Frequency of changing FD oil

[afmeyer]

What is the latest recommedation on the frequecny of changing the FD oil? I know the volume is reduced to 180 ml.
2008 R12RT.

[AKBeemer]

I believe it to be at the 600 mile service and then at the 12K, 24k, etc.

[racer7]

Yes and for convenience, rather than hook this to, for example, a work set based around doing the valves and oil change, I'd suggest simply matching it to tire changes at whatever mileage is close to 12/24 etc. While the wheel is already off, it is simple to change the FD lube and lube the shaft splines at the same time.

I happen to live very close to a good shop so I remove my wheel, leave it at the shop to pop on a new tire, do the fluid and grease, then pick up and reinstall the wheel.

[afmeyer]

Thanks.
On my bike, an '08, I never really expose the splines since I don't have to drop down the FD. However, if I just pull out the rubber weather guard covering the joint, will that provide enough access to get lube on the splines or is that just wishful thinking and the joint has to be taken completely apart? What kind of lube do you use on the splines that is readily avaiable?

[racer7]

A lot of us use the Honda Moly 60 on the splines but I'm sure the BMW dealers have something to sell too. (Dealer is 130 miles from me so I don't see them much!)

There is no practical way to lube splines except to drop the FD. Do remember all grease lubes wear out/off whether exposed or not. Also, it is very simple to drop the FD so you shouldn't be concerned- its about on the same level as pulling the wheel to easily change the FD fluid on the 08. Some don't see the removal of the requirement to drop the FD to do a fluid change on 08s or later as much of a service improvement - its biggest advantage is to the dealer to facilitate the 600 mile fluid change when no spline lube is called for.

I prefer a large syringe for FD fluid fills but many like a squeeze bottle. The latter can be pre calibrated. I would not suggest simply removing the FD fluid and adding back a like volume without measuring carefully - I pulled close to 265 ml out of mine the first time I drained it so putting like volume back would have been an overfill.

Check the service threads in this forum, consider the factory CD, and JVBs DVDs and website, and other BMW sites. These bikes are really very easy to service if you have good basic skills, reasonable prior experience and avoid careless screwups by being methodical in your work. You will probably have to add some torx tools to your set so pay attention to the tool lists called out in instructions before you start anything.

[deilenberger]

I'll just comment - that when I changed mine at 24k miles (BMW had just come out with the new recommended 12K change interval, and I'd already planned on doing it at 24k) - the oil that came out looked just as good as what I was putting in. My drive had gotten the 600 mile change with BMW 75W-90 Synthetic. I drained the old oil into a brand new aluminum baking pan - and it looked perfectly clear (red color - which is how it comes) with no contamination or discoloration noted.

I would be comfortable with 24k changes - but that's me. I suspect the 12k change interval was picked to coincide with Inspection services, not based on anything more substantial than that... but that's my WAG. YMMV - and changing it too frequently won't hurt the rear drive.

[racer7]

Yes- if a good drain is done so little old fluid is left not much visible change happens quickly (after the first change- the 600 mile stuff is obviously discolored possibly from stuff used in assemby or parts storage prior to assembly). So 24K change interval doesn't sound unreasonable though its very little work and cheap to do. The FD on a RT does not get hot enough to do much damage to lube life (unlike my track machinery that beats hell out of rear end lubes and should probably have a cooler on its diff). Cooked FD fluids develop a very strong sulfur smell with accompanying color shift on most lubes- once you've changed an abused one its a permanent memory.

[JimVonBaden1]

Of the 100 or so FD oil changes I have done nearly all came out clean oil, whether from 20K+ miles, or 6K miles. That said, I would prefer 12K only because it does give an indication of potential issues.

As for the spline lube, I have seen 6K mile bikes with perfectly dry splines, and 24K mile bikes with the whole FD input shaft and surrounding parts very rusty (well used GS). I would suggest, even on the newer models with the 6:00 drain, that you lube the splines every 24K minimum, and more often if you ride in a lot of rain, or bad weather.

Jim :brow

[RoboRider]

I'm like Racer. I change my own tires and I get about 6,000 miles out of a set of Z6s. With the wheel off, the final drive oil change and spline lube is a piece of cake, so I do it. Now, I admit that 6000 miles is more than needed, but it's so cheap and easy to do when you have the wheels off anyway, so I do it.

I bought some Carquest CRC brake grease (for brake parts). It says it has a high moly/PTFE/graphite content, and it's very sticky. Like others, I find the Honda Moly gets dry quickly. I'd be interested in what my fellow wrenchers think of this grease. I was considering mixing it 50/50 with the Honda grease, or perhaps as is.

http://www.autobarn.net/crcbrcasygr.html

And yes, Jim VonBaden's maintenance CD is the best $25 you'll ever spend. Even if you don't work on the bike, just KNOWING what is done to your bike is worth the cost. Every BMW owner should have it.

[Semper_Fi]

Thanks.
On my bike, an '08, I never really expose the splines since I don't have to drop down the FD. However, if I just pull out the rubber weather guard covering the joint, will that provide enough access to get lube on the splines or is that just wishful thinking and the joint has to be taken completely apart? What kind of lube do you use on the splines that is readily avaiable?


You have to drop the drive down to lube the splines.

It is not that difficult, I like others use Honda Moly Lube.

[racer7]

The first part of this is for Robo on his choice of spline lube.

First the disclaimer. I've wrenched for fun and sometimes for $ for about 45 yrs but am a Ph.D. scientist for a living though not a lube specialist. My wrenching includes everything from boats to bikes and brake systems and their design are one of my personal amusements - the performance of my track machinery and my personal safety depend on them so no one touches that part of my vehicles except me. (A letover from when I borrowd my mother's Ford in the days before dual master cylinders and had a brake failure going into a hairpin at 75 mph because the bozo mechanic who serviced them the prior day had installed a rear pistion seal incorrectly. My driving skill kept me safe- my mother would have crashed for sure)

The brake lube you've noted is different from the Honda 60 but I would expect it to work just fine anyway for splines. The splines can be fairly heavily loaded- hence the need for moly. And the PTFE won't hurt anything. PTFE can break down in extreme high temp and isn't an ideal hi pressure lube for metal by itself though spline lubes won't see hi temp so much of that is irrelevant. Brake lubes are generally designed to allow pads to slide freely on caliper faces on the loaded edge of the pad. Hence they are both hi temp and water resistant by design as well as moderately load capable. (Brake pad backers get to the same temp as the rotor and pad face, a fact I've confirmed many times by temp measurements on brake systems in track use). All of those properties should serve well when used on the splines. If I had any, I'd use it interchangeably with the Honda stuff with no worries. What I wouldn't use is greases lacking pressure additives or that are too water soluble.

A clear advantage to doing spline lubes as has been noted by JVB et al is the fact that inspections performed at simple services are one of the very best ways to prevent catastrophic or inconvenient breakdowns by providing early warning. Take note of his comments on rust and lack of lube. Your eyeballs are the very best tool in your set! I find that in my professional life I often have to remind young scientists to engage their eyeballs- some get so focussed on data spooling off a computerized lab instrument that they miss what is literally right in front of their face.

[RoboRider]

I do my own service for similar reasons, not to mention I like doing that kind of stuff. I ride track too, and I don't want to trust someone elses wrenching.

I have the Honda Moly and I've noted it seems to go dry with time. I know some use it to mix their own recipe. The brake grease has Moly and it is very sticky and I think it will hold up better. But again, I might experiment with some mixing of my own.

Spline lube should be done, and anyone who is capable of changing the final drive fluid is more than capable of lubing the splines.

[deilenberger]

One caution on mixing greases - the base greases must be compatible. People have experienced problems with mixed greases where the combination was worse than either grease alone (lowered temperature resistance so the grease liquified and ran off the splines.)

One that has worked for Paul Glaves is a mixture of Worth 3000 grease (a very sticky high-temperature grease) and the Moly-60.

Personally - I still use the Moly-60 (and I believe I was one of the pioneers with it back when a bunch of us on the IBMWR email list were researching spline greases), and have never had a problem. I have seen it still in place on K bike clutch splines after 40k miles, and on K bike rear-driveshaft-splines after 15k miles. I suspect people who had it wash out of the splines may have had more water exposure than the bikes I saw.

[Greenwald]

Yes- if a good drain is done so little old fluid is left not much visible change happens quickly (after the first change- the 600 mile stuff is obviously discolored possibly from stuff used in assemby or parts storage prior to assembly). So 24K change interval doesn't sound unreasonable though its very little work and cheap to do. The FD on a RT does not get hot enough to do much damage to lube life (unlike my track machinery that beats hell out of rear end lubes and should probably have a cooler on its diff). Cooked FD fluids develop a very strong sulfur smell with accompanying color shift on most lubes- once you've changed an abused one its a permanent memory.

Just an anecdotal comment about "The FD on a RT does not get hot enough to do much damage to lube life...."

I made a casual statement once to my BMW Master Tech about those decorative discs that you can fit over the opening in the rear wheel of many Beemers.

He just shook his head, and replied that the reason BMW has an 'open hub' is:

a. Weight Savings

b. Cooling! Turbulent air wafting thru the hub helps keep FD lube temp down.

FWIW, makes sense to me not to block that tunnel.

[andrewsi]

Where do y'all get your Moly 60 from? Local sources? Mail order? I'll be coming due for the 12k fairly soon and will be doing my first self-FD service.

[Motorwerk]

Where do y'all get your Moly 60 from? Local sources? Mail order? I'll be coming due for the 12k fairly soon and will be doing my first self-FD service.

Honda makes one that can be found at Honda motorcycle dealers.

[cjack]

Honda makes one that can be found at Honda motorcycle dealers.

Car dealers can order it for you too. Comes in six packs though.

[henzilla]

Honda makes one that can be found at Honda motorcycle dealers.

One would think ..

Two of our local Honda dealers have none on the shelf, looked at me strangely...but will order it. When asked what they use...he pointed to a large tube of Moly paste for a standard grease gun from maybe SeaDoo. Made me laugh at both places.

RubberChicken racing has it... ( I have no connections ,just a source)

http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com/moly.html

[47512]

See your local friendly Honda dealer, car or motorcycle.
PN#08734-0001
Honda code#2963866

Ken G.

[MLS2GO]

Had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for it.

[RoboRider]

You'll find plenty of good high Moly content greases at a good automotive store. All as good or better than the Moly 60.

[PGlaves]

You'll find plenty of good high Moly content greases at a good automotive store. All as good or better than the Moly 60.

Be careful. In order to be called a "moly grease" by NLGI standards, a grease must contain at least 3% moly. Most off the shelf moly greases contain 3% to 5% moly by volume. A "moly paste" by definition contains at least 50% moly by volume. Honda Moly 60 (as may be inferred from its name) contains 60% moly by volume.

Some auto parts stores do sell high moly content pastes or greases but it isn't the Sta-Lube or other common brands found out on the shelves.

[RoboRider]

Not a surprise that Paul adds some good information I did not know. PASTE, yes, that's a key I see now. I think that a lot of the products I saw on the shelf were the low content greases. But one was LocTite 65 paste, which was 65% Moly. So I modify my statement to be, "Your QUALITY auto store MAY have some Moly PASTES that are AS GOOD as the Honda Moly 60."!!!

I did not know the difference between paste and grease, so thanks Paul.

Also, I read that Moly bonds to metal surfaces, continuing to lubricate even in the 'dry' state. So, Moly 60, although it appears to dry out, maybe is still doing its job.

Jeeze, can we change to an 'easy' topic now like oil or tires! :banghead

[thundley]

Is this the stuff you guys are talking about (Loctite 65 Moly Paste)?

http://tinyurl.com/yhc4dnk

[RoboRider]

That looks like what I saw. The PDF file says it can be used to lubricate splines.

[JimVonBaden1]

Is this the stuff you guys are talking about (Loctite 65 Moly Paste)?

http://tinyurl.com/yhc4dnk

I've used that as well. Talk about thick and pasty!:)

Jim :brow

[JStrube]

What exactly does the manual specify?

Would Mobil 1 grease work? Just looking at the canister, it does not specify MOLY in it, but it does say for all bearings, splines, U joints, etc. It gave a temp range of something to 350 degrees (I put the can down to come to the computer...)

Just wondering if there was a specific moly requirement, or such.

[RoboRider]

I'm no expert, but my continued understanding of Moly is that it works it's way into the gears and coats the metal, making it slippery. One site said that Moly makes the metal shiny like a mirror and slippery. Grease may work itself out of the splines, but Moly binds molecularly and continues to work.

[bikerfish1100]

What exactly does the manual specify?

Would Mobil 1 grease work? Just looking at the canister, it does not specify MOLY in it, but it does say for all bearings, splines, U joints, etc. It gave a temp range of something to 350 degrees (I put the can down to come to the computer...)

Just wondering if there was a specific moly requirement, or such.

My oilhead Clymer's calls for Anti-Seize, which has been shown to be thoroughly inappropriate for this application.
In this instance, i would trust the collected wisdom based on direct experience over a manual's recommendation.