergency gear something that may or may not work? Do you want to use your primary communication device's battery up surfing a db for numbers or do you just want to dial from a sheet of paper? Personally if I had good access I'd use what battery power I have to put a help me post on a few forums and for making and receiving calls, not surfing a db to figure out who to call.

The question I'd ask the board is what is the true purpose of the Anon book. I believe the primary purpose is to provide a (emergency) resource for travelers, followed by social networking. The social networking is now all on-line but I do see some value of having a list of folks offering KK on-line, that would be good for trip planning for the folks who don't like to broadcast on the forum. As an aside I update my Anon info on-line so the data is already there.

I have no problem with an electronic version as we already have the data in correct format however I don't support spending any money on outside contractors, etc. I understand we have a real IT wiz in STL. If he can do it great otherwise the money should stay in the bank.

Putting it all on line would not improve the chances of a member getting assistance far from home.

Rob,
I appreciate your comments. We have received a growing number of requests for an electronic (i.e. "smartphone") version of the Anon Book. Although I know there will be situations without cell phone service often, in many of those cases if you don't have a working phone then having a number (from hardcopy) is of little value. They are now situations where people leave home without their Anon Book: they forgot, it was in the tank bag of the other bike, it got water destroyed during the last ride, etc.

Improving information delivery means provide more channels and formats, not less. Smartphone usage is exploding, and they and tablets will soon supplant traditional desktop and laptop computers - so we need to provide a lot of our information in formats for these devices. However, there are no plans to every discontinue a hard copy Anon Book. For all the reasons you noted, I personally would want a hard copy with me. However, I would use it as a backup, not a primary resource, and so could pack it deep in my gear rather than give up valuable tank bag space.

Finally, the biggest challenge is to keep the Anon Book secure from duplication and access by non-members. I'm in this book because right now I'm confident that it goes only to other MOA members. Frankly, I trust them more than non-members, especially if that non-member is contacting me using what he/she knows is stolen information. Right there I don't want them around. So this is a technical challenge and we'll have to have confidence in the solution.

[Rob Nye]

Rob,
I appreciate your comments. We have received a growing number of requests for an electronic (i.e. "smartphone") version of the Anon Book. Although I know there will be situations without cell phone service often, in many of those cases if you don't have a working phone then having a number (from hardcopy) is of little value. They are now situations where people leave home without their Anon Book: they forgot, it was in the tank bag of the other bike, it got water destroyed during the last ride, etc.

How much are we willing to spend to support folks that can't pack? If you're stuck in an area with no cell service there is a good chance that at some point someone will stop and help you get to a phone or make a call for you. If they take me to a phone I bring the book, if they make a call for me it's to the local authorities. Heck, some of the towns along RT 50 don't have cell service. As an aside how many folks carry a phone card from their tellco or a prepaid $20 long distance card when you tour? I fear there's a whole crop of younger riders who would be totally clueless if they blew their bike up in the middle of nowhere because they left home with a false sense of security. Granted these aren't reasons not to go on-line, just observations on how it will not enhance the chances of the system working.

Improving information delivery means provide more channels and formats, not less. Smartphone usage is exploding, and they and tablets will soon supplant traditional desktop and laptop computers - so we need to provide a lot of our information in formats for these devices. However, there are no plans to every discontinue a hard copy Anon Book. For all the reasons you noted, I personally would want a hard copy with me. However, I would use it as a backup, not a primary resource, and so could pack it deep in my gear rather than give up valuable tank bag space.

If you're broken down on the side of the road does it really matter if you have to unpack the bike? I hear ya on all the channel and format but not everything needs to be in every format does it?

Finally, the biggest challenge is to keep the Anon Book secure from duplication and access by non-members. I'm in this book because right now I'm confident that it goes only to other MOA members. Frankly, I trust them more than non-members, especially if that non-member is contacting me using what he/she knows is stolen information. Right there I don't want them around. So this is a technical challenge and we'll have to have confidence in the solution.

Agreed. Once again I'm not against making it electronic because I trust you to address the security concerns. What I am against is spending money in a down economy after an under performing (financially) rally on something that will not improve the core purpose of the book.

How much are we willing to spend to save someone a little packing space?

[GregFeeler]

How much are we willing to spend to support folks that can't pack? If you're stuck in an area with no cell service there is a good chance that at some point someone will stop and help you get to a phone or make a call for you. If they take me to a phone I bring the book, if they make a call for me it's to the local authorities. Heck, some of the towns along RT 50 don't have cell service. As an aside how many folks carry a phone card from their tellco or a prepaid $20 long distance card when you tour? I fear there's a whole crop of younger riders who would be totally clueless if they blew their bike up in the middle of nowhere because they left home with a false sense of security. Granted these aren't reasons not to go on-line, just observations on how it will not enhance the chances of the system working.

If you're broken down on the side of the road does it really matter if you have to unpack the bike? I hear ya on all the channel and format but not everything needs to be in every format does it?

Agreed. Once again I'm not against making it electronic because I trust you to address the security concerns. What I am against is spending money in a down economy after an under performing (financially) rally on something that will not improve the core purpose of the book.

How much are we willing to spend to save someone a little packing space?


Rob,
Your reasons for using the hardcopy Anon are valid. I don't disagree and I personally do the same thing. However, an electronic version is often requested by our current members, and is the type of delivery expected by the much sought after "younger" members. For the MOA to grow, we have to do a good job of satisfying our current member's expectations, but we also have to appeal to potential members, many of whom have different expectations (needs) in some areas. It's time for us to be more aggressive in our evolution - not less so.

[PGlaves]

Rob,
Your reasons for using the hardcopy Anon are valid. I don't disagree and I personally do the same thing. However, an electronic version is often requested by our current members, and is the type of delivery expected by the much sought after "younger" members. For the MOA to grow, we have to do a good job of satisfying our current member's expectations, but we also have to appeal to potential members, many of whom have different expectations (needs) in some areas. It's time for us to be more aggressive in our evolution - not less so.

Additions are good. In this specific case, subtractions are not.

I still remember the institutional chaos which resulted from the decision to make the Anonymous listing a 1-800 call in service in-lieu of printing the book. The member rebellion was enormous. That aside, the one time I needed to use it, standing at a phone booth in the wind at the north gate at Yellowstone trying to figure out what little towns to tell the hapless and helpless operator to look at, it (call-in service) was useless.

I will repeat - regardless of the spiffiness of the mobile application I would still carry the book for those many occasions where I am out of cell phone or other coverage. With the book I can always find the nearest landline phone, rotary dial and all, and call for help.

[Mika]

I believe security is a key issue in this discussion that must be addressed in a smart phone type app. I also believe Emperor Anon has no clothes when it comes to security.

Anon is marginally more secure than the telephone white pages. The current Anonymous Book is only 'secure' if it never comes in contact with a copying machine, is shredded/burned or otherwise destroyed at the end of its life and your and every other member's tankbag used to carry the book is never stolen. The book has the appearance of security because copied stole or scavenged from the waste bin copies have not gotten in the hands of someone who saw value in exploiting what they found. At the point someone sees value it is no more secure than the white pages.

Recruitment/retention of membership is a third purpose for the book not mentioned in the previous post. I would argue that is a major if not the primary issue in the discussion of a online/smart phone app. The needs of a decreasing existing membership may be well met by a print version but is it the key accessory for a BMW rider that convinces them to become/remain members?

I appreciate the attention and efforts of the BoD on this matter. I also realize the items on their plate related to the rally and such. Don't count them in the delaying factors for this not happening as of yet.

What has struck me every time this topic surfaces (it has surfaced every year I have been a forum member) is that no skunk works group of members has formed to produce a prototype. You can draw various conclusions from this observation. I see it as a symptom that there isn't the right combination of energy, skill and interest to tackle the project on a member volunteer basis.

When a former association treasurer urges keeping the money in the bank, the advice should not be taken lightly. I do not, yet I do not completely agree with the advice. We may have a very good IT guy in STL but is designing and building this a) truly in their area of expertise b) the best use of their time and salary? They should be the ones to write the RFP, monitor and manage the build and implementation and making certain the association's other systems are up to the task of handling the application's volume and making certain it is done securely. A quick and dirty breakeven analysis will tell the decision makes how many memberships recruited/retained are need to offset the expense over the expected life of a application build for an outside contractor to bang the code and other dirty work and be cost effective.

[Rob Nye]

If the only reason to put the anon book on-line is "marketing" or appealing to a new segment of BMW riders I have to say there must be much more effective ways to spend the money.

[GregFeeler]

I believe security is a key issue in this discussion that must be addressed in a smart phone type app. I also believe Emperor Anon has no clothes when it comes to security.

Anon is marginally more secure than the telephone white pages. The current Anonymous Book is only 'secure' if it never comes in contact with a copying machine, is shredded/burned or otherwise destroyed at the end of its life and your and every other member's tankbag used to carry the book is never stolen. The book has the appearance of security because copied stole or scavenged from the waste bin copies have not gotten in the hands of someone who saw value in exploiting what they found. At the point someone sees value it is no more secure than the white pages.

Sure, someone can photocopy - or scan - the Anon as it is. That's been an option for years. However, it's a PITA and there's not all that much exploitable information value, so the motivation would be to give free copies to your cheapskate non-member BMW riding buddies for their cross country trip. At the other extreme, a PDF version of the Anon (NO - we're not going to do that) would be like encouraging people to pass it around. So, as you clearly point out, an electronic Anon only needs to be as "secure" as the present hardcopy version.

Recruitment/retention of membership is a third purpose for the book not mentioned in the previous post. I would argue that is a major if not the primary issue in the discussion of a online/smart phone app. The needs of a decreasing existing membership may be well met by a print version but is it the key accessory for a BMW rider that convinces them to become/remain members?

I mentioned that in my last reply to Rob.

I appreciate the attention and efforts of the BoD on this matter. I also realize the items on their plate related to the rally and such. Don't count them in the delaying factors for this not happening as of yet.

What has struck me every time this topic surfaces (it has surfaced every year I have been a forum member) is that no skunk works group of members has formed to produce a prototype. You can draw various conclusions from this observation. I see it as a symptom that there isn't the right combination of energy, skill and interest to tackle the project on a member volunteer basis.

Certainly a member/volunteer solution or project would be appreciated, but this is a project of our Media Department.

When a former association treasurer urges keeping the money in the bank, the advice should not be taken lightly.

Rob was Secretary a number of years ago - not Treasurer.

I do not, yet I do not completely agree with the advice. We may have a very good IT guy in STL but is designing and building this a) truly in their area of expertise b) the best use of their time and salary? They should be the ones to write the RFP, monitor and manage the build and implementation and making certain the association's other systems are up to the task of handling the application's volume and making certain it is done securely. A quick and dirty breakeven analysis will tell the decision makes how many memberships recruited/retained are need to offset the expense over the expected life of a application build for an outside contractor to bang the code and other dirty work and be cost effective.

I appreciate everyone's interest in this topic, but believe I've contributed all I can at this point. We don't have such a service yet, but we are planning on it. Our current members want this service, and it advances our technology. It will be "secure" (enough), cost effective, and while it will please some but it will not appeal to everyone. We won't be eliminating the hardcopy version, but it might be an option to opt out of the hardcopy. I'm going to have to bow out now. Thanks for your comments. If you *really* feel strongly about this (or any other topic) send your comments to "board@bmwmoa.org". They will get read that way by the whole Board, which is not the case with forum threads. Thanks.

[Mika]

If the only reason to put the anon book on-line is "marketing" or appealing to a new segment of BMW riders I have to say there must be much more effective ways to spend the money.

If that were the only reason I would agree with you. Based on what I have read in this and other threads on this topic that is not the case being argued.

snipped.

So, as you clearly point out, an electronic Anon only needs to be as "secure" as the present hardcopy version.

I mentioned that in my last reply to Rob.
I was writing while you were posting so missed your comments before hitting the submit button :wave



Certainly a member/volunteer solution or project would be appreciated, but this is a project of our Media Department.



Rob was Secretary a number of years ago - not Treasurer. :blush my mistake.



I too must go do other things.