Your speed in the twisties

[BCKRIDER]

This is a serious question: "how Do You determine a fun but safe appropriate entry speed for the curves on those twisty two lane back roads?" You know the ones: there is a curve sign, a "suggested" speed, and the almost certain knowledge that there is no LEO waiting around the bend.

Sure, it depends upon conditions. So here are the hypothetical conditions for your response: sunny 70 degree day; pavement dry; pavement good with no potholes and no loose gravel on the road in first three miles - though the shoulder is gravel; slight cambre in both directions from the center line; traffic in both directions very light; almost all curves are "blind" because of rock formations or trees.

Do you check your speedometer? If so, by what percentage do you increase your entry speed over the suggested one? Do you use the suggested speed as an indication of what gear you should use? Do you cover your front brake in curves? Do you believe you could stop within your sight distance? Where do you look approaching and making the turn? (Feel free to add advice or tactics which have served you well.)

Hey, there are two months or more of winter ahead of me. Time to think about riding. Hope this OP rouses some discussion and gets us all thinking about how to ride those twisties we all love in a fashion which brings us home smiling and safe.

[KGT1200]

Interesting post.

I don't consciously think about it at all; it all comes from a lifetime of experience in previous roads, my brain does the calculations on its own.

The things I think of that may influence the calculations and the speed is the pitch and yaw; how steep the incline, up or down.

Some roads were built with a pitch that you just feel when you begin cutting a line from outside to in. If the road engineer did it right, the road is pitched from left to right or right to left just right to allow for rapid increase of speed increase on the apex, and out of the corner. The speed going into the corner is based on the design of the road, and you just feel it as you begin the turn.

Having said that, this forum is full of "experts" who will correct me here, so get your pencil sharpened and take notes, because I'm sure the experts will give you the right way to do it.

But for this hillbilly, that’s my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!:thumb

[Semper_Fi]

+1 same for me

I dont approach a turn at Y mph if it shows x mph, it is solely based on conditions (road, weather, bike) and comfort level,

The one thing I do try to do at the utmost is to NEVER cross of the line, especially on blind curves, never know who is coming.

Great question

[From MARS]

Doug, the greatest consideration, for me, is have I been there before, recently. Other considerations are: am I on a trip or day ride, is the bike loaded down or naked, besides the "curve ahead" sign, is there an "intersection" sign, what's happening in the area, is there construction or harvesting going on which may mean "crap" in the curve. (For instance, cattle haulers loose cow poop in curves and that's slippery s**t) I never enter an unfamiliar curve anywhere close to maxed out; too many possible gotcha's. But having said all that, I generally set myself up for entry at 50% over the "recommended" speed. That involves shifting down and positioning myself, both on the road and on the bike, properly before entry.

Tom

[Manfred]

In Texas (and most places - I think), the cautionary signs near cures are not enforceable - they're for advice only. I've found that the posted cautionary speeds as relates to the actual curves vary greatly from place to place - I think the guidance given civil engineers for this task must be very broad. But in most places - all the things noted above being nominal - I can take those curve between 50% and 100% higher than the cautionary speed. Of course, if I'm on a nice 2 lane road with a 65 MPH speed limit and approach a series of curves with a 45 MPH cautionary speed, I do not speed up to 75 or more - I simply keep it at or a little above the 65 MPH speed limit. It's the 30 to 40 MPH cautionary speed turns that are the most fun!

[BeemoKat]

I don't have a real set formula, the previous posts have put it very nicely. I'll just add an anecdote or two.
Here in Michigan, the "suggested" speed postings are very conservative; I generally add 50%, some other riders I know, more skilled than I, actually double the suggested speeds. But a lot depends on if the corner is blind, how recently I've been there, am I loaded down in touring mode...all factors mentioned by previous posts.

The first time I encountered "real twisties", as opposed to the sweepers we find on the river and lake roads here in MI, was in West Virginia. I entered the first marked corner at about 10mph over the posted speed, and that was the LAST corner I entered over the posted speed the rest of the day! I got through fine, but the thought in my head was that I hadn't seen another vehicle on that road in the last 45 minutes, it was long way down off of one shoulder, a very short distance into rocks and other hard stuff off the other shoulder, and that there was probably no cell phone coverage. All in all, a very bad place to make a mistake.

I tend to ride conservatively when I'm touring. It paid off, also in West Virginia a couple of years ago. I'd just come down from a very steep and twisty section of US 50, and was tempted to turn up up the wick in a set of sweepers, when I heard the sound of a high revving motor coming the other way. I had just decided to resist the urge when I caught sight of the source of that sound: A Mustang convertible with his entire left quarter-panel in my lane. I was mighty glad that I didn't need my whole lane to hold a line. Sometimes just staying to the right of the double-yellow is NOT enough!

[hlothery]

I'm generally slightly more aggressive if it is just me, and very conservative if my spouse is on the back. I generally follow the posted speed limits, but the advisory speeds in corners I use as a basic guideline on unfamiliar roads ( I use the old +10MPH formula), and almost totally ignore them on familiar roads. I have encountered gravel in the center of a large percentage of turns on back roads, often not visible from the entry point. Therefore, I tend to lean toward more conservative speeds (no pun intended).

PS I always pull over when save, and wave faster riders/drivers by.

[jimratliff]

I attended a seminar at the NEFL rally last year given by Susan Galpins (sp), who recommended using the advised speed, double it, and subtract 10. It seems to work pretty well on dry clear roads, and is probably on the conservitive side. Some riders use double that speed without the subtraction factor.
Jim

[Greenwald]

Here's what I would suggest: First, forget about any 'ideal or target speed.'

Speed will be determined by your technique and level of experience.

But I understand your curiousity: You are approaching a new curve for the first time, and want to enjoy the experience of negotiating it on a motorcycle, safely but with a little 'thrill factor' tossed in. Very understandable.

As you approach a new curve that looks like fun, dump much of your 'approach speed' (assuming you have distanced yourself from tailgators), and (this part is crucial) make sure you position your front tire on the 'outside' of the curve as you enter it.

That way, you can drift inward thru the curve (which might be towards a shoulder or a centerline, depending on the type of curve), and gently roll on the throttle to achieve the max velocity that conditions will tolerate.

Then let centrifugal force cause you to exit the curve again on its outside edge. "Always be looking where you want to go; don't be lookin' around at where you are - you're already there." Remember: The bike obeys the body; the body obeys the brain; the brain obeys the eyes.

Outside - Inside - Outside: the perfect path of travel for any curve. Smooth is fast.

Slowing down may not feel like what you want to do to achieve that 'thrill factor,' but as you learn to roll on the throttle more confidently with each opportunity to practice negotiating curves, you will be amazed at your speed.

If speed gets away from you in a curve, do not brake (abrupt braking when a bike is not perpendicular to the ground has its own vicious penalty!), but simply roll off the throttle and lean a bit more away from the direction you do not wish to go - it works.

Give these methods a consistent workout next time you have twisties to play with, and amaze yourself!

[Visian]

.... some other riders I know, more skilled than I, actually double the suggested speeds.

oh, i would never do that! :evil

[Cal]

Listen to Greenwald, work on your technique once that becomes second nature speed will increase naturally.

Main thing is to ride lots of miles in the mountains and never ever allow your ego to take charge.

Cal Garcia

[Brettendress]

Great discussion, I always ride a curve harder if I know it and am sure I can handle it. I always worry if I have someone behind me that has not been on the road before. I have scared the heck out of myself riding a road that I "forget" about a corner or come upon an unexpected obsticle. I agree to let it come natural and increase your skills as you grow as a rider.

[TexanRT]

If speed gets away from you, do not brake (braking when a bike is not perpendicular to the ground has its own vicious penalty!), but simply roll off the throttle and lean a bit more away from the direction you do not wish to go - it works.

I started riding again a few years ago and was asking myself the same questions -- how to properly analyze a corner. I soon was looking for something more than the MSF courses and found Stayin' Safe. I won't go into a long testimonial, but can say they helped me achieve a whole new level of riding ability. Many of their tools and techniques for analyzing a corner you can get from lots of practice and experience on your own, but they help you put it all together with real-time instruction via one-way radio while you're riding.

After the courses (I've taken two tours with them) I have practiced what they've taught me about keeping your eyes moving for threats and changing road conditions, looking down the road and far through the corner to determine where the exit is (or if the corner is decreasing in radius), watching the road sides for visual clues as to where the road is leading (especially important in hilly terrain when you cannot see beyond the next rise), setting a proper entry speed and keeping the bike stable through the corner, then rolling on the throttle when I see the exit.

The other thing they taught that was most important was handling a corner when you've entered a bit too fast -- more lean or pushing on the opposite grip (countersteer) to get you through the turn. Of course, it's important to keep some lean angle in reserve. The other thing that I had to get over was the tendency to avoid "more lean." I used to have a hesitation about adding more lean into a corner -- so I began using countersteering instead -- one of the methods emphasized during the Stayin' Safe tours. Now I countersteer to add more lean when it's necessary, keeping in mind just how far I can push the limits of tire adhesion and ground clearance -- that came by practice and experience.

With their help, and lots of practice on my own, I'm confident enough to tackle some challenging roads at a brisk pace even if I haven't ridden there before.

Finally, I'll add that one of my instructors, Pete Tamblyn, recently took the Lee Parks Total Control class and highly recommended it. That's next on my list.

[Sue]

We have a riding buddy who we call "The Awful ONE" Great guy, incredible motorcyclist. However, he rides with RapidRoy - what does that tell you? :D

He used to say that if the speed limit sign is in the teens, then that actually means as FAST AS YOU CAN GO in first gear. If the sign is in the twenties, then that actually means AS FAST AS YOU CAN GO in second gear. And so on...

It was a fun joke, and one I think of frequently and smile - when I am leaned over in a curve in second or third gear.

Seriously though - every day is different, every road is different. Sometimes I am in the groove and just feel relaxed and dialed-in. On those days, I ride a little hotter. On the other hand, some days I am more tense, not as comfortable on the bike, and might not know the roads - - on those days, I am more conservative.

Snowing here like crazy today. dang.

[RoboRider]

Obviously, it depends on so many things as you noted. I drive by feel. And by how I feel. Sometimes I am in the mood to cruise, sometimes I'm in the mood to light it up. And you can only do that for short periods of time. You can't ride all out all day. Even on the track with a track bike, I'm shot after seven 20 minute sessions and I usually leave and skip session 8--I'm just too tired to be safe.

I find on the RT that I can EASILY add 15mph entry speed on any corner. If it's marked 15 mph, 30 works fine. On a 10 mph corner, 20 is about my max as the RT will drag a foot peg on those and I prefer not to do that--that's my safety buffer if I've over estimated.

But one thing is certain, the right bike (non cruiser) will lean more than your brain will usually accept. If you cross a double yellow it's because YOU gave up, not the machine. Until you're leaned off and dragging a peg, the bike has more turn in it if needed.

[Manfred]

All the tips about how to not kill one's self are great. I benefited from this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884313760/ref=ox_ya_oh_product), though much of the content was stuff I already knew - simply had never applied.

[AKBeemer]

Treat every unknown, blind cornor as a decreasing radius turn. Enter as wide as safely possible; commit as late as possible to the apex. Has worked for me.

[kgadley01]

most of what everyone has already said is good advice. I would like to coment on your where to look question. when racing I was taught to look threw your turn. otherwise look where you want to go. always leave yourself a way out incase something unexpected happens. on a left turn, I try to enter the turn as close to the center of the road as possible. do not touch the center line. that paint can be slippery and can put you down. entering near the center on a left turn and to the right on right turn gives you room to adjust if you need to. be carefull....

[BubbaZanetti]

He used to say that if the speed limit sign is in the teens, then that actually means as FAST AS YOU CAN GO in first gear. If the sign is in the twenties, then that actually means AS FAST AS YOU CAN GO in second gear. And so on...


cool, i'll hop on my R1 and hit that 15 mph decreasing radius turn at about 97.:hungover

[pffog]

Like many have already said, signs mean nothing, in fact I NEVER look for them and 99% of the time I don't consciously see them.

I am looking at the corner and road conditions as I approach, but before my turn in am looking as far down the road as I can see, sometimes it is even 2 or 3 corners ahead.

The big mistake most make is looking 50' ahead of the bike, looking for hazards, apexes and exit points. That is way to close, and way to late to do anything about it, in fact is you try to react at the last second, you will probably make it worse.

I learned from skiing the bumps that the brain will remember points you picked out moments before, so you always look 4 or 5 bumps ahead. For those that don't ski, think about hopping on rocks across a stream, do you look at your feet to make sure it lands on the intended place, or do you look ahead 3 or 4 or more steps ahead and pick the path and your feet magically land just where you wanted them to? Riding is the same, I am sizing up the next corner as I hit my turn in, apex, and exit points with out even thinking about it.

SMOOTH was mentioned and that IS the key to riding quick, to do this looking ahead is critical.

Personally I am a slow in fast out guy, Nick Ienatsch, Keith Code and others preach this technique, it gives you more time to react to something unexpected, and since you are usually accelerating through the corner gives you higher exit speed to get to the next corner quicker.

Also at least on the boxers when running spirited I am in the 4000+ RPM range. By being in a lower gear the only speed control you usually need is the throttle, even though I am pretty quick in technical tight stuff, I seldom use the brakes. I look at it this way, I want my brain processing as far ahead as it can so if I don't add brakes and clutch to the process, more of my gray matter CPU resources are available fo it.

BTW Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch is a good book, I can't say I learned a lot as I already practiced much of what he preached, but it reinforced what I was already doing.

And find your closest track day, you will learn more in one day than you would riding the street for a year.

[PGlaves]

As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same.

The other factor is that different states, and in some states different counties apparently use more conservative or less conservative criteria is posting those advisory signs. I normally judge corners without really looking at my speedometer, but the ones that say 10 or 15 or even 20 usually cause me to check my entry speed with the speedo.

[BubbaZanetti]

The other factor is that different states, and in some states different counties apparently use more conservative or less conservative criteria is posting those advisory signs. I normally judge corners without really looking at my speedometer, but the ones that say 10 or 15 or even 20 usually cause me to check my entry speed with the speedo.

ditto

the 40-45 corner advisory in a 55 zone does not result in me lowering my speed at all and more than likely results in an increased speed as i know i am getting a good sweeper. it's the slow WAY down to less than 50 percent of the avg posted speed tight turns that require more attention.

[KGT1200]

Here's what I would suggest: First, forget about any 'ideal or target speed.'

Speed will be determined by your technique and level of experience.

But I understand your curiousity: You are approaching a new curve for the first time, and want to enjoy the experience of negotiating it on a motorcycle, safely but with a little 'thrill factor' tossed in. Very understandable.

As you approach a new curve that looks like fun, dump much of your 'approach speed' (assuming you have distanced yourself from tailgators), and (this part is crucial) make sure you position your front tire on the 'outside' of the curve as you enter it.

That way, you can drift inward thru the curve (which might be towards a shoulder or a centerline, depending on the type of curve), and gently roll on the throttle to achieve the max velocity that conditions will tolerate.

Then let centrifugal force cause you to exit the curve again on its outside edge. "Always be looking where you want to go; don't be lookin' around at where you are - you're already there." Remember: The bike obeys the body; the body obeys the brain; the brain obeys the eyes.

Outside - Inside - Outside: the perfect path of travel for any curve. Smooth is fast.

Slowing down may not feel like what you want to do to achieve that 'thrill factor,' but as you learn to roll on the throttle more confidently with each opportunity to practice negotiating curves, you will be amazed at your speed.

If speed gets away from you in a curve, do not brake (braking when a bike is not perpendicular to the ground has its own vicious penalty!), but simply roll off the throttle and lean a bit more away from the direction you do not wish to go - it works.

Give these methods a consistent workout next time you have twisties to play with, and amaze yourself!

:thumb

[barryg]

Been riding the twisties just north of Memphis, Tn., close to the Mississippi River on the Chickasaw Bluffs. Lots of short tight turns. Road surrounded by many small farms with livestock, interspersed with stands of trees and intercrossed with many small streams and creeks. Lots of debris in the roads which seems to accumulate in the turns. That combined with the short sight distance keeps my speed at a manageable pace. Really been digging it.

[crazydrummerdude]

the 40-45 corner advisory in a 55 zone does not result in me lowering my speed at all and more than likely results in an increased speed as i know i am getting a good sweeper.

In my truck, it means 15 over.. on the motorcycle... 25?

:ha

[Visian]

Outside - Inside - Outside: the perfect path of travel for any curve. Smooth is fast.

great post. :thumb

countersteering adds to the magic, too.

[BubbaZanetti]

great post. :thumb

countersteering adds to the magic, too.

ever since i became a Rider Coach I find myself doing the O-I-O routine in my fiancee's CAR.

[murphychuck]

Living in the far west corner of NC,I have no choice,but to ride the twisties! I've always looked at posted speed signs on curves to be for cars and trucks. That said I usually run at about 10-20 miles over the sign. Every turn is different and unless it is one I regularly travel I am very cautious about how I approach each new curve. I've found out that the further back I'm on my seat,the better I can do the serious twisties around here! My favorite roads near my home are Rt 68 in TN,Rt 60 in Ga. and Rt 28 in Nc.:thumb

[Visian]

ever since i became a Rider Coach I find myself doing the O-I-O routine in my fiancee's CAR.

when it's on two wheels, i take it! :brow

[BeemoKat]

Living in the far west corner of NC,I have no choice,but to ride the twisties! I've always looked at posted speed signs on curves to be for cars and trucks. That said I usually run at about 10-20 miles over the sign. Every turn is different and unless it is one I regularly travel I am very cautious about how I approach each new curve. I've found out that the further back I'm on my seat,the better I can do the serious twisties around here! My favorite roads near my home are Rt 68 in TN,Rt 60 in Ga. and Rt 28 in Nc.:thumb

Real twisties being hard to find in MI, I take it easy when I'm in your part of the country. But don't worry, I'll move over and let you by.

[ragtoplvr]

Missouri and Arkansas seem pretty consistent in their signs. If I have familiar clear road and good sight lines I can take a 25 MPH corner at 60 to 65 indicated, and have good reserve, as indicated by chicken strips on the tires. That said, "pretty consistent signs" does NOT mean 100 % consistent. So I always size up a corner visually, and compare to the sign. If I think a corner is a 40 MPH corner, and the sign says 30 MPH I go with it. If I think a corner is a 50 MPH corner and the sign says 25 MPH, I will slow down to around 35 to 40 all indicated again, my mental corner computer is not 100%. There is no crime in that either, as long as you remember that! There is no crime in taking a corner too slow, there will be another day. As opposed to too fast, it is the best option.

There is one nice wide open 15 MPH marked corner in Kansas that I play on, so far I have it at 60 indicated, but I think due to wrecks the county put an over conservative speed on it. It is WIDE open, 1/4 mile visibility minimum, so I can use all the road, which does make a big difference. I think 70 would be about the limit, 60 is a big thrill though. I always pre-ride it to check for dirt, sand etc. Then I go back a few times.

Much of the time, I do not get the delicious horizontal acceleration pushing you into the seat on a corner, there are very few roads with good enough sight lines for that around here. But when it happens, :wow

Rod

[TexanRT]

Seriously though - every day is different, every road is different. Sometimes I am in the groove and just feel relaxed and dialed-in. On those days, I ride a little hotter. On the other hand, some days I am more tense, not as comfortable on the bike, and might not know the roads - - on those days, I am more conservative.

:thumb

[119113]

I don't have a real set formula, the previous posts have put it very nicely. I'll just add an anecdote or two.
Here in Michigan, the "suggested" speed postings are very conservative; I generally add 50%, some other riders I know, more skilled than I, actually double the suggested speeds. But a lot depends on if the corner is blind, how recently I've been there, am I loaded down in touring mode...all factors mentioned by previous posts.

The first time I encountered "real twisties", as opposed to the sweepers we find on the river and lake roads here in MI, was in West Virginia. I entered the first marked corner at about 10mph over the posted speed, and that was the LAST corner I entered over the posted speed the rest of the day! I got through fine, but the thought in my head was that I hadn't seen another vehicle on that road in the last 45 minutes, it was long way down off of one shoulder, a very short distance into rocks and other hard stuff off the other shoulder, and that there was probably no cell phone coverage. All in all, a very bad place to make a mistake.

I tend to ride conservatively when I'm touring. It paid off, also in West Virginia a couple of years ago. I'd just come down from a very steep and twisty section of US 50, and was tempted to turn up up the wick in a set of sweepers, when I heard the sound of a high revving motor coming the other way. I had just decided to resist the urge when I caught sight of the source of that sound: A Mustang convertible with his entire left quarter-panel in my lane. I was mighty glad that I didn't need my whole lane to hold a line. Sometimes just staying to the right of the double-yellow is NOT enough!

ditto.

In Michigan, 2X the posted speed, but never cross the yellow.

[beemermyke]

When I make my annual trek up to places like the Tail of the Dragon and the Cherohala Skyway, the road conditions determine my speed. If they are dry and clear of debris, a personal rule of thumb is usually no more than 20mph over the posted speed limit, especially when it comes to the curves. I adjust accordingly dependent on traffic and road conditions.

[32232]

I have a rule of thumb I use for calculating safe speed for curves on unfamiliar Canadian roads. It assumes there is no concern about traffic, traction or the like, in which case more caution would be exercised.

Having been a rider when metric road signs went into use here in 1977, and from riding in the US, I'm quick at converting my metric speedometer reading to mph and vice versa.

When approaching a curve that has the yellow cautionary reduced speed limit sign in kilometers an hour (for example 30 km/h for a curve in an 80 zone) I will carry the cautionary speed, but in mph instead of km/h.

In this case 30 mph would translate to 50 km/h for this curve. 50 km/h would be 50 mph which translates to 80km/h, and so on. The conversion is roughly 1.6 times the cautionary reduced speed posted. Sound complex, but is very simple if you're "bilingual".

Since the cautionary speed signs are calibrated for a bad driver in a minivan with bald tires and worn out shocks, these speeds are easy to carry with little drama, provided road conditions are clear.

[haughty]

I
Since the cautionary speed signs are calibrated for a bad driver in a minivan with bald tires and worn out shocks, these speeds are easy to carry with little drama, provided road conditions are clear.

I need to be on the lookout for that calibration vehicle then:jester

[Rapid_Roy]

cool, i'll hop on my R1 and hit that 15 mph decreasing radius turn at about 97.:hungover
You can try. The Awful One only rides old airheads, and at close to 400,000 miles, he knows them pretty good.

[BeemoKat]

I always like to think "I could have ridden that faster" when I exit the corner, not the other way round! ;)

[Voni]

. . . as indicated by chicken strips on the tires. . .

Rod

I call those my "margins for error"

Nice to know I always have more lean in reserve!

Voni
sMiling

[Rob Nye]

If I was going to point to one article that has had the greatest impact on my riding it would be The Pace by Nick Ienatsch.

Read it, ride it, love it.

The Pace (http://http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html).

[108625]

No mathmatical equation works for me because I'm not looking at my speedometer.
Haven't hit a stray cow yet, or slid on a cow pie, either.

No chicken strips on the Viffer, for that matter.

As Bubba pointed out, advice for one bike doesn't neccessarily apply to another. Neither does advice for one rider. Ultimately, only one rider can get you from point A to point B and back again, and it ain't me.:brow

[RTFlyer]

On roads I'm familiar with, I don't need the speedo, but I know that it's not unusual to enter at about 30 over the "recommended" speed on a decent road with good sight lines. Like others, I rarely decelerate for a turn that's posted at 45 or more.

On unfamiliar roads I know the 20-30 over is usually a cinch and that a hard acceleration out of the turn is the best approach for me. If I find a good stretch of road and am only out to increase my carbon footprint anyway, I'll backtrack and give it another shot if I feel like I left a little in the tank.

[PGlaves]

On unfamiliar roads I know the 20-30 over is usually a cinch and that a hard acceleration out of the turn is the best approach for me.

Don't try that in the Texas Big Bend - particularly Ross Maxwell Drive in the National Park or the River Road (FM170) from Lajitas to Presidio unless you are quite accomplished at riding in two-wheel drifts. There is this little matter of spots of sand on the pavement.

Which is why every spring they haul several in-over-their-head motorcyclists to the hospital and every year or so haul one or two to the morgue.

[pmdave]

[QUOTE=PGlaves;532564]As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same.

I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.

Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.

So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.

Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.

My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.

pmdave

[pmdave]

This has been a great discussion, and points out that a lot of us are interested in riding skills.

So, forum bigwigs, why don't we have a specific part of the forum dedicated to riding skills?

pmdave

[ultracyclist]

pmdave has just surmised the focus of "Riders Workshop".

[RTFlyer]

Don't try that in the Texas Big Bend - particularly Ross Maxwell Drive in the National Park or the River Road (FM170) from Lajitas to Presidio unless you are quite accomplished at riding in two-wheel drifts. There is this little matter of spots of sand on the pavement.

Which is why every spring they haul several in-over-their-head motorcyclists to the hospital and every year or so haul one or two to the morgue.

I learned that lesson in a 280Z at about 115 MPH in Colorado when I was twenty! There was sand left on the road from a previous snow. I did a couple 360's and ended up against a tree on the outside of the turn. I took the tree square on the rear drivers-side axle. About a foot forward and I would have been toast.

I'm talking about decent roads with no FOD and good sight lines.

[TexanRT]

As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same. -- Glaves

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface. - pmdave

Great points. Maintaining a speed that provides a safe and adequate braking distance in limited-sight corners was driven home to me the few times I turned a bend at Deal's Gap or some other mountain road only to find a 5th Wheel RV across my lane.

I spend lots of time watching the surface, too. Always scanning the surface for things that might cause the tires to break loose in the corner. Looking for imperfections in the road surface or debris. I remember riding highway 16 in Virginia earlier this year and it was covered with twigs and gravel in some of the corners that required us to ride at a more conservative pace.

[John Brase]

Here's the simple yet definitive answer:

The first number on the curve sign tells you what gear to be in. The bike should be "up on the cam," meaning 4500-5000 RPM.

That works for most BMW transmission ratios but NOT the C model cruiser bikes. And you should check a little when you cross state lines because some road engineers see things a little differently.

But, you are on your own out there and it is your responsibility to make sure you have good sight lines and the surface is nice.

John

[pffog]

...........I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.

I could not disagree more, I fully agree with the sight distance being one of the important inputs, but to call reading the road, corner and exit a "seat of the pants" approach, would mean every racer that ever rode on a new track were flying by the seat of their pants. It is a SKILL, developed over time by observation and experiance. The statistics you refer to include the squids that after riding 6 months, think they are a Jedi master.



Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.

IMHO 1/2 on road surface is too much, it should be a split second well BEFORE turn in, to adjust speed and line, if you are looking 50' ahead, it is too late and target fixation takes over, further increasing the chance of hitting what you want to avoid, target fixation is well documented, and if at the last minute you see something you will tense up or jab the brakes and STILL hit the hazard. Only now you hit it on the brakes and with a death grip on the bars and increase your chance of loosing control. A light grip and relaxed posture lets the bike due what it was designed to o, and for 99.9% of us, the bike is better than we are.


Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.

Again disagree, I know where the brakes are and will use them when needed, and I cover them most of the time, but see above. 90% of the time you are better off looking where you want to go and trusting the bike to get you there. Many bikes, dependent on tires and geometry, will stand up when the brakes are in a corner, not good and sure to take you off the line, look WHERE you want to go and get there. Don't believe me, go to the GAP and look at the skid marks going straight off the road. Most bikes will achieve a lean angle that is well beyond what our brain is comfortable with, and that fear causes us to do the wrong thing and crash.

So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.

See previous comments , like any skill, it takes time, but once developed is invaluable. Those that choose not to continually learn are destine to fail. Knowledge and skill has to be improved, challenged, and increased constantly, or it vanishes.


Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.

Good skill, but braking IN a corner does lessen the traction for cornering, Smooth is good, and IMHO, no brakes is smoother than using them.


My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.pmdave


BINGO, that IMHO is the only way to ride the street at spirited pace, slow in fast out! Steady or accelerating all the way to the apex and beyond.

[rinty]

:lurk

[PGlaves]

Ya know, there are a handful of people I just don't argue with about Proficient Motorcycling or More Proficient Motorcycling and pmdave is one of them.

[EXR911]

This is a serious question: "how Do You determine a fun but safe appropriate entry speed for the curves on those twisty two lane back roads?" You know the ones: there is a curve sign, a "suggested" speed, and the almost certain knowledge that there is no LEO waiting around the bend.

Sure, it depends upon conditions. So here are the hypothetical conditions for your response: sunny 70 degree day; pavement dry; pavement good with no potholes and no loose gravel on the road in first three miles - though the shoulder is gravel; slight cambre in both directions from the center line; traffic in both directions very light; almost all curves are "blind" because of rock formations or trees.

Do you check your speedometer? If so, by what percentage do you increase your entry speed over the suggested one? Do you use the suggested speed as an indication of what gear you should use? Do you cover your front brake in curves? Do you believe you could stop within your sight distance? Where do you look approaching and making the turn? (Feel free to add advice or tactics which have served you well.)

Hey, there are two months or more of winter ahead of me. Time to think about riding. Hope this OP rouses some discussion and gets us all thinking about how to ride those twisties we all love in a fashion which brings us home smiling and safe.

On any corner, even familiar ones, I always use the "limit point" technique to determine entry speed as outlined in the book "Motorcycle Roadcraft" pages 91-96.

In effect, always be able to stop the bike within the the distance ahead which you can see to be clear.

PT9766

[kbasa]

oh, i would never do that! :evil

:ha

Me either.

[kbasa]

[
Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.


+1

I'm highly interested in surface conditions as they'll dictate your ability to generate side loads in the corner.

When I'd been riding for 3 or 4 years, I dumped an R75/7 on an exit ramp in anti-freeze. That taught me pretty quickly to pay attention to the road surface. For me, the difficulty is that watching the road surface can lead to looking down, which doesn't help me set a proper point of aim on exit.

I constantly have to work on this, but am getting better at watching the surface, while also keeping my head up to chart a proper line and exit.

[Professor]

If you have to brake in the curve, your entry speed is too fast. The MSF defines proper entry speed as the speed which allows you to maintain or increase your speed throughout the curve. Do all of your slowing before entering the curve, then accelerate all the way through. Sure we misjudge on occasion and enter a little hot, but if that happens often, please re-think your strategy. An MSF Basic or Experienced Rider Course can do wonders for your cornering ability. A riding buddy of mine with 30 years experience recently took the Basic course. He says his cornering has improved dramatically.

Slow in, Fast out and Outside, Inside, Outside provide the most efficient cornering.

We can get away with violating these principles most of the time, but all it takes is one unexpected slick spot, animal, slow farm vehicle, on-coming traffic on our side of the road, etc. to ruin our day.

I have a friend with over a million documented miles on motorcycles who loves fast cornering. Lots of experience - no accidents - until suddenly he was lying in the bushes on the side of the road suffering from numerous contusions, a fractured collar bone, and a badly damaged motorcycle. It could have been much worse.

[TexanRT]

If I was going to point to one article that has had the greatest impact on my riding it would be The Pace by Nick Ienatsch.

Read it, ride it, love it.

Great article. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html

Cornering momentum is the name of the game, stressing strong, forceful inputs at the handlebar to place the bike correctly at the entrance of the turn and get it flicked in with little wasted time and distance. Since the throttle wasn't slammed open at the exit of the last corner, the next corner doesn't require much, if any, braking. It isn't uncommon to ride with our group and not see a brake light flash all morning.

+1 I've ridden behind people that are constantly on their brakes with no apparent plan or pattern to their braking or cornering. On the other hand, I ride frequently with a good friend who's so smooth through the corners, you can tell he's really in tune with what's going on -- when his brake light does come on, you know there's something ahead you need to be aware of.

[Rob Nye]

Great article. http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/index.html



+1 I've ridden behind people that are constantly on their brakes with no apparent plan or pattern to their braking or cornering. On the other hand, I ride frequently with a good friend who's so smooth through the corners, you can tell he's really in tune with what's going on -- when his brake light does come on, you know there's something ahead you need to be aware of.

Exactly. There are very few people I'll follow. When I see their brake light I know they see something I don't. Riders who randomly brake or brake because they can't set up / anticipate turns get passed.

I've ridden the pace behind a few "rickey racer" types. I make sure they go first and I get a chuckle at how surprised the are to see how much distance gets closed on the turns. That just makes them hammer the bike harder and go slower.

Following a good rider is like increasing your sight distance around the corner.

[SIBUD]

[QUOTE=PGlaves;532564]As far as I'm concerned the critical factor is sight distance and braking distance. There is a huge difference in my speeds in the woods in Arkansas compared to my speeds here in the Texas Big Bend. In the woods, sight distance around/through the corner is often limited while here it is often the case that sight distance is a long way through the corner even when the geometry of the curves are the same.

I agree with Paul here. It would be nice to hear that most motorcyclists are able to correctly judge corners to avoid crashing, but the stats seem to indicate the opposite. What that means to me that the "seat of the pants" approach to corners isn't the most clever.

Speaking for myself, when cornering on the backroads, I squander perhaps half of my attention on the surface. And I adjust speed to sight distance. If it's a sweeper with unlimited view, I will go faster, but I still pay attention to the surface.

Nick's "Pace" concept is fun, but it flies in the face of brain wiring. When an emergency suddenly pops into view, the "fight or flight" part of the brain will take charge and command action; and the action will most likely be whatever the person has been practicing. So, if your habit is to control speed only with the throttle, and you suddenly see a moose standing in the road, it's very likely you will roll off the throttle--which only applies braking to the rear tire.

So, "The Pace" is fun, and doesn't demand a lot of skill, but it doesn't set you up to avoid sudden unexpected happenings. There are twisty roads all over the country that are testimonials to the inability of riders to manage the situation.

Over the years I've also realized the importance of smooth throttle-to-brake transitions (as taught by Lee Parks) to enable me to quickly and smoothly adjust speed depending upon what pops into view. IOW I brake a LOT on the front while cornering.

My speed is determined by the view, and my survival quotient today, not by signs or formulas. If you do want a formula, your entry speed into a corner is whatever speed will allow you to sneak on the throttle through the rest of the curve.

pmdave

Dave,

Are you finding that you need different skill sets to ride the Spyder?

[jamesdunn]

+1

I'm highly interested in surface conditions as they'll dictate your ability to generate side loads in the corner.

When I'd been riding for 3 or 4 years, I dumped an R75/7 on an exit ramp in anti-freeze. That taught me pretty quickly to pay attention to the road surface. For me, the difficulty is that watching the road surface can lead to looking down, which doesn't help me set a proper point of aim on exit.

I constantly have to work on this, but am getting better at watching the surface, while also keeping my head up to chart a proper line and exit.

Anti freeze is very slippery and you're not the first to dump your bike due too the presence of the stuff! I too try to pay attention to the vagaries of the the road surface. Always a smart policy though not always followed.
JD

[pmdave]

Speed is an interesting discussion. But of course there's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than going fast around corners. There is an interesting report from Northen Ireland that includes the opinions of riders about training, experience, etc.. Here's a chart that depicts their opinion of "what is learned with experience"

Note that "cornering" isn't high on the list.

pmdave

[pmdave]

And, since someone asked about driving a Spyder (2F 1R trike) let's compare cornering on a Spyder to cornering on a bike.

First, there is almost no risk of falling down, so even a timid old codger like me can be confident that there won't be a sudden crash precipitated by a diesel oil spill, or gravel on the pavement, or horse poop, or whatever. What that really means is that I can pretty much ignore the surface and concentrate on traffic and driving.

I do hang off much more when driving a three wheeler through curves than when riding a bike. Hanging off helps reduce steering effort, and helps keep the inside wheel on the ground. That helps keep the stability computer from reducing power. Since the brakes help control roll, I may drag the brakes slightly in curves while sneaking on more throttle. Of course, this will drive a following biker to distraction, since the brake lights will be flashing on-off during the corner. But I also brake in corners when riding a two wheeler--whenever I don't like the "smell" of the situation. For instance, I've braked for quite a few trees in the ditch that looked like antlers.

But, whatever the machine I'm driving/riding, I limit my speed to sight distance. If I can't make a full stop within my sight distance, I'm hanging it out too far. It's not that there are more hazards located in turns, but that they are often hidden from view by the shape of the rocks and greenery. So, the hazards may seem to "pop into view" when I'm rounding a corner, but of course they were there all along. It makes me very nervous to see riders zipping around blind turns at speeds that I know are about twice too fast for stopping.

I'm not sure exactly how the Spyder ABS reacts with the Stability Control System and Steering System. But I have no fear of aggressive braking at any time. I believe the SCS gets wheel speed from the ABS pickups, but works in a different way. If the ABS determines a tire is losing traction, it releases brake pressure in pulses just like any ABS system. But if the SCS determines a wheel is getting light, it starts reducing engine power. The power steering system is a mystery. It's speed sensitive, but there is some other relationship to the SCS. Stability control is there to reduce the risks of a rollover, not to prevent rear wheel spin.

Fortunately, at my age I don't feel the need for speed (as much), so I can just motor along enjoying the scenery while I gradually figure out how the machine performs and which body part is causing the pain today. If you come up on me on the road, feel free to pass.

pmdave

BTW, I can't imagine trying to manage a two wheeler with the Rotax 990 motor, let alone anything more powerful. If you're thinking about buying one of those new S1000RRs, I hope you realize what it means to have a 193 HP engine in a 450 lb. bike. Controlling that machine on twisty public roads is going to be a big challenge.

[dancogan]

Ya know, there are a handful of people I just don't argue with about Proficient Motorcycling or More Proficient Motorcycling and pmdave is one of them.

:thumb +2

There are 2 people wouldn't argue with, and both names are above.

[BCKRIDER]

I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.

OK, I think it raises questions of "what goes where" for the moderators considering the request, and it is probably not simple. YOUR approval of the idea in principle, I believe is the first step.

If the idea is approved in principle, then I think the moderators could reach out to a couple dozen experienced posters for the appropriate, and inappropriate, topics and set the ground rules.

My original thread here generated more thoughtful replies than I would have thought possible. I have a few more topics I would like to raise for discussion under this area, and I bet a NEW FORUM would have even more topics raised - with some really good ideas we would never have thought of on our own.

[crazydrummerdude]

I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.

Here, here!

I think as our forum expands, it will more closely resemble advrider than we care to admit.

[BCKRIDER]

As one fairly new to the Forum, you can't imagine how gratifying it is to generate so many thoughtful replies to my OP in only a few days! I single out PGlaves and pmdave for special thanks, only because I've read their work in the ON and Dave's books have a special shelf in my bathroom for frequent review. (BTW, if you haven't met them, they are the greatest guys with tons of experience and seemingly no ego.) They would be the first to admit that they don't have the "last word" on cornering speed.

When it comes to "slow corners," there are clearly others posting here, Lawrence Grodsky's book "Stayin' Safe, and others who have decidedly different ideas about corner lines, how to brake in curves, etc.

I would like the discussion to go on. And in fact will add to it:

You have to know the road before you can trust the "suggested speed signs," and I'm not talking about gravel or cow poop. Hwy 6 from Vernon, B.C. to Nakusp has a number of straight sections but also many curves with speed signs. In almost all of them a speed 50% higher works for me, a fairly conservative rider, and 100% over is no sweat for a good rider, providing the gravel is gone. PROBLEM: there are two badly marked corners (not the slowest suggested speed either) where much over the limit and you will be in the ditch! When the cops bemoaned the motorcycle accident rate on this road in the local paper, I wrote a "letter to the editor" which suggested that a couple "slow to" signs might need to be changed to save accidents and even lives. You guessed right. Nothing has been done.

Again, thanks to all. AND PLEASE RESPOND TO THE PREVIOUS "NEW fORUM" POST.

[TexanRT]

Some months back we discussed opening a new forum for riding technique and safety issues -- maybe it's time to revisit that again. As the mods always say, if there's enough interest in a topic, they are open to adding a forum.

Here's one of the threads I started back then to discuss road surface conditions that was inspired by some reading I was doing at the time. :)

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32700&highlight=tire+edge+traps


Here's another thread we posted about starting a safety forum....

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32615&highlight=safety+forum

Here's another thread we started about advanced riding -- how to benefit from track days...

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=32623&highlight=track+day

I'm all for a safety, training, and techniques discussions. :thumb

[RTFlyer]

I believe it was pmdave that suggested posts around "proficient riding"or "safety issues" receive A NEW FORUM. I think the idea is great and I strongly urge everyone who has responded to my original post to VOICE YOUR APPROVAL FOR THIS IDEA IN A REPLY TO THIS POST.



Aye

[EXR911]

This has been a great discussion, and points out that a lot of us are interested in riding skills.

So, forum bigwigs, why don't we have a specific part of the forum dedicated to riding skills?

pmdave

I support that proposal for a riding skills section of the forum.

PT9766

[kbasa]

I support that proposal for a riding skills section of the forum.

PT9766
+1

It fit the "want to learn to ride their bike better" which 85% of our survey respondents identified as one of the reasons they belong to the MOA.

[RoboRider]

Speed is an interesting discussion. But of course there's a lot more to riding a motorcycle than going fast around corners. There is an interesting report from Northen Ireland that includes the opinions of riders about training, experience, etc.. Here's a chart that depicts their opinion of "what is learned with experience"

Note that "cornering" isn't high on the list.

pmdave

This is an excellent point. A "pilot" should never stop learning and be complacent. We were taught in "Cornerspeed" track class that we are pilots, in control, while "riders" are reacting to situations--strive to be a motorcycle Pilot. MSF is good to start. Police courses are good for safety. Reading books is excellent. And Track classes are INVALUABLE for fine tuning your riding at an advanced level. The advanced training pays off for the street. If you take "Cornerspeed" (or the ilk) and "Cornerspin" (or the ilk) and practice power sliding your rear tire and high side avoidance, and leaning into a corner enough to wear out a knee puck, your skills on the street increase concomitantly. No corner is too hot if you lean over enough to drag a peg. I'm not recommending this on the street, but I mean that I see guys drive off the road because they are scared to lean over all the way in an emergency. Better to low side (which you are unlikely to do) than to drive off the road into oncoming traffic.

Never stop learning, never stop practicing.

[GrafikFeat]

I don't consciously think about it at all; it all comes from a lifetime of experience in previous roads, my brain does the calculations on its own.
Yup. + me too...

As I ride the machine becomes part of me. Ya just know/feel it.

If I had to sum it up: "Within my capabilities."

[RoboRider]

I have that on the street, the programmed brain, and it is a great feeling when you are there. My problem is on the track. I don't have that on the track. I am constantly going into corners and my brain is saying "too hot", yet, it's not enough. I can't get to that programmed track brain since it is such a big deal to get there. You can't just get up and go for an hour of practice any time you want. And, that sucks!

[bubbagazoo]

Here's the simple yet definitive answer:

The first number on the curve sign tells you what gear to be in. The bike should be "up on the cam," meaning 4500-5000 RPM.

That works for most BMW transmission ratios but NOT the C model cruiser bikes. And you should check a little when you cross state lines because some road engineers see things a little differently.

But, you are on your own out there and it is your responsibility to make sure you have good sight lines and the surface is nice.

John

First, living in Edmonton, I must ask -- what are these twisties you talk about? :D Maybe I don't go to the right places out of town but I have never encountered anything that could be considered twisties around here.

When I have encountered twisties in my travels down to the US of A (surprisigly, Montana has lots), my rule of thumb is to ride OIO. I adjust my speed for what ever I feel comfortable with (sight lines, road conditions, load on the bike and speed advisory signage all play a part in this) and try to keep my RPMs around 3,000. That, on my CL, seems to be the sweet spot in terms of ideally controlable power. If I need more oomph, it's there and if I need to roll off, the bike responds quickly but not suddenly.

Because I don't ride through twisties very often, I find myself extremely conscious of my technique and talk myself through each step of the process. Multiple left-right-left-right combinations result in a rather long monologue. It works for me.

[108625]

(surprisigly, Montana has lots)

One more reason we love it here!:usa:ca

[Rad]

+1

It fit the "want to learn to ride their bike better" which 85% of our survey respondents identified as one of the reasons they belong to the MOA.

Well put. Great idea.

BTW, Dave...... Scott hooked me up:D

[Rob Nye]

I think a section on riding better would be a very good idea.

One challenge is not everything is an absolute and it could be tough to moderate.

IMO what works well on a /5 might not translate well to a S1000RR.

[GrafikFeat]

what works well on a /5 might not translate well to a S1000RR.

...and vice versa... From a "C" to a /5 is bizzaro world.
The /5 feels like a moped on steroids...

[rinty]

...Highway 6 from Vernon to Nakusp...BCKrider

Yes, it's very fast, and completely different from the Glory Road (31A) that intersects it at New Denver. You have a complete change of riding style, transitioning between the two.

The Glory Road has one of the trickiest corners I have ever seen: a decreasing radius right hander, followed by a short straight, and then a shallow left hander across a wooden decked bridge. But it's marked with a 40 km sign.

[Rad]

One challenge is not everything is an absolute and it could be tough to moderate.


Absolute? There is not much that is.:D

[jamesdunn]

I have perused this thread and though the responses are many and varied there are two themes which are repeated here with some frequency. One school holds instinct and experience will get the job done in the curves another school represents focusing on skills. Both are correct. But, there is a caveate. To improve, skills must be practiced. I know this to be true and have applied it in sports activities. Yeah I can just go out and ride and ride pretty well by not focusing on skill sets. ( Road surface and potential hazards should be paid attention to however.) But if I want to get better I must practice something that is of benefit. Otherwise I'll always get what I have always gotten! I think it best to practice one thing at a time. Does not mean the rest of it goes out the window it is still there just not in the forefront.

[GrafikFeat]

I would think one acquires skill through experience.
You can read all the safety/skill books you want.

With out application/experience it may as well be a comic book.

[KGT1200]

I would think one acquires skill through experience.
You can read all the safety/skill books you want.

With out application/experience it may as well be a comic book.

The Truth has been heard!:thumb

[bogthebasher]

Yes, it's very fast, and completely different from the Glory Road (31A) that intersects it at New Denver. You have a complete change of riding style, transitioning between the two.

The Glory Road has one of the trickiest corners I have ever seen: a decreasing radius right hander, followed by a short straight, and then a shallow left hander across a wooden decked bridge. But it's marked with a 40 km sign.

So THAT'S why I used the whole road last year! I really miss-judged it - fortunately my 'safety margin' was just enough! It is pretty apparent that generally roads in a given area/state/province have similar rating for curves but a safety margin is needed when a curve is incorrectly assessed (by the engineer who built it or the rider approaching it).

Being a Canuck; an added reason to take corners in the USA with a grain of salt is I find that the mental energy used by constantly calculating the mph to km/hr AND looking at the curve, road entry/exit etc. etc. is actually quite high and sometimes wish BMW would have an on-the-fly method of switching from metric to standard to avoid all the mental gymnastics.

[jforgo]

When I used to use my speedometer in cornering, I found some roads where doubling the advisory speed could be fairly easily done. There were others where the same practice would put you in the ravine.

At some point I seem to have decided that the speedometer, and gauging and guessing the conservatism of the advisory signmakers, were a useless distraction from reading the road. Where I live, the roads have lots of potential hazards:

Sand from snow abatement, never swept up.
Gravel fallen from trucks during construction season.
Fresh sloppy construction
Large critters; deer, cattle, mustangs (the 4 legged kind)
Washed off mud/dirt from thundershowers.
Idiots in cages, of course
Squirrely crotch rocket pilots who only ride 6 months of the year.
Black ice in shady corners early spring and late fall - especially early or late in the day.
Cracks and buckling from repeated freeze/thaw cycles.
Spotty drenched sections from scattered heavy thundershowers.
Gusty crosswinds.
Driveways driveways driveways.

I don't consider the condition of a road where I am at now, is any predictor of how it will be 3 miles down the line. I focus entirely on what I can see ahead, and keeping the engine in a gear appropriate for my roadspeed, visibility, and the rate of climb/descent. I do like to ride smoothly, with minimal brake use. The roads here are very far removed from track conditions. What is my speed going into a corner? Couldn't tell you.

I suppose I ride elementally; bike sound and vibration; tire and suspension feedback; intently observing road; noting temperature, wind, and sunlight conditions; my own mood, etc. Where I can see, and feel, ahead, I have some extra fun. Where I cannot, I dial it back, knowing that doing so will let me continue to ride and have fun for a very long time.

[GrafikFeat]

When I used to use my speedometer in cornering, I found some roads where doubling the advisory speed could be fairly easily done.

The only time I look down at my speedo is when I see a cop following me or 'gunning' me from the side of the road.
Useless information when ya get down to it.
Me knowing how fast I'm going won't allow me to take or lose a corner.

Experience will.

[BCKRIDER]

What I SHOULD have said is that the road east of Cherryville to the Needles ferry contains the curves with a a couple deceptively marked. The road from the Needles ferry to Nakusp can indeed be ridden very fast with almost no concern for speed enforcement - except that imposed by your concern for deer and the occasional bear. In summer 2008, mid-day, a friend riding behind me there with his wife on pillion got to test his ABS on dry pavement when a deer darted out of the bushes. No accident.

Both the west and east Kootenays of British Columbia have many great motorcycling roads and some great scenery. My advice is to enjoy them - but when selecting your speed, realize that deer can always appear. (And yes, this is not news and probably in the wrong thread.)

[BCKRIDER]

My thanks to "TexanRT" for his post #67. Clearly he had the same thought pmdave did (see #45) which I echoed - only he had it a year ago! Click on the links TexanRT so thoughtfully provided in #67 and you will find more ideas about the topic I recently raised.

Below is a quote dated Jan. 21, 2009 from "username." It certainly seems to infer that the poster is a moderator.

"You can talk about safety right now. Start a thread that you want to see discussion on. You can do this in the "Campfire." We watch the forums closely, and prefer to be demand driven when creating new subforums. This keeps the clutter and scrolling on the front page to a minimum and improves the user interface. If we see a lot of actual discussion on safety issues (as opposed to people talking about wanting to talk about it), the moderation team will determine how and when to carve out a specific home for those discussions.

Go for it!"

My suggestion for the moderators is that few users go back than more than two months. That's why I missed all this stuff started by TexanRT a year ago. I'm sure it is still there but VERY few people will ever see it!

I hope the moderators will give this considerable thought. Is there a way of not only creating a new forum heading but also resurrecting some of the threads buried deep in "Campfire" which are in no way dated, as say discussions about Tiger Woods are certain to be?

I think all of us would really appreciate a response from the moderators. If we are missing something, could you please let us know?

[EXR911]

My thanks to "TexanRT" for his post #67. Clearly he had the same thought pmdave did (see #45) which I echoed - only he had it a year ago! Click on the links TexanRT so thoughtfully provided in #67 and you will find more ideas about the topic I recently raised.

Below is a quote dated Jan. 21, 2009 from "username." It certainly seems to infer that the poster is a moderator.

"You can talk about safety right now. Start a thread that you want to see discussion on. You can do this in the "Campfire." We watch the forums closely, and prefer to be demand driven when creating new subforums. This keeps the clutter and scrolling on the front page to a minimum and improves the user interface. If we see a lot of actual discussion on safety issues (as opposed to people talking about wanting to talk about it), the moderation team will determine how and when to carve out a specific home for those discussions.

Go for it!"

My suggestion for the moderators is that few users go back than more than two months. That's why I missed all this stuff started by TexanRT a year ago. I'm sure it is still there but VERY few people will ever see it!

I hope the moderators will give this considerable thought. Is there a way of not only creating a new forum heading but also resurrecting some of the threads buried deep in "Campfire" which are in no way dated, as say discussions about Tiger Woods are certain to be?

I think all of us would really appreciate a response from the moderators. If we are missing something, could you please let us know?

I have formally requested BMWMOA establish a new sub-forum on Riding Skills in a post in Online Central. All in favor please post there in support of the request.

PT9766

[RoboRider]

The only time I look down at my speedo is when I see a cop following me or 'gunning' me from the side of the road.
Useless information when ya get down to it.
Me knowing how fast I'm going won't allow me to take or lose a corner.

Experience will.

Somewhere I read an article that a high percentage of riders look at there speedo each time they shift, thus needlessly take their eyes off the road for no reason. I monitored myself and found I did this sometimes on downshifts, but not often. Anyway, a bit off topic but an interesting bad habit to check yourself on and correct.

[jamesdunn]

I would think one acquires skill through experience.
You can read all the safety/skill books you want.

With out application/experience it may as well be a comic book.
I was a ski racer and it involves many of the same physics as motorcycle riding or racing. When I raced I raced, when I practiced I focused on skills. The practice made me a capable racer. Don't recall reading too many books ; I did have quite a lot of coaching and became a coach and teacher myself. The experience I had from practice was how I was able to "turn it on" when race day arrived.

[GrafikFeat]

I was a ski racer and it involves many of the same physics as motorcycle riding or racing. When I raced I raced, when I practiced I focused on skills. The practice made me a capable racer. Don't recall reading too many books ; I did have quite a lot of coaching and became a coach and teacher myself. The experience I had from practice was how I was able to "turn it on" when race day arrived.

Yes. I agree.
Theory/Practice applied equals experience.
I constantly practice my braking... Especially on the side car rig.
What I'm implying is while reading a book on safety is good, it is but one source of info.
Applying what you have read is essential.

:bow I use Mr. Hough's sidecar book w/ lesson plans to practice certain maneuvers.

When I bought this hack I never even sat on a sidecar rig.
I took the safety course here in Seattle.
Best thing I ever did to prepare myself for the road(s) ahead.
Pun intended. :D

[E_Page]

This is a serious question: "how Do You determine a fun but safe appropriate entry speed for the curves on those twisty two lane back roads?" You know the ones: there is a curve sign, a "suggested" speed, and the almost certain knowledge that there is no LEO waiting around the bend.

Sure, it depends upon conditions. So here are the hypothetical conditions for your response: sunny 70 degree day; pavement dry; pavement good with no potholes and no loose gravel on the road in first three miles - though the shoulder is gravel; slight cambre in both directions from the center line; traffic in both directions very light; almost all curves are "blind" because of rock formations or trees.

Do you check your speedometer? If so, by what percentage do you increase your entry speed over the suggested one? Do you use the suggested speed as an indication of what gear you should use? Do you cover your front brake in curves? Do you believe you could stop within your sight distance? Where do you look approaching and making the turn? (Feel free to add advice or tactics which have served you well.)

Hey, there are two months or more of winter ahead of me. Time to think about riding. Hope this OP rouses some discussion and gets us all thinking about how to ride those twisties we all love in a fashion which brings us home smiling and safe.

The road to my house is just as you describe, except that there are a few potholes (I know just where they are), and I can regularly expect hazards such as loose gravel, fallen branches, or any of a wide variety of wildlife.

When I first started riding this road, I would often check my speedometer out of curiosity, but found that doing so tended to distract me from keeping a good track and optimal speed through the turns. I very rarely look at the speedometer in the curves anymore. I just take them by feel.

I've also found that I can't plan to gauge my speed according to the yellow advisory signs (Curve Ahead - 25 MPH) because, at least on roads that were built prior to design speed standards, the folks that they send out to post them seem to have widely varying ideas of what is a safe speed. I've been through curves that were posted 15, and I could safely take them at 45 in my pickup, and I've been through others posted 35 that I wouldn't want to do more than 20 in or on any vehicle.

So, in short, I couldn't even give you a reliable guideline. It's all about finding the speed you're comfortable with. Start conservatively. It's easier and safer to adjust your spped up to a comfortable level than it is to adjust down from a speed that you can't control.

[KGT1200]

I was a ski racer and it involves many of the same physics as motorcycle riding or racing. When I raced I raced, when I practiced I focused on skills. The practice made me a capable racer. Don't recall reading too many books ; I did have quite a lot of coaching and became a coach and teacher myself. The experience I had from practice was how I was able to "turn it on" when race day arrived.

I got to thinking about Mr. Dunn's post in this thread, comparing skiing and riding a bike in the twisties being the same; comparing the two does bring out some specifics that once visualized, could assist someone learning to carve twisties on asphalt.

Skiers, like bikers come in unlimited varieties, but when it comes to coming down a narrow trail, where big sweepers are not possible, two ways to do it;

Very cautious, sliding the rear of the ski around each turn, allowing the inertia of the hill to slow you every turn. After each turn is executed, the ski tips end up sideways, and almost pointing uphill! This type of beginner sking is unstable, unpredictable due to the w-i-d-e turn causing an about face on each turn.

The experienced skier will follow the proper, faster and infinitely more fun way to ski the twisties; keep the tips pointed down the slope, and tilt the edge of the ski horizontally into the hill on each turn, like your skis are a sharp knife, cutting your turn with the precision of a surgeon into the flesh. The faster and steeper the hill, the deeper you stick the blade in the snow, allowing you to control a series of small turns, which the inertia pushes you into each turn. Put aside the poles for a minute, because I don't know how they would factor into this comparison, and we all knows the importance of a pole plant. right?

I followed a guy one time on what I assume was a new ride (er) and watched him turn away from the fall line of the road on each turn, continually set a line to turn (carve) abort, go straight increase speed by inertia, tap the brakes and find another line, again turning his whole body (and bike) sideways to the fall line; it was obvious he was struggling to keep this Harley looking Yamaha out of trouble at that speed, so I backed off to give him the ability to slow down, hope he did.

Each turn he made was not looking into the fall, was not anticipating the next turn where he wanted to go, checking his heavy hand on the throttle with his brakes (danger here, man) and appeared to be looking away from the turn he was executing.

He very well may have been watching the speed versus feeling the inertia+ speed, and instinctively knowing how much throttle produced a controllable fall (inertia).His bike spent more time sideways in the road versus pointing the nose like the ski tips) down the road where he wanted to go.

The fun comes in finding the very limit of controllable speed, coming right up to that limit, then find ways to involve a third dimension/ the lean where the speed can be increased even further!

That's what separates the men from the boys, IMHO, that is. And I announce here that there are many, many who have a better handle on this "Lean" dimension in carving up the twisties; I'm certainly not afraid of the twisties being born a raised in the foothills of Colorado, but I do know and respect my limits, and more importantly, the limit of the road...dirt, branches, squirrel guts, pot holes keep me from truly even approaching "the edge" of speed by increasing the lean past a certain point. I am not risking that edge as I once did many years ago. No speedo needed, just years of letting my brain go on auto pilot and make the decision before I enter each turn as to how much inertia I throttle up into each turn.

I know many feel that to ride a fine engineered machine like a BMW and not seek that limit/that edge is sacrilegious to BMW, but to me? I've tumbled off my mount a time or two in my lifetime by pushig the limits, and on each turn, have made a choice to ride with the boys, with a degree of safety. I am one of the boys. Let the Men fly by; to hell with the squirrels!:D

[angysdad]

I use my Canada/USA magical conversion kit!
If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
It seems to work for me.

[BCKRIDER]

I use my Canada/USA magical conversion kit!
If the curve sign suggests 50km/h, I figure I'm good for 50mph.
It seems to work for me.

You seem to have missed posts by myself and others. In many, maybe most, corners 50 mph (80 kmp) is indeed safe. BUT NOT ALL. There are bad curve signs where that speed will put you in the ditch if not off a cliff or else in the oncoming lane, if it is a right curve.

I believe it is exactly this sort of response which moderators fear when considering setting up a new "riding safely" forum. I think it is exactly the sort of response I'm giving you that should allay their fears that mis-information will not go long unchallenged.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. Come back to Canada on your bike and enjoy our great country. But realize that those suggested speeds in curves, as translated to safe bike speed, can vary on the same road.

[rinty]

...[ski racing] involves many of the same physics as motorcycling...jamesdunn

+1.

I think it's that "three dimensional" aspect, as Kbasa puts it.

[GrafikFeat]

Ever see anyone texting while skiing?

[Rad]

I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel":D
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/763222811_hPNWQ-S.jpg

The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.

[GrafikFeat]

I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel"

Then there are times I turn around and ride elsewhere.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_popper/3733798794/" title="Riding on the Moon. by GrafikFeat, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/3733798794_84ea0d3c62.jpg" width="500" height="335" alt="Riding on the Moon." /></a>

On the two wheeler anyway...

[Rad]

Then there are times I turn around and ride elsewhere.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim_popper/3733798794/" title="Riding on the Moon. by GrafikFeat, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/3733798794_84ea0d3c62.jpg" width="500" height="335" alt="Riding on the Moon." /></a>

On the two wheeler anyway...

No kidding

One of the most imporaant lessons I learned ocean kayaking, I apply to all my activities, and tell my MSF students, is knowing when to "stay on the beach" .:thumb

I have turned around, or stopped, many a time, both on and off road, due to conditions that I felt were beyond me at that moment.

[pmdave]

Perhaps the most important lesson in all of this is that road signs aren't very reliable at telling you how to ride. If you want to survive the ride, you must maintain your awareness of what the road and other users are doing, and make appropriate adjustments.

I'll have to dig out that photo of a curve sign, where the upper bolt on the sign either dropped off, or was "encouraged" to drop off, and the sign swiveled down so it is pointing in the opposite direction.

pmdave

[GrafikFeat]

Relying on anything other than yourself for safety is just plain silly.

:D

[BCKRIDER]

I tend to not let a road sign influence me regarding speed selection unless the sign is something out of the ordinary, like that cute little orange diamond shaped one on a temporary road side barricade that states "loose gravel":D
http://rad.smugmug.com/photos/763222811_hPNWQ-S.jpg

The speed I carry into a curve depends on a lot of things, most importantly for me, how "on" I am that day, or at that part of the day. There are times where I'm fluid and fast and times I'm out of sync with the bike and I back off. There is only a couple MPH difference between those two experiences, but that is all it takes to move out of your comfort zone.

Well said! I used to ride quite a bit with a guy who was about equal to me on twisty roads. We always left several seconds between the bikes, took turns leading, and neither usually felt either pushed or held back.

One day in Washington state (great day, great road) my friend was leading, riding below the speed limit and I wanted to GO. He slowed more and waved me past to have my fun. I pulled over where the road forked and 5 minutes later he showed up.

"What happened?" "My mind was on other things and decided to pull over until I could get it back on riding." I thought that was one of the wisest things any rider has ever said to me.

None of us are always "on our game." Since then I have occasionally pulled over but even more often slowed down until I could again focus on the task at hand.

[rinty]

...the road east of Cherryville...contains the curves, which are deceptively marked...BCKRIDER

Yes, that is a challenging section.

...a deer darted out of the bushes...there...

I had a near collision with one in the same area; it just jumped out of the bushes in front of me. I've been told that the area between Monashee Pass and Cherryville is full of deer.

I really misjudged it...Bogthebasher

I've blown a number of corners, on both highways, and I've been very lucky.

[angysdad]

Doug,

I did not take your comments as any sort of attack.
I should have elaborated. For ME, as a general mesure of the speed that I can handle in the curve, I found posted km/h=mph. This is just a rule of thumb and not any sort of universal truth. It has served me well through 31 active seasons of riding. I rarely base my speed (strait or curve) on the posted limit. I use any posted limit as a suggestion and ride in my comfort zone. I use my judgement , my realistic evaluation of my own skills as well as road conditions to adjust speed. I also don't get ovely hung-up on what the speedometer says.
I appreciate your concerns for others safety.
As for your invitation to'Come back to Canada on your bike and and enjoy our great country', I agree that Canada is a great country. There is no need to 'come back', since last time I checked, Québec was still part of Canada!!! :D:ca
speed safely
Denis

[BCKRIDER]

There is no need to 'come back', since last time I checked, Québec was still part of Canada!!! :D:ca
speed safely
Denis[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Denis! Forgot to check where you are from, which is really pretty dumb since my bike also reads in miles per hour!

[angysdad]

My last two bikes came from the states, so are in mph. I run a K100 as well. Mines an '85 EML sidecar rig.
Obey the laws of physics,
Denis

[TexanRT]

The Feb 2010 issue of MCN includes an interesting Proficient Motorcycling column titled "Riding Fast." It's an interesting column and it touched on some of what was discussed here. It wasn't so much about how to ride fast as it was about cautioning riders against fast riding in a hazardous street environment or riding above their ability. It went on to offer some suggestions (track days, track schools) for places where fast riding can be done in a safer environment.

The article also included a link to the Australian Motor Accident Commission where you can find a link to the "No Place to Race" public service warning regarding street racing.

http://www.mac.sa.gov.au/