first problem in 22 years of riding k-bikes

[code]

I came out from work to find a puddle of antifreeze under my K11RS. Next day flushed and re-filled. No leaks for almost three weeks. I figured the thermostat stuck. But know its dripping out of the weep hole under the pump again. I'm guessing the seal has gone bad. The question is, how big of a job is it to replace the seal. Do you need a special tool to press a new one on. Or am I better off taking it to the shop. Anybody have any experience with this?

[PHMarvin]

Hi, Code,
I don't know where you are, if there is a competent dealer near you. That may have a bearing on my answer.

Were it me, I would do the donkey work - remove the fairing lower and then the oil/water pump, then take the pump to the dealer and have him replace the seals. Then I would reinstall the pump. He would do the part needing skill, tools and knowledge; I would do the part requiring mostly time and a slight amount of sealant. If you have had problems with your dealer in the past or he doesn't have a really good reputation, my answer would be I'd do it myself and not be surprised if I destroy a seal before I get it right.

[Gilly]

I did one on my old K75, so I always figure, If I can do it, anyone can. I even did the seal. If you have access to a set of seal drivers or large sockets as a substitute, that should work. You need to drive it in with something alright, but nothing really fancy/official has to be used (not that BMW doesn't have something shown in the books that they say should be used). Grab a Haynes or whatever and have at it. Oh the housing for the pumps uses sealant between that and the block, you do want to be careful about what you use as a sealant, I used a product called Loctite 5900, that stuff works GOOD. I'd be hesitant in using just some RTV sealant from NAPA for example. Oh and know the torque specs and use the torque wrench, most every fastener on this job is fairly critical. If you understand all that I'm saying in this post you should do fine.
Gilly

found a place that has 5900 in 50 ml tube, usually all you can find is a 300ml for a caulking gun:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=000-043-204-35-M258&catalog_description=Loctite%20%35%39%30%30%20%28%3 5%30%20ml%20Tube%29%20%20%20

[deilenberger]

Phil's advice on having the dealer do the seals is good advice. BMW changed from a PITA to install seal set to a nearly impossible seal set to install.

Paul Glaves said he averages 50% success in installing new seals on these pumps - and I think he's a tad more skilled than most people here (especially first timers on seal replacement.) You also can end up needing a new pump shaft if the old one is pitted, and some pumps need a different impeller to work with the new seals.

Sound like a can of worms? It is. It's covered a bit on the IBMWR K-tech pages.

If it was me - my first instinct would be to just buy a new pump and be done with it. The old one owes you nothing after this many years. It's pricey - but a sure fire way to know you'll be riding again shortly not worrying about the water pump seals. The second instinct would be R&R of the pump with new seal installation left to a dealer's mechanic who knows older K bikes (and these are becoming rarer as mechanics and the bikes age..)

YMMV..

[Gilly]

How do you go about knowing if the pump you buy will match the impeller, or are they sold together? Or if the impeller is bad and you get a new one if it will work with the pump you have now?

Gilly

[deilenberger]

How do you go about knowing if the pump you buy will match the impeller, or are they sold together? Or if the impeller is bad and you get a new one if it will work with the pump you have now?

GillyThe new pump comes complete except for the front cover - you are expected to use the old front cover.

It isn't a case of impellers going bad - it's which ones work with what shafts and seals. Sort of a puzzle there, that can get expensive if it doesn't work.

[code]

Thanks for the advice guys. I got a quote from one shop for a new pump installed for about 800 bucks. They didn't want to replace just the seals. So I called another shop that would determine that after its apart. But its going to be two and half weeks before they can get me in. I'm half tempted to take the pump off and take it in to them, since it has to be off the bike to replace the seals anyway. It might speed up the process.

[41107]

the pump shaft the bike came with had a external thread to hold the pump impeller in place.this threaded stud would break off on some bikes letting the retaining nut bounce around in the pump housing destroying everything.Thus a new pump shaft with internal threads and new impeller.And BMW makes a tool to pull the new seal onto the pump shaft and into the housing.I tried using a socket and ruined a new seal just like that.Lesson learned.:german

[58058D]

I bought my first KRS with about 4500 miles on it. On my first ride of over ten miles, the nut on the front of my impeller broke off and shot out the front like a bullet. It happened shortly before I parked at the curb and all my buddies came out to see it....it was dumping coolant and the front cover plate had a hole with pealed back metal like...a bullet shot out. Even though the bike was over 6 years old, BMW covered the parts since they had done a redesign. I just paid the labor. I had the seals replaced once before I sold it at 45k, did the pump r&r myself, had the dealer press them in.

[chuck_donahue]

I came out from work to find a puddle of antifreeze under my K11RS. Next day flushed and re-filled. No leaks for almost three weeks. I figured the thermostat stuck. But know its dripping out of the weep hole under the pump again. I'm guessing the seal has gone bad. The question is, how big of a job is it to replace the seal. Do you need a special tool to press a new one on. Or am I better off taking it to the shop. Anybody have any experience with this?

If I were you....
the bike is 22 yrs old. don't even try to replace the seals, replace the whole pump with a new one. 1 1/2 hours easy work. The hardest part is draining and refilling the fulids. If it were 1/2 as old I would say a re-build kit (more than just the seal) would be fine but I know my 22 year old pump was not sutable for rebuilding.

[deilenberger]

I'd have to agree with Chuck. Paul Glaves commented in a K-bike seminar we were giving at the RA national - this his success rate on rebuilding pumps is about 50%. And he is skilled and has done it before. Given the cost of the seals (and then a new set after you destroy the first set learning how to install them), the special tools needed, and the chance of ultimate failure anyway (due to pitted shafts..) I'd just spring for the new one. A few hours and you're out riding again.

YMMV, but bet it doesn't.

[bikerfish1100]

and i would (have) absolutely do the in/out job myself, regardless of whether i decided on rebuilding or replacing the pump itself. Easy work, and will save you quite a few bucks.

[JamesBayles]

I have done probably over thirty of them, never bought a pump, or housing. Had maybe two leak after getting them back on bike. Newer seal design is better. Yes buy the tool to set seal depth on shaft, (its not rocket science). My worry would be your ability to get all of the air out of the system and pressure test after done. Estimated price here at my shop $300.00-400.00 (complete bike)

[41107]

at $ 800 for a pump i would rebuilt the darn thing my self.Get the proper tool to place the seal .And even if on the first try the seal breaks you're money ahead and you learned something.The rebuilt kit comes with a new shaft anyways.So what about all the pitting?Besides the pitting in my book comes from not changing the coolant when recommended.The pump housing itself should be in good shape because nothing can wear out.I always like doing things my self because i don't trust most mechanics out there.Most of them are butchers.

[deilenberger]

at $ 800 for a pump i would rebuilt the darn thing my self.Get the proper tool to place the seal .And even if on the first try the seal breaks you're money ahead and you learned something.The rebuilt kit comes with a new shaft anyways.So what about all the pitting?Besides the pitting in my book comes from not changing the coolant when recommended.The pump housing itself should be in good shape because nothing can wear out.I always like doing things my self because i don't trust most mechanics out there.Most of them are butchers.

Karl, at $800 - I might also. But the pump is listed complete at $444.00 at Max BMW (and 20% less at Chicago BMW). http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/MainDiagrams.asp?mospid=47861

There is no kit I can find for the shaft/seals - and the parts costs are:


Shaft - $101.77 (BMW suggests replacing this whenever a pump is rebuilt)
Slip Ring Seal - $21.34
Shaft Seal - $6.45
Spacer Bush (sold with Slip Ring Seal) $7.43 (BMW suggests replacing this whenever a pump is rebuilt)

If you have a 1985 vintage K100 - you'll also need a new impeller:

Rotor - $14.26 (BMW suggests replacing this whenever a pump is rebuilt.)


Total cost (not counting miscellaneous O rings): $151.25, PLUS the cost of the special tool to install the seal. Couldn't find the price for it. IF the rebuild doesn't take (and you won't know that until you've remounted the pump and filled the cooling system) - you're out at least the cost of the slip ring seal again for your 2nd try.

That's VS paying the $400 or so for a new pump from Chicago BMW, mounting it and going riding.

I know what my choice would be. And it's the choice of Paul Glaves now also.

[deilenberger]

I have done probably over thirty of them, never bought a pump, or housing. Had maybe two leak after getting them back on bike. Newer seal design is better. Yes buy the tool to set seal depth on shaft, (its not rocket science). My worry would be your ability to get all of the air out of the system and pressure test after done. Estimated price here at my shop $300.00-400.00 (complete bike)James, good for you!

What would you charge someone who sent you their pump for rebuilding (including repair costs/shipping/handling/misc/taxes)?

[41107]

Just because you Mr. Deilenberger and Mr Glaves think so doesn't make it religion.The $800 figure i was referring to was mentioned earlier.Thread # 7 by "code"

[deilenberger]

Just because you Mr. Deilenberger and Mr Glaves think so doesn't make it religion.The $800 figure i was referring to was mentioned earlier.Thread # 7 by "code"I don't believe I ever said it was "religion" - just worth thinking about by people who may not be as masterful with a wrench as you are.

And wherever the $800 figure came from - it was being referenced as a reason to rebuild. Unfortunately - it was wrong. The equation changes when the pump complete is 1/2 the price quoted.

Whatever - if you're happy that's all that counts. :wave

[bikerfish1100]

that $800 figure was the "here's my bike, please give it back to me with a new pump" cost.
apples to oranges compared to when you're doing your own repair.
then the equation comes down to ~$400 new vs. ~$150 rebuilt parts. not as great a disparity, but certainly tempting enough that some will jump on the rebuild.
in fact, last time i did the job, that's exactly how it played out. I pulled it, brought it to the local dealer, they did the rebuild with kit, i reinstalled. no idea on final cost, as i was just the wrench on a buddy's bike, and he picked up the tab.

[PHMarvin]

Just because you Mr. Deilenberger and Mr Glaves think so doesn't make it religion.The $800 figure i was referring to was mentioned earlier.Thread # 7 by "code"

Hi, Karlheinz,
I know both Don Eilenberger and Paul Glaves. Both are reasonable or better (not professional) mechanics, as (I believe) am I. I would trust what either one says. I do not know you, therefore I would take what you say with a grain of salt.

In my location, with the closest dealer 275 miles away, if I weren't going somewhere where I could drop off a pump at a dealer to have new seals installed, I would probably order a new pump, install it and ride. Then, at my leisure, I would have new seals installed in my old pump and put it on the shelf for the next time I have weeping from the weep hole.

[41107]

Hi, Karlheinz,
I know both Don Eilenberger and Paul Glaves. Both are reasonable or better (not professional) mechanics, as (I believe) am I. I would trust what either one says. I do not know you, therefore I would take what you say with a grain of salt.

In my location, with the closest dealer 275 miles away, if I weren't going somewhere where I could drop off a pump at a dealer to have new seals installed, I would probably order a new pump, install it and ride. Then, at my leisure, I would have new seals installed in my old pump and put it on the shelf for the next time I have weeping from the weep hole.

Oh,believe me i like to read Paul's articles in the ON Mag. and also his and Don's comments and suggestion here on the forum. Mostly all very good advise!
I just had the impression that Don was trying to discourage a pump rebuild other then a dealer (stealer).Yes and I also understand that for some this is a task not to mess with from a difficulty stand point.For those the dealer or someone that is willing to help would be their only choice. Good Wrenching!

[chuck_donahue]

I have done probably over thirty of them, never bought a pump, or housing. Had maybe two leak after getting them back on bike. Newer seal design is better. Yes buy the tool to set seal depth on shaft, (its not rocket science). My worry would be your ability to get all of the air out of the system and pressure test after done. Estimated price here at my shop $300.00-400.00 (complete bike)

Well the pump inside where the seal goes on my 85 k100rs was pitted. At the time (about a year ago) a rebuild kit was $121 the complete pump was $333.

for $212 more everything was brand new. 45 min to put it back together, and I didn't have to give the bmw mechanic $35 to put in the new seal

oh and you may want to replace your oil sight glass too if antifreeze got in your oil

[deilenberger]

Oh,believe me i like to read Paul's articles in the ON Mag. and also his and Don's comments and suggestion here on the forum. Mostly all very good advise!
I just had the impression that Don was trying to discourage a pump rebuild other then a dealer (stealer).
Your impression is exactly right. I would discourage this (and sometimes other DIY's) for several reasons:

1. The skill level of the person posting (and this isn't a slam) may indicate to me they aren't that experienced with this sort of problem. In this case - the OP asked if a special tool was needed, and if he should take it to a shop. I think he might be well advised to - based on his question.

2. Sometimes it doesn't make economic sense to rebuild a part if the new part isn't exorbitantly priced, and the chances of having an unsuccessful rebuild using somewhat expensive parts is fairly high.

Some brake parts fall in this category for me, and the K bike water pump falls in this category. While some people apparently have great luck rebuilding them, my experience hasn't been that great, Brian Curry's experience (and Brian doesn't participate here - but he's known for being thrifty and skilled with a wrench) leads him to recommending buying a new one, and Paul Glaves - who has wrench abilities way beyond the average DIY'er suggests buying a new one might be a good idea.

3. The person who CAN rebuild one well, and repeatedly do the job is probably not someone who would be asking the question here. Which combines 1 & 2.


Yes and I also understand that for some this is a task not to mess with from a difficulty stand point.For those the dealer or someone that is willing to help would be their only choice. Good Wrenching!

One other comment - calling the dealer a "stealer" when we're discussing having them do a mechanical job that they have been trained to do, have bought the special tools to do it, and have mechanics on staff who will do it simply seems unfair to me.

An old saying says - If you want to make a small fortune as a motorcycle dealer start with a large fortune - and is really fairly true. There are MANY fine BMW dealers who not only are enthusiasts, but also scrupulously honest - to imply otherwise is a real slap across their faces and IMHO unfair.

Certainly a DIY'er can do it for less money - but the DIY'er isn't supporting a shop, staff, parts inventory, property expenses, insurance and all the other costs that put dealers out of business.