Valve Tube Leaking and Lifters Clicking

[wchargis]

HELP!!!!!

I had my 1971 R75/5 takien to my mechanic to stop a leak on the forward outborad valve tube. It was leaking at the outboard part of the tube (closest to the valve cover).

After getting advise here and other places it seemed like a simple fix--replace the o-ring and I should be good to go. Well after two weeks in the shop (due to the shop being busy getting foolk ready for the Rally) i got the bike back.

During my first ride my front of my right boot was covered in oil. I looked under the bike and sure enough the leak was comming from the same place.

As is was riding back to my house i heard a clicking noise that I could not put my finger on until I parked by bike. I Kept the bike in nuetral and went around the bike looking to identify the sound. It was coming from under my valve cover.

What is going on?? I was told at the shop that they replaced all four of the o-rings that are on both ends of the tubes. I was concerned becasue I notives the valeve cover gasket did not look like it had been replaced or changed--Is that possible??

What do you all recommend I do??????

Cheers

[20774]

It's not really necessary to replace the gasket when removing the valve covers. Maybe a paid shop would/should, but as a general rule it's not necessary.

Before I took it back, I'd do a quick check of the valve clearances to see if you can identify the source of the clicking. If they're super wide, I'd wonder about the quality of the shop. Not sure if the valve covers are symmetrical, but look for fresh marks on the inside. I would imagine that the clearance between the moving parts and the inside of the cover is fairly small. Also, see if the rocker blocks can be moved up and down easily when each cylinder is at TDC on it's compression stroke. This could be a source of the sound.

They may also have not torqued the heads properly. If the shop is not competent in this somewhat simple job, I'd be leary about them putting a torque wrench to the head bolts.

But, since you invested in the shop, I think you have to see if they'll make it right. Otherwise, ask for some kind of refund or compensation and look elsewhere. From past posts, you're from Virginia. Anton Largiader is in Charlottesville.

[amiles]

I believe that this is a bit more complicated than an O ring. I seem to recall that the tube is fitted to the head with a temperature differential, head heated, tube cold & when they stabilize a good fit is had. Your tube may be damaged & need replacing. Some folks tap them towards the block to tighten those rubber seals while loosening them in the head. Take a look at last months ON about valve adjustments for a clue or two.

Regardless you paid them to fix it and they didn't. You should probably give them the benefit of the doubt and take it back THIS time. You may find that you need a better mechanic.

[Bill Burke]

What do you all recommend I do??????

As Kurt has suggested, take the bike to Anton and get things straightened out. The alternative is to contact the Air Marshall of the Airheads Beemer Club in your state and get hooked up with a knowledgeable airhead who can assist you in learning more about your machine.

[RandyB]

Did you recently switch to synthetic oil? If so, that may be your problem.

I am not sure if the valve covers on your model are different for each side. Look on the bottom middle for an L or R.

[oilywrench]

It has been my experience that the lastplace to take an airhead is the dealer. I have seen new bikes run through the dealer's shop in a day while an airhead will sit . Join the airheads take it to a tec day and leave knowing how to repair one more part of your bike and have fun in the meantime. The valve cover gaskets are reusable the head gaskets are not. as far as the ticking noise valves are probably out of adjustment not uncommon after reseating the head. check snowbums site all good info and more than you will ever need

[lkchris]

I am not sure if the valve covers on your model are different for each side. Look on the bottom middle for an L or R.

Makes no difference as regards leaking. It's just cosmetics.

[RandyB]

Makes no difference as regards leaking. It's just cosmetics.

I thought it might make a difference in the racket it was making.

[GeorgeRyals]

Wchargis, there are no o-rings associated with the pushrod tubes. There are pushrod tube seals between the tubes and the engine block. Your description sounds like the tube in the head (closest to the valve cover) is leaking, not the one in the cylinder.
I suggest before YOU do anything to fix this, go back to the shop. It sounds like they assumed that the pushrod tube seals next to the block were leaking and replaced them. The noise is probably where they rushed the valve adjustment.

[crazydrummerdude]

I thought it might make a difference in the racket it was making.

I've read several times that it's a-ok to have them switched around from a functional view.. I even remember a guy with two L (or was it R?) covers. The difference is the slight angle of those "horizontal" lines on the outside.

But, although some say "tappy valves are happy valves," if the sound just appeared, I would (or you should have the shop) check cylinder stud torque(s) and valve adjustment, or have them check it twice if they tear it back down again.

[20774]

there are no o-rings associated with the pushrod tubes.

I think what's being talked about here are the o-rings at the outward ends of the stud tubes where the rockers blocks sit. Anton talks about it on his website:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/rockers/

[RandyB]

I've read several times that it's a-ok to have them switched around from a functional view.. I even remember a guy with two L (or was it R?) covers. The difference is the slight angle of those "horizontal" lines on the outside.

But, although some say "tappy valves are happy valves," if the sound just appeared, I would (or you should have the shop) check cylinder stud torque(s) and valve adjustment, or have them check it twice if they tear it back down again.

I try not to overthink these things. Left is left....:laugh

I adjusted my valves so the next size larger feeler gauge wouldn't fit. Runs great and now the valves sound like a sewing machine instead of two skeletons fornicating on a tin roof.

[535is]

I've read several times that it's a-ok to have them switched around from a functional view.. I even remember a guy with two L (or was it R?) covers. The difference is the slight angle of those "horizontal" lines on the outside.
That would be me. Had two "Rechts" valve covers for a couple of years and never had a hint of a functional problem. But earlier this summer, I sprang for $20 to get a used "Links" cover. Now, you'd never know ... ;)

[AnnapolisAirhead]

I think what's being talked about here are the o-rings at the outward ends of the stud tubes where the rockers blocks sit. Anton talks about it on his website:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/rockers/

If that is the case, and the shop is inexperienced working on Airheads I'd have Anton look at it or a tech day. Those o-rings are critical to allow oil to travel along the upper studs to the valve train. If clogged (or they improvise with gooping sealant there), that might explain the tapping amongst other things mentioned.

[GeorgeRyals]

20774, The "outer" o-rings force the oil to continue into the rocker shafts to oil the rocker arms. They are also inside the rocker covers and even if missing would not cause a leak on the outside of the engine.

[amiles]

The tubes are the return path for lubricating oil from the valve gear in the heads back to the crankcase as well as containing the push rods. The oil supply is via the upper cylinder studs to the valve gear.

[20774]

20774, The "outer" o-rings force the oil to continue into the rocker shafts to oil the rocker arms. They are also inside the rocker covers and even if missing would not cause a leak on the outside of the engine.

George -

I'll have to admit that I've never been inside one of these earlier heads. But the caption on Anton's site showing the o-rings says "The /5 posts had sleeves and O-rings to seal the exposed stud tubes." From that description, it sounds like that the o-rings are needed to prevent oil from getting around the stud tubes to outside the heads. Are the stud tubes cast into the head or are they inserted with interference fit? If they're cast, no need for any sealing or an o-ring. If they're physically inteserted, wouldn't there be a path to the outside and the o-ring is another barrier against that?

From Anton's picture, I don't see how the o-rings "force the oil" into the rocker shafts. The o-ring is at a joint between the stud tube and the head...no where near where the oil migrates in the stud tube.

[GeorgeRyals]

"The /5 posts had sleeves and O-rings to seal the exposed stud tubes." Did you not notice that the sleeves and o-rings in that photo are INSIDE the rocker cover? I'll say it again, even if the o-rings are missing, any oil leaking is INSIDE THE ROCKER COVER AND WILL NOT LEAK ON YOUR BOOT. The o-ring is under the sleeve is to prevent the oil from spewing out that joint rather than continuing along inside the sleeve into the rocker shaft support block and into the rocker shaft, then to the bushing the rocker 'rocks" on. There are no "stud tubes". There are simply holes drilled through the heads for the four studs. There are two short tubes shrink fitted in each head for the pushrods to pass through the heads. These tubes sometimes leak to the outside world. (I believe this is what the original post is about, even though the poster called them valve tubes)These tubes are sealed to the cylinder by the head gasket, NO O-RING AT EITHER END. Each cylinder has two long pushrod tubes shrink fitted into the cylinder to to cover the pushrods as they go to the lifters in the block. The block end is sealed from the outside world with rubber pushrod tube seals. These pushrod tubes(short ones in the head and long ones from cylinder to block) are also the return path for the oil going to the rocker arms. There are no o-rings associated with these tubes.

[20774]

Did you not notice that the sleeves and o-rings in that photo are INSIDE the rocker cover? I'll say it again, even if the o-rings are missing, any oil leaking is INSIDE THE ROCKER COVER AND WILL NOT LEAK ON YOUR BOOT. The o-ring is under the sleeve is to prevent the oil from spewing out that joint rather than continuing along inside the sleeve into the rocker shaft support block and into the rocker shaft, then to the bushing the rocker 'rocks" on.

George -

Yes, I did notice that the sleeves/o-rings are on the inside of the valve cover. I think all of us knew that.

I point out the o-rings at the base of the studs because, from what I've read, these o-rings DO seal oil from getting to the outside. Anton said as much on an Airhead list posting a couple of years ago:

"The rocker block O-rings are necessary because they keep oil from migrating between the aluminum of the head and the steel stud tube. Oil which goes through here ends up outside, since your tubes are not fully encased in aluminum like later ones were."

He was responding to a similar question on an early R60/5 head.

I know that these tubes are inserted into the early heads and not cast in as the later ones were. Cast-in means no way for anything to slip past. Shrunk fit means there is a path to the outside, hence the o-rings from my point of view.

The original poster said "I was told at the shop that they replaced all four of the o-rings that are on both ends of the tubes." What I read into that was the four o-rings at the outboard ends of the stud tubes. Indeed, his bike has these four o-rings. Maybe I'm reading in too much. He said o-rings at both ends which doesn't really make sense. I don't believe the upper studs got the small o-rings on the early models. And the pushrod tube seals aren't really o-rings.

And if I've interpreted Anton's quoted post correctly, a missing o-ring in this spot can possibly allow oil to migrate between the steel tube and aluminum head to the outside, thus oil on the rider's boot. I don't fully understand your description of the o-ring and the job it is doing. Maybe we're talking two different sets of o-rings.

I'll state again, I've not been inside an early /5 head before. I also have read your posts on this and other forums and you seem to have a good knowledge of these bikes...you have enough of them to demonstrate that knowledge. I have also tried to read numerous other posts over the past many years to gain more understanding of bikes other than mine.

If I'm still missing the boat, then I'm sorry for offering my thoughts. As Emily Litella of SNL fame was often heard to say, "Never mind."