Open call for web site content suggestions

[GregFeeler]

With the winter "work season" now upon us, the webteam is working on plans for upgrades and enhancements. One of the first changes is to split the BMW MOA web site into Member and Guest sections. Access to the Member section will be though a login validated against our membership database. This is going to allow us to put things on the web site we've not considered before. Naturally, we have a list of ideas, but the best idea is often the one you haven't heard yet. Plus, there's a need to prioritize. As acting Content Manager, I'd like to get member suggestions and comments to add to the mix we have now.

To set the stage, we will be doing a lot more integration between the Owners News and the web site. You will see teaser material on the web pointing to the next ON issue, and you'll see articles published in the ON to the web. Magazines are "push" while the web is "pull". Each has it's advantages and limitations, and we since we have both media, are going to use them to compliment each other. That also means at some point the Flea Market will have an on-line version.

Said another way, the ON and the web site are going to live together. Television did not kill radio, and the web hasn't and won't ever kill magazines. So please take that into consideration in your comments. Also, please consider that as best as we can tell less than 10% of our total membership is currently registered on the forums. That's going to grow - but the very fact you are here makes you somewhat atypical and we're looking for ideas that will appeal to a broad group. That might mean one idea "everyone" will like, but it could also mean seveal ideas, each of which has a smaller audience but together add up.

That's the into. I started this as a new thread to (hopefully) stay better focused. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.

[username]

a searchable archive of all the old ON mags. useful for new members like myself, that don't have a room full of old magazines, and old members, like i will be someday, that don't *want* a room full of magazines.

i realize that there is also a revenue opportunity here too, and the BMWCCA realized this. they had all the old roundels (name of their mag) put out on a six CD set, and you could buy it for ~$100. they were in PDF format, and it was indexed. this obviously costs money, and the plan is that you make it back on the sales. i had older cars, so it rocked for me to get tech tips on old e30s and e28s. folks here with older bikes would benefit similarly.

so free on the website is my request, but i wouldnt mind if the club chose to make money. :D

thanks for volunteering, and soliciting suggestions. i salute your effort and dedication.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by username
a searchable archive of all the old ON mags. useful for new members like myself, that don't have a room full of old magazines, and old members, like i will be someday, that don't *want* a room full of magazines.

[snip, snip]

so free on the website is my request, but i wouldnt mind if the club chose to make money. :D

thanks for volunteering, and soliciting suggestions. i salute your effort and dedication.

Good idea, and one that's on the list. However, this will only be possible with new issues of the ON. In the "old days" the agreement with most authors was for one-time print-only publication. So they - not we - hold the rights to publish. That limits web material and also cancels the idea of a CD - as cool as that would be. :cry

That's being addressed on a go-foward basis. Pesonally, I'd love to see a library of tech articles that could be printed and used in the garage as needed.

[BradfordBenn]

It would be nice if there was a calendar of events online. In addition to listing the "Heard on the Road" and "When and Where" Section of the ON it could also include Monthly Club Meetings, and other events such as Saturday Rides or Charity Rides.

Also it would be nice if it was a tabular format, not a list as it currently sits, but rather looked like a calendar so that if one wanted to print it out and put it on their wall, they could.

:idea The Forum has a calendar feature that could be used for this task, but it might be "easier" for non web saavy people if it was more directly accessible, so navigation to the link http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/calendar.php?s= rather than a link to the Forum.

Make sense?

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Perhaps a classified section??? I sold quite a bit of stuff online the last few weeks on other boards.
I think it will benefit a lot of people and perhaps attract more users than the few we have now.
Just 0.02 cts:coffee

[kbasa]

Originally posted by rider1150RT
Perhaps a classified section??? I sold quite a bit of stuff online the last few weeks on other boards.
I think it will benefit a lot of people and perhaps attract more users than the few we have now.
Just 0.02 cts:coffee

We're working on splitting the site into member and nonmember areas. Having a validation table for the membership number will allow us to verify that folks that have memberships on the forum are actually MOA members.

Once that happens, we can lock down the forum so that non members can only see a couple of the forums. Other forums will not be visible or will be visible, but posts will not be shown.

At that point, we can begin to look at classifieds. This is a matter of some debate in the organization, but I see it as a big leap forward for the members.

[MarkF]

A searchable archive of Trip reports and tech articles from ON. Perhaps some of the past authors can be contacted for permission.

The classifieds are not a big deal because it would just duplicate the IBMWR Marketplace. Plus any ads put in the ON would be sold on the Website before they were ever published.

Hosting photos for members for public viewing would be good. You could have something like 1 or 2 photos remain while the rest auto erase after a few months. That would limit the space required and entice members to post new pics often.

Redesign of the local rally page to allow searches based on date range or miles from a zip code would be neat but not neccessary.

MarkF

[Usedtopilot]

Being a new rider (and looking for like-minded individuals with whom to ride), I love to read the Ride Reports ... they are amazing..... (at least I can live vicariously for the time being), and local rides accessible to me. Thanks for being open to someone who (right now) doesn't have a BMW but longs for one.......

[SNC1923]

Although I enjoy most of the features of the MOA Forums, I second the nomination for "Ride Reports." What I want to be doing is riding; when I can't ride, I like to read about riding.

I particularly like those ride reports with photos.

I know photos take up space and cost money, so that needs to be looked at. Perhaps a standardized template could be set up (limit of 12 photos) or links to sites like ofoto.com etc. might be a good idea.

Tom Moran

[riderR1150GSAdv]

To Kbasa
Please don't shoot me :) , but why would a classifieds section depend on member verification??:dunno
Other sites don't have that and Paypal is pretty safe as to security for both seller and buyer. Has it to do with how the new site is designed in regards to overall security??
In any case I am sure it will all work out in the end.

[BradfordBenn]

I think what KBasa is trying to say is that the goal is to ensure that people who are members are listing items in the Classifieds and not people who are not. The idea being that since you have paid to be a member you get to use the services.

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
I think what KBasa is trying to say is that the goal is to ensure that people who are members are listing items in the Classifieds and not people who are not. The idea being that since you have paid to be a member you get to use the services.

No problemo amigos :jose

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
It would be nice if there was a calendar of events online. In addition to listing the "Heard on the Road" and "When and Where" Section of the ON it could also include Monthly Club Meetings, and other events such as Saturday Rides or Charity Rides.

Also it would be nice if it was a tabular format, not a list as it currently sits, but rather looked like a calendar so that if one wanted to print it out and put it on their wall, they could.

:idea The Forum has a calendar feature that could be used for this task, but it might be "easier" for non web saavy people if it was more directly accessible, so navigation to the link http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/calendar.php?s= rather than a link to the Forum.

Make sense?

One of the ideas on the list so far is to put together an event calendar for the Chartered Club Presidents so they can coordinate regional events among themselves. This should be an ongoing activity that can provide information for the Where And When section of the Owners News, and also be displayed on the web site. I like the idea of a tabular format, as well as a calendar with links to a north American map so people could click on an event, then see where it was and also have links to the sponsoring club’s web site.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by MarkF
A searchable archive of Trip reports and tech articles from ON. Perhaps some of the past authors can be contacted for permission.

The classifieds are not a big deal because it would just duplicate the IBMWR Marketplace. Plus any ads put in the ON would be sold on the Website before they were ever published.

Hosting photos for members for public viewing would be good. You could have something like 1 or 2 photos remain while the rest auto erase after a few months. That would limit the space required and entice members to post new pics often.

Redesign of the local rally page to allow searches based on date range or miles from a zip code would be neat but not neccessary.

MarkF

Good ideas, Mark. We've had a lot of requests for an on-line Flea Market, so I think that's going to happen sometime after the site split. Although at first glance it seems like a duplication of the IBMWR Marketplace, I don't think it would be.

First, members posting to an access-controlled list would be a lot less likely to get hit with the all the scam email that seems to happen with just about every bike listed on the IBMWR.

Second, a lot of members like the idea of limiting their advertisement to other BMW MOA members - it's a trust thing, like the Anon Book. For those who aren't concerned about such things, there is still the IBMWR list and Ebay. I see a BMW MOA members only classifided section as being complimenatry to the existing options. Your point is well taken that an on-line Flea Market would diminish the value of the hardcopy version, but I don't think it would eliminate it. There are still a lot of people who are not on-line savy, so that would be their alternative.

It will also make for changes in the magazine since the Flea Market is considered advertising by the post office. The percentage of editoral to ad copy in a pub impacts mailing costs. So that space would have to be made up to keep the editorial content the same. However, the replacement ads would create revenue, whereas the member ads do not. So, that would be a good thing in the long run.


I especially like the member photo idea. Maybe a little bio along with the photo and space for a link to a personal web page?

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by SNC 1923
Although I enjoy most of the features of the MOA Forums, I second the nomination for "Ride Reports." What I want to be doing is riding; when I can't ride, I like to read about riding.

I particularly like those ride reports with photos.

I know photos take up space and cost money, so that needs to be looked at. Perhaps a standardized template could be set up (limit of 12 photos) or links to sites like ofoto.com etc. might be a good idea.

Tom Moran


Oh yeah, this is a must do in my mind. But, more than just a listing of rides, how would it be to have a north american map with hot spots you could click on to find the ride reports? Then you could "virtual ride" an area and compare differnt accounts of the same rodes. If the same map also listed rallies and camping areas (with their own reviews), you could "ride" you way between to help plan your final route. I'd also like to see the ability for people to annotate a ride report with updated info and their impressions. An alternative view of the reports by date would also be good. Great stuff!

[kbasa]

Originally posted by rider1150RT
To Kbasa
Please don't shoot me :) , but why would a classifieds section depend on member verification??:dunno
Other sites don't have that and Paypal is pretty safe as to security for both seller and buyer. Has it to do with how the new site is designed in regards to overall security??
In any case I am sure it will all work out in the end.

If there was going to be any kind of classifieds section, it should be restricted to BMW MOA members, just like advertising in ON.

That's our objective with the site split. Username and password identification for a portion of the site will allow us to put content that is part of MOA membership benefits up on the web. This shouldn't be viewed as duplication of ON, but it should be viewed as an additional way to serve the membership.

Be aware, though, that at this time there is no plan to offer classifieds on the MOA website.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by flash412
How about a bug list, by model and maybe year, with counts, hopefully linked to fixes. If someone were considering buying a particular model, new or used, it would be of GREAT benefit to them to know what problems to look for which they might encounter and how to fix them. Also, it would give the BMWMOA Consumer Advocate ammunition to use when meeting with BMWNA.

I'd like to see something like:
Year/model - ## - Malady - Fix
2004 K1200S - 48 - broken camshaft - warranty replacement
2005 F650GS - 109 - rusting brake disk fasteners - BMWNA suggests owners oil them


This is a good idea but a hot topic. The first hurdle would be to get current and complete information from BMW Motorrad USA. Like most manufactures, they are a little sensitive about having "bad news" spread around. However, NHTSA safety recalls are a matter of public record and could be posted. Service bulletins are another matter, especially considering some are much more significant than others, and then there's the aforementioned problem of access to that info. But, I think this is something that should be looked at and worked on.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by flash412
How about a bug list, by model and maybe year, with counts, hopefully linked to fixes. If someone were considering buying a particular model, new or used, it would be of GREAT benefit to them to know what problems to look for which they might encounter and how to fix them. Also, it would give the BMWMOA Consumer Advocate ammunition to use when meeting with BMWNA.

I'd like to see something like:
Year/model - ## - Malady - Fix
2004 K1200S - 48 - broken camshaft - warranty replacement
2005 F650GS - 109 - rusting brake disk fasteners - BMWNA suggests owners oil them

How about a sticky at the top of each forum with a short list of items in a poll? As we start to see consistent failures, we can add votes. I believe that there are tools that allow us to leave a thread open, but restrict posting in that thread to voting only, though I'm not sure.

Awesome idea, Flash.

[kbasa]

I've got some ideas about photo sharing. There are a bunch of places to host photos online, usually for pretty short money. There's places like smugmug, ofoto, photo island and the like. Figure $20 a year.

We pay for two components of hosting, bandwidth and storage. When pictures are loaded to the forum as attachments, we pay to store the pictures and then to serve up the photo to every person that hits that page.

When photos are hosted by a place like pbase and links to the photos are inserted in posts, the user can insert a number of pictures in one post. Also, the MOA server doesn't store the picture or pay, in terms of bandwidth, to have that picture appear on the screen anywhere.

Now, are there ways for us to negotiate a discount with a particular hosting service and present that discount as a member benefit?

:D

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by KBasa
I've got some ideas about photo sharing. There are a bunch of places to host photos online, usually for pretty short money. There's places like smugmug, ofoto, photo island and the like. Figure $20 a year.

We pay for two components of hosting, bandwidth and storage. When pictures are loaded to the forum as attachments, we pay to store the pictures and then to serve up the photo to every person that hits that page.

When photos are hosted by a place like pbase and links to the photos are inserted in posts, the user can insert a number of pictures in one post. Also, the MOA server doesn't store the picture or pay, in terms of bandwidth, to have that picture appear on the screen anywhere.

Now, are there ways for us to negotiate a discount with a particular hosting service and present that discount as a member benefit?

:D


Hummmm... there might be a tie in here some way with the trip report area. Photos of an area can add a lot to the description.

[JetDoc]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Snip > how would it be to have a north american map with hot spots you could click on to find the ride reports? Then you could "virtual ride" an area and compare differnt accounts of the same rodes. If the same map also listed rallies and camping areas (with their own reviews), you could "ride" you way between to help plan your final route. <Snip

Greg, this one is a must do!

[YB in IN]

I think that whatever it is that we end up doing, we need to make sure that it is thoroughly promoted in the ON. I had a discussion at Falling Leaf with some folks who weren't even aware that there was a Forum online until Brad's article in the ON about his Spokane ride. Why hasn't anything appeared in the Riding the Web column or whatever it's called in the ON. If we can get some more people in here, we can really make this web community thrive. The format of the forums is such that (well to me anyway) it seems a little less intimidating than "the big list" for newbies to get involved in, and can maybe even suck some folks in who otherwise wouldn't have much to say on other forums. We have a really good thing starting to take off here, and we need to make sure that we don't let it die, or become the playground of just a few people due to lack of advertisement amongst our membership base.

[Cliffy777]

Can't wait for the classifieds to be online.
Can't wait for more cooperation between Forum and ON.
Can't wait to see what you fine folks cook up.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by YB in IN
I think that whatever it is that we end up doing, we need to make sure that it is thoroughly promoted in the ON. I had a discussion at Falling Leaf with some folks who weren't even aware that there was a Forum online until Brad's article in the ON about his Spokane ride. Why hasn't anything appeared in the Riding the Web column or whatever it's called in the ON.

[SNIP, SNIP]


Excellent point, and a personal sore point with me. It will be addressed.

[kbasa]

I'm working on a membership discount with a photosharing service.

Not only will it be discounted for Forum members, but for every MOA member that joins and references our community, they're proposing a rebate of some funds to the MOA. I'd like to see those funds targeted to help underwrite the cost of our web services.

We'll have a more formal announcement when we get the particulars ironed out. Stay tuned. I see this as a win all the way around. More customers for the hosting folks, cheaper hosting for the membership and help with supporting the MOA's web efforts.

[lorazepam]

That is a great idea Dave, no real advertising, but help for the site and a discount for those of us who use photo sharing.

I am really disappointed in the fact that you really never read about the website in the ON. It almost seems as if the folks who really like the ON would not be hurt to see the forum go away.

Sorry to inform them, but I dont read the obsolete ads in the ON, I shop online and get it now when I need or want it. Seems like every ad in there has an email address, so what is all the fuss about in not getting them online.

I get way more tech advice online than I do in the ON, I get a wider variety of ride reports and and astronomical number of great pictures here vs ON. If I had to choose, you can knock off 10 bucks a year from my membership and stop sending me the ON. I am happy here, and the forum is the reason I joined the MOA in the first place.

Hard to make friends and coordinate rides and activities like the midwest track day, or the rounders in a magazine. Hard to get opinions on tires or seats or any number of things in the magazine, unless you are lucky enough to want what is being reviewed in that particular issue.

Tell those who spend extra bucks on first class postage for first crack at the ads in the ON, they can find it faster online, and I sure wish we could have the classifieds here.

Just seems like a bunch of political bull to keep a vast amount of technical knowledge and papers in archive, and not let the members reap the benefits of past issues here.

Someday we will be the old farts, and maybe we can get our way.

[threeflys]

on a side note, I just joined MOA and got my membership card/sticker. When should I expect to get my first copy of ON? Is it mailed at the beginning or end of the month?
Thanks,
Chris

[lorazepam]

I get mine right at the first of the month.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by lorazepam

[snip, snip]

I am really disappointed in the fact that you really never read about the website in the ON. It almost seems as if the folks who really like the ON would not be hurt to see the forum go away.


I can tell you for certain that on the Board level this is not the case, nor does it apply to any one else I've worked with in the BMW MOA. I think you will find nearly everyone on the Board both monitors and posts here.

The Forum as you know it now came about mostly because the old software was beyond capacity and needed replacement over a year ago to handle the load of the Rally chat. During that same time we were (and still are) focused on making some major and complicated changes to our web software to support true secure ecommerce transactions for Rallly registration, membership join & renewal, and Country Store purchases.

The next stage is to split the web into member and guest sections with validated login. This may also unify login for both the web site proper and the forum, although we're not sure at this point how practical that is for technical reasons.

Once the split is done, the web site will get a new and greatly updated look and we'll begin adding a lot more content, which is the motive behind starting this topic. These changes will happen this fall and winter.

Somewhere in there we'll be making a lot of noise about what's available on-line. One way of looking at this is we are building a house and got the kitchen (where everyone hangs out at parties) done first, but we'd like to wait until more is compleated before having an "open house.'"

Make no mistake about it, the overall initiiative to turn the BMW MOA web into a premier site had the full and complete support of the Board. We see it as absolutly necessary for the growth and future success of the organization.



[snip, snip]

If I had to choose, you can knock off 10 bucks a year from my membership and stop sending me the ON. I am happy here, and the forum is the reason I joined the MOA in the first place.



Actually, the cost of the ON to the members is a small fraction of $10. Providing services to a diverse membership requires a diversity of benefits, so cutting one to provide another not only fails at that task, it also pits one interest group against another. Nothing good lies down that road.


Someday we will be the old farts, and maybe we can get our way.

You want have to wait that long. :-)

[basketcase]

There are a number of great suggestions here already. The problem is going to be, "Which way do we go?"

Personally, I would like to see a general tech/maintenance board to form an umbrella to the specific model line format we have now.

There is merit in having classifieds that are limited to members only, but not having them has not kept me from finding creative ways to advertise my K11, which is for sale.

[Visian]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler

You want have to wait that long. :-)

:clap (since 1997....)

Ian

[Visian]

Subject-matter categorized dummaries of interesting content found here on the forum, linked to the original posts.

Ian

[Visian]

A set of templates that can be used by clubs to make basic websites for Chartered clubs.

Ian

[Visian]

Make it possible to join chartered clubs via the same interface used to join the BMW MOA.

Ian

[Visian]

Ability to subscribe and recieve BMW ON via the internet... ref: Zinio (http://www.zinio.com)

Ian

[Visian]

Live from Rally experience for those unable to attend.

Ian

[Visian]

Structure content so that portions are available to non-members, with easy-to-join purchase path. ref: MO (http://www.motorcycle.com/)

Ian

[Visian]

I hate havingn to dig through all this junk just to find something! ;)

Ian

[Visian]

Cross-pollenate content to create a seamless member experience.

Ian

[Visian]

Allow BMW MOA advertisers to send special offers to opted-in members on their birthday that are relevant to their bike(s) and riding interests.

Ian

[Visian]

Live streaming audio or Webex-type events with celebrities in our communities (ie: people like Helge Pedersen, or a cooperative effort with BMW Motorrad).

Ian

[Visian]

.... with monthly updates for those who want to brag and an end-of-year summary for those who like to sandbag.

Ian

[Visian]

A contest involving the Forum, the Rally, rally exhibitors and a prize awarded at the Closing Ceremony.

Ian

[Visian]

Targeted communications that are relevant to each member's profile. Like this. (http://www.visian.nu/eMOA/eMOAnewsletter.htm)

Ian

[Visian]

Real-time blog of beemer stuff from all over, via RSS.

Ian

[Visian]

... as someone else mentioned.

Somewhere in the bowels of the old site is the beginning of a better effort. We did at one point in time have a simple system that was searchable by state and provided a method of describing the roads and linking to Mapquest.

I believe that this Forum could support content like this, if we were to structure a section for it.

Ideally, there would be a structured form for submitting the content so that it could be searched and browsed efficiently.

Ian

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Visian
... as someone else mentioned.

Somewhere in the bowels of the old site is the beginning of a better effort. We did at one point in time have a simple system that was searchable by state and provided a method of describing the roads and linking to Mapquest.

I believe that this Forum could support content like this, if we were to structure a section for it.

Ideally, there would be a structured form for submitting the content so that it could be searched and browsed efficiently.

Ian

Yep. That's a pretty cool thing to have. We're working on getting the site split into member and non member sections right now.

We've got a couple ideas about similar kinds of reusable code that populate databases.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
:clap (since 1997....)

Ian


I wondered when you'd show up, ol' "quiet and shy". :)

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
A set of templates that can be used by clubs to make basic websites for Chartered clubs.

Ian

This one is under consideration, but hasn't stirred up a lot of interest from the clubs - so far.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Make it possible to join chartered clubs via the same interface used to join the BMW MOA.

Ian


This would likely require a big administrative overhead and a lot of "integration" with the clubs, so would have to be looked at closely.

However, there is a lot of interest in using the on-line rally registration system for the larger regional rallies. We think this could work fairly well and will see of there are any takers for next rally season.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Ability to subscribe and recieve BMW ON via the internet... ref: Zinio (http://www.zinio.com)

Ian

Done! You can do that now - and have been able to do so with SSL security since last April 1. The ON comes with membership.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Live from Rally experience for those unable to attend.

Ian

Do I hear a volunteer?? :)

That would be running before we can walk. What is being worked on now is a way to always provide a good Cyber Cafe at the International Rally - and wireless access through much of the rally site.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Structure content so that portions are available to non-members, with easy-to-join purchase path. ref: MO (http://www.motorcycle.com/)

Ian

That's exactly how the "guest" section of the new split site will used.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
.... with monthly updates for those who want to brag and an end-of-year summary for those who like to sandbag.

Ian

No reason this couldn't be done, provided there were sufficent volunteers willing to spend the time tracking this during riding season.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Cross-pollenate content to create a seamless member experience.

Ian

You'll be seeing some early moves in this direction over the winter.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
I hate havingn to dig through all this junk just to find something! ;)

Ian

Isn't that the nature of "forum" or bulletin board software? I agree with you about the digging part. Your suggestion could be done if there were more volunteers willing to spend the time.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
A contest involving the Forum, the Rally, rally exhibitors and a prize awarded at the Closing Ceremony.

Ian


Like what??

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
... as someone else mentioned.

Somewhere in the bowels of the old site is the beginning of a better effort. We did at one point in time have a simple system that was searchable by state and provided a method of describing the roads and linking to Mapquest.

I believe that this Forum could support content like this, if we were to structure a section for it.

Ideally, there would be a structured form for submitting the content so that it could be searched and browsed efficiently.

Ian

That was brought up in a form earlier in this thread. See my post about an interactive map with road hot-spots and links to camping site info & reviews.

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
This one is under consideration, but hasn't stirred up a lot of interest from the clubs - so far.

There is plenty of free webspace to put up a free website. But a nice start page on the BMWMOA domain would be nice. Some thing like http://www.bmwmoa.org/BMWBMW for the BMWBMW club which has their logo and contact info then link into their actual website, where ever that is. This way the MOA staff can keep at least the first page up to date when charter renewals come in. The clubs that want to can still maintain their own site or if they have none then it's a start.

MarkF

P.S. Maybe more trouble than it's worth but it's an idea.

[JetDoc]

Originally posted by MarkF
Snip > But a nice start page on the BMWMOA domain would be nice. Some thing like http://www.bmwmoa.org/BMWBMW for the BMWBMW club which has their logo and contact info then link into their actual website, where ever that is. < Snip

Actually, there is already a feature something like this accesable from the MOA home page. If you click on the "About the BMW MOA" link, it opens a sub menu. Click on Chartered Clubs, and there is a listing, by state, of all the chartered clubs and includes links to individual club web sites. Quite nicely done, IMHO.

[threeflys]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Done! You can do that now - and have been able to do so with SSL security since last April 1. The ON comes with membership.

I tried to do this and couldn't figure it out, I logged in the SSL through the country store link and didn't see anything. What is the trial to get there?
Thanks,
Chris

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by threeflys
I tried to do this and couldn't figure it out, I logged in the SSL through the country store link and didn't see anything. What is the trial to get there?
Thanks,
Chris

The second option on the left-side navigation bar of the BMW MOA web site is "Membership." Just click on that to go the the join/renew/membership pages. They work with the same SSL security as does the Country Store. Let me know if you have trouble with that link.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by JetDoc
Actually, there is already a feature something like this accesable from the MOA home page. If you click on the "About the BMW MOA" link, it opens a sub menu. Click on Chartered Clubs, and there is a listing, by state, of all the chartered clubs and includes links to individual club web sites. Quite nicely done, IMHO.

Yes, and we want to increase the links between the BMW MOA site and the clubs' own sites. Many of them have done some excellent work and are worth checking out.

[threeflys]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
The second option on the left-side navigation bar of the BMW MOA web site is "Membership." Just click on that to go the the join/renew/membership pages. They work with the same SSL security as does the Country Store. Let me know if you have trouble with that link.

Greg,
I can log in fine, but then what do I do? The owners news link on the left side will take me to the what's new page and will tell what is in the issue but I can't figure out how to get to the actual online magazine to read the articles.
Chris

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by threeflys
Greg,
I can log in fine, but then what do I do? The owners news link on the left side will take me to the what's new page and will tell what is in the issue but I can't figure out how to get to the actual online magazine to read the articles.
Chris

Oh, I see the problem! There isn't any on-line version of the Owners News. You get your subscription along with your membership to the BMW MOA. ;)

Remember, you don't have to own a BMW to join the BMW MOA - all you have to do is be interested in the bikes. :clap

[threeflys]

That's why I joined, I currently ride an '05 Ninja 500 until I get my BMW this spring.
Thanks,
Chris

[Visian]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
This would likely require a big administrative overhead and a lot of "integration" with the clubs, so would have to be looked at closely.

However, there is a lot of interest in using the on-line rally registration system for the larger regional rallies. We think this could work fairly well and will see of there are any takers for next rally season.

Yes, some process definition and process coordination would be required.

If the e-commerce code we bought does what was promised, this should not be overly complex. Honestly, the bulk of the work may be on the Chartered Club's plate.

I'm the outgoing President of the Georgia club, and will be a Director next year, so if there's an interest on the MOA's part I will bring it to our Board of Directors to see if we want to be a guinea pig.

Ian

[Visian]

Re: International Memberships


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Visian
Ability to subscribe and recieve BMW ON via the internet... ref: Zinio

Ian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Done! You can do that now - and have been able to do so with SSL security since last April 1. The ON comes with membership.

Greg -- the operative phrase was "receive"... having the ability to view our magazine on-line, in conjunction with the open content-sharing policy envisioned, would pave the way to the BMW Motorcycle Owners Association... the first global independent club of BMW MC enthusiasts.

Ian

[Visian]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Visian
I hate having to dig through all this junk just to find something!

Ian
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Isn't that the nature of "forum" or bulletin board software? I agree with you about the digging part. Your suggestion could be done if there were more volunteers willing to spend the time.

The instant that the current policy of banning any content that appears on our website from appearing in our magazine is eliminated, I will volunteer for this function.

Consider the forum format as content in its purest form... contibuted randomly over time, with subject matter and overall quality determined by the contributor.

With effort, value can be added to that raw content by combining relevant pieces of information, sorting, slicing and dicing it into more cogent forms... making it more digestible by a wider audience. Which makes it of greater value to more members. IOW, greater ROI for the MOA. (enough TLA!)

Those forms could include summaries of links on a page in the Rally site that gave readers an overview of all the different road advice that is stored on the Rally Forum.

Add some links to sites with external information and the pictures posted here, and you have some great "ride to the rally" stories for the Rally web site.

Combine the information found in comments made in reference the contirbutor's original post and you've got the makings of a great article for the BMW ON. That exposes even more members to the knowledge captured here... which helps the original contributor and the rest of the members perceive greater value in their BMW MOA membership.

And hopefully, it persuades the members who are reading the magazine to come to the forum and participate... which adds to the overall richness of the membership experience.

These are just a few examples. All it takes is some time, and the willingness to eliminate artifical barriers to the flow of information.

Ian

[MCohen]

Originally posted by Visian
The instant that the current policy of banning any content that appears on our website from appearing in our magazine is eliminated, I will volunteer for this function. ...

With effort, value can be added to that raw content by combining relevant pieces of information, sorting, slicing and dicing it into more cogent forms... making it more digestible by a wider audience.

As soon as you slice and dice the raw content and create a new article it no longer falls under the "not published before" guideline. So, go ahead and volunteer.

Michael

[Rob Nye]

Originally posted by M. Cohen
As soon as you slice and dice the raw content and create a new article it no longer falls under the "not published before" guideline. So, go ahead and volunteer.

Michael

Indeed. The question then becomes access to this trove of raw content. Any suggestions on how to make this accessible to a volunteer?

Best,

[Visian]

Originally posted by M. Cohen
As soon as you slice and dice the raw content and create a new article it no longer falls under the "not published before" guideline. So, go ahead and volunteer.


Michael -- thanks very much for the green light, however, my experience has been different.

I wholely disagree with the BMW ON's "first serial publication rights" policy because I feel that drawing distinctions between two media vehicles owned by the same organization is not in the best interest of our membership.

But... AFAIC, this is all water under the bridge, down the river and way into the ocean. I look forward to a clearly-defined communications policy statement on the matter from the leadership of our club.

:)

Ian

[JetDoc]

Originally posted by Rob Nye
Indeed. The question then becomes access to this trove of raw content. Any suggestions on how to make this accessible to a volunteer?

Best,

Check out the "Hall of Wisdom" on the K1200LT bulletin board... These guys have done a fantastic job!

http://www.bmwlt.net/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=wisdom

[MCohen]

Originally posted by Visian
Michael -- thanks very much for the green light, however, my experience has been different.

I guess that means you're not going to volunteer after all? Perhaps your experience was different for other reasons.

I wholely disagree with the BMW ON's "first serial publication rights" policy because I feel that drawing distinctions between two media vehicles owned by the same organization is not in the best interest of our membership.

And I don't think members would enjoy reading the exact same article twice. We draw distinctions between the web, magazine, Anonymous book, rally program, membership renewal letters, etc. to maximize their capabilities and bring additional value to members.

Michael

[MCohen]

Originally posted by Rob Nye
Indeed. The question then becomes access to this trove of raw content. Any suggestions on how to make this accessible to a volunteer?

Web content is accessible by all. Perhaps the question should be, how do we motivate volunteers to create new content from it?

Michael

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Yes, some process definition and process coordination would be required.

If the e-commerce code we bought does what was promised, this should not be overly complex. Honestly, the bulk of the work may be on the Chartered Club's plate.

I'm the outgoing President of the Georgia club, and will be a Director next year, so if there's an interest on the MOA's part I will bring it to our Board of Directors to see if we want to be a guinea pig.

Ian

Ian,
This is a good suggestion and related to the use of the BMW MOA web site for chartered club rally registration. We've got some bigger first to fry first, but consider it on the list.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
Re: International Memberships



Greg -- the operative phrase was "receive"... having the ability to view our magazine on-line, in conjunction with the open content-sharing policy envisioned, would pave the way to the BMW Motorcycle Owners Association... the first global independent club of BMW MC enthusiasts.

Ian

Ian, you know it's WAY beyond our mission or mandate to become a world-wide club. Right now we're trying to make it a much better club for our current and potential north american riders.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
The instant that the current policy of banning any content that appears on our website from appearing in our magazine is eliminated, I will volunteer for this function.

[snip, snip]

With effort, value can be added to that raw content by combining relevant pieces of information, sorting, slicing and dicing it into more cogent forms... making it more digestible by a wider audience. Which makes it of greater value to more members. IOW, greater ROI for the MOA. (enough TLA!)

[snip, snip]

Combine the information found in comments made in reference the contirbutor's original post and you've got the makings of a great article for the BMW ON. That exposes even more members to the knowledge captured here... which helps the original contributor and the rest of the members perceive greater value in their BMW MOA membership.

And hopefully, it persuades the members who are reading the magazine to come to the forum and participate... which adds to the overall richness of the membership experience.

Ian

Ian,
Sounds like a good idea, but I don't seen the advantage of using a limitied resource (pages in the ON) to duplicate a virutally unlimited resource (web pages). If your point is to get people to come to the web site there are better ways, and ones that will promote interest in the whole site - not just one part.

This fall/winter we'll be promoting and discussing the resources available on-line in a series of articles in the ON. These won't be a reproduction of the web content - any more than the web site is going to re-publish the mag - rather a "ride report" of www.bmwmoa.org.

There's no content conflict with the ON and your offer to compile the forum posts. For any of these great ideas we're discussing here to happen we'll need more volunteers than we have now. Part of the point in starting this thread was to get both ideas AND people willing to help make them happen.

[Visian]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Ian,
Sounds like a good idea, but I don't seen the advantage of using a limitied resource (pages in the ON) to duplicate a virutally unlimited resource (web pages). If your point is to get people to come to the web site there are better ways, and ones that will promote interest in the whole site - not just one part.


First and foremost.... this is not about duplicating. It's about synergizing for the purpose of creating an enhanced perception of value received for investing $32 in a BMW MOA membership. And about getting the most return on what the BMW MOA invests in creating and delivering information.

Second, and equally important, it is essential that this conversation be viewed from the member's perspective and not from the committtee's.

Consider this: there is a thing called information, and there are dimensions to its value... namely: accuracy, relevance and timeliness (there are others, but let's keep this simple).

Some members prefer getting this information on the web, other members prefer it in print, but many use both. Therefore, there must be consistency and continuity between our media channels... and this does not mean duplication.

Key concept: members perceive greater value in this information when it is as accurate, timely, and relevant as possible to their current context.

Let me give you a specific example to illustrate this concept.

A member contributes a piece of information to the BMW MOA via our website facility called the Forum. Let's say the information is about a cool road that can be ridden on the way to our International Rally. 10% of our members see the information in that form. The rest don't.

That piece of information gets combined with 50 other cool roads that come in the form of additional posts made to the Forum. Some of that information is comments about the original road, some of it is about other roads, and some of it is about the cool places to camp, eat, see along the way. Unfortunately, it's all jumbled up into 50 different threads and posts to the Forum. So now members have to dig through it all... and most people don't want to work that hard.

However.... each piece of this information is of value to other individual members depending on a number of variables: where they're coming from, when they're heading out, what kind of bike they ride, how much time they have, their level of riding skill, the kind of riding they're interested in.

So.... how do you extract this value?

First, someone could go through all the posts and copy portions of the text from each of them, make a web page that lists the information in short, digestible chunks sorted by "riding from east of the Rally, from west of the Rally, etc." and dual-sport roads, twisties, fast and fun... whatever makes sense. If there were pictures in the posts, those are used to illustrate the web page so that it looks cool. The page is then linked from the Riding to the Rally section on the Rally Site's home page.

Each piece of information on this page is linked back to the original Forum post that contains all of the details.

But this is way too much information to print on paper in the BMW ON. So... portions of this information could be stitched together into one continuous ride to the rally and published as an article in the BMW ON, combining information from the forum with that found through other research.

Then... someone reading the BMW ON sees the article and says... "hey... I've ridden that road that there's this really cool campground that the writer didn't know about." So that person goes to the Forum and adds to the thread, which effectively enhances the value of the original information.

That, my friend is synergy. :)

Why do I know this works?

It's exactly what I've done as Rally Webmaster in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. I got a lot of the information from members of the IBMWR. And some came in various bits and pieces contributed via e-mail that came through our Rally Web site.

After the Rally, the Rally Site pages can be catalogued into a section of the site called "Great Roads".... organized by areas of the country, so that people visiting bmwmoa.org in the future can enjoy the benefits of the knowledge that's been created and captured in the past. (BTW, there are 6+ years of great road articles just waiting on the old rally web sites for someone to read... but the pages are no longer live.)

This same dynamic could work for Roger Wiles' new column called Touring Tips in the BMW ON, for Paul Glaves' Bench Wrenching column, and on and on.

See?

Ian

[Rob Nye]

Originally posted by M. Cohen
Web content is accessible by all. Perhaps the question should be, how do we motivate volunteers to create new content from it?

Michael

I'm sorry I got crossed up.

I thought the idea was modifying content that was previously published in the Owners News, or submissions that the editor decided not to use.

- Rob Nye

[Visian]

Originally posted by Greg Feeler
Ian, you know it's WAY beyond our mission or mandate to become a world-wide club. Right now we're trying to make it a much better club for our current and potential north american riders.

Oh.... is THAT what's in that box over there? ;)

:stick

Ian

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Visian
First and foremost.... this is not about duplicating. It's about synergizing for the purpose of creating an enhanced perception of value received for investing $32 in a BMW MOA membership. And about getting the most return on what the BMW MOA invests in creating and delivering information.

Second, and equally important, it is essential that this conversation be viewed from the member's perspective and not from the committtee's.

[snip, snip]


Consider this: there is a thing called information, and there are dimensions to its value...

...Therefore, there must be consistency and continuity between our media channels... and this does not mean duplication.

[more snips]

Let me give you a specific example to illustrate this concept.

A member contributes a piece of information to the BMW MOA via our website facility called the Forum....

...That piece of information gets combined with 50 other cool roads that come in the form of additional posts made to the Forum...

...Unfortunately, it's all jumbled up into 50 different threads and posts to the Forum. So now members have to dig through it all... and most people don't want to work that hard.

[snips galore]

First, someone could go through all the posts and copy portions of the text from each of them, make a web page that lists the information in short, digestible chunks... ...The page is then linked from the Riding to the Rally section on the Rally Site's home page.

[snip]

But this is way too much information to print on paper in the BMW ON. So... portions of this information could be stitched together into one continuous ride to the rally and published as an article in the BMW ON, combining information from the forum with that found through other research.

Then... someone reading the BMW ON sees the article and says... "hey... I've ridden that road that there's this really cool campground that the writer didn't know about." So that person goes to the Forum and adds to the thread, which effectively enhances the value of the original information.

That, my friend is synergy. :)

[snipping even more good stuff]

See?

Ian


Ian,
First, I have to take exception to your implication that the Board ever looks at anything from other than the members' perspective. As I know you well know, this is a volunteer organization and we are all members first. In fact, your volunteer credentials are first rate. Let's just leave it that you were trying to set a context for your discussion. Fair enough.

As to your points, there's nothing wrong with these ideas - they're great in fact - but you are talking about running when we are trying to walk. The time to talk about this level of information delivery is after we have a working infrastructure in place and a well oiled staff of volunteers, and likely some paid contractors.

You and I have had many, many discussions like this, and I expect we'll have many more. :evil We really do agree far more than we disagree, but for one key area: timing. The BMW MOA is not a multinational organization with a large budget and staff to implement grand visions of perfect communication - at least not now.

We need "Peripheral Visionary" people like you - just don't get frustrated if it can't all happen at once. :brow

But, if you're still up for volunteering to "process" info from the forum along these lines that would rock.

[kbasa]

Originally posted by Visian

First, someone could go through all the posts and copy portions of the text from each of them, make a web page that lists the information in short, digestible chunks sorted by "riding from east of the Rally, from west of the Rally, etc." and dual-sport roads, twisties, fast and fun... whatever makes sense. If there were pictures in the posts, those are used to illustrate the web page so that it looks cool. The page is then linked from the Riding to the Rally section on the Rally Site's home page.



Dood. Great idea, but we've all got real jobs that we need to pay attention to.

Having to wade through the posts and other info to reassemble them and republish them seems like a heck of a lot of work. Additionally, using any kind of search criteria based on Boolean operators is going to allow us to find some content, but not all the content we're looking for to publish.

This strikes me as an extremely labor intensive proposition that will be difficult to do with any degree of efficiency. In a typical data structure, each post or thread would need to be coded in some fashion so we'd have keywords or other items to search on. The content we have now has terms that can be searched by vBulletin, but it only searches on key words in the text. The problem with keyword based searching is that each data item is either in or out of the result set. For example, if I did a search for the Top of the Rockies Rally, I might get documents that contained that phrase. It wouldn't catch documents that referred to that rally as The Paonia Rally or some other name. In that case, the ability of the searcher to return good hits depends on the terms selected. In some cases, its' difficult to return the documents you want without bringing back so many results that the search is meaningless.

I completely understand your objective here. Repurpose the parts, use the knowledge a number of times and help it be found in new places, in new combinations. In combination with different information, the original information can take on new meaning or shed new light on the surrounding information.

But I think the assembly part, with the tools we have, is going to be difficult. I work with multimillion page databases that are built to correlate information into new meanings to try and prosecute or defend a firm in court.

One of the tools we have is a tool that looks at content of documents and associates them together, based on teh content. Such a tool would be ideal to have here, but it's not cheap, nor is it suited for working in a web environment.

I think when that ability, to automate the collection, sorting and assembly of information, particularly if it can done via an automated interface the client can operate, will revolutionize the flow of information in the web environment.

Picture it this way. A client is reading an article on the forum. They like it and use that document to say "show me more like this". The tool crawls the site and returns other documents that bears the most amount of similar content to the search source document. In this methodology, we're using the entire content of the document to serve as our search criteria and ranking the results according to how much content they share in common with the source. More content = more relevant. Easy to find the stuff you're looking for too.

So anyway, I've digressed a great deal here. I think assembly and research is going to be the stumbling block to making this reality.

[Visian]

Originally posted by KBasa

... I think the assembly part, with the tools we have, is going to be difficult.

...snip

So anyway, I've digressed a great deal here. I think assembly and research is going to be the stumbling block to making this reality.


by me....

Why do I know this works?

It's exactly what I've done as Rally Webmaster in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. I got a lot of the information from members of the IBMWR. And some came in various bits and pieces contributed via e-mail that came through our Rally Web site.


Dave -- think outside the box. You don't do this with computer tools, you do it with your brain, your fingers, and your enthusiasm.

There have probably been 50 or so articles for the BMW MOA written this way. Other volunteers from the past have done the same thing. These articles are all on dark pages on our server. Unfortuanately none of them were published in the BMW ON.

And yes, I have a day job. As I've said to my employees... take the energy you spend telling me why it can't be done and use it to find ways to make it happen. :)

Ian

[Visian]

Originally posted by KBasa

I think when that ability, to automate the collection, sorting and assembly of information, particularly if it can done via an automated interface the client can operate, will revolutionize the flow of information in the web environment.



Dave -- you would have liked to hang with some of my buds from my days in the Bay Area.... Ted Nelson and the Xanadudes. (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/3.06/xanadu.html) Ted was one cray-zee mo-fo, let me tell you... him and his pal Tim Leary.

I share your vision, my friend. But until then, Google is the way to go.

:)

Ian

[merrittgene]

Originally posted by Visian
So.... how do you extract this value?

First, someone could go through all the posts and copy portions of the text from each of them, make a web page that lists the information in short, digestible chunks sorted by "riding from east of the Rally, from west of the Rally, etc." and dual-sport roads, twisties, fast and fun... whatever makes sense. If there were

This seems like a huge undertaking, and that's just to cover one topic. Obviously, there's way too much information for one person (or even a small team) to handle, ***BUT***, what if this work could be done by 10,000 people all at once?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

I don't understand the mechanics of how it works, but it could be a mechanism for EVERY ONE of us to add, subtract, and edit information and basically maintain everything as a living document.

[GoGriz]

How about a suggestion for something EASY and that almost everyone will agree with!!

This, like other forums, has a wonderful array of information contributed by many knowledgeable people. Frequently, I will key in on a thread, and scroll down to see the end of the particular post. Many times, by the time I get to the end of the post I realize that I don't know who posted it...so I have to scroll back up and read the handle and see the avitar.

So...how about a simple mod make a simple mod ;) that would show one handle and avitar at the top like there is currently, but also one at the end of a post, so you didn't have to keep scrolling up to see who posted it. Surely I can't be the only one who gets to the end of long posts and says..."gee, I really like what he or she had to say." or "Yeah, I have the same thing on mine." or the like and then wonder who I have something in common with. Would be a small code change but might be a useful change...what do you think?

[BradfordBenn]

OKay trying to get the thread back on track...

I think it would be extremely helpful if there was a document of netiquitte and what is allowed/not allowed on the forum. We have some basic guidelines, but not anything that can be referred to or found easily. That way everyone knows what the expectations of conduct are.

[Visian]

Originally posted by Visian
So.... how do you extract this value?

First, someone could go through all the posts and copy portions of the text from each of them, make a web page that lists the information in short, digestible chunks sorted by "riding from east of the Rally, from west of the Rally, etc." and dual-sport roads, twisties, fast and fun... whatever makes sense. If there were


Originally posted by merrittgene
This seems like a huge undertaking, and that's just to cover one topic. Obviously, there's way too much information for one person (or even a small team) to handle, ***BUT***, what if this work could be done by 10,000 people all at once?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

I don't understand the mechanics of how it works, but it could be a mechanism for EVERY ONE of us to add, subtract, and edit information and basically maintain everything as a living document.

Gene -- reading back on what I wrote, I wasn't 100% clear, and I can understand how you might reach the conclusion you did (that there is way too much information for one person...)

Please bear with me while I try again.

1) I am not saying to catalog/document every post in the Forum. Instead, the idea is to pick out a few pearls that are related to each other and use them to build interesting stories on traditional web pages and articles in the BMW ON.

Here is a specific example:

a) Riding the Lolo Pass to Spokane. First, seach on the word "Lolo" using the Forum's search function. You're going to see a gajillion posts that mention that word.

b) Scan through those posts and you will see a ton of unrelated information, but some information about that road. And pictures.

c) Find a few post that describe the road well and copy a bit of text from them. Place the text on a web page, edit it into cogent form and place it on a page in the Rally site titled "Great Roads to ride from east of Spokane." Add some pics that were posted to the Forum and then link to the original post(s).

I can tell you from personal experience that this will take about 15-30 minutes to do.

Here is an example of this kind of web page. (http://www.visian.nu/rally2001/fromcalifornia_east.htm) This article was created in almost exactly the way I described. We didn't have the Forum then, but members of the BMW Riders of Oregon contributed little drips and drabs of information, and so did members of the IBMWR. I stitched them into what you see here, adding pics that were contributed by other BMW MOA members.

d) After the web page is done, then... combine this info with other info on the Beartooth Pass, Independence Pass, other passes and create an article for the BMW ON called "Here's your Pass to the Rally." This will take 3-4 hours. And it is FUN! (Please ask me how I know this).

e) A member reading the article in the BMW ON says... "dang... I know of a great campground along that road..." and visits the BMW MOA Forum to contribute that information.

It is easy, fun, and I would volunteer to do it (again) if there weren't a rule that says that anything that shows up on our web site can't be in our magazine.

Ian

ps => your pointer to Wiki is very well taken. Like Dave Swider, I strongly support a direction like this. Like Greg, however, I recognize that we only have limited monetary resources to fund technology like this. The whole reason I took the initiative to install this Forum was to pave the way toward the idea you present.

[GregFeeler]

Originally posted by Rob Nye
Greetings,

An epic thread hi-jack indeed.

[snip, snip]

In addition to the forum we also invite members to attend our quarterly board meeting in St. Louis. We always make sure there is ample opportunity to discuss new business. I think that if you are really serious about being an agent of change you may have a better chance of success joining us face to face rather than hi-jack every possible thread.

Hot on the heals of that, I am now asking that we all get back on topic. I started this thread to get input and discuss ideas about our impending web site upgrades. As interesting as has been this discussion with flash - it isn't helping with the web content questions.

So, a) let's get back on track, and b) flash if you would like to continue this I invite you to start a thread on the topic and see what member interest lies in this direction.

Although you don't know this, I likely would be your strongest alley on the Board about a idea like this. I have worked with BMW of and on for over thirty years, starting in a dealership in the early 70's, and have my own stories to tell. BUT, right now I have to focus on working with a lot of folks to fasion a better web site.

Again, flash, if you would just chill out - a lot - and save the "hammer time" for when it's really needed, you might just find a lot more support for your cause.

I'm going to review your last post in detail over the weekend and in lue of you starting a new thread, will post you privately. This was interesting to say the least, and not without it's merit. They say steel sharpens steel. :)

[kbasa]

Originally posted by gelandestrasse
How about a suggestion for something EASY and that almost everyone will agree with!!

This, like other forums, has a wonderful array of information contributed by many knowledgeable people. Frequently, I will key in on a thread, and scroll down to see the end of the particular post. Many times, by the time I get to the end of the post I realize that I don't know who posted it...so I have to scroll back up and read the handle and see the avitar.

So...how about a simple mod make a simple mod ;) that would show one handle and avitar at the top like there is currently, but also one at the end of a post, so you didn't have to keep scrolling up to see who posted it. Surely I can't be the only one who gets to the end of long posts and says..."gee, I really like what he or she had to say." or "Yeah, I have the same thing on mine." or the like and then wonder who I have something in common with. Would be a small code change but might be a useful change...what do you think?

Signatures at the bottom of a post go a long way toward solving that. It's difficult to modify the code to add that handle and avatar at the bottom of posts.

Good idea, though.

[BradfordBenn]

I know Visian posted the idea of blogs via RSS, but why not news pushes via RSS. Such things as a week before the mailing deadline for ballots or mileage contest sending out reminders...

Or stuff like Recalls... well you get the idea.

[Visian]

Originally posted by BradfordBenn
I know Visian posted the idea of blogs via RSS, but why not news pushes via RSS. Such things as a week before the mailing deadline for ballots or mileage contest sending out reminders...

Or stuff like Recalls... well you get the idea.

Brad -- we're talking the same thing. Blogs, forum threads, and basic newsfeeds stored on URLs are all basically the same thing.

BMW MOA could add value and drive traffic to its site via RSS without a lot of volunteer overhead. Little outbound newslets that keep people tuned into the club.

Ian

[BradfordBenn]

Ian-

Gotcha. I understand the RSS technology as I am fighting to add it to my site. I was just adding an application especially with the voter turnout the past few elections.

-=Brad

[Visian]

Boy howdy. It was interesting to see bloggers get a spot at the conventions... and the role they played in debunking Dan Rather's 60 Minutes story.

This technology has been floating around geekland for several years and now that decent newsreaders are available, as well as tools for building blogs, the whole area is beginning to take off.

I find it particularly interesting for targeted marketing and for community building.

Ian

[ian408]

One of the things that slows VB down are attachments. On forums where
large numbers of attachments are present, the pages load sloooowly. I think
someone said this is related to the attachment database.

A member benefit could include limited attachments. But personally, I think
using a hosting service like smugmug (http://www.smugmug.com) or pbase (http://www.base.com) should be encouraged over attachments.

Ian

[GregFeeler]

A member benefit could include limited attachments. But personally, I think using a hosting service like smugmug (http://www.smugmug.com) or pbase (http://www.base.com) should be encouraged over attachments.

Ian

Actually, members of the Forum admin team are working on an arrangment with Smugmug right now. I believe they will be ready to annouce details very soon. :clap

[BradfordBenn]

One of the things that would be nice is if the advertisers' index could be updated each month to include the advertisers for that month.

It is an added value for both our advertisers as well as our members. Plus it would be nice to see a page of URL from the articles in the ON. :thumb

[pmdave]

Wow! This business of web info is really complex, but there is such a huge potential that I'm sure glad you guys are working the problem. One basic difference between ON and the web site is that ON has a professional editor and a budget. If only about 10% of MOA members currently access the website, that would hint that only about 10% of the ON budget should be redirected to help make the website happen. However, as more and more members get into the E world, the website could take on a role that is equally important to hard copy, and as a result be given more financial priority.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a small increase in dues to help pay for the website, say $2 to $5. However, every member now receives ON, and it would not be fair to charge those who do not use the website to help finance it.

I enjoy reading ON, and typically re-read everything about twice. It's a different experience for me than trying to navigate the web. I can set the magazine down on my footstool without being concerned about the phone line being tied up, or the computer left running, or any other technical concepts. The graphics are instantly available, I don't have to wait and wait (and wait) for them to "load". Just flip the pages. If you aren't interested in a photo, a half-second glance allows you to make the decision to look elsewhere, without having to click a mouse. I could go on about my preference for hard copy, but I'm sure you get the point.

The big advantages of E copy are the ability to morph as others weigh in, the ability to get relatively quick feedback, and the ability to search to quickly find what you're looking for.

So, my put is to use E copy to exploit it's advantages. I like perusing the ads in ON, but if I'm really looking for a part, I'd rather go on line, see what's available today, and deal directly with the seller. I've noticed that the used parts category seems to be shrinking--one indicator that others feel the same way.

After all the high zoot discussions of what the future of this site might look like, I'd like to suggest one modest item that I think needs a separate forum: riding skills. That's my personal bag, but I know there are many BMW riders who share my interest in skills (not just the machinery). What with copyrights etc. I don't think it would be practical to reprint articles from ON on the website, but I think some basic information or quotes could be posted to give someone the basic idea of the article. Then anyone could weigh in on a discussion, add comments or suggestions, ask questions of the author, etc.

If that's a do-able model, then it seems to me that it's time to take a poll of the contributors to ON, and see who would or wouldn't be interested in participating in an E discussion of the month's topic. For instance, I just read Paul Glaves' Bench Wrenching column on K bike starter clutches with great interest, because at the moment I've got my K1 torn down to fix an oil leak. Since I'm down DEEP to the aux cover already, I'm wondering if I should dig even deeper to clean the starter clutch--even though It hasn't been causing any problems. My instant thought was to call Paul on the phone and ask his advice. But I also realize that there may be a number of others with similar questions, and I suspect it would be more efficient to have us all see each other's questions and the expert's answers. That E approach would certainly be better than writing a letter to the editor.

pmdave
author of the Between The Ears column in ON
:type

[lorazepam]

I enjoy reading ON, and typically re-read everything about twice. It's a different experience for me than trying to navigate the web. I can set the magazine down on my footstool without being concerned about the phone line being tied up, or the computer left running, or any other technical concepts. The graphics are instantly available, I don't have to wait and wait (and wait) for them to "load". Just flip the pages. If you aren't interested in a photo, a half-second glance allows you to make the decision to look elsewhere, without having to click a mouse. I could go on about my preference for hard copy, but I'm sure you get the point.

The big advantages of E copy are the ability to morph as others weigh in, the ability to get relatively quick feedback, and the ability to search to quickly find what you're looking for.

So, my put is to use E copy to exploit it's advantages. I like perusing the ads in ON, but if I'm really looking for a part, I'd rather go on line, see what's available today, and deal directly with the seller. I've noticed that the used parts category seems to be shrinking--one indicator that others feel the same way.

pmdave
author of the Between The Ears column in ON
:type

All you need to do is upgrade to a cable odem or DSL Dave. The pictures come right up, and no waiting. Doesn't tie up the phone lines. Add a wireless router, along with anti virus software and you are relatively safe from hackers and virus'

I would love to see more of the folks that are in the club join the 20th and 21st centuries, and get a dang computer. They can make friends, set up rides instead of the 800 ride line, and generally have more excuses to ride.

Limiting the potential of the website because people don't want to take advantage of it seems very unfair to me. We have no idea how many copies of the ON go unread, but we can track how many people do use the website.

I dont have the space or the inclination to save my ON magazine. I read it a time or two, and it gets recycled. The great thing about the website is I can search here for lots of tech advice without having to wade through old magazines. I can print it out for use, and throw it away after it gets dirty.
I can find the same stuff online right away, instead of waiting for a magazine that has the items listed online along with the ON.
It cracks me up that folks will have the ON delivered first class so they can have first crack at the ads, and the same stuff is probably advertised online and can be seen any time they want.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, it is just that if we have the potential to make change, why waste it?

[kbasa]

Yup. Bandwidth is the key. I've had a cable modem for about 7 or 8 years now and can't live without it. It turns your computer into an appliance you can extract information from easily. It's like having a library sitting on your desk.

For example, I fly quite a bit on business. I make my reservations on line, check in online and check the weather and like online. I pay my bills online (OK, Tina pays our bills online). I talk about bikes online. I post my pictures on a smugmug account so other folks can see them. The problem is that my family is still using dialup, so they don't see the computer as the information appliance it can be.

If they had bandwidth, they'd change their mind. However, my dad says "I don't use the computer that much". Well, the reason he doesn't use it that much is because it takes him a half hour to download a photo. It's kind of a vicious circle.

[BradfordBenn]

It sounds weird being the geek that I am :brad but I do agree with Dave about the physical qualities of the printed document. For the stuff I want to read and not just browse, I print it out and read it. It is nice to put something down and be able to come back to it.Somehow it just seems to hold my attention more.

However High Speed is the key and without that the website could be really difficult for people to use.

Having said that and looking at lots of the threads in the gear section, it would be great to have a searchable resource of the reviews that have been put into ON as well as a current index of articles.

[lorazepam]

ok how about a search "keyword" block. People can type in a keyword and get a ton of information that way. Prompting someone to search with a place to type a word in instead of a pull down menu would help IMHO.

[ian408]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a small increase in dues to help pay for the website, say $2 to $5. However, every member now receives ON, and it would not be fair to charge those who do not use the website to help finance it.

Put another way, I would be willing to give up my ON subscription to receive
it electronically. But I would not want to pay more to receive both.

Ian

[kbasa]

Put another way, I would be willing to give up my ON subscription to receive
it electronically. But I would not want to pay more to receive both.

Ian

It would be kind of cool to get ON as PDF. I could store those on my machine. Using some text searching tools (dtSearch comes to mind) I could crawl across the entire collection looking for tech articles or product reviews pretty easily.

I love reading the mag, but I throw them out after a couple months since I don't want to store them.

:type

[riderR1150GSAdv]

Have been trying to read through 108 posts :coffee and I don't think it was mentioned but it would be beneficial to have a 'Hall of Wisdom' section. This is where techical information is posted in a read only format. I.e how to change oil on a R or K bike is a simple thing, but new riders ask the same questions all the time, and it takes up bandwith to rehash the same things over and over again. Look at the K 1200 LT site and see what I mean.
Just my 0.02 cts and now more :coffee

[pmdave]

It may be difficult for you "city" guys to understand that out here where the indians still surround the wagons at night, the telephone line may be the only means of connecting to the outside world--other than cell phones and dish antennas. As a practical matter, even if DSL lines were extended down the main road, our community drive is about 600 feet from the main road, and our private drive is another 250 feet to the house. Utilities are underground, so installing a cable would require some serious digging--for which someone would probably want some pay.

And, even if there were a cable connection, the price out here is OUT HERE.

But the bottom line for a great many people is that the whole concept of communicating via a computer carries with it some obligations that we may not want to take on. If I weren't writing, I might do without a computer entirely. While my current box is doing fine, I've had about one major headache each year with computers, from software incompatibility to processor death. Apparently, computers are still a bit in the dark ages, and to use one reliably requires that you become a bit of a computer nerd. For a motorcyclist, that means you need to be both a motorcycle nerd and a computer weanie--not to mention a bunch of other occupations and hobbies such as tending the house, maintaining the bike, and keeping the frau happy.

Computers seem to be settling down, with sufficient capacity, reliability, and ease of use, and as they become cheaper and more reliable, more people will be convinced to become computer literate. Once they master "driving" a computer, they may start using the net more and paper less. In the meanwhile, for many of us, hard copy is the first choice, and E is a way to amplify the hard copy.

pmdave :type

[kbasa]

Have been trying to read through 108 posts :coffee and I don't think it was mentioned but it would be beneficial to have a 'Hall of Wisdom' section. This is where techical information is posted in a read only format. I.e how to change oil on a R or K bike is a simple thing, but new riders ask the same questions all the time, and it takes up bandwith to rehash the same things over and over again. Look at the K 1200 LT site and see what I mean.
Just my 0.02 cts and now more :coffee

Excellent idea!

[Visian]

...it would be beneficial to have a 'Hall of Wisdom' section. This is where techical information is posted in a read only format.

This is the thinking behind the suggestion I made earlier. Find all the good posts related to various subjects and make a page of links, categorized by each subject.

For example:

Oilchanges
... for airheads (link to post/posts)
... for oilheads (link to post/posts)
... for K bikes (link to post/posts)
... for F bikes (link to post/posts)

Tires
... changing them (link to post/posts)
... places to buy them (link to post/posts)
... opinions on brands (link to post/posts)

etc.

This could be complemented by traditional articles written by taking excerpts from these posts and stitching together a cohesive story.

It is so much easier than having wade through all the posts that are listed when you search, or... answering the same questions over and over again.

Ian

[Visian]

I love reading the mag, but I throw them out after a couple months since I don't want to store them.


Ditto.

That's why services such as Zinio (http://www.zinio.com) are so appealing.

I believe that offering the BMW ON via PDF would help us gain a vast number of international memberships. Right now, the only limitation is the cost of sending snail mail.

Ian

[JetDoc]

This is the thinking behind the suggestion I made earlier. Find all the good posts related to various subjects and make a page of links, categorized by each subject.

For example:

Oilchanges
... for airheads (link to post/posts)
... for oilheads (link to post/posts)
... for K bikes (link to post/posts)
... for F bikes (link to post/posts)

Tires
... changing them (link to post/posts)
... places to buy them (link to post/posts)
... opinions on brands (link to post/posts)

etc.

This could be complemented by traditional articles written by taking excerpts from these posts and stitching together a cohesive story.

It is so much easier than having wade through all the posts that are listed when you search, or... answering the same questions over and over again.

Ian


Again, there's no sense in trying to reinvent the wheel... As Rider1150RT suggested in a previous post, Go to the bulletin board section of the K1200LT web site < www.k1200lt.net > and check out the "Hall of Wisdom." You'll see exactly what you're talking about. The hard part is putting the index together and keeping it current.

[ian408]

It would be kind of cool to get ON as PDF. I could store those on my machine. Using some text searching tools (dtSearch comes to mind) I could crawl across the entire collection looking for tech articles or product reviews pretty easily.

I love reading the mag, but I throw them out after a couple months since I don't want to store them.

:type

Exactly. You could even use the google search tools to do it. Even better,
add the functionality to the web site (members only) via htdig or something.
htdig can parse all sorts of files.

The storage issue is a big deal for me as well.

Ian