How cold is too cold for 20w50?

[BubbaZanetti]

not an oil thread

let's call this a "state of matter" thread

what is the coldest average temp you'd run dino 20w50 in an airhead?

i'm gonna do an oil change tomorrow, this is my winter oil, i guess, i'm probably just gonna stick with 20w50 as it doesn't really get super cold here (figure avg winter startup is gonna be in the 30-45 degree range) from what i know this is probably fine, but i sometimes feel my bike's a bit "fragile".

i used to run lighter oils in my oilhead in the winter, but that was massuchusetts "highlands" colder winters (regularly rode in the teens) and a newer bike.

[cjack]

not an oil thread

let's call this a "state of matter" thread

what is the coldest average temp you'd run dino 20w50 in an airhead?

i'm gonna do an oil change tomorrow, this is my winter oil, i guess, i'm probably just gonna stick with 20w50 as it doesn't really get super cold here (figure avg winter startup is gonna be in the 30-45 degree range) from what i know this is probably fine, but i sometimes feel my bike's a bit "fragile".

i used to run lighter oils in my oilhead in the winter, but that was massuchusetts "highlands" colder winters (regularly rode in the teens) and a newer bike.

I used to run 10W40 in the winter. One year when Mobil 1 first came out I ran 5W30 or whatever it was then. That way my bike would start sitting outside the lab all day in 10 deg F. It used a quart about every 500 miles with that stuff that winter. But it started. When I took it apart years later, everything looked like new incl the cyl bore. Any oil is better than no oil.

[vanzen]

Also a synth user ...

but the /7 factory Repair Manual
has an "Engine Oil viscosity Chart"
(Oil grades to use at various outside temperatures)
at the beginning of the book ...

according to that chart,
20w50 is suitable from @ 16ºF to @ 110ºF

15w50 from @ –5ºF to @ 85ºF
and 10w50 gets you down to @ –21ºF to 50ºF

I think you'll be safe with 20w50 year round.

[bikerfish1100]

Derek, your MOM will tell you that the range for 20W50 is about 15F to 105F. 15W50 goes -5F to 90F, and 10W40 goes -20 to 40F. My feet are only good to about 20F or so, and with a 30 mile commute, and speeds around 70 as common for much of it, i rarely push even to that 20 deg mark. i run 20W50 all year round.

[Braddog]

I run 20/50 dino in one of my airheads. It gets kind of "stiff" below 30 degrees F.

That said, my "guy" recommends Mobil 1 synthetic, 15/50, all year 'round. That's what I've been using in my '77 RS for the last 3 years, and have been very satisfied.

[lkchris]

15W-50 Mobil 1 would be perfect for winter and not because it's 15 but because it's synthetic. Its cold pour point is almost the same as any other grade of Mobil 1. You can look it up.

[jforgo]

I switch a couple bikes to the Maxxim 10/40 for winter. We are talking teens in the morning, high maybe to low 50's at most. The dual plug one would start better with the 20/50 than the other. But really, the bike was groaning with the thicker oil, especially at startup. And even 30 minutes in a store in the afternoon would leave it quite cold again. I feel the 10/40 was much easier on the motor, especially at startup, during these cold temperatures.

[rinty]

My winter airhead oil was 10W-40.

[jamesdunn]

I use 10w40 in the winter here in Iowa.

[Mika]

“State of Matter”

Isn’t this the key question for either dino or synthetic oils in terms of temps? The SAE rating is related to how the oil behaves at a given temp and its ability to deliver the protective and lubricating nature of the stuff.

The lubricating ability of any oil has to do with its ability to first penetrate and cover the surface (bearings is the big concern at startup) while providing the proper sheeting and adherence at the current operating temperature both ambient and of the engine itself.

Single viscosity oil will provide a certain ability to penetrate a bearing gap while providing a defined lubricating ability to that surface. Multi grade oil is a multi personality oil. The two numbers combined give a temperature range over which the oil is designed to have a viscosity to penetrate the gap deliver the sheeting and lubricating benefit of the higher number.

Multi grade oils of any kind give a wider range of safe range of start up and operating temperatures than single grade oils. If a multi grade oil meets all of the alphabet soup requirements for the engine it is put in and covers the operating temperature range at start up that you anticipate encountering you should be fine. At least that is the promise as I understand it.

What is the ambient temp where you are is an important question in selection. I don’t know about the temp ranges in NY. When I Roundered my airhead in Chicago temperature differences between what was reported for lake side v at O’Hare varied by 15 degrees normally. In the Lilydale suburbs of the Twin Cities the temperature range varied between 5 and 10 degrees. What I paid attention to was did my oil meet the low temp requirements of where I would be starting my engine again after it was sitting for a while.

[mneblett]

While we all know the charts say it's *acceptable* to use 20W50 down to ~15F, the better question is:

Would you be better off going to 10W40 in the winter because the thinner oil will make turning a cold engine over easier?

(consider this oil thread pot freshly stirred :D)

[rinty]

What I paid attention to... was the low temp requirements...Mika

That was my focus, as well, when I had my airhead. And airheads can be a bit difficult to start at colder temperatures, which I think is caused by pumping losses from their high capacity oil pumps, and because of the vacuum carbs. They need a good spin at startup to before they'll light off.

That was my experience with my RS, anyway.

[535is]

While we all know the charts say it's *acceptable* to use 20W50 down to ~15F, the better question is:

Would you be better off going to 10W40 in the winter because the thinner oil will make turning a cold engine over easier?

(consider this oil thread pot freshly stirred :D)
Another way of putting this is, "How far are you willing to walk back from wherever you are when your 20W oil is too thick for your cold battery to stir?" :doh

[BubbaZanetti]

Another way of putting this is, "How far are you willing to walk back from wherever you are when your 20W oil is too thick for your cold battery to stir?" :doh

what i'm basically getting to, my oilhead cranked over with a bit of difficulty at 18 f with 20w50 dino, a bit better with 15w50 dino, WAY better (like it was 75 out) with 5w40 rotella, which i used as my "winter oil" on the R11S. the "slow to start" nature of this airhead when it gets cool seems like it'd only be further hampered by oil that was too thick. the other reasons i don't want to go with a "winter oil" on the airhead is 1. runing 10w40 on a weird 88 degree day next april in a bike that gets significantly hotter than my oilhead used to, on a bridge, in traffic, in nyc, does not sound good. 2 it seems all the "pros" are against the thinner oil in the hotter running airheads.

have not considered synth only in deference to the 25 year old seals, don't want the thing to resemble the bsa and norton parked along side it.

[20774]

Not sure of your situation at home/work but...could you preheat the oil somewhat for the Airhead, as in put a light bulb under the oil pan? I've heard of people doing that and the bulb providing enough heat to keep the oil at a higher temp for easier starting.

[Mika]

Now you’re starting to hit the second part of winter or cold weather starting issues – cold cranking power of our electrical systems. We (myself included) compensate for old batteries and not charging them by using lighter oil when it gets cold.

[crazydrummerdude]

Now you’re starting to het the second part of winter or cold weather starting issues – cold cranking power of our electrical systems. We (myself included) compensate for old batteries and not charging them by using lighter oil when it gets cold.

I was thinking of making the switch, when this morning, my R90 was reluctant to start. It was probably still in the low 50's.

About 4 attempts, 4 seconds each, and it started. Smelled something funny, and saw my negative battery post had melted.

:hungover

[fabiox]

I am in NYC too and I was asking my self the same questions this week.
Now I have 20w50 semi-synthetic oil but i will wait to see how this winter will turn out. at the momenti have semi-synthetic 10w40 because my bike is cold blooded and I dont want to take chances stressing my battery.

[108625]

How about this, Derek:
Your engine is cold when it starts, and when it starts only. The rest of the time, it is running under the conditions the oil will be working hardest at. If you're going to start it and ride at freeway speeds for half an hour+ every day, you'll probably want different oil than if you're going to start it and scoot around a few city blocks at half that RPM for half as long. Pick the oil that suits your riding needs and adjust your starting/warm-up habits accordingly.

[hairsmith]

Located in Texas here so may not be much help.
But I run 20/50 year around, there is a good chance we will have high 80's in Jan. and Feb. But with a good battery and starter my RS cranks over just fine in the few mid 20 mornings we have also.
I do give the bike time to warm the oil as well as its self before making it work or turning over 3,000 RPM.

When I started riding I lived in Ill, and loved 2strokes because they would start more reliably in cold temps. With 10/40 and temps in the single digits could not even spin a 4stroke over fast enough to start with the kick starter. This was pre magic button.

[lkchris]

How about this, Derek:
Your engine is cold when it starts, and when it starts only. The rest of the time, it is running under the conditions the oil will be working hardest at. If you're going to start it and ride at freeway speeds for half an hour+ every day, you'll probably want different oil than if you're going to start it and scoot around a few city blocks at half that RPM for half as long. Pick the oil that suits your riding needs and adjust your starting/warm-up habits accordingly.

Yes, if you're worried about heat, synthetics are the answer.

Just like they're the answer if you're worried about cold.

[BubbaZanetti]

still haven't changed the oil, maybe i'll put 10w40 in, infrequent rides, potential short rides, etc, makes sense

[kgadley01]

still haven't changed the oil, maybe i'll put 10w40 in, infrequent rides, potential short rides, etc, makes sense

You'll be fine with either one...if the bike is newer I'd stay with 20-50. if its an older airhead or Flying Brick, i'd go with 10-40 in the winter. the only difference being the cold cranking power between old and new....

[jamesdunn]

Yes, if you're worried about heat, synthetics are the answer.

Just like they're the answer if you're worried about cold.

I run synthetic in my oilhead. I am hesitant to do so in my older '78 boxer. I have read so much negative info concerning weepage, etc. Still, I 'd like to try synthetic in the old girl. Guess it could do no harm. And, it might help.

[keelerb]

I run Redline full-syn 20W-50 year roun (bike is an 84 R100RT, and it's my "winter bike" although it does manage to get out some in other seasons). In New England. Most starts in winter are after rolling the bike out of my garage, so it's probably not below 40 degrees or so (engine metal temp). Haven't had any issues yet. I do run an Odyssey batter and Enduralast charging system - don't really want to walk home from a cold winter's ride....

Dino oil is simply sludge prone enough to mask bad seals/gaskets/etc. Fix the problem and use quality oil. Your bike will thank you. So to speak....

[BubbaZanetti]

I run Redline full-syn 20W-50 year roun (bike is an 84 R100RT, and it's my "winter bike" although it does manage to get out some in other seasons). In New England. Most starts in winter are after rolling the bike out of my garage, so it's probably not below 40 degrees or so (engine metal temp). Haven't had any issues yet. I do run an Odyssey batter and Enduralast charging system - don't really want to walk home from a cold winter's ride....

Dino oil is simply sludge prone enough to mask bad seals/gaskets/etc. Fix the problem and use quality oil. Your bike will thank you. So to speak....

so the seals on the airhead are designed for synthetic oil per the manufacturer's recommendations?

[bikerfish1100]

(Originally Posted by keelerb)
I run Redline full-syn 20W-50 year roun (bike is an 84 R100RT, and it's my "winter bike" although it does manage to get out some in other seasons). In New England. Most starts in winter are after rolling the bike out of my garage, so it's probably not below 40 degrees or so (engine metal temp). Haven't had any issues yet. I do run an Odyssey batter and Enduralast charging system - don't really want to walk home from a cold winter's ride....

Dino oil is simply sludge prone enough to mask bad seals/gaskets/etc. Fix the problem and use quality oil. Your bike will thank you. So to speak....

(Originally Posted by Bubba Z)
so the seals on the airhead are designed for synthetic oil per the manufacturer's recommendations?


oh dang, CanOfWorms, v 2.1, here we go!
i did an oil change to synth on my '78RS in 1981, 1500 miles into a 2 month x-c trip. brother of a friend was working with a company that had just introduced it on the market (no recall as to who was producing it), so i got a free change. had never heard of synthetic oil, and the claims of a 10K mile change interval were met by my with both astonishment and skepticism- i had never heard of such a thing at the time! it worked fine, no issues, changed out around 5,000 miles later to the regular stuff.
point being- in 1981, synth was a pretty new product, and the "new" generation airheads had been around for a dozen years.
"seals designed for synth"? not likely. is there a need for seals to be designed for synth? no idea. many here report weeping/seeping happening after changing to synth on their airheads, and then report it ceasing after going back to dino. "sludge prone" dino oil that masks poor seals? have done enough oil changes in the last 30 years without ever seeing any trace of sludge anywhere in the system that i find that unsupported statement to be a bit dubious as well.
i don't have a definitive answer on it at all (I'm not an oil engineer, I don't play one on TV, and i slept in my own bed last night rather than at a HIExpress)- but my gut says "nope, sure don't think that that is what is going on either."

my bottom line advice (worth exactly what you paid for it)....if i wanted to prep my bike for winter riding in consistently colder weather, i would feel fine switching to 10W40, but realize that i would want it out of there by mid-March or so.

[amiles]

My brother has done many amateur oil experiments. His wife has had to work around his Oil section of the deep freeze. One thing that he has consistently seen is that synthetic oil stays liquid and pourable to much lower temperatures than does the dino.

My point in this is that the oiling system will be able to circulate liquid oil sooner and more efficiently, particularly at startup, in my book a very important thing.

[kgadley01]

so the seals on the airhead are designed for synthetic oil per the manufacturer's recommendations?

I ran Mobil 1 15-50 in my 1988 R100RS for the 1 1/2 years that I owned it with no leaks or problems...

[lkchris]

I run synthetic in my oilhead. I am hesitant to do so in my older '78 boxer. I have read so much negative info concerning weepage, etc. Still, I 'd like to try synthetic in the old girl. Guess it could do no harm. And, it might help.

It's no problem in my '84s.

No matter what kind of oil you use, an Airhead will require rear main seal and/or pushrod seals periodically anyway. These are the only spots there are to worry about and it's no big deal. The leakage stuff is WAY overblown.

[jamesdunn]

It's no problem in my '84s.

No matter what kind of oil you use, an Airhead will require rear main seal and/or pushrod seals periodically anyway. These are the only spots there are to worry about and it's no big deal. The leakage stuff is WAY overblown.

Okay, thanks. My pushrod seals are new and rear main is fine, for now. I will switch to syn. on my next oil change,

[BubbaZanetti]

It's no problem in my '84s.

No matter what kind of oil you use, an Airhead will require rear main seal and/or pushrod seals periodically anyway. These are the only spots there are to worry about and it's no big deal. The leakage stuff is WAY overblown.

good to know, i did my pushrod seals this summer, also did my transmission input seal and while i was in there said "NOPE, the rear main is fine"

but it's not

so i'll replace that then consider making the switch

[crazydrummerdude]

good to know, i did my pushrod seals this summer, also did my transmission input seal and while i was in there said "NOPE, the rear main is fine"

but it's not

so i'll replace that then consider making the switch

Don't forget the oil pump o-ring while you're in there.

[BubbaZanetti]

Don't forget the oil pump o-ring while you're in there.

yah, i think that's where my leaking is actually coming from.

mid 40s up in the catskills this weekend, i know it's not very cold, but the bike started up just fine with the heavier oil.

[Typ181R90]

just out of curiousity, has anyone out there used block heaters on their bikes during the winter? I'm considering getting a heating pad or something similar to place around the heads/oil sump an hour or so before start up, tried the light bulb thing and I just don't like the noise the bike makes when the bike turns over. Also planning on switching to 10/40 as the bike turns over hard and slow currently in temps in the 40s in the morning, but am open to all options.

[cjack]

Use caution whatever. I know someone who burned his bike down with a light bulb extension cord thing under the bike.
Synth oil and a light weight works wonders.

[Typ181R90]

Use caution whatever. I know someone who burned his bike down with a light bulb extension cord thing under the bike.
Synth oil and a light weight works wonders.


besides the crappiness of the lightbulb system, what you just said is the exact reason I'm moving onto another method... besides, I only use the lightbulb for a half hour to an hour and that probably isn't long enough to make a difference anyway

[PGlaves]

Since there are so many varying opinions ranging from in-spec dino oil to out of spec dino oil, to out of spec diesel oil, to in spec synthetic oil, to lightbulbs, I'll offer mine.

If stored/parked overnight outside, use 10w40. If parked in a garage with a modicum of heat overnight and not parked more than 5 or 6 hours outside at the restaurant or tikki bar, then 20w50 is fine.

When we lived in Kansas I rode some every month and used 20w50 year-round. But the garage was attached to the house and got some warming even though not heated. If it was way cold out and I went for a ride I didn't park for more than the hour or two it took to eat if we stopped at a restaurant.

One year on December 8, Voni's birthday and snowing, she insisted she wanted to ride a bike. I had to bring her F650 into the dining room to warm it up, and then needed to blow warm air on the carbs to make it start. But since it was about 8 degrees and the bike was in the totally unheated shop building I considered this a little victory.

p.s. It was cold enough out there she didn't ride it very far, or very long, but she did ride it.

[PGlaves]

Here she is, enjoying her Birthday ride:

And now back to the topic of winter oil.


.

[Typ181R90]

Went out to get 10w40 today and came home with BMW's 10w50. I'll post how it works, hopefully I won't have to switch again

[Yockyrides]

Just changed my oil to 10W40. Morning temps now around 38 and headed downward. Around April will go back to 20W50. Bike now has 178,000 miles.

[criminaldesign]

Camped around south east WV in the mountains this past weekend and had no problem with the bike starting in the cold mornings, fired right up considering being outside throughout the weekend. Currently running with Lucas 20W50.

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/GcUZb1oeR9yvizY773NaIw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_QUlLxCsQNp0/SvmWNDBMNuI/AAAAAAAAA9k/CcYS9NzxWTg/s800/SunMorn-1.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/houstonmcintyre/SouthEastWV?feat=embedwebsite">South East WV</a></td></tr></table>

May go to 10W on next oil change for the winter which will be a moment since the motor was drained and refreshed this past Thursday. Had to use what was left in the box.

[zoridog]

Since there are so many varying opinions ranging from in-spec dino oil to out of spec dino oil, to out of spec diesel oil, to in spec synthetic oil, to lightbulbs, I'll offer mine.

If stored/parked overnight outside, use 10w40. If parked in a garage with a modicum of heat overnight and not parked more than 5 or 6 hours outside at the restaurant or tikki bar, then 20w50 is fine.

When we lived in Kansas I rode some every month and used 20w50 year-round. But the garage was attached to the house and got some warming even though not heated. If it was way cold out and I went for a ride I didn't park for more than the hour or two it took to eat if we stopped at a restaurant.

One year on December 8, Voni's birthday and snowing, she insisted she wanted to ride a bike. I had to bring her F650 into the dining room to warm it up, and then needed to blow warm air on the carbs to make it start. But since it was about 8 degrees and the bike was in the totally unheated shop building I considered this a little victory.

p.s. It was cold enough out there she didn't ride it very far, or very long, but she did ride it.

In the dining room? I caught hell from my wife for bringing one in the basement! But then again, my wife isn't shooting for that million mile patch.

[jamesdunn]

Just changed my oil to 10W40. Morning temps now around 38 and headed downward. Around April will go back to 20W50. Bike now has 178,000 miles.
Ditto on the 10W40. I was thinking of going to synthetic but stayed with Dino.

[BubbaZanetti]

oh, btw

tucked the bike away for the winter. just don't have time, inclination etc to put up with the expense of garaging it in nyc this winter. i got it home and had 3L of 20W50 so i dumped the old stuff and put that in. if it gets started this winter it'll probably be very, very infrequently and only for a nice long ride.

[20774]

i got it home and had 3L of 20W50 so i dumped the old stuff and put that in. if it gets started this winter it'll probably be very, very infrequently and only for a nice long ride.

bz -

3L is too much for the bike...unless you have a deep oil pan. There needs to be an air volume above the oil in the crankcase and the extra liter robs that. You could get overpressurization of the seals and create some leaks. I'd say don't start it or try to get that extra liter out either by a quick drain or use some kind of turkey baster suction device out the fill hole.

[BubbaZanetti]

bz -

3L is too much for the bike...unless you have a deep oil pan. There needs to be an air volume above the oil in the crankcase and the extra liter robs that. You could get overpressurization of the seals and create some leaks. I'd say don't start it or try to get that extra liter out either by a quick drain or use some kind of turkey baster suction device out the fill hole.



i had 3L, i didn't say i put it all in the bike :)

[20774]

i had 3L, i didn't say i put it all in the bike :)

OK, I guess you got me there...:nono But you did write "had 3L of 20W50 so i dumped the old stuff and put that in". I sure sounded like the entire 3L went into the bike...

[GlobalRider]

not an oil thread...

It must be, because there are 4 pages in this thread to answer a simple question. :D

[keelerb]

If stored/parked overnight outside, use 10w40. If parked in a garage with a modicum of heat overnight and not parked more than 5 or 6 hours outside at the restaurant or tikki bar, then 20w50 is fine.

When we lived in Kansas I rode some every month and used 20w50 year-round. But the garage was attached to the house and got some warming even though not heated. If it was way cold out and I went for a ride I didn't park for more than the hour or two it took to eat if we stopped at a restaurant.

This pretty much matches my experience in the Boston area, where I ride my 84 through the winter (it actually sees relatively little use outside of winter, but we are a multibike family) and use 20W-50 (full syn) year round. . I too store it in an unheated garage, temp in there dip but don't go below freezing I would think.

Once I'm underway, I don't make many stops. Ride, come back, thaw out. Maybe try to wipe major salt clumps off the bike. Corrosion is a major problem, given the salt we love to dump on the road around here.

[BubbaZanetti]

It must be, because there are 4 pages in this thread to answer a simple question. :D

you should change your viewing options, i've only got about 1.5 pages:)

and were this 20/50 synth, i wouldnt be having this talk, but till i finish replacing the last of the seals, im sticking with dino (since they're leaking already). as it is, since i've decided to give my riding a rest for a few months, it's not a big deal.