Play in rear wheel

[MotorradMike]

OK boys:

I'd appreciate some advice.

1996 R1100RS
90,000Km / 54,000Miles

I have some play in the rear wheel. It is most apparent when on the C stand and bumping the rear tire against the floor with hand force right/left at 12 O'clock. We discovered this questionable technique while playing with a friends obviously messed up FD. I've read that 1mm of play is acceptable. My hands are not calibrated but I would guess I'm at about that. I got Jen to hold the rear brake while I did the other and the movement seemed to go away.

I searched here and found the RVB precision site which pretty much advises me to replace the pivot bearings with Rubber Chicken bushings.

At this point I intend to get the bushings, the Loctite 270, the Honda MolySlip, and do what the RVB site describes during Winter downtime which will happen very soon here.


Last remark: This bike owes me nothing. I have had so much fun that I don't care if I have to buy a whole new FD. She's worth it.


I'm looking for confirmation that I'm on the right track, pitfalls, warnings, whatever.


Thanks in advance.

Mike

[ragtoplvr]

There are 2 common failures that cause play in the rear wheel.

I should know, I have had them both.

On the C stand, put your finger between the disk brake caliper and the brake rotor, grap wheel at 12:00 oclock and move back and forth, if you feel the rotor move relative to the caliper, you need to replace the Big Ball Bearing.

If no movement, then move hand to 3:00 or 9:00 oclock and move wheel, if you get movement then it is the pivot bearings.

No point in doing the wrong ones.

Rod

Don't let either one go, rusted pivot bearings can damage the aluminum pins, and the other failure can cause stranding or worse.

Rod

[MotorradMike]

Thanks Rod:

Tried what you said and can't feel any movement unless I bump the tire on the floor. Then I feel it at both 9 and 12.

I'm missing something.


Mike

[Ken F]

Mike, pull your seat off and watch the top shock/spring mount as you bounce it, and see if you don't have some play there.

460

[MotorradMike]

That would've been easy 460. Just checked the shock mounts, both ends are tight, the movement is at the wheel.

[DrPaul]

I got Jen to hold the rear brake while I did the other and the movement seemed to go away.Mike, this would point to the FD as the source rather than the pivot bearings. Is rotation of the rear wheel smooth and quiet (except for the normal brake pad hiss)? Have you drained the FD to look for bits of metal? I would do this next.

[MotorradMike]

I changed the FD oil 2 weeks ago. This was done before I noticed the play. There was some black fuzz on the magnet as usual and the oil colour was the same as it's always been.

Rotating the wheel by hand is smooth and no bad noises, no rough feel. Just brake drag.

[PGlaves]

OK - something is moving. But what?

It is either the entire swingarm in the frame (transmission case actually), or the final drive in the swingarm, or the crownwheel (ring gear) assembly in the final drive. Usually it is one of the latter two.

That particular model has the disk bolted to the crownwheel, so it is very easy to detect even minute amounts of movement in the crownwheel. Simply press your finger at the gap where the disk enters the brake caliper which is mounted to the FD case. If the crownwheel and disk are moving relative to the case and caliper you can feel it here.

And to check the play in the final drive pivot bearings just remove the clamp and peel back the front joint of the rubber boot. You can see play at this location, or reach in and feel it here too.

[MotorradMike]

Just got back from likely my last real ride this year. Met two crusty old guys in Calabogie on 1150GSs. One had 140,000 on his Odo so I asked him about his experiences with the FD. His was rebuilt and it had less movement than mine but he scoffed at my worry when he checked mine out.
"Just ride it" he said.

Ha Ha. Just met the guy so he didn't know I can't leave well enough alone!

Paul:
Thanks for your reply, I just peeled back the boot and I can feel movement in the pivot between the part attached to the FD and the swingarm casting with the rear brake on. I'll be in touch with Rubber Chicken to get the bushings etc.

Thanks to everyone else who shared info as well.

[ragtoplvr]

It is also possible that the strut "rod" on the bottom of the drive is loose, at either end. Again, a finger between the stamped metal "rod" part and the casting tells a lot. This has a rubber bushing that I guess could fail. If you do not have wobbles otherwise this is about all I can think of not already discussed.

In any case, if no sideways movement, I would not worry too much.

Rod

[MotorradMike]

Thanks Rod but I've managed to feel movement inside the swingarm at the pivot bearing so I'm changing those to bushings.

[jingdog]

Which doesnt answer your question "whats this play in my rear wheel mean"? BTW I dont think the play means anything but keep an eye on it.

[bikerfish1100]

an inexpensive (labor only) test on the pivot bearings is to try adjusting them a bit tighter. If you can, and the play goes away, then you have isolated the problem.
typical lifespan on those bearings is anywhere from 20-50K miles, unless you are adjusting them on a religious basis.

[PGlaves]

Which doesnt answer your question "whats this play in my rear wheel mean"? BTW I dont think the play means anything but keep an eye on it.

In all 20 or so cases that I have personally found and fixed it means that the tiny roller bearings that support the whole back of the motorcycle have worn the rollers flat-sided, or into little chunks, and have worn grooves in the races. When little roller bearings wear like that they get loose and the final drive moves in the swing arm.

Then, the alignment of the drive shaft can alter sideways, causing increased stress and wear on the rear universal joint.

Then at some point in time the driveshaft needs to be replaced for $916 (current retail list), or worse, it breaks.

Then if you are lucky you only hear a lot of clanging and banging as you pull the clutch and coast to a stop, hopefully out of the way of traffic.

But if you aren't lucky, in among the clanging and banging you hear a loud screetch as your rear wheel locks up and the bike hopefully slides to a controlled stop,

But if you aren't lucky and skilled both, it high sides and dumps you on the ground.

That's what it means. No big deal. Just a little play.

[jingdog]

Hmm. How many of the twenty you fixed dumped their riders?

[PGlaves]

Hmm. How many of the twenty you fixed dumped their riders?

None, but a couple did the screetch the tire bit, and one had to be lifted onto the trailer because the rear wheel wouldn't roll up the ramp.

The most common result of the neglect is though, what I consider to be premature universal joint wear but caught before anything broke.

[ragtoplvr]

I would suggest not adjusting the roller bearings when slack develops. There will be binding in the bearings, and the inner race would want to turn on the aluminum pin. Once it wears thru the anodizing the pin will quickly be destroyed, adding to the expense of the repair, if you are lucky. If these were a plain bearing like the rubber chicken bearing, then the cratering and binding would not occur, and you could adjust that bearing.

rod

[jingdog]

One thing I am hearing that concerns me is the lug nuts on the rear wheels of these bikes coming loose or even falling out shortly after R&Ring. I always make a point to check all the fastners/lugs involved in holding on the front or rear wheels on after 100 miles or so. And if a mechanic does any work on the bike. Im thinking people are forgetting to tighten the lugs. Possibly they work loose...although its hard to believe.
Ive never heard of an FD problem actually causing an accident but the possibility is there for sure...even just a leaking seal could do it.

[bikerfish1100]

Ive never heard of an FD problem actually causing an accident but the possibility is there for sure...even just a leaking seal could do it.

that occurrence has, unfortunately, been documented on this site, as well as on others (advrider, st-n, and others). probably rare, and sometimes no injury only due to luck, but crashes have happened.

[MotorradMike]

I would suggest not adjusting the roller bearings when slack develops. There will be binding in the bearings, and the inner race would want to turn on the aluminum pin. Once it wears thru the anodizing the pin will quickly be destroyed, adding to the expense of the repair, if you are lucky. If these were a plain bearing like the rubber chicken bearing, then the cratering and binding would not occur, and you could adjust that bearing.

rod

I agree completely. I think the JL bushings are an improvement on the original design.
Thanks to this community, I've been checking, found an issue, and narrowed it down to the pivot bearings.
I may not fix all the play with the new bushings, but I will fix some of it.

As Click & Clack say "It's the stingy driver who pays the most".

[jingdog]

As Click & Clack say "It's the stingy driver who pays the most".

Well I know what you mean but theres another side to the coin. "If it aint broke dont fix it" is a commonly understood piece of wisdom everybody gets. Also my neighbor Mr. Chowfin was very proud of the fact that he never changed the oil on his car which he bought brand new. It had 80,000 miles on it (1974 Chevrolet Nova) when he died of liver cancer.

[ragtoplvr]

Yes, thanks to this community, I have found and fixed the big ball bearing failure and the pivot bearing failure before experiencing any of the more advanced warning signs like stranding, screeching tires, death wobble, high or low side. Repair techniques are nice.

As far as the things coming loose, you can take a sharpie and mark the bolts, for a quick visual check, next time tire is off, then you can clean off the sharpie mark with a quick squirt of carb cleaner and make your new one.

FWIW Harbor Freight has a inexpensive set of Allen socket bits with both the 7MM size and the 12MM size, mine works great, and inexpensive. They have a inexpensive heat gun to soften the thread-lock and expand the aluminum for easy disassembly, and bearing removal. They have inexpensive C clamps very useful for pressing bearings, so cheap you can modify them for the application, and also for keeping tire beads compressed, and inexpensive long tire irons. Some of the stuff needs help, and some is pretty decent for seldom used tools. I have the tire balance stand with the BMW tire adapter, it is poor, I will be helping it. As is accuracy is only about an ounce. Too much run out. But makes a good starting point I guess.And for most of us balance within an ounce with USA speed limits (or suggestions) is good enough.

Rod

Rod

[MotorradMike]

Well I know what you mean but theres another side to the coin. "If it aint broke dont fix it" is a commonly understood piece of wisdom everybody gets. Also my neighbor Mr. Chowfin was very proud of the fact that he never changed the oil on his car which he bought brand new. It had 80,000 miles on it (1974 Chevrolet Nova) when he died of liver cancer.

Agree with "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My bike is broke though, the pivot bearings have worn out and need to be replaced.

Mr. Chowfin may not have ruined his engine to the point he couldn't drive the car, but he certainly ruined it for his heirs!

[PGlaves]

Well I know what you mean but theres another side to the coin. "If it aint broke dont fix it" is a commonly understood piece of wisdom everybody gets. Also my neighbor Mr. Chowfin was very proud of the fact that he never changed the oil on his car which he bought brand new. It had 80,000 miles on it (1974 Chevrolet Nova) when he died of liver cancer.

Now I know that BMW owners as a group tend to change oil more often than required, but 80,000 on oil is a stretch. I bet he had one of those toilet paper roll oil filters too.

I do believe in "if it ain't broke don't fix it. But I also believe in finding out if it is broke.

In the case under discussion it is broke. The bearings are damaged and allowing play that wasn't there when the bike was newer. To me that means it's broke. Now nothing fell off yet, and probably won't, but it's broke, so "if it ain't broke don't fix it" doesn't apply.

[jingdog]

Gee a toilet paper filter would have been a sign he did something! I tried to talk him out of his maintenance plan but he never gave an inch! He had a PhD in English and was a college prof too! I was 14 and rebuilding various VWs at the time. He would spend hours watching me work, and seemed really keen on how an engine was rebuilt. But he never accepted my offer to get his hands dirty and help. (he seemed to think you needed a lisence from the state to work on a car) A charming man in many respects but completely at a loss where mechanical things were concerned.
He never did a thing to that car. Of course it ran like crap but that never concerned him. From his point of view Im sure he thought he was right.

[PGlaves]

Gee a toilet paper filter would have been a sign he did something! I tried to talk him out of his maintenance plan but he never gave an inch! He had a PhD in English and was a college prof too! I was 14 and rebuilding various VWs at the time. He would spend hours watching me work, and seemed really keen on how an engine was rebuilt. But he never accepted my offer to get his hands dirty and help. (he seemed to think you needed a lisence from the state to work on a car) A charming man in many respects but completely at a loss where mechanical things were concerned.
He never did a thing to that car. Of course it ran like crap but that never concerned him. From his point of view Im sure he thought he was right.

Well, that explains that.